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WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 11:01 PM
I'm curious, with all books available.

What build can you come up with, not homebrew, but utilise from each book, any book, any source material, that never hits anything.

I mean direct damage melee, and direct damage arcane. But still pulls off being a successful party member.

I don't want it to include:

Mage with all utility spells
Rogue
Beguiler

This is sheerly curiousity. What is the build and why does it function and how does it assist the party as a whole, how would it still gain a share of experience

Is there such a build?

Enjoy. :-)

Mongoose87
2009-11-23, 11:02 PM
There's a PRC, Apostle of Peace, built around it. Book of Exalted Deeds.

taltamir
2009-11-23, 11:03 PM
define pacifist.

Is casting flesh to stone on enemy, for example, ok?

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 11:05 PM
define pacifist.

Is casting flesh to stone on enemy, for example, ok?

*thinks*

Pacifist, unable to harm another living soul directly. Indirectly, and take that how you will, is fine.

Self defense is acceptable, harm is not.

Thus, Wall of Blades would be acceptable, as it takes an enemy wading in to harm themselves.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-23, 11:05 PM
Given the parameters, diplomancer or uber-healbot would likely be effective builds.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-23, 11:06 PM
Sorcerer Malconvoker, refluffed. You unwillingly tap the raw power of the cosmos whenever threatened in order to spawn the legions of hell to defend yourself. You don't want to, but it happens anyways.

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 11:06 PM
There's a PRC, Apostle of Peace, built around it. Book of Exalted Deeds.

But how would you get to the PrC without actually harming anyone? :-)

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 11:08 PM
Sorcerer Malconvoker, refluffed. You unwillingly tap the raw power of the cosmos whenever threatened in order to spawn the legions of hell to defend yourself. You don't want to, but it happens anyways.

Like a bombardier beetle ;-)

However summoning would still be considered direct damage. I know I'm being picky. I'm just really curious as to whether you could gain levels without DIRECTLY and WILFULLY harming anything the entire game.


Given the parameters, diplomancer or uber-healbot would likely be effective builds.

But how would one get EXP? Except role play bonuses.

Toliudar
2009-11-23, 11:08 PM
No problem.

Focused Specialist Conjuror & Malconvoker
Summon Elemental Reserve Feat

Why attack things, when you can get others to do it for you? The build contributes tanking, scouting, and a variety of effects through summoned creatures. I guess you don't HAVE to take utility spells if you don't want to.

Edit: Seriously ninja'ed.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-23, 11:09 PM
Diplomancer overcomes challenges, getting XP. Healbot helps party, and gets a share of the XP. Or you could just play a utility mage?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-23, 11:10 PM
Play a Marshal Diplomancer.

If they get past the diplomacy, use Intimidate to lock them in place.

Toliudar
2009-11-23, 11:11 PM
Revised answer: Talk to the DM and make sure that objectives can be met without killing things. A nonviolent game is possible, but ignores a lot of mechanics in the game, and works best if everyone's in on the effort.

playswithfire
2009-11-23, 11:11 PM
Can I do nonlethal damage?

If so, a justiciar can work pretty well.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-23, 11:14 PM
Suggested by my brother, if you're going to call spawning demons from the depths of hell to eat opponents' souls 'non-pacifist':

Knight taking the Total Defense action while TWFing a +5 Defending Sword and +5 Tower Shield with +5 Defending Spikes on it. And wearing +5 armor. Good luck.

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 11:15 PM
Can I do nonlethal damage?

If so, a justiciar can work pretty well.

Didn't even contemplate non lethal damage. But let's say no, sheerly as Pacifists can't really say:

Well look guys, I only hit him, I didn't stab him....Y'know? Guys?

lol.

Summoning, again kind of direct and wilful. If you summon a horde of demons to kill an animal, you've still killed that animal.

Okay so basically the consensus is, you can't play a Pacifist character unless he's a diplomat or a healbot? Bugger.

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 11:16 PM
Suggested by my brother, if you're going to call spawning demons from the depths of hell to eat opponents' souls 'non-pacifist':

Knight taking the Total Defense action while TWFing a +5 Defending Sword and +5 Tower Shield with +5 Defending Spikes on it. And wearing +5 armor. Good luck.

Ohhhhh I like.

Have Blade Barrier cast on you too.

Dwarven defender...I haven't actually looked into that class but it seems to fit the bill too? Although...Smushing anything that comes close is very antipacifist. Also not being able to move is just....Blargh.

taltamir
2009-11-23, 11:19 PM
well... if you summon a wall of blades in front of someone, he sees that as a combat act (most likely) and thinks you will kill him with the next action. He takes the only possible chance of surviving... run through the wall and take you out. He instead takes enough damage from it to die.

You still willfully killed him. you are just washing your hands off of it by saying "he ran into my fist... err, my wall of blades".

I would imagine a pacifist saying things like "can't we all just get along" *roll diplomacy*
or "surrender and noone has to be hurt" *diplomacy / intimidate*'
etc

Mando Knight
2009-11-23, 11:19 PM
Okay so basically the consensus is, you can't play a Pacifist character unless he's a diplomat or a healbot? Bugger.

The consensus is: you can't be a useful pacifist character in a combat situation without being a medic, diplomat, or a general-utility/skills kind of guy.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-23, 11:21 PM
And diplomat is a rather vague term, encompassing many types of characters.

What are the motivations for being a pacifist? Distaste for combat? Spirituality?

taltamir
2009-11-23, 11:21 PM
The consensus is: you can't be a useful pacifist character in a combat situation without being a medic, diplomat, or a general-utility/skills kind of guy.

and that on the very loose definition of pacifist, where pacifist is a person who:
1. helps other people kill people
2. holds people down while other people kill them
3. actively protects a person killing people while he is killing people.
4. etc.

Of course you can play a PACIFIST... but playing a USEFUL in COMBAT pacifist sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Take the flying nitwit from order of the stick... whatshername, roy's girlfriend... she is a pacifist... of no use in combat though.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-23, 11:23 PM
The consensus is: you can't be a useful pacifist character in a combat situation without being a medic, diplomat, or a general-utility/skills kind of guy.Again, Knight. The class is designed to remove enemies from combat with others and focus them on you.

Not attacking with a melee class does, I admit, put a damper on things. Maybe use one of the combat maneuvers instead.

Also, the point of my Sorc suggestion was that the character can be pacifist even if the player isn't. The Sorc doesn't want the demons to appear, he wants to negotiate. The Demons, however, have other ideas.

taltamir
2009-11-23, 11:26 PM
Again, Knight. The class is designed to remove enemies from combat with others and focus them on you.

Not attacking with a melee class does, I admit, put a damper on things. Maybe use one of the combat maneuvers instead.

Also, the point of my Sorc suggestion was that the character can be pacifist even if the player isn't. The Sorc doesn't want the demons to appear, he wants to negotiate. The Demons, however, have other ideas.

now that is an awesome twist...
Loreen summons a demon subconsciously. she begs it to leave her alone and stop killing people, it ignores her pleas and slays her enemies...

Very nice twist.

Sploosh
2009-11-23, 11:28 PM
I don't want it to include:

Mage with all utility spells
Rogue
Beguiler


Mind if I ask why these are out of the question? If you had to pick a non diplomancer/healbot I would put all my chips on the table on a beguiler. You can be super useful, super awesome and still, super pacificistic.

Plus, who doesnt like jedi beguiler mind tricks?

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 11:31 PM
Mind if I ask why these are out of the question? If you had to pick a non diplomancer/healbot I would put all my chips on the table on a beguiler. You can be super useful, super awesome and still, super pacificistic.

Plus, who doesnt like jedi beguiler mind tricks?

Because, dear friend, I wanted people to be creative.

Rogue, obvious for his lockpick, traps and hide abilities.
Utility mage...Well...Speaks for itself right?
Beguiler, same as utility mage.

Creative was a must on this one.

Like the Knight idea. Take all the damage away from team mates, helps the party succeed, should earn exp, and didn't hurt a thing. Especially if he has Blade Barrier or Wall of Blades or some other such "Hurt the attacker" thing.

Convuluted but works.

Rogue, utility and Beguiler were all the most obvious choices.

dspeyer
2009-11-23, 11:34 PM
How about a sneak?

"Kill the red dragon? Do I look stupid? I just smuggled the best bits of his horde out under his nose in my bag of holding."

An illusionist?

"You can kill me.... when you figure out which me is real. No, not that one. Or that one. Are you getting tired yet? No? Ok, I'll wait until you do."

Combine them into a trickster?

"So, you're going to attack me? What a shame that I stole your real sword last night. That's a poisonous snake under a glamour. Or is it?"

You banned beguiler, so let's call these factotums, maybe with a few levels in wizard(illusionist).

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-23, 11:37 PM
Beguiler with sacred vow and vow of non-violence, enough said.
You can charm them into stop attakingh you, negotiate with them, restrain them, enchantment and ilussions are the schools you want.

Vow of non-violence increases the DC of your non-damaging spells, and sacred vow is a prerequisite.


oh BTW both are from the book of exalted deeds

crazedloon
2009-11-23, 11:39 PM
grappler(monk/psi warrior/ whatever)/reaping mauler 5/Apostle of Peace

just grab your opponent and put him to sleep or wait until he doesn't want to fight anymore :smallwink:

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 11:42 PM
Beguiler with sacred vow and vow of non-violence, enough said.
You can charm them into stop attakingh you, negotiate with them, restrain them, enchantment and ilussions are the schools you want.

Vow of non-violence increases the DC of your non-damaging spells, and sacred vow is a prerequisite.


oh BTW both are from the book of exalted deeds

Okay so you ignored the Beguiler big no no directive, however you've used an interesting twist on it. A very interesting one. I especially like the raised DC of the non-damaging spells.

Hrrmmmm.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-23, 11:49 PM
Okay so you ignored the Beguiler big no no directive, however you've used an interesting twist on it. A very interesting one. I especially like the raised DC of the non-damaging spells.

Hrrmmmm.

Sorry I misread the first post, I thought you were wanting to use beguiler my bad :redface:

WorldWalker
2009-11-23, 11:50 PM
Sorry I misread the first post, I thought you were wanting to use beguiler my bad :redface:

No worries at all. You still used a rather creative flair.

The raised DC on the non damaging spells was particularly useful.

However due to the non beguiler directive, sadly out of the race. lol.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-23, 11:52 PM
No worries at all. You still used a rather creative flair.

The raised DC on the non damaging spells was particularly useful.

However due to the non beguiler directive, sadly out of the race. lol.

Well, I don't want to take credits for the work of others, I read that advise on the beguiler Handbook over at BG.

Sploosh
2009-11-24, 12:04 AM
What level and amount of optimization are we talking about here? Is the DM prone to variety in encounters?

I mean, a simple trip/disarm monkey could be bumped up enough to have the standard 30 feet chain fighter reach and just trip and disarm anything (without hitting them) who gets close.

Also though, there is a lot of generalizing here. "Utility casters" is a very large chunk of things. I mean you can break it down to "Hit things" "Nukes things" "Does useful stuff" "Casts useful stuff".

You really leave out a lot of fun and varied options by doing that since all you leave is taking the "hit things" and a few combos like the Tasha monk, the chain fighter, the diplomancer and the buff/healbot.

Your utility casters could range from a transmutation mage who turns weapons or hostiles into puppies, someone who just does the usual pimping of the universe to alter terrain (standard cloud spells, ect.. maybe a druid using plants and wall of thorns for fun and uniqueness), a diviner who sets booby traps for things that are going to come, ect..

I am personally fond of a sneaky diviner using pits, poisons (BoED says there are "good" poisons) when it comes to these casters.

You could also take leadership and use followers to "avoid getting your hands dirty" kind of thing but you may argue "That is still directly killing." I would say that pinning, tripping or otherwise impeding someone while your friends kill things is the same.

You could take a swordsage or Warblade and just run around throwing people away from your team mates.

You could be a "blaster" who nukes weapons and whatnot using shatter, backbiter, disintegrate, ect..

An exalted cleric who bumps their grapple and runs up to things and hugs them while using their non violence aura to wear them down while you discuss the wonders of your god. (THis is a cross between buffbot/grappler where I think you could get a little middle ground and worse comes to worse a bit of D-Meta will fix it.)

Leon
2009-11-24, 12:17 AM
Archivist

That gives you the potential to pull in all the helpful divine spells and you have some nifty abilities to help the party defeat the foe even if you never lay a hand on them.

Adonis1x23
2009-11-24, 12:27 AM
How about a Psion that's discipline is telepathy, that takes egoist and nomad powers secondary and tertiary. He can heal, teleport, and take over anything with an intelligence score.

Take Illithid Heritage feats to raise the DC for compulsion powers, get extra powers, and an unnamed bonus to all saves.

Take a level in the Mindbender prestiege class, if psionics/magic is transparent, so you can dominate all intelligent creatures, despite language. Take mindsight from lords of madness to detect any int creature within a 100 ft(with telepathy from Mindbender.)

Take some Expanded Knowledge feats to get some of the good powers from egoist and nomad.

WorldWalker
2009-11-24, 12:46 AM
Oh you guys are very, very good. lol.

Zaq
2009-11-24, 03:00 AM
Is debuffing and BC okay? A Shadowcaster can get plenty of good non-damaging debuff/BC mysteries... due to the nature of Paths, you'll probably end up with at least one or two mysteries that you can't use because they do damage or non-lethal damage (for example, the Apprentice level path Dark Terrain gives the phenomenally useful Clinging Darkness and the handy Carpet of Shadow, but you also get the damaging Black Fire.), but that's the sacrifice you make.

Also, a Dragonfire Adept can get a whole bunch of fun non-damaging debuff breath weapons (sickening breath, weakening breath, slow breath, sleep breath, etc.), with a few good debuff/BC invocations (darkness, breath of the night, frightful presence, etc.). You'll still have at least your fire breath weapon, but you'll never have to use it if you don't want to.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-11-24, 09:27 AM
so after reading the posts all i can think about is a mage/druid/clerc/other caster who specialises in buffing... more specificaly damage shields.
I know with the spell compendium there are a few out there...

But you can totaly play a buffer and be a pacifist... buffers are great.
I <3 them alot.


or play an illusionist.

Person_Man
2009-11-24, 09:43 AM
Saint Bertold
Whatever 3/Knight 4/Apostle of Peace 4/Full Caster Progression PrC X

Saint Bertold should only be played by a mature player, interested in a lot of roleplaying, with an all Good group interested in a challenge. Your Vows have all sorts of ridiculous pre-conditions, such as taking all helpless or incapacitated living enemies prisoner instead of killing them. So again, do not play this build unless everyone in your party is on board with it. That said, hereís how it works:

Whatever 3 can be anything with Concentration (prereq for Apostle of Peace) as a class Skill. A mix of Paladin, Binder, Incarnate, and/or any Skill Monkey class might be a good idea.

Knight gives you Test of Mettle.

Apostle of Peace (Book of Exalted Deeds) offers ridiculously fast casting, giving you 9th level spells at ECL 16, albeit from a somewhat limited list. It also gives you Turn Undead, a no Save Calm Emotions, and Censure Demons. Nothing but spells after 4 levels though, so head into any other PrC that offers full caster progression.

The catch is that you need to take Sacred Vow, Vow of Peace, Vow of Non-Violence, and Vow of Poverty.

Vow of Peace and Vow of Non-Violence boosts the Save DCs of all of your abilities and spells (including Test of Mettle), which makes weapons break against you, and gives you other abilities.

So your combos are rather strait forward. Use Test of Mettle, and enemies will hopelessly attack you, breaking their weapons against you. Your friends can incapacitate those who aren't effected, and then focus on the people who are one at a time. If an enemy isnít effected by Test of Mettle, you can use Calm Emotions, Skills, or the many spells at your disposal.

streakster
2009-11-24, 09:56 AM
A dragonfire adept could work.They have invocations that change their breath to status effects - so I could leave swaths of the battlefield sickened, panicked, entangled, asleep, etc, and never have to deal damage myself.

Killer Angel
2009-11-24, 09:56 AM
Of course you can play a PACIFIST... but playing a USEFUL in COMBAT pacifist sounds like an oxymoron to me.


It depends on how much you're pacifist.
I played a sorcerer who didn't kill no one, and who didn't even spill blood, to keep his Karma clean. But he helped his companion with no remorse, so Haste, Grease, Web, etc.

Generally, you can do a Buffer-Debuffer / Controller / Diviner and be very useful to the party even in combat, but I agree: I wouldn't call exactly a "pacifist" such a PC...

WorldWalker
2009-11-24, 04:43 PM
Saint Bertold
Whatever 3/Knight 4/Apostle of Peace 4/Full Caster Progression PrC X

Saint Bertold should only be played by a mature player, interested in a lot of roleplaying, with an all Good group interested in a challenge. Your Vows have all sorts of ridiculous pre-conditions, such as taking all helpless or incapacitated living enemies prisoner instead of killing them. So again, do not play this build unless everyone in your party is on board with it. That said, hereís how it works:

Whatever 3 can be anything with Concentration (prereq for Apostle of Peace) as a class Skill. A mix of Paladin, Binder, Incarnate, and/or any Skill Monkey class might be a good idea.

Knight gives you Test of Mettle.

Apostle of Peace (Book of Exalted Deeds) offers ridiculously fast casting, giving you 9th level spells at ECL 16, albeit from a somewhat limited list. It also gives you Turn Undead, a no Save Calm Emotions, and Censure Demons. Nothing but spells after 4 levels though, so head into any other PrC that offers full caster progression.

The catch is that you need to take Sacred Vow, Vow of Peace, Vow of Non-Violence, and Vow of Poverty.

Vow of Peace and Vow of Non-Violence boosts the Save DCs of all of your abilities and spells (including Test of Mettle), which makes weapons break against you, and gives you other abilities.

So your combos are rather strait forward. Use Test of Mettle, and enemies will hopelessly attack you, breaking their weapons against you. Your friends can incapacitate those who aren't effected, and then focus on the people who are one at a time. If an enemy isnít effected by Test of Mettle, you can use Calm Emotions, Skills, or the many spells at your disposal.

Love this, just so you know. Love it.

Zovc
2009-11-24, 04:53 PM
If they get past the diplomacy, use Intimidate to lock them in place.

You know all about that, don't you?

I thought it was funny.