The Plutonian (Irredeemable) vs. Superman

[Leliel]

Well, for those of you who have read Irredeemable, you know that the Plutonian is basically an evil (as in, worse than Johan Liebert from Monster) version of Superman.

This naturally begs the question: If they ever met, who would win?

So, scenario:

Due to a dimensional hole, Superman is transported to the Irredeemable universe, where he hears about the Plutonian, and since they are more or less complete opposites in personality, Supes ends up helping the heroes of Irredeemable stop him.

The Rules:

1. Kryptonite doesn't exist here, so no cheating by the Plutonian with that.

2. Superman, being Superman, has help from the mundanes. Not that it will help hurt the Plutonian, but it may annoy him.

[AstralFire]

I know nothing about this character. Wikify me, captain. Also, I'd also rule out variable star effects - red sun has an inconsistent portrayal (ranging from insta-nullify to 'it just doesn't power him up'), while Superman can go crazy when he wants to by jumping into a yellow or better star for a supercharge.

[Leliel]

OK.

Here's the link to the series itself. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredeemable)

Basically, the Plutonian is more-or-less a completely monstrous character with no problem with killing thousands of innocents in the apparent attempt to prove that humans are inherently bastards. He has abilities similar to Superman-laser vision, nigh-invulnerability, etc-but we haven't seem weaknesses of his yet.

[AstralFire]

Mark Waid: Pushing the envelope, years after it was already pushed. :|

Well, if he's a direct expy in a similar sort of world, then I imagine that in a one-on-one fight, with no sundip shenanigans, Plutonian'd win; part of Superman's essential character is that he holds back, and from the Wiki, he sounds like he's Superman but ruthless and crap. No reason -to- hold back.

[Drakyn]

Mark Waid: Pushing the envelope, years after it was already pushed. :|

Well, if he's a direct expy in a similar sort of world, then I imagine that in a one-on-one fight, with no sundip shenanigans, Plutonian'd win; part of Superman's essential character is that he holds back, and from the Wiki, he sounds like he's Superman but ruthless and crap. No reason -to- hold back.

Recycling things I've heard other people say, there's two broad categories: people who say it's another "What if.....Superman was EVILLLL!?!?!?" story, and people who say it's a look at the assumption many superhero origin stories make, which is that they will accept great power/reponsibility and be a good icon of truth justice and whoever's way and somehow manage to mentally handle this with only a few issues every couple years devoted to wangsting about it.
I haven't read it and don't particularly know who's right. There's no doubt that the latter is the intent, but if it isn't pulling it off correctly it's going to be the former.

On the matchup itself, I think it's interesting, because they're both so screwed up but in completely different ways and Superman's looniness is so much more understated, and in this case is more of a liability. I agree with AstralFire.

[Revlid]

Thing is, Superman fought against an evil version of himself quite recently, and won.

Why? Because he holds back.

See, when Superman fights a giant robot, or an alien invasion fleet, or a degenerated clone of himself, or a lovecraftian supercomputer, or even a fellow superhero he's holding back. This forces him to develop his skills in order to compensate, and ultimately leads to him being a better fighter and hero than someone who didn't, and just let their absurd powers do all the work - like his evil counterpart.

See, Superman holding back isn't a weakness. It's a strength. It gives him an ability an evil version of him doesn't have - the ability to reveal that I Am Not Left Handed (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IAmNotLeftHanded).

Superman... Superman is a sane Zaraki Kenpachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/311/16/). Plutonian is just a flying brick on an ego trip.

[horngeek]

Superman... Superman is a sane Zaraki Kenpachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/311/16/).

That is full of win.

Superman wins, unless Plutonian has access to magic.

Because magic goes right through Superman's protection.

[Shadowbane]

Superman... Superman is a sane Zaraki Kenpachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/311/16/). Plutonian is just a flying brick on an ego trip.

I'm putting this on my facebook.

[Drakyn]

Thing is, Superman fought against an evil version of himself quite recently, and won.

Why? Because he holds back.

See, when Superman fights a giant robot, or an alien invasion fleet, or a degenerated clone of himself, or a lovecraftian supercomputer, or even a fellow superhero he's holding back. This forces him to develop his skills in order to compensate, and ultimately leads to him being a better fighter and hero than someone who didn't, and just let their absurd powers do all the work - like his evil counterpart.

See, Superman holding back isn't a weakness. It's a strength. It gives him an ability an evil version of him doesn't have - the ability to reveal that I Am Not Left Handed (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IAmNotLeftHanded).

Superman... Superman is a sane Zaraki Kenpachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/311/16/). Plutonian is just a flying brick on an ego trip.

So the argument is that Superman fights better at full power because he spends almost all his time fighting at low power, thus ensuring that he's going to far less experienced at fighting at full power than anybody else who is capable of it.

If two people start punching each other as hard as they can, and they're exactly as strong as the other, and one of them makes a practice of deliberately pulling hits...I'd expect him to have MORE trouble hitting extra-hard because he's fighting against an entire lifetime of habit. Superman pulling shots is just one of the writer-wanks they have to use to justify the way his being as strong as he needs to be for any given story.

On the other hand, a completely different way to look at it is that Plutonian basically WAS Superman until a short time ago, and that he apparently was less effective himself then (given that supervillains were capable of existing for more than six months before retiring in despair), so he's probably doing the exact same thing Superman does: constantly mess around without using everything he's got, then finally busting loose when he thinks it really matters. Which in this case happened in a particular psychopathic way. Looking at it from this angle, Plutonian is doing the exact same thing as you identified Superman as doing, only he's had a week or so of windup time and is using his "HERE IS THE CHANCE TO SHOW HOW POWERFUL I REALLY AM" moment to murder people.

EDIT: On the OTHER hand, Plutonian may not exactly be used to fighting anyone who can actually hurt him.
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/1082/36506481.jpghttp://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7555/27543535.jpg
Wuss.
So all in all, it's either:
(A): Superman loses because he's holding back/used to holding back constantly.
(B): Plutonian loses because he's a big fat wuss.
(C): They blow each other up and the world's superhumans, traumatized by the event, vow off wearing brightly coloured tights in battle.

[kpenguin]

Superman... Superman is a sane Zaraki Kenpachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/311/16/).

If I was in the habit of sigging people, this would be something I would sig. :smallbiggrin:

[AstralFire]

Thing is, Superman fought against an evil version of himself quite recently, and won.

Why? Because he holds back.

See, when Superman fights a giant robot, or an alien invasion fleet, or a degenerated clone of himself, or a lovecraftian supercomputer, or even a fellow superhero he's holding back. This forces him to develop his skills in order to compensate, and ultimately leads to him being a better fighter and hero than someone who didn't, and just let their absurd powers do all the work - like his evil counterpart.

See, Superman holding back isn't a weakness. It's a strength. It gives him an ability an evil version of him doesn't have - the ability to reveal that I Am Not Left Handed (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IAmNotLeftHanded).

Superman... Superman is a sane Zaraki Kenpachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/311/16/). Plutonian is just a flying brick on an ego trip.

I don't buy it. I'm a huge Superman fan, but holding back doesn't work the way Shonen Anime likes to think it does. I mean, to an extent - yes, it requires more skill, and Superman -is- quite a skilled battler. He's one of the best in his power class, which is part of why he can pull off wins on creatures with more brute strength or power set than he. But done consistently, it becomes a 'mental muscle' you don't know how to use very well.

Between two people with the exact same physical capabilities and skills, the one with the killer instinct wins more times than not. Without more information, I can only assume that the Plutonian, as an expy of superman, sports the same level of martial skill and power set.

[WitchSlayer]

Superman. Why?
http://i50.tinypic.com/nd78tc.jpg
Because he knows the Fist of the North Star.

[RandomNPC]

he's holding back. This forces him to develop his skills in order to compensate, and ultimately leads to him being a better fighter and hero than someone who didn't, and just let their absurd powers do all the work - like his evil counterpart.

See, Superman holding back isn't a weakness. It's a strength. It gives him an ability an evil version of him doesn't have - the ability to reveal that I Am Not Left Handed (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IAmNotLeftHanded).

so when doomsday came down and beat the tar out of superman you're telling me this holding back worked?

If superman knew martial arts he could have countered just about everything doomsday tossed his way. with supes being the fastest non-speedster (the flash) and one of the strongest, if he knew kung fu, or any hand to hand really, he would have lived. (except the writers wanted to kill him)

[Green Bean]

so when doomsday came down and beat the tar out of superman you're telling me this holding back worked?

If superman knew martial arts he could have countered just about everything doomsday tossed his way. with supes being the fastest non-speedster (the flash) and one of the strongest, if he knew kung fu, or any hand to hand really, he would have lived. (except the writers wanted to kill him)

Doomsday is much stronger and tougher than Superman. The thing's beaten Darkseid to a pulp, and took a direct hit from his Omega Beams without a scratch. His healing factor allows him to adapt to anything used to defeat him so it will no longer work on him. In his first appearance, he beat the unholy hell out of a whole team of superheroes, including Maxima, who's got psychic powers and is almost as strong as Superman, and Orion, who's not only as strong and tough as Superman, but a trained warrior.

If anything, the fact that Superman stalemated Doomsday's pretty much shows the opposite of what you think; the Big Blue Boyscout's got a way of dealing with people above his weight class.

[Dervag]

That does raise an interesting question, though: going toe to toe with opponents beyond his weight class, why doesn't he use his super-speed more effectively?

Frankly, I've always seen Superman as being relatively light on technique, because he doesn't need technique except against a few unusual opponents. Being who he is he might train in technique just so that he'll have an edge when he has to fight one of the few people in the multiverse that only he can fight at all (Darkseid, for instance). But that could just be me.

[Tavar]

That does raise an interesting question, though: going toe to toe with opponents beyond his weight class, why doesn't he use his super-speed more effectively?
Now, I don't really read comics that much, but perhaps while he can go really fast, he lacks the capability to actually function at that speed: kinda like how cars going extreme speeds can easily go out of control.

[kpenguin]

So he has Flash's speed but without the fast thinking to match?

[Tavar]

So he has Flash's speed but without the fast thinking to match?

Yes. Or, possibly, he lacks the speed force. Amounts to the same thing.

[Drakyn]

Or to get rather meta, it's for the same reason the Flash hasn't solved every problem on the planet twice: plot. Compounded by fatal multiple writer syndrome.

[Haven]

Frankly, I've always seen Superman as being relatively light on technique, because he doesn't need technique except against a few unusual opponents. Being who he is he might train in technique just so that he'll have an edge when he has to fight one of the few people in the multiverse that only he can fight at all (Darkseid, for instance). But that could just be me.

It's been made clear a few times that Superman does have legitimate skill. Not to Batman's extent, but enough to be a decent Badass Normal when deprived of powers, beat off a whole gang of people at his power level but less experienced (the recent "New Krypton" arc), or beat enemies who are stronger than him.

Besides that, a quick googling shows that the latest issue is apparently the first time in the miniseries Plutonian was in danger, which leads to "a look of pain, shock and fear". Superman's more used to facing enemies in his weight class, so I'll give it to him.

[Kris Strife]

Watch JLU. Supes uses his superspeed in combat, on Darkseid in his 'World of Cardboard' speach, and while fighting Captain Atom while rescuing The Question.

The reason he doesn't dodge more often is because 1: Most of the time, why bother? and 2: Because if it doesn't hit him, it might him someone or something else who won't live through it.

[kpenguin]

JL also shows that he has skills even when unpowered. See the epi where he's sent forward in time and loses his powers due to red sun radiation.

[Somebloke]

Superman will win, simply because he's the goshdarned Superman.

I think that with relatively equal powers thrown into the mix, Superman's mental stability- the lack of which was the reason behind the Plutonian's fall- will prevail.

[Dervag]

Watch JLU. Supes uses his superspeed in combat, on Darkseid in his 'World of Cardboard' speach, and while fighting Captain Atom while rescuing The Question.

The reason he doesn't dodge more often is because 1: Most of the time, why bother? and 2: Because if it doesn't hit him, it might him someone or something else who won't live through it.The problem with that is that he sits there and takes it even in situations where it doesn't make sense. He uses superspeed, but not nearly as much as I'd expect given his situation.

That "why bother" question is a good illustration of why I think Superman is relatively light on technique, compared to the sort of badass-normals and trained-from-infancy warriors who make up the baseline of fighters in comic books. While he does occasionally fight in his weight class, he spends most of his time dealing with attacks he can shrug off, in situations where he's more worried about the collateral damage caused by his own powers than he is with avoiding harm and dealing it to the enemy.

(For his own take on the problem, think about the World of Cardboard speech).

Now, he still has a lot more combat experience than most, even if we only consider cases where he's fighting in his own weight class. And he's had the opportunity to train in hand to hand techniques with the best, insofar as he can train with someone who's as fragile as candyfloss compared to him. But I don't think it's rubbed off on him to the same extent that it would if he spent more of his time worrying about comparably powerful enemies.

[Somebloke]

Does the Plutonian have any experience in dealing with comparative enemies?

So far as I understand it the Plutonian is basically a man who was Superman but couldn't handle the mental and moral stresses. So by default he is inferior. This will eventually show itself in a drawn-out fight (can there be anyy other kind with these two)?

[Dienekes]

So far as I understand it the Plutonian is basically a man who was Superman but couldn't handle the mental and moral stresses. So by default he is inferior. This will eventually show itself in a drawn-out fight (can there be anyy other kind with these two)?

I must disagree with this reasoning, simply because of the amount of stories Supes has "gone rogue" in would imply he is just as fallible, but luckily he hasn't fallen yet in this incarnation.

Also the very idea that a fall to evil inherently makes one weaker I find simply wrong.

[Fortuna]

I am forced to concur. Although I know little about either side of this battle, I feel that a fall to evil is weaker in one way. Only one way, and that a way which will never come up in combat (barring stupid idiot writers who need a reason for Superman to win). And also, it is just as logical to buy into the "I am stronger because I am not limited by society" idea as "I am stronger because I keep myself on the straight and narrow."

[Setra]

I am forced to concur. Although I know little about either side of this battle, I feel that a fall to evil is weaker in one way. Only one way, and that a way which will never come up in combat (barring stupid idiot writers who need a reason for Superman to win). And also, it is just as logical to buy into the "I am stronger because I am not limited by society" idea as "I am stronger because I keep myself on the straight and narrow."
It's arguable that one who did not fall to evil probably has more determination, if nothing else.. In a fight between equals, that could be what does it.. but one problem.

If the bad guy can take hostages, that's like.. unlimited free shots against Superman, assuming he's allowed to take Hostages anyways.

[Somebloke]

I must disagree with this reasoning, simply because of the amount of stories Supes has "gone rogue" in would imply he is just as fallible, but luckily he hasn't fallen yet in this incarnation.

Also the very idea that a fall to evil inherently makes one weaker I find simply wrong.Except that the creator has stated outright that the concept for Irredeemable was based around the question "What if Superman was not emotionally equipped for the job?" Superman has gone rogue and sometimes doubted but the Plutonian lost it utterly and became...well, Irredeemable. Much of the story revolves around the crushing burden of responsibility that he felt as a hero. This was a fall, not a leap.

The Plutonian is weaker than Superman, and this will be decisive.

[chiasaur11]

I must disagree with this reasoning, simply because of the amount of stories Supes has "gone rogue" in would imply he is just as fallible, but luckily he hasn't fallen yet in this incarnation.

Also the very idea that a fall to evil inherently makes one weaker I find simply wrong.

Oh?

Read issue #666. Trust me, it settles that particular argument.

[Tavar]

Can you give a summary for those of us how lack any issues, much less that specific one?

[chiasaur11]

Right, sorry.

Plot goes like this:

Ominous omens. Superman has unsettling dreams of THE END OF THE WORLD with him as the cause. And then he goes to sleep again, and dreams...

Well, he dreams of cutting loose, killing everybody in various hilarious ways, and then going to Hell, where, GASP! It turns out a Kryptonian demon survived the destruction of Krypton and set up a dream where Supes could cut loose consequence free so as to corrupt him. And it seems to have worked.

Only, well, it didn't. The whole "Evil Superman" bit was a facade created by Doctor Fate so Supes could sneak right into the center of hell, and, as the local powers work on corruption, he points out he could hand everyone there their collective hindquarters. He doesn't, of course, as Hell would then start hitting other people afterword as payback, but the potential was there.

So, essentially, even when everybody's trying for it, main universe Superman is all but incorruptible. So, yeah.

Worth getting if you see it. Walt Simonson art, Kurt Busiek writing, and Superdickery of the highest caliber.

[Fortuna]

Except that the creator has stated outright that the concept for Irredeemable was based around the question "What if Superman was not emotionally equipped for the job?"

And? Not emotionally equipped for the job does not equate to "unable to hold his own in a fight," assuming an absence of narrativium.


Plot stuff

Again, this does not support your argument. Again, in the absence of any narrativium emotion does not enter the question. What I can see is the argument that Superman is used to fighting at or above his weight class, but that is a different story altogether. I can also see the ruthlessness of Plutonian being a significant advantage. I cannot, however, see one of them winning because of moral fibre.

[chiasaur11]

Sorry if that was unclear. That was a response to questions regarding Big Blue and moral failings.

Sheer power is a different question altogether, one I was not attempting to address.

[Oslecamo]

So, essentially, even when everybody's trying for it, main universe Superman is all but incorruptible. So, yeah.


And let's not forget that most recent comic, where every villain ganks on superman, try to kill his friends, actualy kill Lois Lane, and even then he resists snaping and killing all those bastards. He actualy defeats them with ease despite they all being mind controled and coordinated to take down supes!

(of course, in the end it's shown that Lois didn't actualy die)

[Fortuna]

Ah. Sorry chiasaur, I misunderstood.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I first thought of this thread with regard to Aqua Teen Hunger Force's Plutonians. This debate is much less interesting.

[Somebloke]

And? Not emotionally equipped for the job does not equate to "unable to hold his own in a fight," assuming an absence of narrativium.



Again, this does not support your argument. Again, in the absence of any narrativium emotion does not enter the question. What I can see is the argument that Superman is used to fighting at or above his weight class, but that is a different story altogether. I can also see the ruthlessness of Plutonian being a significant advantage. I cannot, however, see one of them winning because of moral fibre.

My point is that Superman is mentally more stable and emotionally stronger. Since the two are practically the same physically, this may well be the deciding factor in any sort of drawn-out battle. There are plenty of situations where Superman's mental strength was a decisive factor in epic fights.

[taltamir]

superman wins on account of being superman... once he "reset" the DC multiverse by punching reality so hard it changed to suit his desires (well, mostly).
There is no way the authors will have superman lose.

[LuisDantas]

Plutonian has consistently been depicted as a very conflicted individual who just Can't Take It Anymore. It has been made clear time and again that he has a deep, even desperate need to feel loved and accepted. His childhood, particularly, was very unhappy due to a succession of adoptive homes that just didn't know how to deal with such a powerful, dangerous (albeit well-meaning) child.

Some flashbacks show that he actually falls short on ethics and exagerated his more positive traits in order to be better accepted. It did not really work all that well.

On the other hand, he is not all that unstoppable either. Survivor very nearly defeated him basically alone, and Qubit and Hornet seem to be both capable of stopping him with the appropriate resources.

It seems to me that ultimately his defeat will be psychological in nature. In fact, he is arguably doing his best to create such a situation.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

It seems that if they're at about equal strength, the one significantly more willing kill the other in cold blood will take it home.

[Tengu_temp]

No matter who wins, you can bet that zombie threads will feast on the corpse of the loser.

[WitchSlayer]

No matter who wins, you can bet that zombie threads will feast on the corpse of the loser.

Unless both Superman and the Plutonian are NECROMANCERS! of clothes.

Or one could say "Threads"

[kpenguin]

The Modguin: Looks thread necromancy to me. Thread closed.