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Jogi
2009-11-23, 12:24 AM
This class is based on the Legend of The Seeker series. No, I did not read the books, so beware: this entirely based on the series. Note that some things had to be changed so they could adapt to D&D.

I used the PrC templates the people use for the GiTP contests :smallcool:

Oh, also, im in kind of a hurry, so I probably forgot some mecanic details.

EDIT: This was originally intended to be PrC, but many people didn't thought it would fit as a PrC, so I made it a base class. Please, do note that english is not my native language, therefore there'll be many misspellings.

MORD'SITH

http://multipleverses.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/denna_05.jpg

"OBVIOUSLY I'VE BEEN TO EASY ON YOU!"
- Mistress Denna, while beating the Seeker

D'Hara is a powerfull nation, with vast, capable armies. Yet, even the most fearsome D'Haran trembles in the presence of a Mord'Sith - trained since childhood, taught to endure pain, torture, and to cause it, they are broken, pittyless souls. The Mord'Sith are elite warriors who fear none, deadly in many ways, cruel like few. Althought not impossible, it is unheard of a male Mord'Sith - the members of this class are trained by an order that takes only females.

Adventures: Althought they rarely show off, a Mord'Sith approaches most tasks with disdain. Upon confronted with a specially difficult challenge, she will use whatever means she can to successfully accomplish hear goals.
Characteristics: One of the most impressive capacities of a Mord'Sith is her resistance to pain - rigorous training makes them able to withstand that which would have others crawling in agonizing pain. Even though the Mord'Sith casts no spells, she can sometimes exert influence in others magic. As the Mord'Sith grow in power and experience, her abilities with the Agiel - a special weapon of the class - will increse, along with her capacity to withstand pain and influence magic.
Alignment: Their hard training requires discipline, and breaks all innocence and compassion in their souls. The Mord'Sith must be Lawful non-good - notice that later alignment changes will not cause her to lose her powers.
Religion: Most Mord'Sith revere no gods, althought some of them may follow dark deities. Many think of religion as a distraction, something that will make them soften their souls and make them vulnerable. Unlike evil Mord'Siths, good aligned ones see no problem in following a deity; in fact, redeemed members of this class seem to become very attached to their new deities, as a way to find comfort from their past.
Background: Typically, a Mord'Sith trains in one of the order's monasteries. Most of them were kidnapped from their families in their youth, and kept in conditions similar to that of prisioners. Inside the monastery, life is nothing but hard training and suffering.
Upon setting off on their own, most Mord'Sith see the world as a place full of weak, disgusting worms. They mantain strong bonds with their home-monasteries, and from time to time they are called back to receive a task from her superiors.
Mord'Sith tend to see themselves as allies (although that does not mean friends), but will not hesitate to remove those in their way.
Races: The order accepts only female human infants. Yet, circumstances may have that Mord'Siths of other races are trained - be it by the order or by an outcast member of the class. Nonetheless, most cultures in the world depise the Mord'Sith, treating them like vile killers.
Other Classes: Mord'Sith often seem to be ungrateful, tiranic and arrogant by other classes. Most of the time, they treat others as mere tools to their goals. However, should a Mord'Sith be loyal to someone, they will consider them as an equal, and work along very well.
Role: The Mord'Sith acts like a support combatant; she is not the one to be in the front line, but will be of good aid in meele combat. Additionally, she is probably one of the group's members that is most resistant to magic, which should prove usefull at many situations.

Game Rule Information
Abilities: Constition will increase the Mord'Sith's capacity to resist pain, as well as the amount of hit points. Strenght will help her in combat, and Wisdom will serve her well in both combat and resistance.

Class Skills
The Mord'Sith class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcane) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str) and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st level: (4+Int modifier)x4
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier

Hit Dice: d8

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2| Agiel, Endure, AC Bonus

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3| Agiel Combat Style

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3| Channel Pain

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4| Magic Mirror

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+6|

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+6|

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+7|

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+7|

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+9|

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+9|

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|
[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The Mord'Siths training include few weapons, but those that can be found anywhere. The weapons with which the Mord'Sith is proficient are the club, dagger, kama, quarterstaff, shuriken and agiel. They are proficient with no shields but can wear light armors.

Agiel: Upon becoming a Mord'Sith, one is given a pair of their tools to inflict pain: the Agiel is a club like weapon, covered in red leather. It might seem unfit for a weapon, but it's touch causes severe pain to anyone and may even harm them.
{table] Damage | Special
1d4 (x2, light weapon, bludgeoning) | Anyone whom the Agiel touches must pass a Fortitude saving throw (DC 12) or he will suffer an extra 2d6 lethal damage and become stunned for 1 round.[/table]
It is very, very rare to find anyone who can sell you an Agiel. Needless to say, they are expensive, and the price may be more than just gold.

Endure: The Mord'Sith's hard training teaches them to resist various things, ranging from rough agony enhancement effects. Therefore, at 1st level, a Mord'Sith receives a +1 morale bonus to Fortitude and Will saving throws. This bonus increases by one at the 5th level and every four levels thereafter.

AC Bonus: The constant need for focus makes the Mord'Sith alert. She receives a dodge bonus do AC equal to her Wisdom modifier. This bonus increases by 1 for every five levels in this class. It applies even when she is flat-footed. The bonus is lost if she is wearing medium or heavy armor, is immobilized, helpless, carries a shield or heavy load.

Channel Pain:

Magic Mirror:

Agiel Combat Style:

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PS: I will finish the class later, can't do it right now.

Masterclick
2009-11-23, 12:35 AM
I'm not very good on balance and other stuff, but it doesn't really make sense to me to have a PrC to be something you've been trained from childhood to do. I feel that PrC are something you pick up after you've gained experience and extends beyond what you normally learn from a class.

Temotei
2009-11-23, 12:38 AM
I'm not very good on balance and other stuff, but it doesn't really make sense to me to have a PrC to be something you've been trained from childhood to do. I feel that PrC are something you pick up after you've gained experience and extends beyond what you normally learn from a class.

Agreed. This should probably be changed to a base class. That, or make it available to 1st level females. If you think that's unbalanced, you could make a requirement one level of commoner...

EDIT: I'll be back for grammar and spelling errors. I AM THE GRAMMERADICATOR! :smalltongue:

Fako
2009-11-23, 12:46 AM
I'm not very good on balance and other stuff, but it doesn't really make sense to me to have a PrC to be something you've been trained from childhood to do. I feel that PrC are something you pick up after you've gained experience and extends beyond what you normally learn from a class.

Seconded. Childhood training/backstory is typically included in either a template or a base class. The requirement also prevents people who see your class from applying it to their existing characters...

I'm not too much for balance either, but the Magic Mirror abilities shoot balance in the face, scalp it, and prance around to show off their prize. As it stands, assuming I plan my character around entry early off and enter the class at level 6 (earliest option), I will have a level 10 character that is completely immune to magic. Doesn't matter the level, simply doesn't work... unless it's 8th level, which is left out, but I'm guessing that's a typo...

My suggestion is to expand this into a base class, or allow it as substitution levels for another class of your liking (such as rogue), as well as to remove or severely nerf the Magic Mirror ability series.

Other than that, it looks good to me. The abilities match what little I know of the fluff, and the weapon, while powerful, isn't too game breaking.

Keep up the good work :smallsmile:

Latronis
2009-11-23, 12:56 AM
That actor is too small to be Richard.

And really the Agiel is just a stiff piece of leather so it probably shouldn't do as much base damage as a club.

Solaris
2009-11-23, 01:11 AM
That actor is too small to be Richard.

And really the Agiel is just a stiff piece of leather so it probably shouldn't do as much base damage as a club.

I thought about that, too, except the Agiel doesn't do physical damage - it just hurts that bad. Hence, I could see it doing lethal and nonlethal damage alike with just a touch.
I did gather that they were magic, though.

Latronis
2009-11-23, 01:24 AM
trying to avoid spoilers of later books (since i believe the series was only the first book and i havent seen it) it's bloodletting, bone breaking, torture-inducing, and even heart-stopping pain effects are all completely due to it's magic. It could ofc deal lethal damage because it is afterall capable of doing real damage to a person, but things like anti-magic field would render it basically useless.

Lapak
2009-11-23, 02:35 AM
Yep, that is not even in the same neighborhood as 'balanced.' I thought the saving throws were bad (if I'm reading this right, they end up with an effective +9 to both Fort and Will saves in five levels) but the Magic Mirror abilities are way over the top, I'm afraid. Level 10 character completely immune to magic - not even 'infinite SR immune', which can be bypassed and would still be unbalanced - but absolute immunity plus spell turning. No other class gets that in 20 levels, let alone 5; it's an upper-tier Epic ability. I understand the desire to stick close to the source material, but this is one of those situations where the source material just doesn't work in a game.

Jogi
2009-11-23, 10:02 AM
Hehehehe, I kinda saw this coming guys =D but I wanted to hear what everyone's got to say.

Well, I figured at that this class is meant to be added to higher level starting characters as the Mord'Siths early training would grant them some levels. Nonetheless, Im considering everyone's suggestion to turn it into a base class.

About Magic Mirror: The 8th level thing was a typo - 9th is the level meant to be out. Sorry, but I didn't really had much time to balance it. So, anyone thinks I should make it dependable on caster level? Also, if this is to be turned into a base class, the 8th level would be around 20's abilities.

About the saves: so, should I have them get a +1 every 4 levels (Assuming it's now a base class)?

About the Agiel: hmm, I still think the agiel damage is not bad. I mean, a monk can end up doing 2d10 with his bare hands, and this stick is a magical one. Also, so, should I let them wield choose what kind of damage the Agiel deals? Maybe even elaborate Channel Pain more so that we can have "bloodletting, bone breaking, torture-inducing, and even heart-stopping pain effects"?

Oh, about the AC Bonus, it's meant only for light leather armors.

Anyway, I think I'll turn this into a base class soon :D
Thanks for the tips ^^!

Quixotico
2009-11-23, 12:31 PM
With the understanding that you've based this class upon the television series and not upon the (IMHO vastly superior) books, I greatly suggest reading the books. There are a number of aspects in Goodkind's writing that were ignored or outright bastardized for the television series, and these aspects could help bring balance to the class.

If anyone wishes to avoid spoilers, I've made the following comments hidden. Read at your own risk of spoilers to the book series.
First and foremost is the way a Mord-Sith's connection with magic works. They are not immune to magic. What they do, however, is bend a person's magic back on them. If you use your magic on a Mord-Sith who is not bonded, she may take your magic and turn it against you. She doesn't control the magic, she simply denies you the use of your own magic and causes you pain through it should you try to use it. A Mord-Sith cannot be bonded to more than one person at a time.

Breaking someone is not an easy task, either. It is much more the result of psychological manipulation than pain, by the agiel or not.

Plus, an agiel is painful to the touch, even if one is just hold it. A Mord-Sith's pain might make her angry, but the agiel doesn't feed off of pain. It's actually a very precise instrument.

With that in mind, I would suggest making the Mord-Sith PrC focused on learning to use the agiel better. Each level offers a new technique, and perhaps the ability to shrug off the nonlethal damage it should be doing to it's wielder. In the hands of a non-Mord-Sith, the agiel is a fairly crude tool and an even cruder weapon.

Lapak
2009-11-23, 01:55 PM
About Magic Mirror: The 8th level thing was a typo - 9th is the level meant to be out. Sorry, but I didn't really had much time to balance it. So, anyone thinks I should make it dependable on caster level? Also, if this is to be turned into a base class, the 8th level would be around 20's abilities.That's not really a solution, I'm afraid. You're giving them absolute blanket immunity to an entire class feature. It's similar to a class getting a capstone ability of (DR 75/-); sure, uberchargers and the biggest monsters can still put a dent in you, but 999 out of 1000 relevant foes are completely unable to hurt you. The fact that it becomes an offensive power as well is just too much.

I'd make two adjustments. The first is that I'd make it a contested roll, in the manner of a counterspell or similar mechanic. The second is that I'd limit the ability to locking down one spellcaster/spell-like-user at a time; while you're concentrating on one fellow's powers you can't stop another one. To balance that, I'd cause that one successful attempt to lock down the caster for a while rather than just stop one spell. Hmm. On reflection, this might be best modeled as a one-sided supernatural grappling match: the caster cannot expend spell slots or use spell-like abilities until they succeed in a harder contested roll they can attempt once per round, and the attempt automatically allows the Mord'Sith to inflict damage on them. Say, 1 hit point per Mord'Sith level per attempt, and allow the Mord'Sith to choose whether the damage type is lethal or non-lethal.

I think a mechanic along these lines would have several advantages. It would be more balanced, as spellcasters significantly above your level will not fall prey so easily, and will escape more quickly if they do. It would give the class significantly more of a team-player role, since the entire group benefits from locking down an enemy caster. And it's about the same in terms of matching the source material; while it wasn't so easy to escape the Mord'Sith, they didn't walk around reflecting fireballs back at their enemies either.

EDIT: If you're going to make this a 20-level class, you could have the character learn to stop different things as they level up: at 1, spellcasting. At 5, spell-like abilities. At 10, they can depower a magical item used against them and force the wielder into their 'grapple.' And so on.


About the saves: so, should I have them get a +1 every 4 levels (Assuming it's now a base class)?Huh. I'm not sure. +9 on two saves in five levels was way too much; an inherent +5/+5 bonus by level 20 doesn't seem so bad. It would depend on what else they get.

Temotei
2009-11-23, 02:12 PM
Lesser Magic Mirror: One of the most powerfull Mord'Sith abilities is their immunity to magic - it is not known how they have learned such a secret, but all Mord'Sith are capable of not only not being harmed by magic, but also reverse it to their will! As a free action, the Mord'Sith can activate this ability: she will be immune to level 0, 1 and 2 spells. Additionaly, the Mord'Sith can make a Spellcraft check (DC 10+the spell's caster conjurer level). If she succeeds, she can control a spell cast upon her as if she had cast it (althought the conjurer level is still the same of the one who cast it). Obviously, the Mord'Sith needs to be conscious to be able to use this ability.

I'm going to try to ignore the spelling errors and such for now, and just go to balance. I'll be back for that later, when I have time.

I think this ability could be changed to just be plain old magic mirror, getting rid of the different levels of power for it. Then, basically make it like Globe of Invulnerability, but it only works a certain number of rounds per day. That's what I'd do. For the reflection, you could essentially just do a counterspell check, just without casting the spell needed. This would only be available while the effect was active. That would also be a way to balance it a little more, because usually characters that will be taking this class won't have Spellcraft ranks.

Another idea could be to make a Spellcraft check right away. If that succeeds, then the mord'sith can attempt to reflect it with her agiel, by attacking it. Armor class could be 10 + spell level, with Widen Spell [Metamagic] lowering the armor class.

I'm not sure what the source material is like, but right now, it's completely unbalanced. I'd take a class for five levels just for that immunity, even if it had no base attack bonuses, save bonuses, etc. You basically wouldn't need saves anyway.

Jogi
2009-11-23, 07:26 PM
Okay, so I have put up the basis for the basic class. Anyone got any suggestions on cool effects for the Channel Pain? It is intended to be an hability that improves the usage of the Agiel.

Also, also suggestions already made were noted ^^ thanks everyone, I'll be using them soon.

Latronis
2009-11-23, 09:25 PM
Only someone who has had a specific Agiel used to train\break them suffers the pain it brings while wielding it, and only while grasping it, physical contact alone isn't enough.

That's easy enough to do though.. while wielding it you suffer the consequences, and it only brings on the pain(damage) from attack rolls(touch attacks would be fairly accurate representation too)

You could do a whole slew of techniques from out right intense pain (highest damage) to continous damage(bleeding) to physical stat damage( like dex damage might represent breaking ribs or something) upto save or die(stop heart)

Jogi
2009-11-23, 11:43 PM
Only someone who has had a specific Agiel used to train\break them suffers the pain it brings while wielding it, and only while grasping it, physical contact alone isn't enough.

That's easy enough to do though.. while wielding it you suffer the consequences, and it only brings on the pain(damage) from attack rolls(touch attacks would be fairly accurate representation too)

You could do a whole slew of techniques from out right intense pain (highest damage) to continous damage(bleeding) to physical stat damage( like dex damage might represent breaking ribs or something) upto save or die(stop heart)

Hmm, but if only people who are trained can feel suffer it wouldn't be like the original Agiel would it? I mean, in the original agiel physical contact seems to enough. Touch attacks, hmmm, yeah, might work.

Oh I love the ability damage idea. I'll certainly add it. Continuous damage would be kinda hard to make I think, but intense pain is sure to be included.

Latronis
2009-11-24, 12:15 AM
Hmm, but if only people who are trained can feel suffer it wouldn't be like the original Agiel would it? I mean, in the original agiel physical contact seems to enough. Touch attacks, hmmm, yeah, might work.

Oh I love the ability damage idea. I'll certainly add it. Continuous damage would be kinda hard to make I think, but intense pain is sure to be included.

Well bear in mind i haven't seen the series so it might have changed from the books. But there are several times when the mord sith have the agiel in close proximity, even while naked(iirc correctly denna even has it resting between her bare breasts before the end of sword of truth), that don't trigger the pain. Same is true for Richard later on, it only hurts him when he actually grasps it, not while its hanging from his neck. Nor does Denna's Agiel hurt Violet while Violet is using it on richard.

Denna's Agiel hurts richard during the breaking obviously. And afterwards it hurts him. Denna's Agiel hurts Denna because it was the Agiel used to train her as a mord sith.

Using it to inflict pain hurts the target. But it only hurts the wielder if the wielder has suffered under it as a target previously.

As for the bleeding.. well iirc i think 3rd edition actually had damage based bleeding rules, in 3.5 thats mostly handled by things like wounding which is 1 con damage on hit.

sigurd
2009-11-24, 01:35 AM
From the description it sounds like you are making a pain inducing monk. Why don't you start with the monk as a base class and then work from there.

You may find that torture and psychological toughness are poor trades for sheer damage potential. If you want the character class to exist beside the other classes I think you have to meet the game rulesystem half way. Everyone wants their creation to be the toughest on the block but the truth is you have to fit it into the overall structure of the game.


What about a spell thief\monk that instead of stealing spells turns them into psychological damage?



sigurd

Fako
2009-11-24, 01:48 AM
For a niche, they could be a striker/debuffer, causing effects that last 1 round or 1 round/level on a successful hit. You could have it gain a base damage benefit (such as sneak attack, sudden strike, skirmish, etc.) which applies to all strikes with a save, or to certain strikes without a save. You could then allow them to trade those extra dice to apply other effects (a good example is the Hamstring (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Hamstring) feat, trade 2 dice to cut speed in half).

Boci
2009-11-27, 12:24 PM
For a niche, they could be a striker/debuffer, causing effects that last 1 round or 1 round/level on a successful hit. You could have it gain a base damage benefit (such as sneak attack, sudden strike, skirmish, etc.) which applies to all strikes with a save, or to certain strikes without a save. You could then allow them to trade those extra dice to apply other effects (a good example is the Hamstring (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Hamstring) feat, trade 2 dice to cut speed in half).

I like this idea. However, to avoid making them too similar to a rogue with a load of anguish feats I'd give them pain points. When they attack they can spend pain points as a free action (this can also be done on an AoO) to give their attack some extra power.

1 pain point: tears in enemies eyes, -5 penalty to spot checks, grip on weapon loosens, -2 damage for 1 round

2 pain points: cries out in pain, cannot talk for 1 round, heart misses a beat, shaken for 1 round

3 pain points: becomes scared of Mord'Sith and must make a will save to attack her for a number of round equal to her wisdom score, leg muscles weaken, speed drops to 10ft for 1 round, cannot take 5ft steps

Ect.

How they get pain point is up to you. They could get them like inpsiration points at the beginning of the encounter, they could have an infinate number but need to loose 1 hp per pain point spent or gain a flat amount per attack (same amount as a rogue gets sneak attack)