[4e] Bard-Rogue

[R. Shackleford]

I have recently found and understood the idea behind the multiclass feats.

So I wanted to combine my two favorite classes: Rogue and Bard.

What's the best way to go about this? I think for Paragon, I want to go either Daring Blade or Rakish Swashbuckler. Also, probably going to play Drow, because they have relevant Racial bonuses.

So, what's the best way to go about doing this?

[Kurald Galain]

Depends on what you want out of it.

4E rogues are mostly about being mobile and damaging enemies, with a few debuffs; 4E bards are mostly about healing and moving their teammates around. The two don't synergize all that well.

The most prominent rogue feature is Sneak Attack. However, if you multiclass to rogue, you can sneak attack only once per encounter.

[Duos Greanleef]

I am in love with the Bard class almost solely due to Multiclass versatility.
It's too much fun to be a Bard/Wizard/Warlock/Sorcerer.
But I digress...
Were you wanting to have more emphasis on being a dagger-wielding sneak, or a master of the arcane art form?
I would start Drow Bard and aim for paragon multiclassing. Tons of fun ensues I assure you.

Powers: This part is up to you.
Valorous Bard powers generally lend them selves to melee combat (which is where a rogue would be anyways.) However, for the fluff's sake... it's a bit weak for RP purposes... oh well. I'll let you work that part out.
The one thing I will deem mandatory though is the Bard Level 1 Daily Slayer's Song. on a hit the target grants CA (save ends). Regardless of the hit, every time you hit a target until the end of the encounter, you cause the target to grant CA until the end of your next turn. Sneak attack anyone?
Okay, so you only get sneak attack once an encounter, but that one time is definitely better than nothing right?
Once you hit Level 11, swap one of your bard At-Will attacks for Sly flourish.
Your upped DEX and CHA make it a brilliant At-Will for a bard/rogue.
It's also good to find powers that let you tack on sneak attack damage. (i.e. Confounding attack)

Here's what I whipped up using the character builder:
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Drow Bard/Rogue, level 11
Drow, Bard, Paragon Multiclassing
Build: Valorous Bard
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Valor
Darkfire: Darkfire Charisma

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 15, Dex 18, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 19.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 14.


AC: 19 Fort: 17 Reflex: 20 Will: 20
HP: 77 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +11, Streetwise +14, Bluff +14, Acrobatics +14, Athletics +12, Thievery +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy +10, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +8, Heal +7, History +7, Insight +7, Intimidate +12, Nature +7, Perception +7, Religion +7, Stealth +12

FEATS
Bard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Sneak of Shadows
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier)
Level 4: Weapon Expertise (Light Blade)
Level 6: Novice Power
Level 8: Acolyte Power
Level 10: Adept Power
Level 11: Cull the Weak

POWERS
Bard at-will 1: Guiding Strike
Bard at-will 1: War Song Strike (retrained to Sly Flourish at Paragon Multiclassing)
Paragon Multiclassing: Circling Predator
Bard encounter 1: Inspiring Refrain (retrained to Guarded Attack at Novice Power)
Bard daily 1: Slayer's Song
Bard utility 2: Song of Courage (retrained to Sneak in the Attack at Acolyte Power)
Bard encounter 3: Cunning Ferocity
Bard daily 5: Word of Mystic Warding (retrained to Confounding Attack at Adept Power)
Bard utility 6: Song of Speed
Bard encounter 7: Chillsong Stroke
Bard daily 9: Thunder Blade
Bard utility 10: Veil

ITEMS
Ritual Book
RITUALS
Glib Limerick, Silence

[LibraryOgre]

I am in love with the Bard class almost solely due to Multiclass versatility.
It's too much fun to be a Bard/Wizard/Warlock/Sorcerer.


My only problem with that specific combo is that the multiclass feats for Sorcerers and Wizards specify that you get to train Arcana... which bards already have. Taking a few other classes (say, Paladin Ranger Barbarian Warlock Warlord and Rogue) means you get more abilities and more skills.

With that kind of incentive, a bard does well to take tons of multiclass feats, getting a lot of skill coverage AND a ton of extra abilities.

[Duos Greanleef]

With that kind of incentive, a bard does well to take tons of multiclass feats, getting a lot of skill coverage AND a ton of extra abilities.

I guess part of the love for that build was in the specific character. Plus we had houseruled the skill training part; +2 to the skill if you're already trained in it.
But I see what you're saying, and I have been the multipower multirole guy before. It's a ton of fun being a schizophrenic changeling that's a little bit of everything. :smalltongue:

[DSCrankshaw]

Fortunately, Combat Virtuoso means that you don't need to maximize Dex in order to have a good attack bonus. I wouldn't let it sink into the ground--you'll need at least 13 just to qualify for the feats, and more means better damage and skill bonuses. The Daring Blade paragon path is better, once it's available, so be sure to retrain it at 11th.

Since rogues are primarily melee, you'll want to build around a melee bard. Take valorous bard powers and work from there.

I would recommend Half-elf, since this lets you have a rogue at-will once an encounter at level 1, and a true at-will at level 11.

[TheEmerged]

First question: are you planning to be a rogue that has a bit of the captain... er, a few bard tricks to throw around? Or are you looking at a bard that has Sneak Attack? If you start rogue and add bard, you'll be able to Sneak Attack more than once an encounter but be missing some of the best parts of being a bard.

If you start as a rogue, you'll definitely want to go Artful Dodger. If you start Bard, none of the three options work that well with Dex. But that's okay (reference the Combat Virtuoso feat someone already mentioned) :smallbiggrin:

If you're primarily a rogue that's mixing a little bard in, either Halfling or Changeling are good choices (Dex & Cha). If you're a bard that's mixing a little rogue in, Changeling is still a good idea -- but so is Half Elf (if going Virtue of Valor), Gnome (if going Virtue of Cunning), or Kalashtar (if going Virtue of Prescience).

[Kurald Galain]

Fortunately, Combat Virtuoso means that you don't need to maximize Dex in order to have a good attack bonus.
True, but that pretty much implies that your rogue side won't be very useful until you hit paragon (or unless you start there, of course).

But you can always get a dex/cha race and start with 18/18, so it's no big deal.

[Shadow_Elf]

I once played a Hybrid (See DDi) Drow Rogue|Bard//Rakish Swashbuckler for a one-off. She was hilariously fun, with a lot of shifting and forced movement powers. She played a lot like a controller, really, and moved all around the battlefield. Her Sly Flourish at-will got to ridiculous levels - with a footpad's friend and sneak attack, she was dealing 4d8 + 20 with sly flourish at level 11.

The one-off took place on a boat (I'm on a boat!) and she had an eye patch and a parrot familiar. I had the Parrot (Max) do all the skills for the whole party, since I had Jack of all Trades and the bard's skill versatility, and familiars use your modifiers for all skills. He was picking locks, disabling traps and analyzing portals, all whilst I stood at a safe distance.

[TheEmerged]

The one-off took place on a boat (I'm on a boat!) and she had an eye patch and a parrot familiar. I had the Parrot (Max) do all the skills for the whole party, since I had Jack of all Trades and the bard's skill versatility, and familiars use your modifiers for all skills. He was picking locks, disabling traps and analyzing portals, all whilst I stood at a safe distance.

"Jack" and the bard's skill versatility is such a fun combination. Ironically it counter-balances the bard's ability to repeatedly dual-class, since being trained in new skills are now only +2 to the roll.

[Duos Greanleef]

...But you can always get a dex/cha race and start with 18/18, so it's no big deal.

If you do that, you lose all of the bard's versatility and the opportunity to be whatever whenever. [Which may not be a focus, but should probably be an afterthought.:smallsmile:]