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Sutrahariel
2009-11-23, 11:39 PM
I must say that I am at least mildly experianced with every character archetype known to me. But when a friend of mine showed me the alienist prc I felt dumb. I can see that its fluff is awesome, but how exactly can its abilities be useful in an actual party?

Can someone give me examples? Maybe a random build to show it off? I love far realm abominations just as much as the next girl, but this prc (the only one that fits that fun idea that I know of) seems really weak. Basically your insane, and can summon little patchy skinned, tentacle beasts? I don't get it >.<

root9125
2009-11-24, 12:02 AM
There's not much to get. You're insane, and can summon weird stuff instead of just KINDA weird stuff.

The reason it looks stupid: It's stupid.

Eldariel
2009-11-24, 12:07 AM
Uh, you just make a normal summoner. It's still a full casting PrC, so in that sense, it isn't horrible. The class features are pretty ****ty; pseudonaturals are frankly worse than celestials or fiendishes in every sense except the Spell Resistance (True Strike taking a turn from them makes it pretty darn useless while the Smite at least takes no action), and losing access to other summons just sucks.

Few bonus metamagic feats are nice, Pseudonatural Familiar isn't horrible, but losing Wisdom and taking -10 on all social skills is pretty annoying as far as "class features" go. As it requires Augment Summoning, it's quite the waste to enter as a non-summoner.


But yeah, just pretend you're making a Malconvoker; it's mostly the same. Just much worse. Though Imbued Summoning: Heroics (Power Attack) could go nicely with the inherent True Strike, I suppose.

Sutrahariel
2009-11-24, 12:07 AM
I see D: thats depressing. Has anyone found anything similar to this fluf wise? Homebrew maybe? I love lovecraftian based things inside rpgs so anything would help ^^

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 08:27 AM
Alienist is solid. It just gets a bad rap compared to Malconvoker because "true" outsiders are so much more useful to summon (Su's, SLAs and all that) than Pseudonatural creatures. Don't go thinking its bad just because you can't flood the battlefield with fiends/celestials.

You get two bonus metamagic feats, a boost to fort and reflex, bonus hitpoints, an extra spell slot that migrates up to 9th level (only for Summon Monster, but still useful), you stop aging, and you become an Outsider, which can be helpful for polymorph-type spells.

Pseudonaturals get SR, True Strike which lets them negate concealment 1/day, gain enough intelligence to understand commands, DR/magic and acid/electric resistance. Again, not overwhelming, but better than a normal animal or magical beast.

On top of all that, you don't lose caster levels. So, if you feel it fits your concept, stick with it. Loremaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm) fits with Alienist like a glove - Alienist helps you qualify for it with the bonus metamagic, you can RP a character that's obsessed with researching the Far Realm, and you lose no caster levels at all between the two PrCs. You might want to be a wizard rather than a sorcerer though.

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 08:35 AM
There's not much to get. You're insane, and can summon weird stuff instead of just KINDA weird stuff.

The reason it looks stupid: It's stupid.

Aha...I see. Stupid because...oh yeah! Stupid because it's not a mass-damage-dealing-nuke-'em-all-capable prestige class.

Optimystik has the right of it. It's a storyline PrC. Built for those who want to play a character instead of a damage dealing robot.

Sorry, I guess I got involved in the wrong game. I thought there was a story to go along with the dice-rolling.

FMArthur
2009-11-24, 08:41 AM
If the Pseudonatural template actually recalculated hit points, BAB and skill points, it would be a much better class. Maybe Alienist could be houseruled grant those things over the course of its progression. Outsider Hit Dice is serious business. I would force it to lose a caster level though.

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-24, 08:42 AM
i love the aging fluff, it reminds me of the futurama episode where the prof is taken to the old people's planet ^_^

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 08:44 AM
I'd say it's both - solid flavor and solid mechanics.

Flavor-wise, it rivals the Binder (or perhaps more accurately, the Anima Mage) in terms of creeping out the party and NPCs. It's also one of the few truly Chthulian classes out there. Feel free to hiss "r'lyeh fhtagn!" at NPCs who dare question you :smallbiggrin:

Mechanics-wise, it's a full caster with buffed summons. What you lose may not quite be worth what you gain, but its close enough that you can still feel good about the choice.

I definitely consider it one of the better PrCs in CA for both reasons. It certainly beats Argent Savant, Acolyte of the Skin and (shudder) Green Star Adept.


If the Pseudonatural template actually recalculated hit points, BAB and skill points, it would be a much better class. Maybe Alienist could be houseruled grant those things over the course of its progression. Outsider Hit Dice is serious business. I would force it to lose a caster level though.

I don't think it needs that disadvantage even with your improvement. They still lose the ability to summon ANY fiends or celestials; that's a big enough hit. When your buddy is summoning a Bebilith or Leonal, your Pseudonatural Monstrous Spider is going to look decidedly lacking.

I'd also do something about the Alternate Form; -1 morale penalty to attacks (effectively +1 AC) is nigh meaningless at higher levels.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-11-24, 08:47 AM
Aha...I see. Stupid because...oh yeah! Stupid because it's not a mass-damage-dealing-nuke-'em-all-capable prestige class.

Optimystik has the right of it. It's a storyline PrC. Built for those who want to play a character instead of a damage dealing robot.

Sorry, I guess I got involved in the wrong game. I thought there was a story to go along with the dice-rolling.

No, more like "because I summon pseudonatural creatures and take penalties on Cha skills for a Far Realms summoner isn't comparable to what an outsider summoner gets." You shouldn't have to sacrifice power to play the character you want to play. The Alienist does its concept fine in a vacuum, but (A) other generic summoner PrCs do summoning better and (B) the pseudonatural template doesn't really make summoned creatures imply "Far Realm" as much as the fiendish/celestial templates make creatures imply "Outer Planes."

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 09:05 AM
No, more like "because I summon pseudonatural creatures and take penalties on Cha skills for a Far Realms summoner isn't comparable to what an outsider summoner gets." You shouldn't have to sacrifice power to play the character you want to play. The Alienist does its concept fine in a vacuum, but (A) other generic summoner PrCs do summoning better and (B) the pseudonatural template doesn't really make summoned creatures imply "Far Realm" as much as the fiendish/celestial templates make creatures imply "Outer Planes."

Ok. I'm going to explain my opinion. Summoners summon what they summon because that's what they studied how to summon (read: are interested in).
Alienists summon pseudonatural creatures because that's what they're interested in. Not because the creatures themselves are mass damage dealing robots. It's perfectly acceptable to play a character who has a storyline that goes in that direction. If my storyline and character development take me that direction, that's where I'm going to go, whether people consider it to be "optimal" or not. I don't condsider having a backstory that says, "Cthulhu" and a PrC that says, "Dispater" or, "Orcus" to be consistent. If you're reading a book and, in the middle, the main character's backstory suddenly changes because it was "sub-optimal", would you see it as consistent?

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 09:05 AM
No, more like "because I summon pseudonatural creatures and take penalties on Cha skills for a Far Realms summoner isn't comparable to what an outsider summoner gets." You shouldn't have to sacrifice power to play the character you want to play. The Alienist does its concept fine in a vacuum, but (A) other generic summoner PrCs do summoning better and (B) the pseudonatural template doesn't really make summoned creatures imply "Far Realm" as much as the fiendish/celestial templates make creatures imply "Outer Planes."

Social skills don't really matter here; if you're going summoner/alienist, you're probably not the party face anyway. And if you have to talk to the palace guard or whatever, there's always Charm Person.

Keep in mind that the Alienist actually gets bonuses to communicating with pseudonaturals - if your DM includes one (especially a BIG one) in your campaign, you might be glad you kept the crazy guy/chick around. And he can still hold his own in a fight in the meantime. The class also advances your familiar, who gets fairly sturdy with the DR, SR and resistance.

What the template "implies" is really up to the roleplayer. It certainly does a better job of implying Far Realm than any other PrC out there.

Riffington
2009-11-24, 09:21 AM
Alienist is exactly what a PrC should be. Full of flavor. Super interesting. You give up just about exactly as much as you get (vs going straight wizard). This is a good and well-balanced class. If you and your buddies decided "well-balanced classes are too weak for us", then you should walk away from this one.

Animefunkmaster
2009-11-24, 09:23 AM
While it does have the bonuses for crazy, I am not a big fan of the penalties as class features.

In other news, the all powerful planer shepherd who focuses on Xoriat, can summon pseudonatural creatures.

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-24, 09:27 AM
I just wish chicken was on the summon monster list. That would be epic.

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 09:31 AM
You could always "customize" your summoning list. But I think chicken would be a summon nature's ally instead of a summon monster.

A pseudonatural chicken, on the other hand....

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-24, 09:36 AM
Aha...I see. Stupid because...oh yeah!
No, stupid because some people don't like the Far Realm. :P


It's perfectly acceptable to play a character who has a storyline that goes in that direction.
I suppose it's acceptable. But here's the thing - if I want to play a Cthulu cultist, I want the cultist to have power. If my character is a simpering incompetent, it doesn't at all feel like a servant of the Almighty Old Gods. This is an important point, elaborated on below.


I don't condsider having a backstory that says, "Cthulhu" and a PrC that says, "Dispater" or, "Orcus" to be consistent.
That's where we diverge. Why should I be shackled to what WotC sees as what their prestige class means in-universe? My gaming group, our interpretation. I can convince my DM to homebrew a prestige class Disciple of Cthulu with the same class features. And unless the class features are directly linked to Dispater (in which case I would avoid the class), there wouldn't be any problem. I get to play a Cthulu cultist and not be incompetent.


It's a storyline PrC. Built for those who want to play a character instead of a damage dealing robot.
Fauly comparison. The Alienist is still flawed. If you want to play a demon summoner, you can play a Malconvoker - you get to summon all the demons you want, work in some moral conflict, get involved with Celestial conspiracies, and have power befitting one that commands the forces of evil.
If you want to play a Cthulu devotee, you could conceivably play an Alienist. You get to summon unnatural creatures, and... that's it. You're inferior to the Malconvoker - which means that if you ever face one, fiends will triumph over the forces of the Old Ones. You get to be Far Realms freaky, which is good, but you don't get the power of the Far Realms, which is bad.
So if you choose to play a different storyline and a different character, you can be flavorful and live up to your fearsome reputation. But if you choose this particular storyline and character, you have to sacrifice power. And if all your claims about the power of Cthulu turn out to be bluster, because you can't support them due to lack of power, you sacrifice flavor too.

Honestly, I don't see what's so flavorful about the Alienist. You get to summon freaky creatures and be socially incompetent. Whoop-de-doo, I could have spent a feat to get that. And it's not balanced either, because it's still a full caster.

jiriku
2009-11-24, 09:42 AM
I don't see why people knock it. What do you get from wizard 6-15? Let's see, full casting, two bonus feats, and familiar progression. Now, what do you get from alienist 1-10? Hmm, full casting, two bonus feats, familiar progression, improved hit points and saves, a bonus spell slot, and the ability to summon a different menu of creatures than is normally available to the wizard. The sacrifices you make are perfectly consistent with going slowly insane from exposure to secrets mankind was not meant to know, and the penalties fall into areas that you can easily dump and leave to the party face.

So, basically, it's strictly better than wizard unless you're socially oriented, which the typical wizard is usually not focused on anyhow. Is it incantatrix or malconvoker? No. Is it a definite improvement on wizard 20 for a character who wants to delve into the secrets of the far realm and summon its denizens? Heck yeah!

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-24, 09:49 AM
Bok Bok Bok Bok BLARRRARAGH! sez monster chicken (http://media.photobucket.com/image/chicken%20monster/Fooksie/Monster-05.jpg)

Don't the pseudonatural's get an good grapple bonus? I could have sworn they did?

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 09:49 AM
No, stupid because some people don't like the Far Realm.

Fixed.
Some people not liking something is not enough to justify eliminating something from everyone's game. I don't like the swordsage or the crusader or the beguiler, etc... It doesn't mean I have the right to tell everyone not to play one because some people don't think it works.

@^: LOVE IT!!!!!

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 09:52 AM
I just wish chicken was on the summon monster list. That would be epic.

Celestial chicken could be, which would then become pseudonatural to the Alienist.



So, basically, it's strictly better than wizard unless you're socially oriented, which the typical wizard is usually not focused on anyhow.

Not quite. A non-alienist Wizard can still summon non-pseudonatural creatures - that can make a huge difference. For example, an Alienist can never summon a Leonal with SM9. Leonals get a Holy Word roar as a supernatural ability 3/day - that's likely to be far more powerful than any number of pseudonatural rocs and dire sharks.

That loss of versatility means they are not strictly better.

@Foryn - you're being contradictory. First you say the Alienist is weak ("simpering incompetent") then you say its unbalanced due to being a full caster. Which is it?

And saying "I can get my DM to homebrew me a Far Realm cultist of my own" is meaningless. Bully for you, but many other DMs like to have a class in a sourcebook so they can vet it, not spin ideas out of whole cloth or deal with the ones their players have spun. Which is easier to check up on? "Hey guys, is Alienist overpowered?" or "Hey guys, this is a PrC my player came up with abilities X, Y, and Z, access to the following spell list, and hit die d4..." One is a lot easier to get replies to. If your DM allows you to just make up PrCs, why bother with sourcebooks at all?

EDIT:


Bok Bok Bok Bok BLARRRARAGH! sez monster chicken (http://media.photobucket.com/image/chicken%20monster/Fooksie/Monster-05.jpg)

Don't the pseudonatural's get an good grapple bonus? I could have sworn they did?

No, the tentacles aren't long enough for that (even in Alternate Form.) They just unnerve attackers with all their sensuous writhing. ;_;

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 09:57 AM
Bok Bok Bok Bok BLARRRARAGH! sez monster chicken (http://media.photobucket.com/image/chicken%20monster/Fooksie/Monster-05.jpg)

Man...I can't...stop...laughing....:smalleek:...this may...inhibit...my...work day!

Riffington
2009-11-24, 09:58 AM
In other news, the all powerful planer shepherd who focuses on Xoriat, can summon pseudonatural creatures.

Well, I think this pretty much sums up the question of whether Alienist is a good PrC. Is Planar Shepherd a better class, or a more broken class.

Btw I am baffled by the notion that Malconvokers are somehow more powerful than Alienists. Malconvokers sacrifice a caster level. They are straight-up weaker til 10th level when they get their capstone. And long before then, the evil creatures they are "totally in control of" likely succeed in turning them evil...

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-24, 09:59 AM
Mmmm. Writhing. :smallsigh:

I'd fail my grapple check Imeanwhat!?! o.O


Speaking of the wonderful Far Realms, what other options exist for those willing to accept madness for power?

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 10:06 AM
There was an article in Dragon Magazine...(forgot the number...it was yellow with a mind flayer on the cover...anyways)...lots of far realms stuff in there, including a bunch of feats, spells, and magic items.

EDIT:...and creatures...can't forget writhing-tentacled creatures...:smallwink:

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 10:09 AM
Btw I am baffled by the notion that Malconvokers are somehow more powerful than Alienists. Malconvokers sacrifice a caster level. They are straight-up weaker til 10th level when they get their capstone. And long before then, the evil creatures they are "totally in control of" likely succeed in turning them evil...

Not at all. Their best ability is Fiendish Legion, which is 5th level, not the capstone. (The capstone is Safe Summoning - allows them to dismiss their summons as an immediate action - and is not 10th level, as Malconvoker is a 9-level PrC.)

Malconvoker is strong because it effectively applies Twin Spell and Extend Spell to your fiendish summons for free; in addition, various sourcebooks keep adding summonable fiends with highly useful abilities (plus you can just stick "fiendish" onto a nice animal like a croc or spider or something to get the benefits also.) Free metamagic is worth losing a caster level for, especially when its metamagic that makes up for the effects of the lost caster level (more and longer summons, pretty much just what the caster level would have given you.) In contrast, Alienist has much less love in sourcebooks.

In addition, Malconvoker grants the planar ally line for free, meaning arcane malconvokers get easy access to the thematically and mechanically appropriate Thaumaturgist. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm)

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-24, 10:10 AM
Yes, The Cerebrosis. Two Know: Arcana checks (25 and 28), 1400 gp, -1 Con and a week to drive oneself slightly mad gets you a feat that grants 11 cool spells. either in 330 or 333. I'm planning on it, I just need to get the downtime.

(Also gonna be warshipping an Elder Evil ^_^)

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 10:18 AM
Yes, The Cerebrosis. Two Know: Arcana checks (25 and 28), 1400 gp, -1 Con and a week to drive oneself slightly mad gets you a feat that grants 11 cool spells. either in 330 or 333. I'm planning on it, I just need to get the downtime.

(Also gonna be warshipping an Elder Evil ^_^)

Yes. That's the one I was talking about. Imagine combining that with the Alienist...soooo many writhing tentacles...sooo little time.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-24, 10:25 AM
Btw I am baffled by the notion that Malconvokers are somehow more powerful than Alienists. Malconvokers sacrifice a caster level. They are straight-up weaker til 10th level when they get their capstone. And long before then, the evil creatures they are "totally in control of" likely succeed in turning them evil...
Do you mean ECL 10th, i.e. Malconvoker 5th, when they get Infernal Legion? Or do you mean Malconvoker 10th (heh, ninja'd - make that 9th), when they get... I don't even know, I stopped worrying about whether Malconvoker was worthwhile once I read about Infernal Legion? Malconvokers get a free Extend and a free Twin on all Summon Monster spells used to summon fiends (read: damn near every spell he's going to cast). That's five levels of free metamagic. In this case, damn good metamagic, too.

Malconvokers are one of those beautiful classes that are worth their lost spellcaster level. If nothing else, it gets major points for that alone - not many classes are. I mean, seriously, what is there? Sandshaper, for spontaneous casters. Recaster, for Changelings. War Weaver, maybe, if you're really going for the party-buffing routine. I'm gonna toss in Archmage as an honorable mention for doing an awesome job of losing something in exchange for its features that's less debilitating than a spellcaster level.

Don't get me wrong, the Alienist is pretty cool. But in terms of power? Once a Malconvoker gets Infernal Legion, there's no competition.


But I'm also going to say... even straight Conjurer is probably better than Conjurer/Alienist at some point, mechanically. I mean, if you compare Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally, SNA is going to win unless you consider SM's potential SLAs from summoning particular celestials/fiends; the celestial/fiendish templated critters just don't stack up against the untemplated creatures you get a level earlier with SNA. With Alienist, you only have the templated critters, now with a different, arguably inferior template. So no SLAs. You're therefore worse than a Druid summoner. But a Wizard, or especially a Malconvoker, can give the Druid a run for his money at high levels because of the SLAs. But an Alienist can't do that.

I think if I were to attempt to fix the Alienist, I'd add replacement creatures for the specific (non-templated) celestials/fiends that they lose. That seems far more reasonable than most anything else. More work, but it's addressing what I think is likely the biggest weakness there.

Riffington
2009-11-24, 10:37 AM
Not at all. Their best ability is Fiendish Legion, which is 5th level, not the capstone. (The capstone is Safe Summoning - allows them to dismiss their summons as an immediate action - and is not 10th level, as Malconvoker is a 9-level PrC.)

Sorry I meant 10th level character (5th malconvoker). And maybe I was confused about what the word capstone means. Is that the highest-level power or best power?

But until you get to 10th level as a character, you are not getting anything close to worth a lost caster level. Afterwards, you might (you might not - both you and alienist suffer greatly from the fact that you're spending feats and/or a caster level on the ability to summon, which is dangerous for a squishy character). And at some point, the malconvoker will lose his non-evil status and all powers. At that point, the DM should be nice enough to let him retrain to wizard (and/or make him an NPC).

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 10:51 AM
Sorry I meant 10th level character (5th malconvoker). And maybe I was confused about what the word capstone means. Is that the highest-level power or best power?

Capstone means the last ability a class gets. As you've seen, it's not always the best ability.


But until you get to 10th level as a character, you are not getting anything close to worth a lost caster level. Afterwards, you might (you might not - both you and alienist suffer greatly from the fact that you're spending feats and/or a caster level on the ability to summon, which is dangerous for a squishy character). And at some point, the malconvoker will lose his non-evil status and all powers. At that point, the DM should be nice enough to let him retrain to wizard (and/or make him an NPC).

You're still very mistaken:

1) Malconvoker is specifically exempt from turning evil due to repeatedly summoning Evil creatures thanks to their first-level Unrestricted Conjuration ability. Your DM can ignore that, but he's ignoring both RAW and RAI if he does.

2) Ability to summon is not dangerous for a squishy character - quite the opposite. The more meat you can throw up in between you and your enemies, the less your squishiness matters. And since their summons typically have SLAs and supernatural abilities of their own (including, in some cases, the ability to summon more!) you are essentially doubling, trebling etc. your actions in combat.

3) Nothing in the Malconvoker description says they lose their powers by turning Evil. Being non-Evil is only a requirement to join; their powers are not tied to their alignment in any way at all.

4) The lost caster level isn't even a big drawback before Fiendish Legion. Malconvokers get Extend Spell for free upon joining the class (as long as they win the minigame.) Thus, even with the lost caster level, their demonic summons will last much longer than a full summoner at the same level.

See Mastering the Malconvoker (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872758/Mastering_the_Malconvoker) to truly appreciate the potential of this class. It blows Alienist out of the water, utterly and completely.

Riffington
2009-11-24, 11:14 AM
Capstone means the last ability a class gets. As you've seen, it's not always the best ability.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.


1) Malconvoker is specifically exempt from turning evil due to repeatedly summoning Evil creatures thanks to their first-level Unrestricted Conjuration ability.
Yes, absolutely. The act of casting the spell doesn't make him more evil. This minor power makes him overconfident. Overconfident enough to deal with evil creatures who have had millenia of experience in corruption and think that he will keep his soul intact. Faust is sort of a best-case scenario here.



2) Ability to summon is not dangerous for a squishy character - quite the opposite. The more meat you can throw up in between you and your enemies, the less your squishiness matters. And since their summons typically have SLAs and supernatural abilities of their own (including, in some cases, the ability to summon more!) you are essentially doubling, trebling etc. your actions in combat.
But the full-round casting does tend to draw fire.



3) Nothing in the Malconvoker description says they lose their powers by turning Evil. Being non-Evil is only a requirement to join; their powers are not tied to their alignment in any way at all.

Oh ok, I misunderstood. Cool.



4) The lost caster level isn't even a big drawback before Fiendish Legion. Malconvokers get Extend Spell for free upon joining the class (as long as they win the minigame.) Thus, even with the lost caster level, their demonic summons will last much longer than a full summoner at the same level.

Are you really saying free extend spell is worth a caster level?

DragoonWraith
2009-11-24, 11:37 AM
(including, in some cases, the ability to summon more!) you are essentially doubling, trebling etc. your actions in combat.
Summoned creatures are expressly forbidden from using any of their own summoning abilities.

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 11:43 AM
Yes, absolutely. The act of casting the spell doesn't make him more evil. This minor power makes him overconfident. Overconfident enough to deal with evil creatures who have had millenia of experience in corruption and think that he will keep his soul intact. Faust is sort of a best-case scenario here.

Confidence - even over-confidence - is not Evil. A Malconvoker walks a narrow line, but still one he is capable of walking.

And even if he ends up damning himself after death, that will do nothing to affect his effectiveness while alive.

Interstingly enough, your example - a demon who has been alive for milennia, refusing to believe some piddly mortal conjurer could fool him - is listed right in the Malconvoker's entry. He is called "Cvol Visok, nalfeshnee dupe."


But the full-round casting does tend to draw fire.

Ah, but this is another area where the Malconvoker excels and the Alienist does not. A Malconvoker is more likely to give up his familiar for the Rapid Summoning variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistwizardvariants.htm) than an Alienist - an Alienist's pseudonatural familiar is a much harder trade than a Malconvoker, who will be unlikely to even use his.

Even if the variant is unavailable, There is still the Rapid Spell feat (CD). DMs who allow one Complete usually allow them all. And even without that, A conjurer has a number of ways to summon with impunity. Summoning is not an attack, and so does not break invisibility. They can throw up a solid fog first, or dimension door away from the enemy, or drop a Grease/Tentacles, or...


Are you really saying free extend spell is worth a caster level?

When summoning, yes. Another wizard level at level 6 gets your summon an additional round, for a total of 6. Free extend at the same level (Wiz 5/MC 1) gets your summon an additional FIVE rounds instead, for a total of 10.


Summoned creatures are expressly forbidden from using any of their own summoning abilities.

My mistake, I was thinking of called creatures. (The Malconvoker gets the Planar Ally line added to their spell list for free.)

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-24, 11:45 AM
Interstingly enough, your example - a demon who has been alive for milennia, refusing to believe some piddly mortal conjurer could fool him - is listed right in the Malconvoker's entry. He is called "Cvol Visok, nalfeshnee dupe."
That would make me even more inclined to think ancient demons can't be fooled. The Malconvoker entry is notoriously poor when it comes to examples - see the sadistic cleric of Pelor who doesn't have enough Wisdom to cast his spells.

root9125
2009-11-24, 11:49 AM
Aha...I see. Stupid because...oh yeah! Stupid because it's not a mass-damage-dealing-nuke-'em-all-capable prestige class.

Optimystik has the right of it. It's a storyline PrC. Built for those who want to play a character instead of a damage dealing robot.

Sorry, I guess I got involved in the wrong game. I thought there was a story to go along with the dice-rolling.

Hey, now, you're talking to the guy who plays a warmage / argent savant. Don't assume I'm a munchkin just because I'm hating on a class that isn't optimized. Heck, I didn't even say anything that would lead you to believe that my reason for hating was for underoptimization.

I just hate things that break my particular fantasy universe. Aliens and freaky maniacs who summon tentacle-monsters are that.

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 11:51 AM
That would make me even more inclined to think ancient demons can't be fooled. The Malconvoker entry is notoriously poor when it comes to examples - see the sadistic cleric of Pelor who doesn't have enough Wisdom to cast his spells.

That's a common fallacy when reading sourcebooks - "there's an error on page X, therefore this entry on page Y can't be valid."

The book indicates that demon lifespan is irrelevant in determining their ability to be fooled - only their Sense Motive result matters. As the DM, if you auto-fail the check, you are houseruling.

A Malconvoker may attract some unwelcome attention - demons do have a long time to notice one, after all - but that doesn't translate automatically to "becomes Evil" either.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-24, 11:58 AM
That's a common fallacy when reading sourcebooks - "there's an error on page X, therefore this entry on page Y can't be valid."

There is no guarantee that the same people were working on any two given parts of a sourcebook, yes. However, both Cvol Visok and Pelorite Elf are in the same class description, and they are both part of the "cool" fluff. I presume from this that they were both spawned from the same ill-conceived "kewl" idea.

The issue at hand is not that the fiend will not be tricked - as you said, that's a function of their Sense Motive. The issue is that the fiend will try a counter-con, which it will have skill in due to life experience, and the Malconvoker is liable to succumb. It's no certainty, but there's certainly a significant chance.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-24, 12:39 PM
Hey, now, you're talking to the guy who plays a warmage / argent savant. Don't assume I'm a munchkin just because I'm hating on a class that isn't optimized. Heck, I didn't even say anything that would lead you to believe that my reason for hating was for underoptimization.

I just hate things that break my particular fantasy universe. Aliens and freaky maniacs who summon tentacle-monsters are that.

I have no problem with cthuluesque monsters and the far realms. However, I have little desire to turn my character into such a monstrosity. I would have been much more interested in a character that explores the far realms in a different way.

They do make great NPCs, though.

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 02:13 PM
There is no guarantee that the same people were working on any two given parts of a sourcebook, yes. However, both Cvol Visok and Pelorite Elf are in the same class description, and they are both part of the "cool" fluff. I presume from this that they were both spawned from the same ill-conceived "kewl" idea.

But even if it is the exact same author who wrote both portions, that's still fallacious. Just because I make an error in one part of my written work, does not mean that everything else I write is invalid; particularly when the error (poorly written character sheet) has little to do with the fluff.


The issue at hand is not that the fiend will not be tricked - as you said, that's a function of their Sense Motive. The issue is that the fiend will try a counter-con, which it will have skill in due to life experience, and the Malconvoker is liable to succumb. It's no certainty, but there's certainly a significant chance.

If that fiend doesn't know that it's been tricked - or worse, that it refuses to believe it - any "counter-cons" are metagaming by the DM, pure and simple. Failing a Sense Motive means it has no reason to think the Malconvoker is playing it like a harp. If your table tolerates that kind of metagaming, then you might as well ban Malconvoker entirely.


I have no problem with cthuluesque monsters and the far realms. However, I have little desire to turn my character into such a monstrosity. I would have been much more interested in a character that explores the far realms in a different way.

There are many other ways. Make a Loremaster that studies the far realms, for instance, giving him lots of Knowledge (The Planes)-related abilities. Make a Psionic character; many psionic aberrations, like Aboleths and Illithid originate from the FR, so any connection you give your psionicist to those creatures (an Illithid bloodline, for instance) will strengthen that flavor. Make a Binder - many Vestiges inhabit the Far Realms. Make an Ur-Priest - his belief in the superiority of the Far Realms causes him to regard other deities as little more than fodder. Flavor is up to your own imagination, the sourcebooks are merely tools in that regard.

Aldizog
2009-11-24, 02:34 PM
(True Strike taking a turn from them makes it pretty darn useless while the Smite at least takes no action),
I believe the True Strike (Su) ability does work like Smite, and not like the spell. That seems to be the implication of the text in various places in Complete Arcane. It's most clear in the example of the toad familiar.

So that can be a really nice ability, especially with summons that have a single powerful attack (like dire wolves or rhinos) or when you have a multitude of weaker summons that you are using mostly for battlefield control and damage soak, when they wouldn't normally be able to hit the target.

The addition of some other Far Realm creatures to be summoned would improve the class. But it's not like a wizard going into this PrC is going to be underpowered in most parties... they'll still be a full-casting wizard.

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 02:37 PM
I have no problem with cthuluesque monsters and the far realms. However, I have little desire to turn my character into such a monstrosity. I would have been much more interested in a character that explores the far realms in a different way.

They do make great NPCs, though.

We were discussing Dragon Mag #330 (or #333, we can't remember which). Cerebrosis is a good option for the straight-class arcane caster to explore the far realm.

Also @Optimystik: Illithids, according to LoM originate in the far future, but cthulhu-esque is still a good word for them...:smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 03:06 PM
So that can be a really nice ability, especially with summons that have a single powerful attack (like dire wolves or rhinos) or when you have a multitude of weaker summons that you are using mostly for battlefield control and damage soak, when they wouldn't normally be able to hit the target.

In addition, it applies to the touch attack to initiate a grapple. So an Alienist uses its bonus SM9 slot to summon up 3 Colossal Pseudonatural Monstrous Centipedes - each one uses True Strike, each thus gets a grapple check at +62 that ignores all concealment.

Nothing compared to what a Malconvoker can do, but not to be taken lightly either.


Also @Optimystik: Illithids, according to LoM originate in the far future, but cthulhu-esque is still a good word for them...:smallbiggrin:

While that is true, keep in mind that time is distorted in the Far Realm also. It is quite possible for us both to be right.

"Aberrations are spawned in its infinite madness, and some of these find their way - through space, through time, through planar travel - to the mundane realms of humanoids."

Sliver
2009-11-24, 03:29 PM
And saying "I can get my DM to homebrew me a Far Realm cultist of my own" is meaningless. Bully for you, but many other DMs like to have a class in a sourcebook so they can vet it, not spin ideas out of whole cloth or deal with the ones their players have spun. Which is easier to check up on? "Hey guys, is Alienist overpowered?" or "Hey guys, this is a PrC my player came up with abilities X, Y, and Z, access to the following spell list, and hit die d4..." One is a lot easier to get replies to. If your DM allows you to just make up PrCs, why bother with sourcebooks at all?

There is a great difference between refluffing a good class with your DM to better suit your character concept, making a new PrC that is a mix of stuff you like and relates to your concept and taking a weaker PrC just because its fluff is already the one you find fitting to your character. One is a solid choice that is likely to be approved by many DMs, the other is really random and has nothing to do with anything, and the third is your issue. Claiming a class is good or a solid choice because of fluff reasons, doesn't mean that the class is good. Refluffing isn't hard and you can play what you want without forcing you to be weaker, and optimizing doesn't force you to roleplay badly.

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 03:39 PM
Refluffing isn't hard and you can play what you want without forcing you to be weaker, and optimizing doesn't force you to roleplay badly.

You're preaching to the choir, Sliver. I'm well aware of and strive to avoid invoking Stormwind. My point was that Alienist is not weak. Any PrC with full casting progression is at least playable.

Milskidasith
2009-11-24, 03:44 PM
You're preaching to the choir, Sliver. I'm well aware of and strive to avoid invoking Stormwind. My point was that Alienist is not weak. Any PrC with full casting progression is at least playable.

It's weaker than going with a straight conjurer, though, which is a problem. It's playable, sure, but I'd rather not play it when it means weakening myself (just from the lack of monsters to summon; the other penalties are more minor).

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 04:05 PM
It's weaker than going with a straight conjurer, though, which is a problem. It's playable, sure, but I'd rather not play it when it means weakening myself (just from the lack of monsters to summon; the other penalties are more minor).

If you'd rather not play it, don't. I really don't see the problem. :smallsmile:

You're not drawing the crucial distinction between "weaker" and "weak." Yes an Alienist is weaker than a pure conjurer... but that goes for a metric ton of classes and prestige classes. That doesn't make choosing those classes a problem. Picking anything but a Tier 1 class could be seen as "weakening yourself" - the question is, can the Alienist player still do his job?

The difference between an Alienist and a truly weak class: an Alienist CAN still do her job. Pseudonatural summons are worse than fiends and celestials, but better than magical beasts and animals. Alienists can still Polymorph, Glitterdust, Grease, Enervation, Gate, Wish, Shapechange, Time Stop... all the wonderful spells that make Wizards Tier 1 in the first place. And a Wizard 10/Alienist 10 gets those spells at the exact same time as the Wizard 20. So there is no problem.

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 04:12 PM
If you'd rather not play it, don't. I really don't see the problem. :smallsmile:

You're not drawing the crucial distinction between "weaker" and "weak." Yes an Alienist is weaker than a pure conjurer... but that goes for a metric ton of classes and prestige classes. That doesn't make choosing those classes a problem. Picking anything but a Tier 1 class could be seen as "weakening yourself" - the question is, can the Alienist player still do his job?

The difference between an Alienist and a truly weak class: an Alienist CAN still do her job. Pseudonatural summons are worse than fiends and celestials, but better than magical beasts and animals. Alienists can still Polymorph, Glitterdust, Grease, Enervation, Gate, Wish, Shapechange, Time Stop... all the wonderful spells that make Wizards Tier 1 in the first place. And a Wizard 10/Alienist 10 gets those spells at the exact same time as the Wizard 20. So there is no problem.

Hooray for logic! Taking a "hit" in the name my story, IMO, is not a "hit" at all.
Being new-ish to DnD forums, can somebody explain this tier system? I'm not familiar with it.

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 04:22 PM
In my characters, I try to find the "Golden Mean" between flavor and crunch; a build that can be jam-packed with story, yet still effective in a team and able to pull his weight.

Alienist accomplishes this beautifully. The fact that it is weaker than a conjurer doesn't matter to me as long as it can successfully fill the role of party summoner. It can. Losing no caster levels is automatic win. Advancing and toughening the familiar, becoming ageless, bonus spell slot and bonuses to saves are all icing on the cake.


Being new-ish to DnD forums, can somebody explain this tier system? I'm not familiar with it.

Tier system for classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)

It's a rough way of relatively measuring class power level.

Riffington
2009-11-24, 06:49 PM
Confidence - even over-confidence - is not Evil. A Malconvoker walks a narrow line, but still one he is capable of walking.

It's not evil, but it is stupid. A malconvoker walks a narrow tightrope that is being held up on each end by an imp.


And even if he ends up damning himself after death, that will do nothing to affect his effectiveness while alive.
I was under the impression that if you ceased to meet requirements for a PrC you lost its powers. If that's false then his near-inevitable damnation does not affect his power level.



Interstingly enough, your example - a demon who has been alive for milennia, refusing to believe some piddly mortal conjurer could fool him - is listed right in the Malconvoker's entry. He is called "Cvol Visok, nalfeshnee dupe."

Absolutely that should go in the listing. If you're going to be a malconvoker you must believe it's possible that you are the one doing the duping. This is foolhardy in the extreme, of course.



Ah, but this is another area where the Malconvoker excels and the Alienist does not. A Malconvoker is more likely to give up his familiar for the Rapid Summoning variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistwizardvariants.htm) than an Alienist - an Alienist's pseudonatural familiar is a much harder trade than a Malconvoker, who will be unlikely to even use his.

Never seen that variant, but it looks extremely strong.


When summoning, yes. Another wizard level at level 6 gets your summon an additional round, for a total of 6. Free extend at the same level (Wiz 5/MC 1) gets your summon an additional FIVE rounds instead, for a total of 10.
So you'd rather a 12 round Summon 3 than a 7 round Summon 4?


There are certain tropes in the world that can't help but make it into the D&D table. One is that if you go around trying to kill lots of kids because you heard a prophecy that one will kill you, one will grow up into an adult who will kill you. Another is that if you find a way to do good by tricking demons, you are actually the one being tricked.

jeek
2009-11-24, 08:16 PM
I see D: thats depressing. Has anyone found anything similar to this fluf wise? Homebrew maybe? I love lovecraftian based things inside rpgs so anything would help ^^

Level 10 (with Improved Binding) Binder with the Zceryll vestige ( http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718 )

and if you somehow get to level 27, bind Tkhaluuljin a.k.a. "the Cephalopocalypse" ( http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080407a )

Milskidasith
2009-11-24, 09:27 PM
Absolutely that should go in the listing. If you're going to be a malconvoker you must believe it's possible that you are the one doing the duping. This is foolhardy in the extreme, of course.

Not really; your bluff check beats demons sense motive easily. They have no reason to believe your summoning spell isn't having them fight the forces of good.



There are certain tropes in the world that can't help but make it into the D&D table. One is that if you go around trying to kill lots of kids because you heard a prophecy that one will kill you, one will grow up into an adult who will kill you. Another is that if you find a way to do good by tricking demons, you are actually the one being tricked.

If you have to Rule 0 out the fact Malconvoker will literally never fail a bluff check on summoned demons (and, if he maxes it, a sense motive, either), then you don't have a leg to stand on.

If an alienist actually gave you unique far realms monsters, it would fit the fluff. As is, you're just a crazy guy adding tentacles to otherwise normal monsters.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-24, 09:33 PM
Malconvoker will literally never fail...if he maxes it, a sense motive

If you're never failing a Sense Motive check against demons, you have a +40 or so modifier; and when you're packing that sort of power it's the GM's job to compensate, because the game was not balanced with that in mind. An easy way the GM can compensate is by giving the demons magic items. This doesn't work so well with demons' sense motive, because of a lack of IC justification, so the Malconvoker can do the swindle easy. But demons do have a reason to buff Bluff, and the Malconvoker might not be able to put quite as much resources into Sense Motive as time goes on.

Milskidasith
2009-11-24, 09:39 PM
If you're never failing a Sense Motive check against demons, you have a +40 or so modifier; and when you're packing that sort of power it's the GM's job to compensate, because the game was not balanced with that in mind. An easy way the GM can compensate is by giving the demons magic items. This doesn't work so well with demons' sense motive, because of a lack of IC justification, so the Malconvoker can do the swindle easy. But demons do have a reason to buff Bluff, and the Malconvoker might not be able to put quite as much resources into Sense Motive as time goes on.

Again, if you are doing all this just to justify a character falling for taking a prestige class, you are Rule 0ing the malconvokers power way too much... why the hell would a fiendish centipede, a nearly unintelligent creature, ever have a magic item of +bluff? Even the demons are low enough CR there is no way they could have a big enough item of +bluff.

If you really want the malconvoker to fall for his decision that much, then tell him up front instead of loading on magic items on summoned fiendish animals.

EDIT: Also, just looking at Summon Monster IX, none of the demons have any ranks in bluff.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-24, 09:44 PM
why the hell would a fiendish centipede, a nearly unintelligent creature, ever have a magic item of +bluff?
Why are you using Planar Binding to summon a centipide?

I assumed as a premise that we were talking about Planar Binding, and demons that had a reasonable chance of counter-bluffing the Malconvoker. If we're just talking summoning, than yeah, the malconvoker gets off scot-free, because unless the malconvoker fails the simple Bluff check he has total control. The only potential for a counter-con by the demon is during a Planar Binding spell. I didn't consider mere summons in the argument. I ought to have been much more clear about that. >_<

Milskidasith
2009-11-24, 09:46 PM
Why are you using Planar Binding to summon a centipide?

I assumed as a premise that we were talking about Planar Binding, and demons that had a reasonable chance of counter-bluffing the Malconvoker. If we're just talking summoning, than yeah, the malconvoker gets off scot-free, because unless the malconvoker fails the simple Bluff check he has total control. The only potential for a counter-con by the demon is during a Planar Binding spell. I didn't consider mere summons in the argument. I ought to have been much more clear about that. >_<

Malconvoker's best ability is level 5 and it's a summoner class; the planar binding benefit is useful, but not especially so compared to, you know, +5 levels of metamagic for free on summoning. Besides, the +2 to Planar Binding applies to everything; I'd bind solars before anything else.

Seriously, why would a malconvoker rely on planar binding when his abilities are all about summoning things better?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-24, 09:52 PM
Seriously, why would a malconvoker rely on planar binding when his abilities are all about summoning things better?

Because planar binding is a nice spell overall. And this whole debate started when somebody mentioned having difficulty controlling fiends that were aeons old. You don't tend to get those sorts of fiends with a summon spell.

It's a corner case, ya, but it occurs often enough.

Milskidasith
2009-11-24, 09:55 PM
Because planar binding is a nice spell overall. And this whole debate started when somebody mentioned having difficulty controlling fiends that were aeons old. You don't tend to get those sorts of fiends with a summon spell.

It's a corner case, ya, but it occurs often enough.

Except, you know, Solars. You'll be binding far more of them than you will anything else.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-24, 09:59 PM
The act of casting the spell doesn't make him more evil. This minor power makes him overconfident. Overconfident enough to deal with evil creatures who have had millenia of experience in corruption and think that he will keep his soul intact.

This was the initial prompt, and I was responding to the initial prompt with a suggestion on how to make the prompt more viable without DM fiat. The initial prompt is reliant on Planar Binding rather than Summon Monster. As you mentioned, this means that the prompt will come up relatively infrequently, as solars are being bound more often than other creatures. But if the Malconvoker decides to bind ancient, corrupting fiends; it might be a good idea to give the fiends magic items that they, in their role as corrupter, might reasonably have.

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 10:20 PM
It's not evil, but it is stupid. A malconvoker walks a narrow tightrope that is being held up on each end by an imp.

The only "stupid" Malconvoker is the one that gets found out. As long as one hasn't been, he isn't stupid.

Also, nothing is stopping your Malconvoker from summoning goody-goody celestial creatures all day long either. They won't get the class bonuses, but one presumes you're still a dedicated summoner with the kinds of feats and bonuses that buff summoned critters, like Augment Summoning. The fiends are your big guns, not your only guns.


I was under the impression that if you ceased to meet requirements for a PrC you lost its powers. If that's false then his near-inevitable damnation does not affect his power level.

A class can only lose powers if some part of its entry explicitly says so, like the Paladin base class or the Grey Guard prestige class. Players are free to change alignment during a game without repercussions unless otherwise stated.

The most you could say is that falling to Evil might prevent him from leveling further in the PrC, but that isn't actually stated anywhere either.


Absolutely that should go in the listing. If you're going to be a malconvoker you must believe it's possible that you are the one doing the duping. This is foolhardy in the extreme, of course.

I see it differently from you - it is the fiends that are the overconfident partners of the pairing. I see this as a delightful subversion, using their own tactics against them. Just the kind of con a Complete Scoundrel would go for.


So you'd rather a 12 round Summon 3 than a 7 round Summon 4?

A Wizard 6 and a Wizard 5/Mal 1 both top out at Summon 3.

That's a silly argument anyway; you might as well say "all PrCs with a dead level are useless." Such a statement proves nothing more than that you don't understand what the class is capable of.


There are certain tropes in the world that can't help but make it into the D&D table. One is that if you go around trying to kill lots of kids because you heard a prophecy that one will kill you, one will grow up into an adult who will kill you. Another is that if you find a way to do good by tricking demons, you are actually the one being tricked.

I don't know about your table, but the only things that make it to mine are what I want to go there. :smallconfused:

The rules say "this class can trick demons." Deny that if you want, but again you're houseruling, and may as well just ban it to begin with.


I assumed as a premise that we were talking about Planar Binding, and demons that had a reasonable chance of counter-bluffing the Malconvoker. If we're just talking summoning, than yeah, the malconvoker gets off scot-free, because unless the malconvoker fails the simple Bluff check he has total control. The only potential for a counter-con by the demon is during a Planar Binding spell. I didn't consider mere summons in the argument. I ought to have been much more clear about that. >_<

Uh, Planar Binding is HIGHLY abusable, items or no items. Use Magic Circle Against Evil to trap a planar "ally" - that version lasts day/level. You then have a number of ways of swinging the check in your favor - eagle's splendor, moment of prescience, bestow curse, crushing despair, cause fear, geas it to do something impossible and leave for a few days - lots of recourses. They are stuck in that circle for a long time - use your imagination. Once you win, they're yours - have it give you their true name, any items in their possession, make it swear to take no action that would result in you coming to harm now or in the future, etc.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-24, 10:29 PM
A class can only lose powers if some part of its entry explicitly says so, like the Paladin base class or the Grey Guard prestige class.


An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.
If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class.

There's the text support. What exactly it means is uncertain, and up for debate. A DM could take the viewpoint that the cited passage refers to all prestige classes (including Dragon Disciple lol), thus allowing Malconvokers to "fall".


Such a statement proves nothing more than that you don't understand what the class is capable of.
I don't think such a strong level of incompetence can be proven by a single statement.


Lots of planar binding advice
Fair enough. I'm no wizard, after all - I'd do well to take advice from people more experienced with the mindset. :smallwink:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-24, 10:37 PM
This was the initial prompt, and I was responding to the initial prompt with a suggestion on how to make the prompt more viable without DM fiat. The initial prompt is reliant on Planar Binding rather than Summon Monster. As you mentioned, this means that the prompt will come up relatively infrequently, as solars are being bound more often than other creatures. But if the Malconvoker decides to bind ancient, corrupting fiends; it might be a good idea to give the fiends magic items that they, in their role as corrupter, might reasonably have.Because a Malconvoker is definitely going to allow him to keep those items. Removing them would probably be the first thing one does after casting the initial spell.

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 10:42 PM
There's the text support. What exactly it means is uncertain, and up for debate. A DM could take the viewpoint that the cited passage refers to all prestige classes (including Dragon Disciple lol), thus allowing Malconvokers to "fall".

Two things:

1) Malconvoker is in CS, not CW, so it's unclear what (if anything) that text is actually supporting.

2) This entire line of thought is moot thanks to Unrestricted Conjuration; specific trumps general.


I don't think such a strong level of incompetence can be proven by a single statement.

Lack of understanding is not "incompetence." His argument against Malconvoker stems solely from the dead level. I and other posters have demonstrated mathematically that this disadvantage is a pittance compared to what the class actually gains. Continuing to deny that is a lack of understanding. You are putting words in my mouth here.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-24, 10:43 PM
Because a Malconvoker is definitely going to allow him to keep those items. Removing them would probably be the first thing one does after casting the initial spell.

1) Malconvoker needs to know the items are there first, which the fiend's bluffing could impede somewhat.
2) Malconvoker doesn't benefit greatly from items that give yet another competence bonus to Bluff.
3) Malconvoker can easily manipulate Planar-Bound entities, which makes me ashamed I ever got into this argument. :smallfrown:


You are putting words in my mouth here.

Eh; I consider incompetence and lack of understanding to be analogous. You don't, apparently, and I apologize for implying that you did.

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 10:48 PM
Eh; I consider incompetence and lack of understanding to be analogous. You don't, apparently, and I apologize for implying that you did.

Lack of understanding simply means the person did not do enough research. Incompetence implies that even if they DID know the theory behind the Malconvoker, they would be unable to apply it themselves.

I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here; I'm assuming that his reasons for discounting the Malconvoker's summoning are due to not being aware of its tricks rather than lacking the requisite game skill.

Riffington
2009-11-25, 08:08 AM
The only "stupid" Malconvoker is the one that gets found out. As long as one hasn't been, he isn't stupid.

Lucky so far is different than sensible.



Also, nothing is stopping your Malconvoker from summoning goody-goody celestial creatures all day long either.
That's like saying nothing is stopping your Frenzied Berserker from staying home all day eating Mallomars. That's not how you become a Frenzied Berserker. If you don't go into battle and lust for blood, you don't get to take levels in that class. Levelling in Malconvoker means you make actual deals with actual demons. If you just summon Fiendish (or Celestial) Centipedes all day, you never learn to be a Malconvoker. You stay a Wizard with a focus in Conjuration.


I see it differently from you - it is the fiends that are the overconfident partners of the pairing. I see this as a delightful subversion, using their own tactics against them. Just the kind of con a Complete Scoundrel would go for.
You and all the malconvokers see it that way. Sometimes it works for a while.



That's a silly argument anyway; you might as well say "all PrCs with a dead level are useless." Such a statement proves nothing more than that you don't understand what the class is capable of.
For half your levels in the game, you have an equal highest level spell known, and for half you have a lower level. That is a major sacrifice and counts as a big deal.
The extra copy of a summon is a big deal that may be worth a lost level. The extended summon just isn't as far as I can see. Are there really other posters that agree with you that the extended summon is worth it?

Now, for the trade to be worthwhile given the Mal5 power, you have to spend some time with the character in possession of it. Which means you need a high-level game, and you need the Malconvoker to be very lucky in terms of not being entrapped in webs of corruption yet.



I don't know about your table, but the only things that make it to mine are what I want to go there. :smallconfused:
You can't spontaneously cast off the Western literary tradition. You can subvert it here and there, but you aren't starting your game with a tabula rasa.



The rules say "this class can trick demons." Deny that if you want, but again you're houseruling, and may as well just ban it to begin with.
The class can absolutely trick demons. Just not automatically or every time. And even if you do (or use planar binding tricks)... do you think his boss never keeps tabs on him? If you believe you have a bound fiend, but another fiend has freed him, you will be in trouble. Deny that if you want, but if you are giving the PC the power to auto-succeed on a Herculean task, you are the one houseruling. You have to play out that bit of plot. If someone plays a Spellthief and expects to actually rob wizards on the street of their magic... well, yes that's what the class is designed to do. It's still likely to go poorly for that Spellthief.

Optimystik
2009-11-25, 08:31 AM
That's like saying nothing is stopping your Frenzied Berserker from staying home all day eating Mallomars. That's not how you become a Frenzied Berserker. If you don't go into battle and lust for blood, you don't get to take levels in that class. Levelling in Malconvoker means you make actual deals with actual demons. If you just summon Fiendish (or Celestial) Centipedes all day, you never learn to be a Malconvoker. You stay a Wizard with a focus in Conjuration.

You keep making up rules that aren't in the text to support your argument. If you want to houserule the class that's fine, but nothing in its description says you can only summon fiends. Many of the class abilities become irrelevant if you don't, but you are not restricted in any way.


You and all the malconvokers see it that way. Sometimes it works for a while.

Right, that's where all the opposed checks come in. As long as you don't fail, it continues to work.


For half your levels in the game, you have an equal highest level spell known, and for half you have a lower level. That is a major sacrifice and counts as a big deal.

Naturally. But what you get - Free Twin Spell and Extend Spell - more than makes up for that.


The extra copy of a summon is a big deal that may be worth a lost level. The extended summon just isn't as far as I can see. Are there really other posters that agree with you that the extended summon is worth it?

If the Extend was ALL you got, then no. But it isn't. Why on earth would you take a prestige class if you didn't plan on getting to its most beneficial level?

If you think Wizards are so absolutely crippled by one lost caster level, I honestly don't know how to help you.


Now, for the trade to be worthwhile given the Mal5 power, you have to spend some time with the character in possession of it. Which means you need a high-level game, and you need the Malconvoker to be very lucky in terms of not being entrapped in webs of corruption yet.

Level 10 is not a "high-level game."

There are no "webs of corruption" by RAW. "Regular use of conjuration spells with the [Evil] descriptor does not threaten to change your alignment."


You can't spontaneously cast off the Western literary tradition. You can subvert it here and there, but you aren't starting your game with a tabula rasa.

Telling me what I can and can't cast off, and what I can and can't start my game with, really aren't helping your position here.

You don't like Malconvoker? Go ahead and rule that using it makes the character Evil. But you'd be wrong by RAW.


The class can absolutely trick demons. Just not automatically or every time. And even if you do... do you think his boss never keeps tabs on him? Deny that if you want, but if you are giving the PC the power to auto-succeed on a Herculean task, you are the one houseruling. You have to play out that bit of plot. If someone plays a Spellthief and expects to actually rob wizards on the street of their magic... well, yes that's what the class is designed to do. It's still likely to go poorly for that Spellthief.

Who said anything about auto-succeeding? There are many ways to swing the check in your favor and stay within the rules. If you don't want to use them, by all means fly by the seat of your breeches - you might succeed, or you might end up being one of the unfortunate malconvokers that you've been talking about. But it seems to me that a scoundrel makes his living by not fighting fair.

If the idea of being a class that tricks people for a living doesn't appeal to you... why on earth are you reading Complete Scoundrel?

dsmiles
2009-11-25, 08:43 AM
That's like saying nothing is stopping your Frenzied Berserker from staying home all day eating Mallomars. That's not how you become a Frenzied Berserker.

I dunno, the sugar content on those things...:smallwink:

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-25, 08:47 AM
And getting into those plastic packages?! GRRRRR!!!! :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

Urge to smash, rising....

Riffington
2009-11-26, 01:16 AM
You keep making up rules that aren't in the text to support your argument.
Please apologize. This is unworthy of you.



If you want to houserule the class that's fine, but nothing in its description says you can only summon fiends. Many of the class abilities become irrelevant if you don't, but you are not restricted in any way.

I never said you could only summon fiends. I said that at some point you had to deal with a fiend. Do you really believe that you can take levels in Barbarian and/or Frenzied Berserker if your character is a sneaky forger who never loses his cool and never picks up a weapon?



Right, that's where all the opposed checks come in. As long as you don't fail, it continues to work.
And as long as the demon's boss (himself a manipulative, controlling, vindictive, and paranoid sort) never catches on.



If the Extend was ALL you got, then no. But it isn't. Why on earth would you take a prestige class if you didn't plan on getting to its most beneficial level?

If you think Wizards are so absolutely crippled by one lost caster level, I honestly don't know how to help you.

Why are you using such strong language when we are in agreement? You admit that Extend isn't worth it by itself. I never said that twinning isn't worth a caster level. I have no idea whether it is or isn't. I said that a malconvoker is unlikely to remain uncorrupted long enough to use it much.



Level 10 is not a "high-level game."

I disagree. Teleport changes the nature of the game so completely that it deserves to be called a high-level game. You no longer need to worry about your location in the world, stormy seas, avalanches, or even pursuing armies. Scry-die becomes a thing. The game is not at all what it was.



There are no "webs of corruption" by RAW. "Regular use of conjuration spells with the [Evil] descriptor does not threaten to change your alignment."

This has nothing to do with [Evil] descriptors, and I'm not sure why you brought that up a second time. This has everything to do with demons. Saying demons don't spend centuries weaving webs of corruption by RAW is like saying that humans punish thieves by RAW. It's technically true, but unhelpful. A standard assumption is that demons corrupt and humans punish lawbreakers.



Telling me what I can and can't cast off, and what I can and can't start my game with, really aren't helping your position here.

You can't conduct your game in a vacuum. You and your players are affected by our culture and literary traditions. You just are.



You don't like Malconvoker? Go ahead and rule that using it makes the character Evil. But you'd be wrong by RAW.
I do like the idea behind Malconvokers. Using it does not make your character Evil by definition. It's just a nearly-inevitable consequence of your dealings with demons.




If the idea of being a class that tricks people for a living doesn't appeal to you... why on earth are you reading [I]Complete Scoundrel?
It does appeal to me. You should start with the assumption as a player that your character is up against more than he can handle. If this weren't true, malconvoker wouldn't require alignment:nonevil. An evil conjurer can summon fiends and even trick them. But there isn't the same kind of thematic interest because his soul was lost long ago.

Milskidasith
2009-11-26, 01:30 AM
And as long as the demon's boss (himself a manipulative, controlling, vindictive, and paranoid sort) never catches on.

Why would he? These are freaking summon spells; the demon's there for a couple minutes, and goes back, unharmed. Saying that demon's would chase you down for that is like saying that you're going to get Holy Worded by a Celestial because of your mistreatment of Celestial Badgers.


Why are you using such strong language when we are in agreement? You admit that Extend isn't worth it by itself. I never said that twinning isn't worth a caster level. I have no idea whether it is or isn't. I said that a malconvoker is unlikely to remain uncorrupted long enough to use it much.


Actually, it's incredibly easy to remain uncorrupted; his spells don't corrupt, and summon spells are what Malconvoking is about. There are far better options for Planar Binding than demons, so there's no corruption there (why bind evil creatures when you can bind solars)? Plus, your bluff is so high that you will literally never fail a check, and you will also never fail the opposed check for planar binding. There is literally no mechanical way the demon's will not trust your bluff and be forced to serve you if you planar bind them, and that isn't even a necessity.



This has nothing to do with [Evil] descriptors, and I'm not sure why you brought that up a second time. This has everything to do with demons. Saying demons don't spend centuries weaving webs of corruption by RAW is like saying that humans punish thieves by RAW. It's technically true, but unhelpful. A standard assumption is that demons corrupt and humans punish lawbreakers.


However, mechanically, it won't work on a malconvoker; planar binding gives you days to beat the check to make them into your servants who cannot hurt you, summoning isn't going to attract anybody (besides, if it did, it wouldn't be something you couldn't just kill, because it's only mass amounts of CR 9 or so demons, not stuff a Pit Fiend would be directly in control of), and there's not much else to say, honestly. You can't lose with planar binding and you can't lose with summoning. Again, it's also much more reasonable to bind solars than fiends.


You can't conduct your game in a vacuum. You and your players are affected by our culture and literary traditions. You just are.

But you still have to play by the rules of the game. If you think that malconvokers should be evil despite the fact that mechanically, there is no reason they would be deceived, then you should just ban the class.



I do like the idea behind Malconvokers. Using it does not make your character Evil by definition. It's just a nearly-inevitable consequence of your dealings with demons.

It's only inevitable by your DM Fiat.



It does appeal to me. You should start with the assumption as a player that your character is up against more than he can handle. If this weren't true, malconvoker wouldn't require alignment:nonevil. An evil conjurer can summon fiends and even trick them. But there isn't the same kind of thematic interest because his soul was lost long ago.


Uhh... that's not the fluff of the malconvoker, at all. The fluff is that he tricks evil creatures into doing good (or neutrality) for him. An evil character wouldn't need to trick demons because, well, they're already serving the same purpose: causing evil. That would be like saying I "tricked" a store owner by buying a +1 longsword from him at the normal price.

The point is, the Malconvoker is the one tricking demons, who have hundreds of years of cockiness making them think they are in control.

Riffington
2009-11-26, 01:38 AM
Why would he? These are freaking summon spells

No. We weren't talking about summon spells. We were talking about Planar Binding or making deals with Called demons involving Bluffing them.



Plus, your bluff is so high that you will literally never fail a check, and you will also never fail the opposed check for planar binding. There is literally no mechanical way the demon's will not trust your bluff and be forced to serve you if you planar bind them, and that isn't even a necessity.
Unless you happen to pick the wrong demon, or your demon's boss notices something.



But you still have to play by the rules of the game. If you think that malconvokers should be evil despite the fact that mechanically, there is no reason they would be deceived, then you should just ban the class.
Mechanically, there are a dozen reasons they would be deceived.



Uhh... that's not the fluff of the malconvoker, at all. The fluff is that he tricks evil creatures into doing good (or neutrality) for him. An evil character wouldn't need to trick demons because, well, they're already serving the same purpose: causing evil. That would be like saying I "tricked" a store owner by buying a +1 longsword from him at the normal price.

All evil creatures want the same thing and never trick each other? :smallconfused:


The point is, the Malconvoker is the one tricking demons, who have hundreds of years of cockiness making them think they are in control.

Cockiness and several hundred years of experience are unlikely to coexist.

Shyftir
2009-11-26, 02:07 AM
Isn't this thread supposed to be about Alienist? The pertinent class is not even mentioned in the third page. Maybe somebody should start a "argue about Malconvokers here" thread, instead of the big long distraction from the main point.

As for Alienist? I don't like it as a player class, pretty sure most of my toons would kill that guy to fend of the Snarl....err the denizens of the Far Realm.

Great enemy though. Nothing wrong with an full-casting prestige class as far as party function.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-26, 02:17 AM
No. We weren't talking about summon spells. We were talking about Planar Binding or making deals with Called demons involving Bluffing them.
Why are you talking about Planar Binding and Called demons? (also, side note, demons aren't particularly likely to develop the organized plan to trick a Malconvoker, that'd be a devilish sort of thing to do) Milskidasith, I'm nearly certain, is talking about Summon Monster and Summoned fiends.

The majority of the Malconvoker's class features work on Summon Monster only, not Planar Binding, including his two most powerful features (Deceptive Summons and Fiendish Legion). Neither even affects Planar Binding. The Malconvoker has exactly one feature that only works with Planar BInding on evil creatures (Deceitful Bargaining), and while decent, it's neither very necessary for the task (winning that check is merely a matter of how much time you want to put into it, since there are a number of things you can push it very much in your favor), nor a crucial part of the Malconvoker's flavor.

Really, the Malconvoker is going to be spending 99% of his time Summoning, not Calling, and when he Calls he's about as likely to Call a celestial as he is to call a fiend. Improved Calling does not require the creature to be bound be Evil.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-26, 02:19 AM
Isn't this thread supposed to be about Alienist. The pertinent class is not even mentioned in the third page. Maybe somebody should start a "argue about Malconvokers here" thread, instead of the big long distraction from the main point.

As for Alienist? I don't like it as a player class, pretty sure most of my toons would kill that guy to fend of the Snarl....err the denizens of the Far Realm.

Great enemy though. Nothing wrong with an full-casting prestige class as far as party function.The Alienist loses power to it's summons is the issue. Summoning is already weak, so making it worse isn't a good idea. And since the Alienist is a Summoner PrC, that's kind of an issue. Now, you could simply not summon with it, but that brings up the question of why you spent 2 feats on being a better summoner.
Other than the loss of Outsider summons, the class is basically a wash. You gain some stuff, lose some stuff, it's sort of like Fatespinner. Cool fluff, but no major benefits or reasons not to take it, other than the fact that you could be taking something better. Master Specialist gives you more benefits, and Master Specialist is often just filler in builds anyways.

Optimystik
2009-11-26, 03:01 AM
Please apologize. This is unworthy of you.

You're kidding. For what, exactly?


I never said you could only summon fiends. I said that at some point you had to deal with a fiend. Do you really believe that you can take levels in Barbarian and/or Frenzied Berserker if your character is a sneaky forger who never loses his cool and never picks up a weapon?

The requirements mention nothing about being forced to summon Fiends to either enter or progress. The most common fluff way of learning about the class is reading the Vital Pact, or the common Prestige Somehow, I doubt that would-be Frenzied Berzerkers get to read up on their PrC (the ones that CAN read, anyway.)

Naturally, you would want to - none of the class bonuses apply to non-fiends, after all - but if a Malconvoker wants to stay undercover/not freak out the commoners or paladin, etc., he is free to do so. Deal with it.


And as long as the demon's boss (himself a manipulative, controlling, vindictive, and paranoid sort) never catches on.

Because demons are well-known for sticking up for each other, or even paying close attention to their subordinates, right?


Why are you using such strong language when we are in agreement? You admit that Extend isn't worth it by itself. I never said that twinning isn't worth a caster level. I have no idea whether it is or isn't. I said that a malconvoker is unlikely to remain uncorrupted long enough to use it much.

Why do you keep saying "it isn't likely" when the class has a built-in way to maintain non-evil alignment?


I disagree. Teleport changes the nature of the game so completely that it deserves to be called a high-level game. You no longer need to worry about your location in the world, stormy seas, avalanches, or even pursuing armies. Scry-die becomes a thing. The game is not at all what it was.

Last time I took math, 10 was roughly half-way between 1 and 20, and was in fact closer to the 1 than the 20. Most character guides describe levels 9-13 as "middle of the road."


This has nothing to do with [Evil] descriptors, and I'm not sure why you brought that up a second time. This has everything to do with demons. Saying demons don't spend centuries weaving webs of corruption by RAW is like saying that humans punish thieves by RAW. It's technically true, but unhelpful. A standard assumption is that demons corrupt and humans punish lawbreakers.

What they do for centuries is irrelevant. Fail a Sense Motive, you don't realize you're being played. Anything else is metagaming. It's a really simple concept.


You can't conduct your game in a vacuum. You and your players are affected by our culture and literary traditions. You just are.

"Affected by culture and literary traditions" does not automatically mean playing them all straight. You can and in fact should subvert whichever ones you need to in order to make your story interesting.

If you want to play those traditions straight, by all means do so. Make summoning demons, no matter how successful the character is at tricking them, result in a bad end. In short, houserule away. But don't expect everyone, least of all me, to join you in ignoring the class description.


I do like the idea behind Malconvokers. Using it does not make your character Evil by definition. It's just a nearly-inevitable consequence of your dealings with demons.

Show me where it says that in the class description and I'll gladly cede the point.


It does appeal to me. You should start with the assumption as a player that your character is up against more than he can handle. If this weren't true, malconvoker wouldn't require alignment:nonevil. An evil conjurer can summon fiends and even trick them. But there isn't the same kind of thematic interest because his soul was lost long ago.

Why would you start with the assumption that a prestige class is incompetent at what they're designed to do? It makes no sense. :smallconfused:

In addition, those PrCs that do always result in bad ends spell it out. One key example is the very Alienist that started this thread (smooth segue back to topic!) getting dragged away to the Far Realm at the end of her life and never being seen again. The assumption therefore, is that those classes where the end is not specified, can go either way.

Riffington
2009-11-26, 11:01 AM
You're kidding. For what, exactly?
For falsely claiming that I "keep making up rules" such as that a Malconvoker "can only summon fiends".

Number one, any form of "you keep doing X" makes your argument into a personal attack instead of an actual argument. Number two, I haven't been making up rules (except perhaps the rule that losing PrC requirements causes you to lose the PrC powers, but I didn't make that up, it's genuinely unclear and I may well have been on the wrong side of that which I admitted) - I've been describing problems that have everything to do with the fundamental nature of deals with demons and nothing to do with the rules. So I want you to apologize for saying falsehoods about me and turning them into personal attacks. Just argue with my words, not with me.



I just want two answers.
1. Yes or no: If I am a sneaky forger who is uninterested in fighting, can I interview some Frenzied Berserkers in the gaol and take Barbarian/ Berserker without ever picking up a sword? Or at some point do I actually have to get blood on my hands?
2. If a player comes in with an idea for a malconvoker who starts out evil and stays evil would you say "sure no reason an evil summoner can't get those same power set. And alignment requirements are dumb anyway, go ahead.". Or would there be something missing (maybe some kind of a Faustian bargain) that makes this character uninteresting.

[quote]
Naturally, you would want to - none of the class bonuses apply to non-fiends, after all - but if a Malconvoker wants to stay undercover/not freak out the commoners or paladin, etc., he is free to do so. Deal with it.

I agree with this part. Not sure why you are adding heated words like "deal with it" to a sentence we both agree with.



Because demons are well-known for sticking up for each other, or even paying close attention to their subordinates, right?
Paying attention to? Hell yes. Your subordinates are powerful, cruel, treacherous, and scheming. If you don't pay attention to them (and your close rivals) then you are dead or enslaved and they are boss.
Sticking up for? Maybe, maybe not. You may be enraged that someone's stolen your toy. You may be amused, and think that toy brought its fate upon itself. You may see this as a piece of a larger game whose ultimate goal is the murder of a rival demon. I have no idea what the response is to "hmm, Drazel has been acting funny, and I think I know why".




Why do you keep saying "it isn't likely" when the class has a built-in way to maintain non-evil alignment?
They do? I really don't see one. Maybe you're referring to the class power to cast certain spells without those spells turning evil? Ok, well I have the power to eat Cheerios without turning evil. I've yet to claim that "he keeps summoning Vrocks for 20 rounds at a time" or "he puts beer on his Cheerios" are the reason he will eventually lose his soul. Delicious, delicious beerios.

[quote]
Last time I took math, 10 was roughly half-way between 1 and 20, and was in fact closer to the 1 than the 20. Most character guides describe levels 9-13 as "middle of the road."
I will let you define high level characters however you want. I explained why I consider "access to teleport" to be the start of high-level play. When "there's an army chasing you" means "oh, I just skip over to the next kingdom, no army poses a threat to me", you've reached high-level play. When you don't care where roads actually travel because you never use roads anyway, that's high-level play. When scry-or-die enters the picture, it's high-level play. But maybe you have a better reason than just "I divided 20 by 3". What happens at/by level 14 that fundamentally changes the game vs 10th level? I'm not trying to argue this point, I'm just asking.




What they do for centuries is irrelevant. Fail a Sense Motive, you don't realize you're being played. Anything else is metagaming. It's a really simple concept.
First off, why are you talking about metagaming? This is the DM we are talking about. Metagaming is not a concept that applies to DMs. If a DM didn't "metagame", when the players walked into a tavern lacking a writeup the game would have to stop until they found a new DM.

Fail a Sense Motive, and you don't realize you are being played *at the time you make the roll*. That's all that means. I can use bluff to convince you that my copper piece is just a very-tarnished gold piece. It's a successful con, but I move on quickly thereafter. Because even though I failed my Sense Motive at the time, I later polish up the coin or try to pass it onto someone else, and... well, at that point the con artist better be out of town.

Now I am curious: do you houserule that the con artist beat the victims's Sense Motive so theferore he remains convinced it's a gold piece even after he fails to burnish it or spend it? If so, how does that work for you?



"Affected by culture and literary traditions" does not automatically mean playing them all straight. You can and in fact should subvert whichever ones you need to in order to make your story interesting.
Absolutely. But you are making a special effort to change your game when you do that.



If you want to play those traditions straight, by all means do so. Make summoning demons, no matter how successful the character is at tricking them, result in a bad end. In short, houserule away.
If I am highly-successful at bluffing a merchant into handing me thousands of GP, will there eventually be consequences in your game? Would it be a houserule to suggest that at some point his brother might catch on?




Show me where it says that in the class description and I'll gladly cede the point.
Show me where in the Fighter's class description it says that people get angry when they are attacked. Is it a houserule to suggest that people will respond negatively to pain?



Why would you start with the assumption that a prestige class is incompetent at what they're designed to do? It makes no sense. :smallconfused:
So you think a Temple Raider of Olidammara should be able to raid temples with impunity? No chance they might bite off more than they can chew?



In addition, those PrCs that do always result in bad ends spell it out.

Blightlord. Temple Raider.


One key example is the very Alienist that started this thread (smooth segue back to topic!) getting dragged away to the Far Realm at the end of her life and never being seen again.
That's sort of a best-case scenario. There's another very strong possibility not included in the Alienist class description. Namely that the Far Realms beings she is contacting may actually turn a bit of attention towards her location, bringing horrible doom to the area. Also many tentacles.