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Rainbownaga
2009-11-22, 10:39 PM
As a random idea, i was wondering whether it would be possible to have a commoner lich. By taking a feat from complete arcane (or having charisma 10 and being a gnome) you meet the criteria for item creation feats, but you still need to be able to cast spells to qualify to make a phylactory.

You don't appear to need to cast spells at caster level 11, just have both caster level 11 and the ability to cast spells. So is it possible, or do you need to take a dip in adept to make it work?

Darcand
2009-11-23, 02:58 AM
That makes me picture the cover of Pratchett's Reaper Man.

BobVosh
2009-11-23, 04:21 AM
Level 11 gnome commoner lich....

My mind is boggled. Congratulations.

Yuki Akuma
2009-11-23, 04:53 AM
Spell-like abilities don't count as spells for item creation.

Or for qualifying for anything. They aren't spells.

Also, the caster level for gnome spell-like abilities is always 1 - unless they're a Gnome Illusionist, in which case it's equal to their Wizard level.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-23, 06:41 AM
As a random idea, i was wondering whether it would be possible to have a commoner lich. By taking a feat from complete arcane (or having charisma 10 and being a gnome) you meet the criteria for item creation feats, but you still need to be able to cast spells to qualify to make a phylactory.

You don't appear to need to cast spells at caster level 11, just have both caster level 11 and the ability to cast spells. So is it possible, or do you need to take a dip in adept to make it work?

You could be a Lich Wizard who used disjunction on an artifact and lost all spellcasting, but that still required you to at one time a wizard.

Prime32
2009-11-23, 07:00 AM
You could have wandered into a wizard's lichification ritual at just the wrong time. The wizard can't kill you because he went to great lengths to make his phylactery indestructible before activating it. :smalltongue: He may force you to work for him though.

charl
2009-11-23, 07:27 AM
Well, you could always play as a dragon with commoner levels. That would give you access to the required spellcasting. :smallbiggrin:

MickJay
2009-11-23, 08:15 AM
"Pay me 5cp for shoveling this dung or I'll eat you and your family" :smallbiggrin:

deuxhero
2009-11-23, 02:23 PM
Spell-like abilities don't count as spells for item creation.

Or for qualifying for anything. They aren't spells.

Also, the caster level for gnome spell-like abilities is always 1 - unless they're a Gnome Illusionist, in which case it's equal to their Wizard level.

Really? I've seen an Artificer guide recommend gnome as a race for Predestination

Stegyre
2009-11-23, 02:53 PM
Spell-like abilities don't count as spells for item creation.
That's explicitly not correct: by RAW, an item prerequisite can be met by an appropriate SLA:
SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#prerequisites):

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.


Or for qualifying for anything. They aren't spells.
That's sometimes true and sometimes not. There are specific rules for when an SLA will or will not meet a requirement. (See, e.g., CArc 72.) For a lich, "The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher." By RAW, "caster level x," may be satisfied with an SLA CL, so the SLA CL will satisfy both the lich requirement and the Craft Wondrous Item prerequisite.


Also, the caster level for gnome spell-like abilities is always 1 - unless they're a Gnome Illusionist, in which case it's equal to their Wizard level.
That's the real kicker: I believe there are ways to raise the CL of an SLA, but it can't be readily raised from 1 to 11. It might make an interesting exercise to see how high someone could raise it. One way would be to take dragonmarks (ECF): Least, Lesser and Greater Dragonmark feats have only house and skill level requirements, which a commoner could meet. Greater Dragonmarks give a character's dragonmark SLAs CL 10, plus any ranks in the dragonmark heir prestige class (which is also pretty easy to qualify for). A commoner 10 / DMH 1 would have CL 11 SLAs.

For that matter, a commoner 4 / DMH 4 would have CL 14 SLAs: go forth and prosper, my undead minion! (But I've no idea where he's going to come up with the 120,000 for the phylactery.)

hamishspence
2009-11-23, 02:59 PM
My guess is that the two get applied separately.

Lets say you're a factotum. You cast spells as spell-like abilities. You have a caster level. Do you count as being "able to cast spells"?

or, if you're a Warlock, or some other spell-like ability user.

If you have 1 level in a class that grants you the ability to cast spells, then, even if your actual caster level is for spell-like abilities, you'd qualify.

So, an 11th level Warlock couldn't become a lich.

But an 11th level Warlock/1st level wizard, could.

I think Complete Arcane states that Caster Level, and "Ability to cast spells" are two separate requirements- a warlock qualifies for PRCs that demand Caster Level, but not those that require Ability To Cast Spells.

Stegyre
2009-11-23, 03:20 PM
I think Complete Arcane states that Caster Level, and "Ability to cast spells" are two separate requirements- a warlock qualifies for PRCs that demand Caster Level, but not those that require Ability To Cast Spells.
I think you're right: I stand corrected. CArc speaks in terms of "able to cast spells of level x," while the lich requirement is "able to cast spells," but I'd be hard-pressed to argue a meaningful distinction between those two terms. :smallsmile:

hamishspence
2009-11-23, 03:22 PM
Which is not to say that the basic rule can't be waived if the DM is feeling generous.

Still, commoners should probably arise as something else. There are a lot of undead out there, some of which retain full intelligence.

Stegyre
2009-11-23, 03:29 PM
Well, my understanding was that most commoners arise as part of the wightopocolypse . . . and they don't need to handle any of the spell-casting, at all. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2009-11-23, 03:33 PM
I wonder what class Koschei the Deathless would be? From what I can tell, he was one of the earlier "lich-type" fictional characters- stores his soul away, thus ensuring he keeps coming back when slain.

Thurbane
2009-11-23, 09:24 PM
With the right combination of feats (ones that grant SLAs) and items (Rings of Spell Storing, Wands + UMD), a Commoner could have someone turn them Necropolitan, and they could do a pretty passable impersonation of a lich.

holywhippet
2009-11-23, 10:00 PM
How exactly are you planning to implement such a thing? As a DM or as a player? As a DM, dropkick the requirements out the window. Say the commoner came across some kind of cursed artifact that made them into a lich.

As a player you are looking at a highly useless creation - a lich without any spellcasting powers.

Or is this just a thought exercise?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-23, 10:01 PM
Thought exercise, I'm sure. Though I'm going to use this when I DM.

hamishspence
2009-11-24, 03:51 AM
A lich with combat power but no spellcasting power may make a quite formidable enemy- if they have good abilities in other things.

The problem with in being a commoner, is commoners tend to be bad at everything.

Unless you are giving it the Chicken Infested flaw.

Khatoblepas
2009-11-24, 07:26 AM
Koschei the Deathless, Paranoid and Impossible to kill.

Human Lich Commoner 1/Survivor 5/Green Star Adept 9

1) Apprentice (Spellcaster/Anything with Use Magic Device and Spellcraft)
B) Magical Training
F: Chicken Infested) Precocious Apprentice
3) Combat Casting
6) Practiced Spellcaster
9) Craft Wondrous Item
12) Obtain Familiar

Koschei's Bootknife: +1 Skillful Bootknife, optionally hidden in his foot with a scroll of Absorb Weapon. (Breaks the rules over one's knee, but I had to get that BAB SOMEHOW.)

Koschei's Phylactery: An egg. It is enchanted with an at-will Control Body, keyed to Koschei himself. The caster is whoever holds the egg. Koschei cannot cast any spells while his phylactery is held by another person.

This guy has so many passive defences it's ridiculous. He also only has 2 level 0 spells and 1 level 2 spell per day, So he's definitely not the most powerful spellcaster in the world, but he probably could be a challenge to a level 7-9 party, if just because he has so many defences and doesn't die. Koschei should be found preying on young women.

Sliver
2009-11-24, 08:58 AM
The problem with in being a commoner, is commoners tend to be bad at everything.

Unless you are giving it the Chicken Infested flaw Epic Feat.

Fixed! Chicken Infested is not a flaw, it cannot be a flaw. Well, only if you use it with other commoners that have this flaw and the character has nothing to do with chickens except trying to make profit. With more then 1 commoner "flawed" that way, it is not possible to get profit, 'cuz you know someone will just give them away for free.. It is not a flaw.