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WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 04:31 PM
I was considering starting a game with my friend, (3.5), and we were discussing characters. However, the guy just will not shut up about how amazing Warlocks are. Is there a reason? Why are they so good (if they are at all?)? As far as I can tell, fly, damage at will (that...doesn't? function in an AMF?) and some invocations that seem to mimic a few spells.

Am I missing something?

If they are so fantastic, is it worth going straight warlock? Or is there a particular build that makes them more awesome? Help.

He's practically barging me into this class without an option, and unless they're kick ass, I'd like an option out.

Innis Cabal
2009-11-23, 04:33 PM
Its a very good class. Fairly well balanced, not a whole lot of UBER powers...but its fun. I think so at least. I can understand where your friend is comming from. They are one of the most fun arcane classes in the game.

Going straight through, maybe not. There are some cool PrC's for it in numeros splatbooks, but thats up to you. Play what you want in the end

Yukitsu
2009-11-23, 04:33 PM
They are pretty weak actually. There's a few builds that do OK, but on a whole, they aren't going to do anything a well made general arcanist can.

Tavar
2009-11-23, 04:34 PM
Warlocks can be very fun to play, but they aren't that powerful, baring certain builds. The damage is pretty minor, the spells are outstripped by an equal leveled caster, as can most of their tricks. Really, if you don't want to play one, don't play one. It probably won't end well. Though, if you are concerned about power, there are a couple builds that the playground could show you.

Kallisti
2009-11-23, 04:37 PM
Warlocks are pretty awesome if done right. Eldritch Blast deals some pretty damn good damage, and some of their invocations are very nice indeed. The Dead Walk lets you make corpses into temporary zombies for free, Flee the Scene is Dimension Door that leaves behind an illusioin of you, and there are plenty of others. Oh, and while we're at it, all of their buffs get a 24-hour duration, so you can Entropic Shield up the entire party. They're hardly the best class in the game, and they're not that amazing, but they've got decent damage and all kinds of utility and control. I like them better than beguilers for making the lives of enemies miserable. Playing straight Warlock would be silly, though. You should PrC, since IIRC they can get Eldritch Balst and invocations from +1 level of arcane. And there are some PrCs specifically for them, like Eldritch Theurge.

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 04:37 PM
Can anyone name, link or otherwise direct to these builds?

Power I'm not overtly concerned about, I just want to have fun.

Being outstripped by a mage isn't a problem, as High Magic is banned within the campaign world (spells above 6th level, specifically those used by Mages/Druids/Clerics).

The DM claims Warlock is okay due to no actual "Magic" per se.

Forever Curious
2009-11-23, 04:38 PM
They are pretty weak actually. There's a few builds that do OK, but on a whole, they aren't going to do anything a well made general arcanist can.

Peshaw, show me a "well made Arcanist" that can deal consistent damage AT WILL in addition to nifty utility abilities.

Yukitsu
2009-11-23, 04:39 PM
If it's a magic free game, and you're going for fun, a warlock is a good choice.

I ran one from one to 20 pure, and they can be pretty rewarding. You just need to know which abilities to focus on for your archetype, and stick with them. Me, I went battlefield control, oddly enough.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-23, 04:39 PM
Peshaw, show me a "well made Arcanist" that can deal consistent damage AT WILL in addition to nifty utility abilities.

LOL @ Reserve feats?:smallcool:

Telonius
2009-11-23, 04:42 PM
Warlock is a class that always has something to do. Eldritch Blast isn't particularly powerful (compare its damage to some of the scaling Evocation spells - and remember that Evocation is generally regarded as sub-par), but you never run out of it. It's a pretty well-balanced class. I really enjoyed playing one in a few one-shot campaigns, but then I like high-charisma classes in general.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-11-23, 04:44 PM
I think there is an active warlock handbook over at BG.

BRC
2009-11-23, 04:44 PM
Warlocks are a fairly solid class. They aren't unstoppable powerhouses, but they can hold their own and generally make a good addition to any moderately optimized party. You can't really go wrong playing a Warlock.
However, if the class dosn't really appeal to you, don't play it.
To give you a better idea of the class

The main difference between a Warlock and, say, a Sorcerer or Wizard is that their abilities are not limited by X per day. However, because Wizards and sorcerers are designed to have enough spells to survive a days worth of encounters, it's not that big of an advantage.

As for being Fun, if you've got a good imagination, a Warlock can be a very fun class to play. You're flying around shooting people with energy beams. The mechanics of the Warlock class are alot simpler than a Wizard or Sorc, so you can focus on having fun instead of wading through a thousand different spell descriptions. The class does have a decent amount of customization in it depending on what type of warlock you want to play.

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 04:44 PM
Eldritch blast I do get the appeal of, especially when you mix it with some of it's alternates. Clinging something or other, ring a bell? That ability made me quiver. lol.

But invocation wise he didn't seem to shine, maybe I am comparing him too much to an arcanist. But does he have any stiff competition from a NPC/Big bad stand point if high level magic is banned?

I'm a tad worried also that even though it's banned in the world, the DM may throw a law breaker NPC at us.

Could a Warlock even hope to stand up to a Mage?

Also, dragonfire adept, another class that my friend keeps pushing. Views? Sorry for all the questions. I need assistance deciding.

Temotei
2009-11-23, 04:45 PM
And warlock lets you play a diplomancer to the max.

Jade_Tarem
2009-11-23, 04:46 PM
Peshaw, show me a "well made Arcanist" that can deal consistent damage AT WILL in addition to nifty utility abilities.

If your arcanist *needs* to deal consistent damage at will, then you're doing it wrong.

Also:
Reserve Feats
Archmagi
Any decent summoning build
Chain Gate
etc...

RagnaroksChosen
2009-11-23, 04:47 PM
Eldritch blast I do get the appeal of, especially when you mix it with some of it's alternates. Clinging something or other, ring a bell? That ability made me quiver. lol.

But invocation wise he didn't seem to shine, maybe I am comparing him too much to an arcanist. But does he have any stiff competition from a NPC/Big bad stand point if high level magic is banned?

I'm a tad worried also that even though it's banned in the world, the DM may throw a law breaker NPC at us.

Could a Warlock even hope to stand up to a Mage?

Also, dragonfire adept, another class that my friend keeps pushing. Views? Sorry for all the questions. I need assistance deciding.


DFA's are amazing im a huge fan. I personaly think they are more powerfull...

BTW we can make better sugestions if we knew what books where allowed.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-23, 04:48 PM
If you're willing to stick through that long, Warlock 12 is a very nice feature. Welcome to the wonderful world of making any scroll in the game ever.

But level 12 is probably the last level I'd be willing to take of pure Warlock. There are some pretty nice PrC options for them.

Forever Curious
2009-11-23, 04:51 PM
If your arcanist *needs* to deal consistent damage at will, then you're doing it wrong.

Also:
Reserve Feats
Archmagi
Any decent summoning build
Chain Gate
etc...


LOL @ Reserve feats?

...note to self, think before I talk...

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 04:51 PM
DFA's are amazing im a huge fan. I personaly think they are more powerfull...

BTW we can make better sugestions if we knew what books where allowed.

All books are downloadable buyable if you look hard enough. Hehe. So go wild with what books are allowed, just be sure to name the title your getting it from!


If you're willing to stick through that long, Warlock 12 is a very nice feature. Welcome to the wonderful world of making any scroll in the game ever.

But level 12 is probably the last level I'd be willing to take of pure Warlock. There are some pretty nice PrC options for them.

Could someone name any of these PrC's? Benefits?

Also, dragonfire adept is actually very appealing. If I'm being railroaded into a choice, the warlock appeals for their flying shooty goodness, the Dragonfire adept for...well...everything.

Anyone else have a particular favourite for good reasons?

BRC
2009-11-23, 04:53 PM
Eldritch blast I do get the appeal of, especially when you mix it with some of it's alternates. Clinging something or other, ring a bell? That ability made me quiver. lol.

But invocation wise he didn't seem to shine, maybe I am comparing him too much to an arcanist. But does he have any stiff competition from a NPC/Big bad stand point if high level magic is banned?

I'm a tad worried also that even though it's banned in the world, the DM may throw a law breaker NPC at us.

Could a Warlock even hope to stand up to a Mage?

Also, dragonfire adept, another class that my friend keeps pushing. Views? Sorry for all the questions. I need assistance deciding.
A Warlock can indeed stand up to a Wizard. Or at least, he's not any worse at it than anybody else.

What you need to remember about Wizards, is that "A Wizard" tells us nothing about the power level. Even A level X wizard tells us nothing. There are so many spells out there at varying levels of power that it's almost impossible to determine how powerful a wizard is going to be without seeing his spell list and knowing his strategies.
For example, a 20th level Wizard who just stands there blasting won't do that well against a 20th level fighter who charges in and proceeds to smash the Wizard's face in with his greatsword. A Wizard who flies, buffs himself, and target's the fighter's weak saves will dominate.

A Warlock can stand up and hold his own against a blaster wizard, Their damage output on a given round may be lower, but they don't lose their spells if they miss. A warlock will have trouble against a caster prepared to fight Warlocks,

Telonius
2009-11-23, 04:55 PM
Eldritch blast I do get the appeal of, especially when you mix it with some of it's alternates. Clinging something or other, ring a bell? That ability made me quiver. lol.

But invocation wise he didn't seem to shine, maybe I am comparing him too much to an arcanist.


Tactically, arcanist isn't typically the sort of character I'd compare the Warlock to. Most Warlocks are closer to a sniper - make it so they can't hit you (fly, etc), target a single foe that other people are having problems with, and fire away. Arcanists on the other hand are generally battlefield controllers or heavy artillery (depending on whether they play Wizards as the game designers intended, or as the collective wisdom of the internet has decreed).


Could a Warlock even hope to stand up to a Mage?

Well, he could hope to, in the same way that a Giacomonk could. (In some ways he'd be better at it, too, since he can fool items and has UMD on his class list). Maybe at low- and mid-levels before Wizards get access to some of the more awful Batman spells he'd have a better shot, but that's probably true of all classes. At higher levels the only thing that can really stand up to a well-built paranoid Mage is a bigger Mage.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-23, 04:55 PM
Peshaw, show me a "well made Arcanist" that can deal consistent damage AT WILL in addition to nifty utility abilities.

Hello reserve feats! I consider the trade of one feat for at-will nuking to be a reasonable trade.

Warlocks are solid. Not the highest power class, due to less versatility and nova ability than tier 1's, but I'd consider them quite playable, fun, and being one of the easier casters, bookwork wise. Good for those new to casting. For endurance type fighting, better than average.

Yukitsu
2009-11-23, 04:55 PM
As a tangent, the warlock is the perfect class if you want to play a magical school girl.

AmberVael
2009-11-23, 04:56 PM
The PrC I most hear mentioned along with Warlock is Hellfire Warlock. Its in Fiendish Codex II, but you can also find it right on the WotC site.
Link. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3)

The benefit is extra damage. Penalty is the con damage, which people usually try and get around with a Binder level dip, or use of a certain soulmeld (I think it is called Strong Heart Vest, but I can't remember for sure).

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 04:56 PM
A Warlock can indeed stand up to a Wizard. Or at least, he's not any worse at it than anybody else.

A Warlock can stand up and hold his own against a blaster wizard, Their damage output on a given round may be lower, but they don't lose their spells if they miss. A warlock will have trouble against a caster prepared to fight Warlocks,

Hmmmm so if the big bad knew we were coming. We'd be screwed lol. I think my friend is considering taking a barbarian. Do a warlock and barbarian mesh well? Complications?

There may be one other class but we're unsure as to what yet. Maybe a psionic.

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 04:58 PM
As a tangent, the warlock is the perfect class if you want to play a magical school girl.

Bahahaha brilliant. lol.

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 05:00 PM
The PrC I most hear mentioned along with Warlock is Hellfire Warlock. Its in Fiendish Codex II, but you can also find it right on the WotC site.
Link. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3)

The benefit is extra damage. Penalty is the con damage, which people usually try and get around with a Binder level dip, or use of a certain soulmeld (I think it is called Strong Heart Vest, but I can't remember for sure).

Ouch at the Con damage. It does state though "If you are somehow immune to Con damage, or if you have no Con score, you cannot use this ability".

Still validated?

Lord of Syntax
2009-11-23, 05:00 PM
http://memegenerator.net/Instances/937/Advice-Dog-PLAY-WARLOCK-9BINDER-1HELLFIRE-WARLOCK-3LEGACY-CHAMPION-7-WIN-DD.jpg

BRC
2009-11-23, 05:01 PM
Hmmmm so if the big bad knew we were coming. We'd be screwed lol. I think my friend is considering taking a barbarian. Do a warlock and barbarian mesh well? Complications?

There may be one other class but we're unsure as to what yet. Maybe a psionic.
If the big bad is a high level wizard who knows you're coming and picks spells to counter the party, then yes, you're screwed no matter what, because you are fighting Batman.

Is this the same friend who is constantly telling you to take Warlock. If you don't want to take the class, have him take it. As for damage, Warlocks and Barbarians mesh well in that they are both damaged focused, but they don't mesh any better than say a Fighter and a Warlock. Nothing about either class causes problems with them working together. Barb smashes things in Melee, Lock blasts things at range.

Yukitsu
2009-11-23, 05:02 PM
Technically, I believe you're supposed to have a major bloodline in there, because it advances the hellfire warlock's abilities above the maximum usually allowed.

Douglas
2009-11-23, 05:04 PM
Don't forget Uncanny Trickster for two more levels beyond the "maximum".
Don't be surprised if your DM doesn't allow it to work, though.

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 05:04 PM
If the big bad is a high level wizard who knows you're coming and picks spells to counter the party, then yes, you're screwed no matter what, because you are fighting Batman.

Is this the same friend who is constantly telling you to take Warlock. If you don't want to take the class, have him take it. As for damage, Warlocks and Barbarians mesh well in that they are both damaged focused, but they don't mesh any better than say a Fighter and a Warlock. Nothing about either class causes problems with them working together. Barb smashes things in Melee, Lock blasts things at range.

'Tis indeed the same friend.

I should of stated. Three people.

Me, the Pusher, and DM, who would play the third class.

I fear the Pusher and the DM may be in cahoots. Hence my paranoia.

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 05:05 PM
Don't forget Uncanny Trickster for two more levels beyond the "maximum".
Don't be surprised if your DM doesn't allow it to work, though.

Explain, friend? :-)

Telonius
2009-11-23, 05:06 PM
'Tis indeed the same friend.

I should of stated. Three people.

Me, the Pusher, and DM, who would play the third class.

I fear the Pusher and the DM may be in cahoots. Hence my paranoia.

If the DM is involved, paranoia is usually justified. :smallbiggrin:

Yukitsu
2009-11-23, 05:06 PM
Hellfire warlock gives you an extra 2d6 points of eldritch blast damage for every level of hellfire warlock you have, but is limited in that it is a 3 level progression. The class progresses class features as though you had gained another level in that class, so you can use that to get a +2 to your theoretical level dependant class features. Same goes for bloodlines.

Radiun
2009-11-23, 05:18 PM
As to Warlock VS Wizard

Voracious Dispelling
Counterspelling over and over and over.

Mind you I have no clue how to optimize a Dispelling Warlock so it could win the dispel check against an equal level wizard the majority of the time, but still, it's sure to make your DM go :smallfurious: if you can pull it off

jiriku
2009-11-23, 05:27 PM
Warlocks are fun to play if they suit your playstyle. So are dragonfire adepts. Even capped at 6th level spells, a full caster is more capable and unpredictable than a warlock, but warlocks are competitive with most Tier 3/4 classes like barbarian, bard, ranger, paladin, fighter, rogue, scout, etc.

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 05:28 PM
As to Warlock VS Wizard

Voracious Dispelling
Counterspelling over and over and over.

Mind you I have no clue how to optimize a Dispelling Warlock so it could win the dispel check against an equal level wizard the majority of the time, but still, it's sure to make your DM go :smallfurious: if you can pull it off

Bahaha for some reason dispelling and counterspelling skipped my attention. But you're right for at a loss how to optimize a Warlock to do that, I've got no idea either.

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 05:29 PM
Warlocks are fun to play if they suit your playstyle. So are dragonfire adepts. Even capped at 6th level spells, a full caster is more capable and unpredictable than a warlock, but warlocks are competitive with most Tier 3/4 classes like barbarian, bard, ranger, paladin, fighter, rogue, scout, etc.

So the Warlock is only a Tier 3/4? Bugger.

My stupid friend told me Tier 2. Why do I get the feeling I'm being....what's the term? Rickrolled?

deuxhero
2009-11-23, 05:32 PM
..."Fooled"?


Ouch at the Con damage. It does state though "If you are somehow immune to Con damage, or if you have no Con score, you cannot use this ability".

Still validated?

Binder dip gives you ability damage regeneration, not make you immune to it.

hamishspence
2009-11-23, 05:32 PM
Warlocks, dragonfire adepts, etc are At Will specialists-

everything they do, they can keep doing, but they don't get all that many options.

Factotums, and Tome of Battle swordsages, especially ones without that recovery feat, are Per Encounter specialists- they can use their powers every encounter, but rarely more than once per encounter.

It is an interesting way of handling powers- a little different from the Per Day powers of spellcasters.

streakster
2009-11-23, 05:33 PM
I love warlocks. Love them, love them, love them.

Now, I'll agree that if you just want raw power, warlock loses to real casters. But they are incredibly fun. At will shatter, blasting, spider-shape, invisibility, teleport + illusionary decoy, suggestion that they can't remember you making, and on and on and on.

So I can see why he loves them so much. I'd happily play one over a real caster anyday.

I'd say definitely try one. You might love them as much as me.

Darrin
2009-11-23, 05:35 PM
As to Warlock VS Wizard

Voracious Dispelling
Counterspelling over and over and over.

Mind you I have no clue how to optimize a Dispelling Warlock so it could win the dispel check against an equal level wizard the majority of the time, but still, it's sure to make your DM go :smallfurious: if you can pull it off

Hellbred Cleric 3/Warlock 2/Eldritch Disciple 10 with Devil's Favor + Divine Defiance + Soultouched Spellcasting + Fistful of Extra Turning, Dispelling Cord, and whatever that ACF was that allows you to double the Inquisition domain's +4 bonus on dispel checks to +8 (can't find it...). Counterspell as an immediate action with a +10 (or +12 w/ Devil's Favor) on top of your dispel check.

deuxhero
2009-11-23, 05:37 PM
In addition to a warlock/binder/Hellfire/legacy/trickster Glaivelock is also decent (Swiftblade is a fun class to enter by Warlock if the DM allows NWN2's Haste as a lesser evocation (http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Flee_the_Scene) and eldrich glaive to benefit from anything that boosts a full attack).

Hat-Trick
2009-11-23, 05:42 PM
If you start at a high enough level, play a pixie warlock. You get flight, invisibility, charisma bonus, dexterity bonus, intelligence bonus, and small size. The +4 LA sucks, but I'd play it anyway.

Rainbownaga
2009-11-23, 05:45 PM
If you're starting at level 1, a warlock is AWSOME!

Your wizard will cast their 2-3 level 1 spells and then get stuck shooting their crossbow (cantrips probably deal even less damage).

You will be casting summon swarm: standard action to deal d6 damage to four connected squares. The first time you hit them, you use bats (1 point of damage per round), then just add spiders or rats. Don't bother using your eldritch blast unless you want to add some variation.

My group are by no means overpowered, but when one of them switched to warlock at level 4 and started using that power my friends felt it was overpowered.

sonofzeal
2009-11-23, 05:48 PM
Note that Dragonfire Adept is generally seen as superior to Warlock, if you use things like Metabreath Feats, especially Entangling Exhalation. You can pool their invocations for a more extensive list, too.

Optimystik
2009-11-23, 05:48 PM
In addition to a warlock/binder/Hellfire/legacy/trickster Glaivelock is also decent (Swiftblade is a fun class to enter by Warlock if the DM allows NWN2's Haste as a lesser evocation (http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Flee_the_Scene) and eldrich glaive to benefit from anything that boosts a full attack).

That's the NWN2 version of Flee the Scene. The PnP version is still good, but much more reasonable. (short-range Dimension Door + Major image of you where you were standing.)

There are some instances where being a machine gun is worth the lower power. At-will dispel is definitely a big plus in Warlocks' favor. Plus, they have some rocking PrCs, and can qualify for a number of flavorful wiz/sorc PrCs.


Note that Dragonfire Adept is generally seen as superior to Warlock, if you use things like Metabreath Feats, especially Entangling Exhalation. You can pool their invocations for a more extensive list, too.

Perhaps, but demons still > dragons. :smallamused:

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-23, 06:13 PM
I support Warlock, and as for other prestige classes that may sound interesting mindbender 1 offers you telepathy at first level, and if you take the feat Mindsense (not sure of the name) from Lord of madness you have a continous radar that detects everything with a mind in your telepathy radius.

Jayabalard
2009-11-23, 06:19 PM
If your arcanist *needs* to deal consistent damage at will, then you're doing it wrong.I love how people equate "different" with "wrong"

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 06:26 PM
If you start at a high enough level, play a pixie warlock. You get flight, invisibility, charisma bonus, dexterity bonus, intelligence bonus, and small size. The +4 LA sucks, but I'd play it anyway.

Does the +4LA make you miss out on anything major at levels 16-20?

There's not a great capstone is there?

And I saw the Glaivelock build, seems quite damaging.

The Warlock is becoming more and more appealing.

You guys are terrible. I look for an option out and I start actually getting interested lol. Damn youuussseee. (See jay and silent bob) lol.

Hat-Trick
2009-11-23, 06:29 PM
Damage and dark invocations are the only things lost, but you can get at least one dark invocation if you buy off one of the LA at actual character level 12.

Yukitsu
2009-11-23, 06:31 PM
Does the +4LA make you miss out on anything major at levels 16-20?

There's not a great capstone is there?

And I saw the Glaivelock build, seems quite damaging.

The Warlock is becoming more and more appealing.

You guys are terrible. I look for an option out and I start actually getting interested lol. Damn youuussseee. (See jay and silent bob) lol.

Hey, there is no better excuse to play a magical school girl. :smallsmile:

Oh wait, you meant the mechanical stuff. Yeah, it's OK I guess.

KellKheraptis
2009-11-23, 06:42 PM
Hellbred playing as a Warlock/Ur-Priest/Eldritch Disciple/Hellfire Warlock...pure love, and no slouch compared to the more cheesed up characters either due to Ur-Priest being the great equalizer. Not to mention he just screams evil, particularly at 15th level where he gets Telepathy and Mindsight. Good luck sneaking up on him, too.

deuxhero
2009-11-23, 06:42 PM
That's the NWN2 version of Flee the Scene. The PnP version is still good, but much more reasonable. (short-range Dimension Door + Major image of you where you were standing.)


I know that, but Flee the Scenes (PNP) doesn't qualify you for Swiftblade like Flee the Scenes (NWN2) does.

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-23, 06:48 PM
You have seen the glavelock yes? How about the Tricklock?

Basicly, rogue + Warlock -> Arcane trickster.

A build I've been working on is Faen (Arcana Unearthed race) into racial spryte class (all of it), UA Expert-2, Warlock-1, Arcane Trickster-10, Hellfire warlock-3, Binder-1. With a LA by off option, add either Shadow or Shadow-Walker templates.

You get a good selection of SLAs, Decent natural flight, sneak attacking rays for competitive damage vs. mooks and enough evocations to stay competitive. You'll need a solid Int score for skill points (I was able to eek in with a 14. a 16 would be best).

ravenkith
2009-11-23, 07:07 PM
Warlocks are not bad if statted correctly.

One common trick at lower levels is to go Xeph, and pick up some of the psychic feats (psi shot, greater, psi meditation) to enhance your rtas out the wazzoo.

Andras
2009-11-23, 07:12 PM
You have seen the glavelock yes? How about the Tricklock?

Basicly, rogue + Warlock -> Arcane trickster.

They can't cast any arcane spells, so they can't get into AT. I'd let exceptions be made, personally, but that's RAW.

KillianHawkeye
2009-11-23, 07:24 PM
Oh, and while we're at it, all of their buffs get a 24-hour duration, so you can Entropic Shield up the entire party.

I just wanted to point out that this is wrong. All of the Warlock's buffs are self-only.

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-23, 07:40 PM
They can't cast any arcane spells, so they can't get into AT. I'd let exceptions be made, personally, but that's RAW.

I cut-n-paste this from the warlock information Compilation off of BG

Tricklock by leif008

I figured out one easy way for a Rogue/Warlock to meet the requirements for the Arcane Trickster Prc since it only requires the ability to cast 2 spells which can be met by spell-like abilities (pg 72 Carc). Mage hand is gained from the Spell hand feat, and the ability to cast Daylight gained from the Aasimar race which is a 3rd level arcane spell.

Aasimar +2 Cha, +2 Wis
[/END]

My way swaps the Aasimar and it's spell likes for the spell likes of the spryte

gdiddy
2009-11-23, 08:11 PM
Warlock 4 / Binder 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Eldritch Disciple 10 / Helfire Warlock 3

Cast 9th level cleric spells at level 16

Progress to a 17th -level-equivalent Warlock.

Have Unstoppable Diplomancer abilities when you combine Naberius and Beguiling Influence.

KellKheraptis
2009-11-23, 08:41 PM
Warlock 4 / Binder 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Eldritch Disciple 10 / Helfire Warlock 3

Cast 9th level cleric spells at level 16

Progress to a 17th -level-equivalent Warlock.

Have Unstoppable Diplomancer abilities when you combine Naberius and Beguiling Influence.

That is very close to what I suggested, complete with Binder and Hellfire Warlock add ons :) I think my build I used in a PBP used Soulborn, but that's only because I know Incarnum slightly better than vestiges.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-23, 08:41 PM
Warlock 4 / Binder 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Eldritch Disciple 10 / Helfire Warlock 3

Cast 9th level cleric spells at level 16

Progress to a 17th -level-equivalent Warlock.

Have Unstoppable Diplomancer abilities when you combine Naberius and Beguiling Influence.

Don't forget the spells Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar.

Draxar
2009-11-23, 08:47 PM
A wizard is Batman – he has a wonderful set of toys, he has a solution for every problem, and if he analyses the situation, he has exactly the right tool to fix it with.

A sorcerer is Green Lantern – he has a lot of power, he has flexibility in that there's a bunch of different things he can do, and at any given moment he can do any one of them, but he can only do it for so long before he needs to recharge.

A warlock is superman – the actual powers he has are far fewer, but he just keeps on going, he can blast you with his eyes over and over, he can fly all day and all night.

It's a simplification, but I think it's a fairly accurate one.

In terms of power, yes, an arcanist can generally apply more force at a given point. But the flexibility of the Warlock's powers should not be ignored. The ability to be constantly counterspelling with dispells is one example. The movement flexibility afforded by the flight and teleport spells are another, and the social possibilities of things like Dark Whispers (a Suggestion that people may forget being given after they complete it).

They allow for a carefree and reflexive use of power – you can just shatter that door with a Baleful Utterance, because doing so won't leave you unable to do whatever you need to later.


Ouch at the Con damage. It does state though "If you are somehow immune to Con damage, or if you have no Con score, you cannot use this ability".

Still validated?

That only applies to acutal immunity.

The binder power doesn't make you immune, it just makes you heal ability damage super fast. The incarnum thing effectively gives you DR to ability damage, which again isn't immunity.

Nate the Snake
2009-11-23, 09:46 PM
The incarnum thing effectively gives you DR to ability damage, which again isn't immunity.

While the Ability Damage Reduction isn't immunity, you still don't take the damage, which goes against the intent of the class ability. Yes, by RAW, the hellfire bonus isn't dependent on actually taking the damage, but according to the fluff, you have to pay the cost (Con damage) to use hellfire.


Hellbred Cleric 3/Warlock 2/Eldritch Disciple 10 with Devil's Favor + Divine Defiance + Soultouched Spellcasting + Fistful of Extra Turning, Dispelling Cord, and whatever that ACF was that allows you to double the Inquisition domain's +4 bonus on dispel checks to +8 (can't find it...). Counterspell as an immediate action with a +10 (or +12 w/ Devil's Favor) on top of your dispel check.

Domain Focus, Dragon 347 (or Crystalkeep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf)). You trade one domain and spontaneous cure/inflict spells for double the domain power of your single domain.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-23, 09:51 PM
While the Ability Damage Reduction isn't immunity, you still don't take the damage, which goes against the intent of the class ability.

If you're ruling by intent Naberius is banned too. But Naberius is much less problematic than Strongheart Vest for this reason. If you don't take the damage at all it could be construed as situational immunity, as opposed to Naberius which does not resemble immunity at all.

Draz74
2009-11-23, 10:00 PM
Warlock is a fine class. Low Tier 4 "out of the box." High Tier 4 if you include Eldritch Glaive. Low Tier 3 if you add Hellfire Warlock. High Tier 3 if you add a level in Binder or a Strongheart Vest (if allowed). Tier 2-ish if you go beyond that and use utter cheese (like Legacy Champion or Bloodlines) to boost Hellfire Warlock beyond the intended 3 levels.

As you can probably guess, I'm not in favor of that last step.

Dragonfire Adept has less cool flavor (unless you actually wanted a dragon theme), but overall is slightly easier to play and much easier to optimize to Tier 3. Slightly more versatile, at least until the Warlock gets its Level 12 ability.

Both of them are good classes -- don't break the game, and allow the basic fun of playing a caster but with minimum bookkeeping requirements.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-11-23, 10:05 PM
Warlock is a fine class. Low Tier 4 "out of the box." High Tier 4 if you include Eldritch Glaive. Low Tier 3 if you add Hellfire Warlock. High Tier 3 if you add a level in Binder or a Strongheart Vest (if allowed). Tier 2-ish if you go beyond that and use utter cheese (like Legacy Champion or Bloodlines) to boost Hellfire Warlock beyond the intended 3 levels.

As you can probably guess, I'm not in favor of that last step.

Dragonfire Adept has less cool flavor (unless you actually wanted a dragon theme), but overall is slightly easier to play and much easier to optimize to Tier 3. Slightly more versatile, at least until the Warlock gets its Level 12 ability.

Both of them are good classes -- don't break the game, and allow the basic fun of playing a caster but with minimum bookkeeping requirements.

DFA is super easy to refluff as any creature with a breath... ive done winter wolves before

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-23, 10:09 PM
I doubt Hellfire Warlock would move a warlock from Tier 4 to Tier 3, and merely adding damage would most definitely not bump something up to Tier 2.


Tier 2: Power on the level of Tier 1 classes (Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing), but no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining.

Warlock invocations invalidate a Tier 4 judgment, and Hellfire Warlock doesn't give any "I win" buttons.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-23, 10:09 PM
DFA is super easy to refluff as any creature with a breath... ive done winter wolves beforeWorship an Ogre after eating a decent sandwich?

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 10:41 PM
Warlock 4 / Binder 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Eldritch Disciple 10 / Helfire Warlock 3

Cast 9th level cleric spells at level 16

Progress to a 17th -level-equivalent Warlock.

Have Unstoppable Diplomancer abilities when you combine Naberius and Beguiling Influence.

You may have to dumb it down for me. Benefits of Ur-Priest/Eldritch disciple are?

And how do I cast 9th level cleric spells at 16 as well as getting my shooty shooty goodness from the Warlock?

Sorry, should of stated I'm novice, or n00b.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-23, 10:42 PM
Ur-Priest gives spells faster than cleric does. Eldritch Theurge gives spells and pewpewpew. Combined, you can get fast spells (9th-level spells at level 16) and your pewpewpew. Fairly simple.

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 10:45 PM
Ur-Priest gives spells faster than cleric does. Eldritch Theurge gives spells and pewpewpew. Combined, you can get fast spells (9th-level spells at level 16) and your pewpewpew. Fairly simple.

Bahaha pewpewpew, love it.

This seems like a fairly solid build, and casting level 9 cleric spells while I'm still deliciously evil sounds rather fantastic. Muahaha.

Radiun
2009-11-23, 11:05 PM
[...]Dragonfire Adept has less cool flavor (unless you actually wanted a dragon theme)[...]

Reflavour it to Drunken Flame Adept (requires some handwaving on the issue of amount of drink carried)

Dwarven brewmasters who's alcoholic beverages are use to spew flame.
New breath effects are new recipies.
Dwarven Frost Ale Breath for example.

Darrin
2009-11-23, 11:26 PM
How about the Tricklock?

Basicly, rogue + Warlock -> Arcane trickster.


Meh. I actually prefer Unseen Seer to Arcane Trickster. Ranger 1/Warlock 4/Avenger 1/Unseen Seer 10, and then maybe finish off with a little Arcane Trickster.

If you really want to get a few books thrown at you... Hengeyokai in Sparrow form, as a 1st level Warlock, gets 50' flight, +14 bonus on ranged touch attacks (+8 fine size, +6 Dex), and a nekkid AC of 24. Take Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk to enter an opponent's square without an AoO, and 50% of all attacks aimed at you hit your opponent instead. Oh, and he's flat-footed to all your attacks.

DaDude9211
2009-11-23, 11:38 PM
Warlock is a pretty solid class, especially if you're just starting out. It introduces you to general casting mechanics, while being easier in book-keeping. It also allows for more trading of powers for when you make your first-time inevitable bad decisions. If your DM is not capping Warlock, but is capping casters, you should be fine despite lack of experience. To your question, no barbarian doesn't stack will with Warlock. 1.Rage doesn't work well with most any caster really unless you're specifically making a 'rage mage'. 2.redundant DR. 3.You're already flying, Fast Movement isn't really helpful.

Rogue, on the otherhand, is a beautiful base class to multiclass it with. SA and Eldritch Blast both work in 30 ft., Half-BAB is useful, 8 skill points per level, on a Cha synergy class, +UMD? Yes please.

Now one second while I rant...


A wizard is Batman

God I hate it when people say that.

Wizards are not Batmen. Wizards rely on magic. Batman, more notably than anything in super-hero comparisons, is noted for having no super(natural) powers - just being a man in a costume that doesn't take trash off anyone.

Batman is a gestalt Warblade/Factotum that was rich and bought the entire MiC. D12 HD, more skilled than the rogue, uses martial arts, and uses Intelligence to overcome enemies (and also a tad bit of punching to the face).

Batman, my friends, is not a simple single-class spellcaster. AMFs stop casters. Batman will walk into your AMF and strangle you to death with his bear hands if he needs to.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-23, 11:43 PM
While the Ability Damage Reduction isn't immunity, you still don't take the damage, which goes against the intent of the class ability. Yes, by RAW, the hellfire bonus isn't dependent on actually taking the damage, but according to the fluff, you have to pay the cost (Con damage) to use hellfire.


By my understanding, when you bind naberious or shape the strong heart vest, you are not gaining inmunity, you take the damage and then you heal it, right?

tyckspoon
2009-11-23, 11:49 PM
I doubt Hellfire Warlock would move a warlock from Tier 4 to Tier 3, and merely adding damage would most definitely not bump something up to Tier 2.


Warlock invocations invalidate a Tier 4 judgment, and Hellfire Warlock doesn't give any "I win" buttons.

I think low-end Tier 3 is about right for a Hellfire Warlock. Hellfire buffs up the damage output to 'acceptably good at burning the crap out of things', and near-unique class abilities for UMD (take 10! That's really almost impossible to get otherwise, and nowhere near as early as the Warlock gets it) and crafting cover 'do everything else but not as well.' Plus whatever other invocations you pick.

Admiral Squish
2009-11-24, 12:58 AM
On the subjects of warlocks, I have one word: Silverclawshift.

That is all.

gdiddy
2009-11-24, 01:49 AM
You may have to dumb it down for me. Benefits of Ur-Priest/Eldritch disciple are?

And how do I cast 9th level cleric spells at 16 as well as getting my shooty shooty goodness from the Warlock?

Sorry, should of stated I'm novice, or n00b.

Ur Priest: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/prestige2.pl?Ur-Priest

E. D.: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70902

Eldritch Disciple also has a class feature that let's you HEAL with your eldritch blast. Between the fix-alls as a cleric, and the fact you can heal possibly infinite HP per day, the party should never have any down time ever again.

Admiral Squish
2009-11-24, 01:57 AM
Ur Priest: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/prestige2.pl?Ur-Priest

E. D.: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70902

Eldritch Disciple also has a class feature that let's you HEAL with your eldritch blast. Between the fix-alls as a cleric, and the fact you can heal possibly infinite HP per day, the party should never have any down time ever again.

The heal-blast is powered by turn attempts, if I'm not mistaken, so there IS a limiter there.

gdiddy
2009-11-24, 02:04 AM
That's what the night stick is for...among other things.

Admiral Squish
2009-11-24, 02:05 AM
That's what the night stick is for...among other things.

Granted, not MUCH of one, but still.