PDA

View Full Version : [D&D 3.5] Making a Skillmonkey vs. Undead



Capricornus
2009-11-22, 11:16 PM
Hello all, I am playing in a campaign with some friends which is anti-Undead themed. I will be trying to construct a character to fill in the Search/Disable Device/Stealth hole that this party has. It's a Faerun campaign, starting at level 7, set in the environs around and to the North and East of Waterdeep. The campaign will be going to about L13

The party as it stands:
L7 CN Human Cleric of Tempus. Tends to buff himself and wade into melee with an Adamantine +1 Undead-Bane Battleaxe. Tank-ish.
L7 NG Elf Cleric of Istishia. More group buffing and healing than the other Cleric, but also wades into melee and mixes in some damaging spells and summoning. Feats are Turning-focused.
L7 NG Elf Druid. Feats are Summoning-focused, but also wildshapes and gets into combat and casts damage spells.

The other players are not very experienced, as it is maybe their second campaign. I've been playing and DM for a lot longer and have a lot more books.

There was also a L4 Paladin/L3 Crusader, who was the main tank and also pretty excellent damage-dealer/damage mitigator/punishment sponge. This was my character before I decided to switch to a skill-type.

I am hoping for some help designing a character that can do the following:
- Stealth, as the party (apart from the Druid and her Cheetah) can't do that without Invisibility/Silence. A reason for considering Rogue.
- Search/Spot/Listen, as (apart from Spot and Listen from the Druid, they can't find diddly with search checks) which is another reason to go Rogue, and also Elf for the racial bonuses.
- Find and disable traps, as they tend to blunder into them. So, Rogue once again, or perhaps Scout.
- Open locks, as they now depend on brute force to bust down doors and open chests. So, Rogue again.
- Knowledge Dungeoneering. Not a priority, but something they lack.
- Deal damage to/deal with Undead. Something my previous character was quite good at most of the time. I am going to use a custom magic item to allow constant Grave Strike, so I can sneak attack Undead, so that can be covered. Overcoming other DR types will be important. Good, Silver, Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing are all types that are an issue when dealing with Undead.
- Survive the frequent negative energy/ability damage/ability drain/energy drain/disease Undead throw out all the time. A big concern since Rogues do not have good Fort saves...
- Arcane casting. Utility spells mainly. Why I'm looking at Rogue/Wizard or something.

So, I have been looking at Rogue. Seems like the most obvious. I've also been considering Rogue/Wizard, as I also like the idea of having access to lots of utility spells, but can I depend on UMD instead? Will taking levels of Rogue and Wizard hobble me too much?

I have access to any book necessary, including Magic Item Compendium. I'd prefer to restrict racial choices to the Races of Faerun book, but am not averse to using the Races of... books for substitution levels. Am considering Elf or maybe Halfling. I would like to avoid Tome of Battle and Psionics for this character.

Comments, suggestions, assistance all greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-22, 11:35 PM
You might want to consider Unseen seer (CMag or CArc) or Arcane trickster (DMG), they both advance spellcasting AND give some sneak attack dice, the unseen seer is more recomended.

Personally I don't like Unseen seer because it makes too much enphasis en divination magic (you cast divinations spell at higher CL but spells from others schoos are casted at a lower CL); and in the campaings I play we don't use divination magic that much.

On the other hand there is the base class Factotum (Dungeonscape) it has all the class skills and the ability to cast spells form the wiz/sor spell list as spell-like abilities.

Edit: If you are using Faerunian races why don't you use the strongheart halfling.

Dexam
2009-11-23, 01:03 AM
Straight levels in Beguiler (PHBII) as a Sun Elf will give you 90% of what you want - although you'll want to take a one level dip into a PrC to delay Advanced Learning and pick up Shadow Conjuration for the utility goodness. Alternatively, play a Gnome Beguiler and get into the Shadowcraft Mage PrC as soon as possible.

Reasons for choosing Beguiler:

- Stealth, as the party (apart from the Druid and her Cheetah) can't do that without Invisibility/Silence. A reason for considering Rogue.
This, in spades.


- Search/Spot/Listen, as (apart from Spot and Listen from the Druid, they can't find diddly with search checks) which is another reason to go Rogue, and also Elf for the racial bonuses.
This, also in spades.


- Find and disable traps, as they tend to blunder into them. So, Rogue once again, or perhaps Scout.
Beguilers get Trapfinding at level 1 and Search and Disable Device are class skills.


- Open locks, as they now depend on brute force to bust down doors and open chests. So, Rogue again.
Why bother when you can cast Knock several times a day as Beguiler?


- Knowledge Dungeoneering. Not a priority, but something they lack.
As Intelligence is your primary ability, take one or two cross-class ranks and you've got a pretty good chance of making the DC.


- Deal damage to/deal with Undead. Something my previous character was quite good at most of the time. I am going to use a custom magic item to allow constant Grave Strike, so I can sneak attack Undead, so that can be covered. Overcoming other DR types will be important. Good, Silver, Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing are all types that are an issue when dealing with Undead.
This is the where the Beguiler is lacking - it's not a damage dealing class and their spells can be a bit restricted when it comes to undead. However, they have a wide selection of illusions that will work on undead, as well as Slow, the ever-useful Glitterdust, or buff your party with Haste, Invisibility, Displacement, or Mage Armour for those pesky incorporeal undeads.


- Survive the frequent negative energy/ability damage/ability drain/energy drain/disease Undead throw out all the time. A big concern since Rogues do not have good Fort saves...
Not usually a problem, because if you're playing it right they shouldn't even notice you - and you should be avoiding melee combat. However, if it's a concern, max out Use Magic Device and invest in scrolls of Death Ward or wands of Lesser Restoration.


- Arcane casting. Utility spells mainly. Why I'm looking at Rogue/Wizard or something.
Once again, Beguilers have a nice selection of utility spells, especially if you get Shadow Conjuration for Advanced Learning. Anything else can be covered with UMD and wands or scrolls.

Check out the Beguilers Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872218/_The_New_Beguiler_Handbook__2008)for more information.

erikun
2009-11-23, 01:15 AM
Right off hand, a Rogue 1/Ranger X comes to mind, with undead as a favored enemy. You'll want some anti-undead weapons, and I believe there is a Death Ward-like enchantment for armor.

Of course, a cleric with the right domains might work too, if you can find one that grants search and disable device as class skills.

Book Wyrm
2009-11-23, 01:41 AM
Scout 3/Ranger 4 with the Swift Hunter feat from Complete Scoundrel and Favored Enemy Undead. Continue with Ranger to level 20.

Theres also a Ranger alternate class feature from Dungeonscape that drops track and swift tracker for Trapfinding and Disable Device as a class skill.

Ranger has a good Fort save, so that should help with the Undead. Ranger also gets Knowledge Dungeoneering, Spot, Listen, Search, Hide, and Move Silently. Those three levels of Scout should help since it gets 8+int skill points, just make sure to invest in Int to cover the ranger's slightly lower 6+int skill points.

The only thing this is missing is Arcane casting, although you'll eventually get divine casting through Ranger which has some utility spells.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-23, 02:37 AM
Rogue with the Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape.

Eldariel
2009-11-23, 04:50 AM
You might want to consider Unseen seer (CMag or CArc) or Arcane trickster (DMG), they both advance spellcasting AND give some sneak attack dice, the unseen seer is more recomended.

Personally I don't like Unseen seer because it makes too much enphasis en divination magic (you cast divinations spell at higher CL but spells from others schoos are casted at a lower CL); and in the campaings I play we don't use divination magic that much.

On the other hand there is the base class Factotum (Dungeonscape) it has all the class skills and the ability to cast spells form the wiz/sor spell list as spell-like abilities.

Edit: If you are using Faerunian races why don't you use the strongheart halfling.

Unseen Seer is excellent all the way; you can use this feat called "Practiced Spellcaster" that you'd want to have anyways ('cause you lose casting levels to Rogue) to negate the Divination Spell Power's drawbacks.

I personally love Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5 (can finalize with Arcane Trickster too, and pick Wizard 5 for Spontaneous Divination) for skills + spells. Unseen Seer could even get you Gravestrike in class if you feel like SAing. Spellwarp Sniper happens to also have good skillpoints and provides you with the ability to Spellwarp among others Frost Breath for great justice (Dazes people with damage to boot, no save; great vs. anything since just about nothing is immune to Daze).


That said, yeah, Rogue with Penetrating Strike works just fine. Death's Ruin from Complete Champion is another option, but given Penetrating Strike works vs. anything, it's probably preferable.

Ashiel
2009-11-23, 07:05 AM
Right off hand, a Rogue 1/Ranger X comes to mind, with undead as a favored enemy. You'll want some anti-undead weapons, and I believe there is a Death Ward-like enchantment for armor.

I agree with Erikun. Rangers get a lot of skill points like rogues, and you'll end up with a strong fortitude or reflex. Eventually dual wielding disrupting ghost touch weapons would make for some solid undead smackdown. Also, disruption slings could help in a pinch, or a returning disruption throwing hammer. Just ideas. Now using the SRD only, I would say...

Warning: The following could be seen as extremely cheesy and potentially a blatant abuse of the rules. If this offends you, stop reading now.

Play a human or a race with favored class: Ranger.
Rogue 1 / Fighter 1 / Cleric 2 / Monk 2 / Paladin 3 / Ranger 11.


1st Level: Rogue, gaining trapfinding, sneak attack, and a +2 reflex bump.
2nd Level: Ranger, gaining favored enemy (undead), track, wild empathy, as well BAB, Fort, and Reflex bump.
3rd Level: Cleric with the Darkness and Nobility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm) domains (for an effective night-eyed hunter, and the first steps into a paladin-like feel with your moral power), picking up turn undead (possibly to fuel divine feats), and gaining a +2 bump to fortitude and will.
4th Level: Monk for bonus feat, flurry of blows, and improved unarmed strike. Also nets you a +2 bump to all your saving throws.
5th Level: Monk 2 for a +1 bump to your BAB, Saves, and Evasion.
6th Level: Paladin 1 for detect evil and maybe smite, as well as a BAB and fortitude bump.
7th Level: Paladin 2 for divine grace and lay on hands, BAB bump, and fortitude bump.
8th Level: Paladin 3 for aura of courage and divine health, BAB bump and a +1 bump to Ref and Will.
9th Level: Ranger 2 for combat style, and a +1 bump to BAB, Fort, and Ref.
10th Level: Cleric 2 for a +1 BAB, and +1 Fort and Will bump.
11th+ Levels: Ranger 3-11, bumping BAB, Fort, and Ref the most, while improving favored enemy (undead) and picking up favored enemy (magical beasts), and perhaps (aberrations), endurance, animal companion (you'll loose more dogs this way), swift tracker, woodland stride (makes fighting in old cemeteries easier), and a combat style mastery.

At the end you should have the following benefits:
Average HP: 95.5 + Con
BAB: +17
Saves (Fort/Ref/Will): +18/+12/+10 before modifiers or divine grace
Skill Points: 114 points baseline
Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6, Evasion, Divine Grace, Fear Immunity, Disease Immunity, Lay on Hands, Detect Evil at will, Smite Evil 1/day, Blind Fight, Monk Unarmed Strike, Fighter Bonus Feat, Monk Bonus Feat, Turn Undead, Animal Cohort, Endurance, Track, Favored Enemy (Undead) +6, Favored Enemy (other) +2, Favored Enemy (other) +2, Swift Tracker, Woodland Stride, Combat Style I, II, and III.

A few key points about this build:
The character will be brutally effective at finding undead of all kinds using Detect Evil, Track/Swift Tracker, and then dealing with them with through strait combat.
The build's incredibly high fortitude save will serve well against negative levels, poisons, and death effects that are so common among undead. This is augmented by a decent charisma (a mere +3 from magic items at higher levels) can bring your base fortitude higher to +21 or higher before factoring in your constitution or +resistance items.
You can pick up divine feats such as Divine Vengence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineVengeance) using the cleric's turning you picked up, which helps in your anti-undead warrior shtick.
With trapfinding combined with the ranger's search you can deal with traps very effectively without being a strait rogue. If you want, see if you can find any feats that make disable device a permanent class skill, but if not, try to pick up a few +skill items in a big city or from your party's item crafter. MW Tools might be ideal for a +2 bonus to your checks.
You should also have enough feats to do about what you want with, between the monk feat (improved grapple helps against vampires who like to bite), the fighter feat (always nice), and your combat style, human feat, plus standard feats.
You can serve as a backup healer and buffer with wands and the like. Your aura of courage is also likely to be helpful to the group as a whole. Your nobility domain is mostly for the 1/day inspiring mechanic which works great for making a gritty stand against the various evils.

Since you're playing in the forgotten realms, you may want to discuss with your DM if he will allow you to take the darkness/nobility domains if you can't find a deity you like that grants them. If not, feel free to pick up something else that fits your character best. In any campaign other than the forgotten realms this wouldn't be an issue (since by default clerics may choose 2 domains of their choice), but I figured I'd make mention of it.

If you're set on playing an elf or halfling, you could still get this to work with a little tweaking. For example: wood elves have favored class ranger, which is good enough for making the build work.

This has the side benefit of using nothing outside of the SRD, to make it much easier on you. That way you don't need to drag around various splat books and such. It's still totally open to various feats, spells, and items from splat books of course, but those are easier to deal with. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Also, if your campaign is only going to level 13, you may wish to go into ranger sooner than advised for early skill point boosts and their favored enemy, then begin into other classes. Don't class out of monk or paladin 'till you've got all the levels you want from them however.

Alex112524
2009-11-23, 07:36 AM
With trapfinding combined with the ranger's search you can deal with traps very effectively without being a strait rogue. If you want, see if you can find any feats that make disable device a permanent class skill, but if not, try to pick up a few +skill items in a big city or from your party's item crafter. MW Tools might be ideal for a +2 bonus to your checks.

Able Learner feat, all skills are bought at 1 skill point per level in-class OR cross-class, and if any class you have ever had has it as a class skill, you can buy it up to your character level +3. The feat is in Races of Destiny, page 150. Basically, any class skills remains a class skill forever, and cross class skills are easier to buy.

Ashiel
2009-11-23, 08:02 AM
Able Learner feat, all skills are bought at 1 skill point per level in-class OR cross-class, and if any class you have ever had has it as a class skill, you can buy it up to your character level +3. The feat is in Races of Destiny, page 150. Basically, any class skills remains a class skill forever, and cross class skills are easier to buy.

Thanks Alex. That feat is perfect. :smallbiggrin:
I had thought about Versatile from the Rokugan campaign setting (pick two skills to always be considered class skills, essentially), but your suggestion is much, much better, and would help out immensely for this particular build (which of course is intended to provide the ability to search/disable traps while being an effective anti-undead fighting type). Heck, for bonus points we could toss in UMD and dual wield us some holy avenger maces of disruption as a 20th level paladin proper. :smalltongue:

Alex112524
2009-11-23, 08:08 AM
Thanks Alex. That feat is perfect. :smallbiggrin:
I had thought about Versatile from the Rokugan campaign setting (pick two skills to always be considered class skills, essentially), but your suggestion is much, much better, and would help out immensely for this particular build (which of course is intended to provide the ability to search/disable traps while being an effective anti-undead fighting type). Heck, for bonus points we could toss in UMD and dual wield us some holy avenger maces of disruption as a 20th level paladin proper. :smalltongue:

Yeah, it is basically THE feat for multiclassing skill monkeys, bonus points if you start out as a 1st level human factotum with it, as *all* skills are permanently class skills for such a character, forever, and it grants trapfinding :smallbiggrin:

Ashiel
2009-11-23, 08:44 AM
Yeah, it is basically THE feat for multiclassing skill monkeys, bonus points if you start out as a 1st level human factotum with it, as *all* skills are permanently class skills for such a character, forever, and it grants trapfinding :smallbiggrin:

Hmmm, I really must look into this factotum more. I've heard many good things about this class (mostly in the form of hearing people who want to/love playing them). I have Dungeonscape and Cityscape which I picked up when I found them on an exceptionally good sale, but haven't perused the contents much.

I do know every skill is a class skill, which is crazy awesome. lol :smallbiggrin:

BooNL
2009-11-23, 09:24 AM
As mentioned Dungeonscape has a Ranger ACF that gives up Track (I think) for Trapfinding. You'll be more combat-focused than a rogue and you can stay single-classed.
Alternatively, a Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter is viable as well.

Ashiel, that build seems needlessly complicated and redundant...

dspeyer
2009-11-23, 09:32 AM
You might consider mixing in some swordsage late in your build. It's 6+int with a mediocre spell list. With able learner, that won't be a problem. It boosts your defenses (with diamond mind counters) and gives you lots of options for doing damage.

Andry
2009-11-23, 09:43 AM
You might also want to check out skullclan hunter a prestige classfrom the Miniatures Handbook. One of the abilities is called Sword of light which lets your full sneak attack count against undead.

Person_Man
2009-11-23, 09:47 AM
Have you considered the Skullclan Hunter PrC from the Miniatures Handbook?

Reqs: Any good, ability to Turn Undead, +2d6 Sneak Attack, Knowledge (relgion) 8 ranks. 7/10 BAB, 6 Skill points per level, d6 Hit Dice, Good Ref and Will Saves.

Over ten levels, you gain: +3d6 Sneak Attack, full Sneak Attack damage vs. Undead, the ability to Track Undead with Knowledge religion, Immunity to Fear (Undead only), Immunity to all disease, paralysis, ability drain, ability damage, and energy drain, permanent Protection from Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm), and any weapon you wield counts as Ghost Touch and ignores DR from Undead.

There are some huge benefits to this class. First, you rock the house against undead, a common enemy which is normally a big problem for Skill Monkey builds. You don't even have to qualify for Sneak Attack via flanking or whatnot, you just deal your total Sneak Attack damage against them on every attack. You're immune to many of the things that commonly kill PCs. Permanent Protection from Evil makes you immune to summoned creatures and many Enchantment effects. Immunity to ability damage means you never have to worry about a lot of common debuffs, and you can wear a Ring of X Ray Vision all day, making you an excellent scout.

The down side is that it's annoying to qualify for (I suggest Rogue 3/Cleric 1/Warblade 1 or something similar), and against non-undead, you're worse off then if you were a strait Rogue. But if you know the campaign is going to be Undead heavy, you can't get much better for a Skill Monkey.

Edit: NINJA'D!

BooNL
2009-11-23, 09:57 AM
Wouldn't a Swordsage/Cleric qualify as well? They have a stance that gives +2d6 sneak attack.

You'd have to pick the Kobold domain though to get trapfinding.

Ashiel
2009-11-23, 01:48 PM
Ashiel, that build seems needlessly complicated and redundant...

Well, if you think so, it probably is. However, I would ask why it's needlessly complicated an redundant. With the exception of evasion which is gained twice (monk & ranger) everything else about the build is about not only killing undead but surviving them, and you're loaded for bear. You're also decent at dealing with a variety of other situations through low level magic or x/day wands, the martial arts and grappling (with a good attack bonus too), you benefit your party (your aura vs fear).

The build is meant to make the character capable of surviving the hazards he is likely to face given an undead themed campaign. Even the low level undead such as wights and vampires hurt with their negative levels, and a strong fortitude will serve you well against them and ghouls. However, this particular build isn't just a one-trick-pony as it can survive a variety of things (evasion = good vs AoE damage like a lich's fireball), he can deal with traps effectively, and he gets a few extra favored enemies (magical beasts and aberrations are favorites, but something more specific can be good too). The fear immunity helps you to retain your cool against necromancers (cause fear, scare, fear as well mummies, dragons, etc) which could mean life or death for your party if breaking ranks could hurt you (and it can).

It also has a lot of extra tricks up its sleeve. For example, the smite evil likely wouldn't be used for more than an extra +2 or +3 on an attack once per day, but it's nice to have in a pinch. Lay on hands can be great for saving a downed ally (if only to stabilize them). The sneak attack isn't very good against undead, but when you're not fighting undead it's a nice average of +3 damage on your attacks when you can flank. You've got you a nice hunting buddy (your animal companion, likely a well armored riding dog) who can help you with that, or with summon nature's ally spells (via wands most likely), since you don't have to worry about them being killed by vampires (keep Rusty safe).

You'll never be as versatile as Batman (read: true spellcaster) but you'll definitely have a little something for every situation, and you're not pidgeon holed. You also have excellent saving throws to help you survive and a better than average BAB, cementing you firmly as a solidly as warrior - because at the end of the day you're a righteous evil-smacking guy who can fearlessly delve dungeons, spring traps, and laugh in the face of the lich overlord. :smallsmile:

I'm mostly curious about the redundant comment though. :smallconfused:

ericgrau
2009-11-23, 03:41 PM
Dip a single level into ranger for +2 to fort saves,+1 BAB, track and favored enemy (undead) damage that's slightly better than half a die of sneak attack. You could get more ranger levels if you want while still keeping your skills maxed (assuming you get them all as class skills from one of your classes), just pay double for disable device and open lock.

EDIT: Oh, and grab an undead bane weapon or two.

Capricornus
2009-11-24, 12:00 PM
Good suggestions, thank you all so far.

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 2 looks good. Strongheart Halfling (Bonus feat, small size look good, though I was liking the Lightfoot Halfling +1 to saves), Human (Bonus feat, Able Learner), or Elf of some variety (favored class: Wizard, sensory bonuses, weapon proficiencies, access to Elven Generalist substitution levels from Races of the Wild, though the Con penalty sucks).

I'm liking the Scout 3/Ranger 4 with the Swift Hunter Feat as well. If I could cram Knowledge: Religion in there for Knowledge Devotion, that could be lots of damage against Undead. Though I would both be missing utility casting of the Wizard and Open Lock/Disable Device. Of course, Able Learner could help with that, but the cross-class max ranks still apply.

Thoughts?

Capricornus
2009-11-25, 09:14 AM
Okay, I think I've settled on the Unseen Seer. Any opinions on Feats? (Am considering Knowledge Devotion, but don't know if that's strictly optimal compared to what else is out there.) Also, Strongheart Halfling or Sun Elf?