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Amurion
2009-11-22, 11:55 PM
I am going to be playing in a campaign where there is just me and another guy for players. The other guy wants to play a monk and I am having difficulties deciding what I should play to try to cover the other bases. Give me ideas people.

This is a D&D 3.5 campaign.

Thanks ;)

sambo.
2009-11-23, 12:04 AM
oof. i hope you're buffing the monk class at least a little.

for you, i'd suggest a druid or a cleric.

taltamir
2009-11-23, 12:05 AM
why not play 2 characters each?

Pyron
2009-11-23, 12:05 AM
why not play 2 characters each?

This is a good idea. Or try to go for a Gestalt campaign.

Zaq
2009-11-23, 12:07 AM
You have quite the dilemma here. Just about anything you play that would, indeed, "cover the bases" will totally overshadow the monk. This is bad enough in, say, a four-person party, but in a two-person party, when one player is <competent class> and the other is a monk... well, it's not going to be a lot of fun for your monk buddy.

That said, unless you DO play a competent class, well, your GM is going to have to throw you a lot of softballs. It's quite a puzzlement.

I think that your best bet is probably to play a buffmonster. A Cleric or a moderate-to-heavily optimized Bard would be a pretty nice choice, but again, you need to make sure that you're making your monk friend awesome, or else things are just not going to be all that fun.

Temotei
2009-11-23, 12:09 AM
I recommend a variant monk on the homebrew section. Or gestalt, as Pyron suggested.

Zovc
2009-11-23, 12:09 AM
I second "two characters each" or "gestalt" or "play a buffmonster."

Amurion
2009-11-23, 12:13 AM
To top things off, this will be this guys first game. He really doesn't know how the mechanics of everything work. I mean it sounds cool to have a bare fisted fighting maniac, but I don't think he knows what he is getting into as a monk. I was originally thinking druid, but now I am leaning more towards cleric or beguiler. Which ever way I can make it more fun for this guy the better. Heck as a cleric I may take vow of nonviolence/peace just so that things are focused more on the monk.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-23, 12:25 AM
You will need healing, caster support, and a tank.

Druid seems the only way to go.

You should also help him build the monk so that he doesn't make any critical mistakes.

Narazil
2009-11-23, 12:27 AM
You will need healing, arcane support, and a tank.

Druid seems the only way to go.

You should also help him build the monk so that he doesn't make any critical mistakes.
Cleric. Screw Arcane Support.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-23, 12:28 AM
That should read "caster support".

Temotei
2009-11-23, 12:28 AM
so that he doesn't make any critical mistakes.

Like make a monk! :smallbiggrin:

On a serious note...druid for you sounds good, for the above reasons. Cleric could do well, too. I personally don't like being nature-man, so I'd take the cleric. But that's just me.

Amurion
2009-11-23, 12:42 AM
How effective would a bard be? I've never actually played one of them.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-23, 12:56 AM
How effective would a bard be? I've never actually played one of them.

They can be made very effective in Melee.

Imagine this.

A 5th level bard.

Stats could be Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16

Feats would be : Snowflake Wardance, Song of the Heart, Weapon Finess

Spells known: Inspirational Boost, Alter Self

Item: Badge of Courage

Your Bab, Str, and Cha all add to your attack bonus.

You'd get +13 to attack with bite, and +11 to two attacks with your claws on a full attack action. Bite attack deals 1d6+7 damage, and the two claw attack deal 1d4+5 damage.

Your AC, assuming you wear a chain shirt, is 20.

Your Snowflake Wardance will last for a number of rounds equal to your ranks in Perform: Dance, and your Alter Self form lasts for 10 minutes per level.

This gets better if you optimize it more, or use Dragonfire Inspiration.

I think you can attack and maintain the bard song. If not, it runs out after 5 rounds.

So sit back and give the monk +4 to attack and damage. If things turn bad, cast Alter Self and head into melee yourself.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-11-23, 01:28 AM
First of all, try to convince him to play an Unarmed Swordsage instead. Tell him it's what the Monk class should have been. Instead of a generic everyone-gets-the-same-moves class, you can pick from a long list of fighting styles, each one with unique strikes, counters, and stances. Just to put things into perspective, a Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) would be at least as capable a combatant as a Monk character. A Druid's animal companion is almost guaranteed to pull more weight that a Monk both in and outside of combat.

Making a Bard focused on Inspire Courage would be a decent choice, stay single-classed if he sticks to Monk but go into Sublime Chord if he goes with Unarmed Swordsage. Go ahead and grab Wild Cohort, and even consider taking Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar (CW) for a Krenshar. At least that way you'll be a bit closer to a normal party on the number of actions you get each round. I'd use Silverbrow Human from Dragon Magic, take Dragonfire Inspiration and Melodic Casting, with two flaws for Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar. Get Song of the Heart at 3 and Improved Familiar at 6. If you're good-aligned take Exalted Companion to get a Celestial version of your Wild Cohort, and have it take Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, or if you're not good-aligned pick up a level of Mindbender and take Mindsight.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-23, 01:30 AM
First of all, try to convince him to play an Unarmed Swordsage instead. Tell him it's what the Monk class should have been. Instead of a generic everyone-gets-the-same-moves class, you can pick from a long list of fighting styles, each one with unique strikes, counters, and stances. Just to put things into perspective, a Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) would be at least as capable a combatant as a Monk character. A Druid's animal companion is almost guaranteed to pull more weight that a Monk both in and outside of combat.


Giacomo, a longstanding proponent of the greatness of monks, once took up a challenge to fight various animal companions. He went through a few, but ended up losing to a lion played by Talic, I believe.

Not sure of the exact story, but losing to a class feature of another class should not happen...

Mtg_player_zach
2009-11-23, 01:42 AM
I like monks...well, I like punching things.....So I guess I like taking one level of monk. :P

sambo.
2009-11-23, 01:48 AM
...losing to a class feature of another class should not happen...

Monks: sucking up DnD designers hate since 1ed.

there are plenty of workable monk fixes around, some of them might even be considered comparable to tier 2 core builds.

pretty much all of them involve radically reducing their Multi-Ability-Dependence.

i havn't played a RAW monk since 1ed. from memory, that character lasted all of a session and a half.

Darcand
2009-11-23, 02:45 AM
My advise is play a rogue. You certainly won't be buffing, but a little UMD will take care of healing. More importantly, you can function similiarly. The game will take on a more diplomatic/surgical strike & stealth tone, and You will have less worry about outshining Him.

This will help the DM too, as having similiar characters allows him to better design encounters around the party (i.e. focusing on spot checks and sense motives rather then AC and will saves.) Alot of people forget that if you completely lack a means of doing something it really just saves your DM from having to account for it.

Amurion
2009-11-23, 10:59 AM
How would a Beguiler work, similar class features to a rogue and sorc. Would it be too overshadowing for the monk? If so, would vow of peace help to limit that overshadowing or would that just be killing the beguiler?

root9125
2009-11-23, 11:08 AM
You should also help him build the monk so that he doesn't make any critical mistakes.

Like... playing a monk? Just throwing that out there.

edit: Dangit! I knew the joke was too easy. It got made YESTERDAY. :smallfurious:

Amurion
2009-11-24, 12:08 AM
Anybody have advice on potentially using a beguiler in this situation?

Temotei
2009-11-24, 12:33 AM
Like... playing a monk? Just throwing that out there.

edit: Dangit! I knew the joke was too easy. It got made YESTERDAY.

Bahaha! Trogdor strikes again! :smallbiggrin:

taltamir
2009-11-24, 12:41 AM
show him the unarmed swordsage, tell him it is a monk fix since they made monks too weak initially. :)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-24, 12:43 AM
Anybody have advice on potentially using a beguiler in this situation?

It would work... just keep in mind the strength disparity.

Sir Giacomo
2009-11-26, 02:10 PM
Giacomo, a longstanding proponent of the greatness of monks, once took up a challenge to fight various animal companions. He went through a few, but ended up losing to a lion played by Talic, I believe.

Not sure of the exact story, but losing to a class feature of another class should not happen...

Please Pharaoh's Fist. Do not continue to misquote this thing - and you should be sure of the exact story, since I already posted for you the
thread here recently. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7172683&postcount=56)
Again for everyone: it was a core rules grappling contest of 6th level characters against several opponents (cloaker, Troll and a dire lion in the end) which a monk I designed won.
No animal companions involved.

Now, for Amurion, some recommendations:

- if your fellow player plays for the first time, play core rules only. The swordsage is dependant on quite a few necessary houserules and also introduces the whole different ToB mechanics of combat maneuvers. Definitely more advanced stuff.
- You playing a beguiler (with the rest core) has the advantage of you both being able to be quite stealthy. On the other hand, the beguiler does not have that many good buff spells. Also remember that a monk is lawful, whereas the beguiler is more ... subtle. Depends on the style of campaign.
- having said that, a good fluff would be you playing a cleric and your friend a monk - you the caster/supporter role, the monk the fighter/scout role. (they could come from the same monastery/church). A druid with an animal companion basically either introduces the animal companion as a DMpc or you have to run both. Either way, I fear that a bit of playing time would be deducted from your beginning friend.
- the monk should try to go the high STR/stunning fist road at the beginning. It is much simpler to handle than the grappling rules (which normally are a good way to start a monk).
- as for the fist-fighting "maniac" part, you may also possibly recommend a barbarian focusing on gauntlet combat - but I'd guess that this would not be as strong a monk in unarmed combat.
Also, this kind of expectation suggests that a "vow of peace" may - apart from offering benefits - be a constant cause for roleplaying challenges. This may be interesting or slowing you down. Depends on the campaign type.

I can help stat out a 1st level monk, if you like (in case you start at that level, or higher in other cases).

- Giacomo

Eldariel
2009-11-26, 02:34 PM
Cloistered Cleric could cover it all, but frankly, Druid is better for the job especially from level 1; animal companion can do the tanking with some help from the Druid himself and Druid has solid spellcasting support and with small dip, could even take care of Trapfinding (though that's something Clerics get more easily through Kobold-domain).