[3.5 Gestalt] Sork'A'Din halp!

[sambo.]

**ATTENTION: If you mention any material contained in a splatbook*, please tell me which splatbook (amongst the library of splatbooks) you are referring too**

[Note: Splatbook is ANY material NOT available from d20SRD.org (http://d20srd.org)]

yo, i'm theorycrafting a gestalt build idea and would appreciate some input.

the basics: Paladin/Sorcerer. yuh, i know it's been done before, but i've not played a pally since 1ed (when they were grotesquely overpowered) and always thought the 2ed and 3.5ed core pally was a bit lacklustre overall. but, as a Gestalt build, i rekon the Sork'A'Din has a lot going for it (enough to overcome the restrictions of the base paladin class).

Said Sork'A'Din will be a Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut.

the concept is thus: a gish type. i'd like to be using a Katana as a weapon (assuming the exotic wep proficiency will be beefed up, probably to extend the crit threat range and multplier, otherwise suggestions pl0x (and no spiked chain cheese)). the character is the type who, while handy as an arcane caster, would, when faced with mass magic opponents, think nothing of slapping an anti magic field on themselves and wading into the [evil] Arcane Order up to their armpits in, well, in bits of the [evil] Arcane Order.

race: i'm open to suggestions that have a bonus to Charisma and, at the very least, no penalties to Constitution. MUST be a +0 LA race (if i can convince the DM to allow it, i'd like to take a variant on Lolth Touched (Bahamut Blessed) for +6 Strength/+6 Con and +1 LA (also assuming i can buy off the LA as appropriate)).

PrC's and multiclassing: this is where i'd really appreciate some input as to how to PrC the build. one main question: assume i take Incantrix as a PrC on the Sorc side, does the prohibited school only apply to Arcane Spells, or does it also apply to Divine ones? eg: if i ban Evocation on the Sorc side, does that preclude me from using Paladin spells defined as Evocation (Holy Sword comes to mind). anyhoo, as far as PrC's/Multiclassing is concerned, i suppose i'm looking for bonus feats?

Feats'n'Skills: here i be needing tha HALP!!!

Spells: Paladin spells seem to be pretty powerful defensive magic by and large. suggestions for Metamagic i should look into would be appreciated.

ready?

set?

SUGGESTIONS!!

[Dusk Eclipse]

I suggest a 3 level dip in Duskblade (PHII), it gives you full bab, some arcane spells (int though) but the real kicker is the arcane chaneling, you can use your weapon (in this case the katana) to deliver the spell, doing the spell damage and or effect (vampitic touch is a favorite of mine) and the weapon damage.

Also consider a reach weapon like a glaive.

Edit: if you want metamagic on your sorcerer side, I recomend the metamagic specialist ACF from PHII IIRC, it let you apply metamagic to your spells without increasing the casting time for I think Int bonus/day.

Skills: max bluff, I just love bluffing
Feats. Versatile Spellcaster: burn two lower level spells to cast one higher level spell. Complete arcane or complete mage I don't remember which one
Arcane strike: burn 1 arcane spell to gain a bonus equal to the level of the spell you burn to all your attacks that round and deal 1d4 x spell level

[Keld Denar]

As far as Incantatrix/Pally goes, no, if you ban a school on one side of gestalt, it doesn't ban it on the other, so it will not affect your pally casting at all.

As far as feats, I'd highly encourage you too look into Battle Blessing from Complete Champion, Law Devotion from Complete Champion, Arcane Strike from Complete Warrior? or Arcane and Minor Shapeshift from Complete Mage. Those are pretty standard gish feats, along with the ever popular Power Attack. Divine Might from Complete Warrior is decent, but you might run out of TU attempts if you are using a lot on Law Devotion, which, of the 2 is clearly better.

For spells, take mostly buffs. Greater Mirror Image and Greater Blink are awesome defensive buffs, along with all 4 Heart of X from Complete Mage. Whirling Blade is an amazing offensive spell, since it scales with your weapon and level via Power Attack and other combat feats, rather than most nukes that only scale with level. Then pick up some teleportation spells and you should be good.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sorry to get on a tangent, but where do you find greater mirror image?

[ravenkith]

First, before you get dead set on paladin, break out the Complete Warrior and check out the Hexblade class.

Done that? Ok, good. Moving on. Assuming that you still want to use a paladin, you now have to decide which one. Break out the Unearthed Arcana book (or the d20srd, whatever) and choose from among the three alternate types in addition to the PHB version.

I cannot suggest strongly enough the Paladin of Freedom version: for one thing, it grants certain class features that, strictly speaking, are superior for a caster type, and for another thing, it still grants the key features of a paladin (CHA to saves, big HD, high BAB, etc) while removing the greatest disadvantage for a sorceror - the stick up a normal paladin's huhu.

Normal paladins get nasty looks around the game table for lying, hell, even misleading people - which puts a damper on one of your most important charisma based skills - bluff...

Now, as soon as you have the capacity to do so, you're going to want to PRC on your sorc side. Since you are DEFINITELY a gish, try picking up All 5 levels of Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage).

Note: While picking up abjurant champion, your BAB and HD and will be going up independent of your paladin level: it can be a very good idea to use these abchamp levels as the perfect time to dip other classes (as long as they are base), (2 levels of fighter for 2 extra bonus feats is not a bad choice here).

Strictly speaking, however, after you have your second level of paladin, better benefits can be had elsewhere. <shrug>.

[Shadowbane]

May I suggest using the paladin in my sig? (Auradin) You may find it a great deal more, ah, effective than the original paladin.

[sambo.]

I cannot suggest strongly enough the Paladin of Freedom version: for one thing, it grants certain class features that, strictly speaking, are superior for a caster type, and for another thing, it still grants the key features of a paladin (CHA to saves, big HD, high BAB, etc) while removing the greatest disadvantage for a sorceror - the stick up a normal paladin's huhu.
true. at the cost of Death Ward. all-round, not a bad trade actually. CG is a lot more tolerant than LG in an rp sense.


Strictly speaking, however, after you have your second level of paladin, better benefits can be had elsewhere. <shrug>.
i'd want to stick around for the Mount @ pal 5 at least the extra 'hands is always nice.

mkay, abjurant champion looks worthwhile.

how about: Pal'o'Free 10/Fighter 2 (or 4?) /XxX8 on the paladin side. suggestions for XxX?

sorcerer side: Sorcerer10/Abj Champ 5/Archmage5?


Sorry to get on a tangent, but where do you find greater mirror image?
spell compendium iirc.

[Eldariel]

All I can say is, I love Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) in Gestalt. Apparent Defense looks fairly good for you.

[sambo.]

All I can say is, I love Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) in Gestalt. Apparent Defense looks fairly good for you.

malaka,

that looks like the shizzle. all those lubbly jubbly Ex class abilities.

i especially like the False Keenness (Ex!) that specifically stacks with Improved Critical.

i think all 10 levels of that might be in order. because if i'm reading that correctly: Flurry Of Swords (Ex) will function inside an Anti-Magic Field..... mirror images and all.....

it's an Ex ability. so it works just dandy in an AMF yuh?

m'kay:

Pala'free'Din 8/Arcane Duellist 10/Fighter 2?
Sorcerer 10/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage 5?

now we're getting somewhere. thanks so far guys, keep 'em ideas rollin!

[BooNL]

As you're going Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut, let me direct you to Dragon Magic.

The book has a couple of ACF's that can fit your character.
The first gives up Heavy Armour Proficiency for the ability to grow you own Dragonscale Husk. It's basically a free Full Plate, though you can't enchant it (it gains some AC over time though).
The second exchanges your paladin mount for a Drakkensteed. A dragonic horse. Though its fly speed is poor, the beast itself is pretty fun.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

For a weapon choice, may I humbly submit dipping a level of Warlock (CG, so goes well with Pally of Freedom) for Eldritch Glaive. You can pick up a toy from the Magic Item Compendium to increase your EB damage +2d6, so your *base* weapon damage is now 3d6. And it's a touch attack. And it ignores DR, since it is a spell-like ability. And damage is untyped, so energy resistance doesn't affect it at all. Then you get Supernal Transformation or whatever that feat is that lets you take an SLA and make is a (Su) ability, so it can ignore SR.

So, in addition to everything else you can stack on top of your Glaive, it's a touch-attack, starting out at 3d6, with virtually no way to avoid or mitigate the damage in any way.

All for a one-level dip and a feat.

[sambo.]

For a weapon choice, may I humbly submit dipping a level of Warlock (CG, so goes well with Pally of Freedom) for Eldritch Glaive. You can pick up a toy from the Magic Item Compendium to increase your EB damage +2d6, so your *base* weapon damage is now 3d6. And it's a touch attack. And it ignores DR, since it is a spell-like ability. And damage is untyped, so energy resistance doesn't affect it at all. Then you get Supernal Transformation or whatever that feat is that lets you take an SLA and make is a (Su) ability, so it can ignore SR.

So, in addition to everything else you can stack on top of your Glaive, it's a touch-attack, starting out at 3d6, with virtually no way to avoid or mitigate the damage in any way.

All for a one-level dip and a feat.

what is this Eldritch Glaive you speak of and in which book is it to be found?

small problem, a Glaive isn't a Katana, so further DM discussions would be required.

[Wings of Peace]

If you really want to make the Paladin side rock make it an Archivist (Heroes of Horror) with 4 levels in the Prestige Paladin variant (Unearthed Arcana/SRD) then take Knight of the Arcane Order (Complete Champion, could be wrong). You can now learn all spells excluding a very small handful. After that depending on your mood dip a level in Hathran (Player's Guide to Faerun) and maintain an Acorn of Far Travel (Far Corners of the World web enhancement) spell from a tree in Rashemen. You can now spontaneously cast almost any spell. You merely need it in your spell book. Acquire a Boccob's Blessed Book (Complete Divine, may have the name wrong) and you now really can cast almost any spell spontaneously. All as a "Paladin"

[PhoenixRivers]

spell compendium iirc.
You do not remember correctly.

[sambo.]

You do not remember correctly.
i take two points of nonlethal facepalm damage.

[sambo.]

race suggestions still sought.

[ravenkith]

Okay: I'm not sure whether you mentioned this before or not, but gestalt specifically suggests NOT allowing PRCs on both sides of the build simultaneously.

Since this is a theory build, this may not be a big deal, but I thought I'd mention it.

Strong suggestion: If you want a mount, buy a warhorse. You won't get enough out of it unless you take paladin ALL the way, and you definitely don't want to do that in a perfect world.

Picking up bonus damage is always a good choice...and skill points are tasty.

I am AFB ATM, so I might get some prereqs wrong, but I would suggest:
1. Paladin 1//Sorceror 1
2. Paladin 2//Sorceror 2
3. Paladin 3 //Sorceror 3
4. Paladin 3/Barbarian 1//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 1
5. Paladin 3/Barbarian 1/Rogue 1//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 1/Spellsword 1
6. Paladin 3/Barbarian 1/Rogue 2//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1
7. Paladin 3/Barbarian 1/Rogue 3//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 2
8. Paladin 3/Barbarian 1/Rogue 4//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3
9. Paladin 3/Barbarian 1/Rogue 5//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 4
10. Paladin 3/Barbarian 1/Rogue 6//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5
11. Paladin 3/Barbarian 2/Rogue 6//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5
12. Paladin 3/Barbarian 3/Rogue 6//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5
13. Paladin 3/Barbarian 4/Rogue 6//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5
14. Paladin 3/Barbarian 5/Rogue 6//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Fatespinner 1
15. Paladin 3/Barbarian 6/Rogue 6//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Fatespinner 2
16. Paladin 3/Barbarian 7/Rogue 6//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Fatespinner 3
17. Paladin 3/Barbarian 8/Rogue 6//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Fatespinner 4
18. Paladin 3/Barbarian 9/Rogue 6//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Fatespinner 4/Whatever 1
19. Paladin 3/Barbarian 10/Rogue 6//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Fatespinner 4/Whatever 1
20. Paladin 3/Barbarian 11/Rogue 6//Sorceror 3/Mage of The Arcane Order 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Fatespinner 4/Whatever 1


I THINK the above is right...

The one feat you absolutely cannot do without is Arcane Strike, from Complete warrior, IIRC. This will enable you to channel your spells into offensive buffs to attack and damage, even when you are raging.

This means that at no time are you cut off from one side of your build.

Second - this build is crazy mad - but don't sweat it, use polymorph to swap forms with a mad statline critter that can hold a sword.

Theoretically, with this build, you can wear light armor at earlier levels....later levels you SHOULD be using something better, like greater mage armor or some such.

As a level 11 barbarian, you get greater rage....but you may find you can do better with frenzied beserker and deathless frenzy (cannot for the life of me recall the prereqs and whether or not you could squeeze it in).

The Mage of the arcane order is from Complete Arcane and adds some much needed versatility to the build....when you need that ONE fricking spell, and you absolutely have to have it, MOTAO.

Fatespinner is just plain awesome...except the last level.

You have three remaining levels on the right side of the build that you can choose to play with by subbing sorc and taking a prc (frenzied berserker?) on the left side instead of barb levels, or you could slap in some archmage if you can meet the prereqs or some other low-cost-entry pr

[Foryn Gilnith]

Okay: I'm not sure whether you mentioned this before or not, but gestalt specifically suggests NOT allowing PRCs on both sides of the build simultaneously.

That's an actual rule. On the other hand, the injunction against classes such as Mystic Theurge is merely a suggestion.

[d13]

Lesser Aasimar (Player's Guide to Faerun) gets +2 WIS, +2 CHA, and every other Aasimar goodie, without LA

The only "drawback" that the race has is that you are Humanoid (Planetouched) instead of Outsider (Native).

[Dusk Eclipse]

For races, you might want to consider lesser (or normal) Aasimar, it gives a lot of good things, but the important thing is the CHA bonus.
Lesser aasimar is in either Forgotten Realms Campaing Setting or Player's Guide to Faerûn.

The aasimar is in MM, races of destiny and the planar handbook it has LA og +1 though

I hate ninjas

[ravenkith]

Human, Strongheart halfling are always good.

I've heard good things about water orcs, but the hits to cha and int might be ill advised...

Then of course there's always the anthropomorphic baleen whale from Savage species......(Funnily enough, that's a 3d8 0 la critter....

[erikun]

Please note that Gestalt does not (normally) allow taking a prestige class on both sides at the same level - you'll need to OK it with the DM. Something like Ravenkith's build doesn't need to worry about that, though.

Second, the Divine Crusader (Complete Divine) and Holy Liberator (Complete Divine) are very paladin-ish prestige classes. The Holy Liberator requires CG alignment, and is basically a chaos-fallen paladin, while the Divine Crusader must match your deity's alignment.

Any reason why you require a Katana? Because it is basically a bastard sword, which is spending a feat for an increase of a single die, or about +1 damage each attack.

[ravenkith]

Any reason why you require a Katana? Because it is basically a bastard sword, which is spending a feat for an increase of a single die, or about +1 damage each attack.

Actually, this is a very good point - plus, one handing is suboptimal.

Take a bastard sword, call it a katana, and use it in two hands for power attack loveliness!

[Foryn Gilnith]

Or, alternatively, take a greatsword and call it a katana, because looking at the one I have next to me, I think I'd take a lot more than a -4 attack penalty for trying to one-hand it...

[sambo.]

Actually, this is a very good point - plus, one handing is suboptimal.
but......

one-handing it keeps one hand free for somatic component spellcasting :smallbiggrin:

i could cast a quickened spell make a melee attack and a move action in the one round yuh?


use it in two hands for power attack loveliness!
one steap ahead of you: that's why i wasn't thinking about going two weapon fighting.

as for Katana vs Bastard/greatsword: i'll need to discuss it with a prospective DM, but i'm hoping the Katana will have an expanded critical threat range as it's bonus for needing the EWP feat to use it (bring it inline a little with the power of a spiked chain. say, 17-20 threat range for x3 crits?).

[Foryn Gilnith]

but......

one-handing it keeps one hand free for somatic component spellcasting :smallbiggrin:

i could cast a quickened spell make a melee attack and a move action in the one round yuh?

Same thing with a greatsword-refluffed-as-katana. Hold it in one hand and cast a quickened spell (you can hold the thing in one hand easy, attacking is harder). Put the other hand back on the hilt to make the attack. Take your move action, removing your hand from the hilt if necessary.

[sambo.]

ravenkith: thanks for the build idea, however 10 levels of Arcane Duellist strike me as being a pretty darned good deal on the Pally side. all those extra Charisma to X bonus EX abilities and that oh, so sexy looking critical threat range expander ability.

pally2/fighter8/arcane duellist 10 on one side?
sorc??/Abjurant champ 5/XxX on the other?

[ravenkith]

Just remember you cannot have a PRC on both sides of the gestalt at the same time.

Oh, and It should definitely be

Sorceror 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5//Paladin? /Whatever?/Whatever ?

Fighter 8 seems really suboptimal...why not Fighter 2/Barbarian 6?

Rage = free bonuses!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

what is this Eldritch Glaive you speak of and in which book is it to be found?

small problem, a Glaive isn't a Katana, so further DM discussions would be required.

Eldritch Glaive is a Least Invocation, and found in Dragon Magic.

And no, it's not a Katana. It's a blade of pure, coherent energy. Think Lightsaber.

[Keld Denar]

Make sure you get at least 4 levels of paladin in there, or look into taking some levels of Sacred Exorcist after a bit. Turn Undead is a HUGELY important class feature. You won't be using it to actually turn undead, you'll be using it to power Divine and Devotion feats. These are awesome. Divine Feats are mostly in Complete Divine and Complete Warrior, while Devotion feats are all in Complete Champion. I'd highly suggest Law Devotion, Travel Devotion, and possibly Divine Might or Divine Shield, if you plan on having an animated shield hanging around.

[PhoenixRivers]

Make sure you get at least 4 levels of paladin in there, or look into taking some levels of Sacred Exorcist after a bit. Turn Undead is a HUGELY important class feature. You won't be using it to actually turn undead, you'll be using it to power Divine and Devotion feats. These are awesome. Divine Feats are mostly in Complete Divine and Complete Warrior, while Devotion feats are all in Complete Champion. I'd highly suggest Law Devotion, Travel Devotion, and possibly Divine Might or Divine Shield, if you plan on having an animated shield hanging around.

+1. This is supremely good stuff, though you'd do well with a 1 level dip in a turning PrC.