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Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-23, 01:34 AM
So I saw someone suggest putting together ur-priest and Sublime chord with mystic theurge. After looking into it I came up with Savage Bard 5/ ur-priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 3/ Sublime Chord 1/ Mystic theurge 5/ XXX 4, where xxx is a sorcerer or bard PrC used to advance Sublime Chord. But I'm not 100% sure about this one little thing, the caster levels. Ur priest is Level + 1/2 of your caster level in all other casting classes. Sublime chord says you add your caster level in all other arcane spell casting classes to your sublime chord level to determine your caster level in both those classes and sublime chord. The way these interact is what calls into question the overall caster levels in all three classes. Bard and Sublime chord are fairly easy.

5 Bard
+
3 Mystic Theurge
+
1 Sublime Chord
+
5 Mystic Theurge
+
4 PrC xxx
=
18 For Bard. Sublime Chord breaks down the same way. Now Here's the thing, since Ur-Priest says you add 1/2 your caster level from all other casting classes, one interpretation could read like this:

2 Ur-Priest
+
3 Mystic Theurge
+
5 More Mystic Theurge
+
9 for half of bard CL
+
9 for half of Sublime Chord
=
CL 28.

Is that right?! That's absolutely insane, if it is right.

Rainbownaga
2009-11-23, 03:26 AM
I was thinking of doing a similar thing with bard 1/wizard 9/sublime chord 1/ultimate magus 10.

Doc Roc
2009-11-23, 03:48 AM
Might (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNTRkczI3Z2RnNA&hl=en) find this useful. I think a couple of things are wrong, but it's old and I don't always do maintenance on my builds.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-23, 05:17 AM
I like:

Bard 5 / Ur Priest 2 / Ardent 1 / Subverted Psion 1 / Ardent +1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Tainted Scholar (SC) 1 / Mystic Theurge 8

Casts as a Bard 5, Ur Priest 10, Ardent 7, Sublime Chord 10.

This gives 9/9/4/2.

You're entirely Wisdom/Con Based (SC goes off taint, increased by Wis/Con. Ardent goes off Wis. Ur Priest goes off Wis).

You'll have Crazy DC's for your SC spells, as well as a stupid large number of spells.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-25, 02:41 PM
Those all look like interesting and powerful builds, but I'm still looking for an answer to my original question. Am I doing the math right for the caster level of my build? All of the builds posted have the same issue.

Doc Roc
2009-11-25, 02:52 PM
Then we think you are.

Douglas
2009-11-25, 03:00 PM
One slight problem: Ur-Priest adds half of your levels in other casting classes, not half your caster level. There is a difference.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-26, 09:19 PM
One slight problem: Ur-Priest adds half of your levels in other casting classes, not half your caster level. There is a difference.

Well then, that looks like:
2 bard
+
2 ur-priest
+
0 sublime chord (1/2 gets rounded down)
+
8 mystic theurge
=
12 for ur priest spells

and by the same token, the caster level for sublime chord and bard drop

5 bard
+
1 sublime chord
+
5 mystic theurge
=
11 for sublime chord spells

and

5 bard
+
3 Mystic Theurge
+
1 Sublime Chord
=
8 for bard spells.

At that rate the character doesn't have a high enough caster level to cast most of his high-level spells........ there must be some middle-ground between these two extremes........ right?

infinitypanda
2009-11-26, 10:38 PM
If I remember correctly, caster level has no bearing on which spells you can cast, only on the power of the spell's effects. So I believe you can still cast all your spells, they just won't last long.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-26, 10:55 PM
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

so if you're caster level is 8 as a bard, and you try to cast a 4th level bard spell, it automatically fizzles because you have to cast 4th level bard spells at a minimum of CL 10

noiadodh
2009-11-26, 10:58 PM
you cant cast a 2th level spell as a wizard with a caster level < 3, and so on..

edit: ninjaed

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-26, 11:28 PM
actually, since the ur-priest has its own spell list that just happens to be identical to the cleric spell list, an ur-priest casts spells at a caster level equal to the spell's spell level.

Edit: I just realized what kind of magic item crafting cheese that can result in :smalleek:

noiadodh
2009-11-26, 11:31 PM
Class:

cast as X th level // caster level

Sublime Chord:

1(SC)+8(MT)+4(xxx) = 10th* // 5(bard)+1(SC)+5(MT)+4(xxx) = CL 15

Ur-Priest:

2(UP)+8(MT) = 10th // 10(UP)+[5(BARD)+1(SC)+4(xxx)]/2 = CL 15 or 14 if levels are rounded down separatedly

edited: sorry for the errors, its 3AM here :smalltongue:

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-27, 12:11 AM
Class:

cast as X th level // caster level

Sublime Chord:

1(SC)+8(MT)+4(xxx) = 10th* // 5(bard)+1(SC)+8(MT)+4(xxx) = CL 18

Bard:

5th // CL 18

Ur-Priest:

2(UP)+8(MT) = 10th // 10(UP)+[5(BARD)+1(SC)+4(xxx)]/2 = CL 15 or 13 if levels are rounded down separatedly

Small hiccup: not all 8 levels of MT are applied to SC, though they could be if this was put together a little differently. Since only 5 MT levels are applied to SC your Sublime Chord CL is only increased by 5, and since the three levels of MT that are applied to bard aren't actual bard levels or levels in any other arcane casting class, they're not figured into the Chord's CL either. This makes your bard CL 9 (5 Brd + 3 MT + 1 SC) and your SC caster level 11 (5 brd + 5 MT + 1 SC).... Since the SC draws from other class spell lists he'd use the minimum CL of a character of those classes, meaning at CL 11 he could cast up to 6th level sorcerer/wizard spells or 4th level bard spells as long as he used his spell slots gained from SC.

Edit: I keep forgetting the 4 levels of PrC added to SC after MT, that's still only CL 15 though, putting us at 8th lvl Sorc/Wiz spells, and 5th lvl bard spells. That's by no means bad, but it's not 9th lvl arcane spells either. The spells you cast with your bard spell slots are still pitiful though.

infinitypanda
2009-11-27, 12:15 AM
so if you're caster level is 8 as a bard, and you try to cast a 4th level bard spell, it automatically fizzles because you have to cast 4th level bard spells at a minimum of CL 10

Well snap.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-27, 12:29 AM
One slight problem: Ur-Priest adds half of your levels in other casting classes, not half your caster level. There is a difference.

I'd argue that for a level in which you gestalted Ur-priest with another caster class, you get to count that level in both parts of that equation.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-11-27, 12:31 AM
Don't forget to dip one level of Spellthief and take the feat Master Spellthief. That feat alone gives a Bard 9/ Spellthief 1/ Sublime Chord 10 a higher caster level than your current build.

noiadodh
2009-11-27, 12:41 AM
Small hiccup: not all 8 levels of MT are applied to SC, though they could be if this was put together a little differently.

i was too concerned about the Ur-Priest caster level. is it right?

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-27, 12:46 AM
The ur-priest would be at CL 12 or 13, 2 for his actual ur-priest levels, 8 for his MT levels, and either 2 for bard and 0 for SC or 3 for the sum of his bard and sublime chord levels. That is (2+8+2+0=12) or (2+8+3=13)

I guess Practiced Spell-caster can salvage the SC spell casting, bringing your Sublime Chord CL up to 19, but that still leaves quite a few nearly useless bard spell-slots.

noiadodh
2009-11-27, 12:52 AM
a xxx level doesnt count as a casting class level?

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-27, 01:11 AM
If by xxx you mean some PrC, then no it doesn't count. Or else MT counts like I suggested in my original post, and the CL for ur-priest is 28 by the time the character makes lvl 20.

crazedloon
2009-11-27, 01:21 AM
Savage Bard 5/ ur-priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 3/ Sublime Chord 1/ Mystic theurge 5

savage bard = 8
savage bard 5 + MT 3

ur priest = 17
UP 2 + MT 8 + ((bard 5 +MT 8+ SC 1)/2) = 17
Ur priest is determined by
his level which has MT added to it = 10
half of all other (i.e. none ur priest) casting classes = 7

Sublime cord = 14
SC 1 + MT 5 + MT 8 = 14

Is determind by
his level + MT = 6
another arcane class, in this case MT as it is the highest non SC class = 8

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-27, 01:36 AM
Savage Bard 5/ ur-priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 3/ Sublime Chord 1/ Mystic theurge 5

savage bard = 8
savage bard 5 + MT 3

ur priest = 17
UP 2 + MT 8 + ((bard 5 +MT 8+ SC 1)/2) = 17
Ur priest is determined by
his level which has MT added to it = 10
half of all other (i.e. none ur priest) casting classes = 7

Sublime cord = 14
SC 1 + MT 5 + MT 8 = 14

Is determind by
his level + MT = 6
another arcane class, in this case MT as it is the highest non SC class = 8

In Sublime Chord, why are you counting his MT levels twice? and SC improves the CL of the other arcane spell casting classes the character has, so shouldn't that put the bard at at least 9 by your calculation?

crazedloon
2009-11-27, 01:43 AM
In Sublime Chord, why are you counting his MT levels twice? and SC improves the CL of the other arcane spell casting classes the character has, so shouldn't that put the bard at at least 9 by your calculation?

Ah I did miss that the bards caster level is 14 as the SCs

noiadodh
2009-11-27, 02:17 AM
If by xxx you mean some PrC, then no it doesn't count. Or else MT counts like I suggested in my original post, and the CL for ur-priest is 28 by the time the character makes lvl 20.

even counting MT twice (actually 1.5times /nitpick) it isnt 28, as ur counting 1/2 SC caster levels, not class levels..

question (i know my logic is probably flawed here, but still): we have the mechanic of 1/2 of other classes levels counting for initiator level.. any prc that advances initiator level (if any exists) will advance only +1 initiator level, not 1.5 right?

if it was a real build (well i admit, not RAW) i would just suggest to ignore the 0.5 part on MT levels, as these levels were already counted as UP class levels.. and accept the other 4 xxx levels for UP caster level

ps: sorry english isnt my native language

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-27, 02:18 AM
I still don't see why you're counting the MT levels as "levels in another spell-casting class" for determining the ur-priest's CL?

noiadodh
2009-11-27, 02:21 AM
im not counting

edit: posting again

Ur-Priest:

Cast as xth level // Caster Level

2(UP)+8(MT) = 10th // 10(UP)+[5(BARD)+1(SC)+4(xxx)]/2 = CL 15 or 14 if levels are rounded down separatedly

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-27, 02:22 AM
even counting MT twice (actually 1.5times /nitpick) it isnt 28, as ur counting 1/2 SC caster levels, not class levels..

question (i know my logic is probably flawed here, but still): we have the mechanic of 1/2 of other classes levels counting for initiator level.. any prc that advances initiator level (if any exists) will advance only +1 initiator level, not 1.5 right?

if it was a real build (well i admit, not RAW) i would just suggest to ignore the 0.5 part on MT levels, as these levels were already counted as UP class levels.. and accept the other 4 xxx levels for UP caster level

ps: sorry english isnt my native language

So that'd be

bard level (not CL) is:
5 for actual bard levels
+
3 for MT
=
8

SC Level is :
1 for SC
+
5 for MT
=
6

and ur-priest's CL is:

2 ur-priest
+
8 MT
+
4 for effective bard level
+
3 for effective SC level
=
17?

Bard and SC would Share their CL at:

8 effective bard levels
+
6 effective SC levels
=
14


Hmmmm.......... I don't know if it's RAW, but it's definitely reasonable. Slap on Practiced Spell-caster a couple times and we're good to go.

noiadodh
2009-11-27, 02:25 AM
yeah 15, just like if it was a bard 10/ur-priest 10 (i dont know the prereqs of UP, im without acess to books right now), check my post just above yours

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-27, 02:28 AM
Edited my last post for a mistake made by my sleep deprived brain :smalltongue: