d20 Rebirth - Open Alpha

[Fax Celestis]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/d20v1.png
Welcome to the d20 Rebirth Primary Alpha. While the game isn't itself complete, I feel it is usable enough in its current state to represent the majority of play. I'll use the findings from this beta to determine what needs to get changed to have a more cohesive game as a whole.


Available Material
You may use any material that appears in the d20r index below.

You may also use material that appears in the SRD that has not been updated by the d20r project, excluding the Fighter, Wizard, Druid, and material that comes from Unearthed Arcana, Deities and Demigods, and the Epic Level Handbook--in the former book, a lot of material from within it is either now irrelevant or has been hybridized into the system, while in the latter two books the material in them is no longer 'compatible' with how the final game will function.

You may also use material that appears in Lappy9000's Lords of Avramir Campaign Setting, but if you do, mark that you are using his material.

Also make sure to see the "On the Fly Fixes" header in the next post.


What You're Doing
There are three different kinds of play I'm interested in finding out about.

Theoretical Optimization
This is a case in which you build a character who is a one-trick pony: they are the best thing ever when it comes to their trick, but if presented with an obstacle that cannot be overcome with their trick, they're left out in the cold. Theoretical Optimization builds are not built to see actual play; rather, they are built to demonstrate a flaw in the system.


Practical Optimization
This is a case in which you build a character who is as powerful as possible, but are not so focused as to be useless at a task in which they are non-specialized. Practical Optimization builds, unlike Theoretical Optimization builds, are built to see actual play, but exploit a flaw in the system. Two Practical Optimization builds should be relatively equivalent in terms of power.


Casual Play
Casual Play characters are built without optimization in mind--they take feats and spells that make sense for the characters rather than are "the best" feats. While Casual Play characters can and sometimes do take the best options, they're taken for flavor rather than mechanical value. Casual Play builds are built to see actual play and only rarely exploit flaws in the system. Two Casual Play builds should be relatively equivalent in terms of power.


How to Report an Issue
Post your issue on this thread. Indicate your race, class, level, and equipment--or provide a link to your character sheet--and clearly indicate what the issue is. If you've solved the issue with a house rule, describe the house rule you've substituted to patch the problem. Also indicate which style you're focusing as with a small indicator ([TO], [PO], or [Casual]).


Fundamental Changes from the Original System
http://www.theanteheroes.com/pics/d20r.png
Image courtesy of AstralFire at The Anteheroes. (http://www.theanteheroes.com)
Players gain a feat at first level, at every level evenly divisible by three (3rd, 6th, 9th, etc.). Players also gain a feat when taking a level of a class that is evenly divisible by four (such as Rogue 4, Warlord 3/Dreadnaught 4, Fencer 8, or Ranger 6/Rogue 2/Bard 4).
Every four character levels, increase two attributes by 1.
Epic functions of skills are available in non-epic play.
If you have a class skill with at least one rank in it, use your actual ranks or one-half your level to determine your effective ranks when using the skill.
Cleric spells are still being worked upon: use their updated versions as they come out.
Balance, Escape Artist, and Tumble are now one skill, Acrobatics. It uses a Dex modifier, has armor check penalty, and is not trained-only.
Climb, Jump, and Swim are now one skill, Athletics. It uses a Str modifier, has armor check penalty, and is not trained-only.
Forgery and Sleight of Hand are now one skill, Legerdemain. It uses a Dex modifier and is trained-only.
Gather Information is now part of Diplomacy.
Hide and Move Silently are now one skill, Stealth. It uses a Dex modifier, has armor check penalty, and is not trained-only.
Listen, Search, and Spot are now one skill, Awareness. It uses a Wis modifier and is not trained-only.
Open Lock is now part of Disable Device.
Use Rope is now part of Survival.
Expect idiot flaws (like the commoner railgun, ten-foot ladders and poles, instant club crafting, and drowning rules) to be fixed appropriately.

The Index
Races
Ameena
Dromite
Drow
Dwarf
Elf
Gnome
Gnoll
Goblin
Half-Giant
Halfling
Human
Kobold
Lizardfolk
Maenad
Minotaur
Phoe-Kun
Russiti
Satyr
Shifter


Racial Classes
Aasimar (Celestial-touched)
Onori (Axiom-touched)
Phrenic (Psionic)
Tiefling (Fiend-touched)
Xel'gash (Anarch-touched)


Classes
Bard
Bladeweaver
Cartomancer – This class is incomplete; use it with caution
Cleric – Spells – This class is incomplete; use it with caution
Dreadnaught
Enlightened Devotee
Fencer
Hunter
Luckthief
Medium
Monk
Paladin
Ranger – Animal Companion option only
Rogue
Sorcerer
Warlord


Other Material
Skill Sets
Cartomancy skill
Initiative skill
Grapple skill
Investing Feats
More Investing Feats
Skill Knowledge and Flick of the Wrist Feats
Racial Feats
Racial Feats II
Racial Feats III
Racial Feats IV
Berserk Sandworm Style Feat
Leader's Obligation Style Feat
Brave Fencer Style Feat
Biblios
Librum
Elite Creature template

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1628/ubd7073.png

[Fax Celestis]

It's been nearly a year from the announcement of the project to this point. I can safely say that the game is about halfway done--but I can also say that the remaining portion is the hard part. It's going to take a lot of time, so in the interim I might as well make sure everything I've made so far works.

It's thanks to several people that I've come this far--Afroakuma; Lappy9000; Magnor Criol; Zeta Kai; Starsinger, Gralamin Shieldheart, Edea, NEO|Phyte, Flickerdart, neek (and the rest of the IRC crew); The Demented One; The Vorpal Tribble; Draz74; thegurullamen; Shneeky the Lost; Ashtagon; Telonius; Icewalker; Person_Man; ...and a lot more folks than I can really name without having just a giant list of names.

When I started this project, I did it with the idea in mind that I wanted the game I loved to be better: I knew it had myriad flaws and some very incredibly broken aspects, but I also knew that I, like anyone else with access to the Homebrew forum, had the power to fix it. So I decided to do so. And I never thought I'd end up where I am now.

So many bits and pieces of the project have changed partially--or even in some instances, completely--from what I originally had in mind. The most notable of these, the Cleric, isn't even done yet. Bear with me on that one, it's a beast.

Despite that, each little piece of this project is something I've decided needed to be part of the gaming experience, something I felt was either lacking or absent from the 3.5 game as we know it. And now, seeing all those pieces fit together into a larger tapestry is...well, it's fulfilling. I feel like what I've done here, so far, is worth something. And it's not even done.

But it will be, with your help. That's what this alpha's all about: making sure that what I consider to be fair and balanced to be actually fair and balanced. It's not going to be perfect--nothing ever is--but I will do my damndest to get within millimeters of that perfection and bring to you the game you deserve.

Thank you all, for everything.

-James Raine

On-The-Fly Fixes
Candle of Invocation does not have the gate function.
Personal cleric buff spells are touch spells.
Divine power gives a sacred bonus on attack rolls equal to 1/2 your CL, not increases your BAB.
Alter self lets you turn into any Humanoid creature with total character level (LA+RHD) less than 1/2 your caster level.
Bardic music ability costs double with each successive purchase of the same ability. The temporary HP option regenerates per-round, not per-song.
Dreadnaught's Supreme Cleave is capped at a maximum distance of movement equal to your normal land speed.
You cannot have more than six times your BAB invested in any one Style feat.
Races that have +2/-2 stat adjustments no longer provide stat penalties, just bonuses. Races that have +2/+2/-2/-2 stat adjusts instead have +2/+2/-2: essentially, pick one penalty and drop it.

[Gralamin]

If I just had a 3.X game, I'd start using this right now. Obviously we need a d20r game on the IRC :smallwink:

[Tavar]

Ooo....this looks interesting. Can't wait to see if some d20r games get started on the forum.

[Break]

If I just had a 3.X game, I'd start using this right now. Obviously we need a d20r game on the IRC :smallwink:

Do we have a volunteer? :smallamused:

[Gralamin]

Do we have a volunteer? :smallamused:

Well, I am only at 7 games a week currently. Though, I'd prefer to play :smallwink:

[Willfor]

Do we have a volunteer? :smallamused:

You have a volunteer player at the very least.

[Tavar]

Are there games on the IRC?

[Break]

Are there games on the IRC?

Yep, we meet up on IRC and actually play using MapTools. The games there are mostly 4E, though.

[Simba]

Nice, really nice. I am currently working on something similiar, would you accept an offer of cooperation of this? Or at least a sharing of ideas?

[Roc Ness]

What's IRC? I feel like trying this system when I get the time :smallsmile:

[Simba]

Internet Relay Chat, a program for chatting, really nice!

[Roc Ness]

Ah. Dang, I can't keep up with that stuff. :smallfrown:

[Cute_Riolu]

What's the IRC server you use?

[crazedloon]

another person down as a pc for a IRC game looks interesting will need to spend a few hours reading the whole thing

[Gralamin]

What's the IRC server you use?

See my Sig. In short, Gamesurge.

[Roc Ness]

Its not my server, its just that living in another time zone from most people here is not helpful. (Plus having intermittent free time doesn't help with people in similar time-zones either.)

Let me know if there will be a casual Pbp. :smallsmile:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Theoretical optimization: The Unstoppable Onslaught

Dwarven Dreadnought 20.

Uses Power Attack (10 points invested), Cleave (maximum invested), Weapon Specialization (maximum invested), Improved Critical, and uses a weapon with a high base damage.

Unrelenting Cascade is the class ability this build (ab)uses.

In brief, this is nearly identical, in every regard, to something that is as close to an Ubercharger as you can get in d20r. Now you add to all that damagee output the ability to apply that damage output to... everything. No, really. This guy can literally wade through an entire army. In one round. Holy crap, this guy is FAST in combat. If he had an army a mile long standing before him, he could go a mile in six seconds. Even more so, he could continue going back and forth, traveling many miles, in but six seconds.

The counter to this is something he cannot physically attack, or something he cannot reach.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Wow. I should visit these forums more often; I've missed this entirely. It looks like a lot of people, especially Fax, have put a great deal of effort into making the Paizo people look like buffoons (hehe), or rather obsoleting my (and likely many others') expansive but nowhere-near-as-good list of d20 house rules. Fax & Co. deserve all the accolades they get and more.

That means I'm just learning a new set of rules, so bear with me if I'm ignorant of certain balancing factors and other system novelties.


Theoretical optimization: The Unstoppable Onslaught

Dwarven Dreadnought 20.

*snip*To me this is exactly what the class is designed for. Maybe d20r is vastly different than 3e, but by level 20 I expect even my mundane heroes to be able to do crazy things like level armies with ease. That said, I suppose a limit in actual distance traveled might be in order.


Anyway, after skimming though the Dreadnaught, it seems like a fun class to play, but I found a small issue. I suppose this falls into [Casual Play]. I'll reprint the ability I'm worried about:

Elemental Resistance (Su): At 10th level, a dreadnaught can shrug off the effects of even the most damaging magics. When affected by a spell that inflicts elemental damage (that is, fire, cold, electricity, sonic, or acid), he reduces each die of damage by one, to a minimum of one. Bonus damage on top of each die is not reduced, and a spell affected by the Maximize Spell metamagic feat suffers no reduction. At 11th level, and every three dreadnaught levels thereafter (14th, 17th, and 20th), the amount subtracted from each die increases by 1, but still cannot reduce the damage per die to below 1.My problem here is actually counting the damage dice in play. Perhaps spells and other elemental abilities have changed more than I thought from 3e, but physically looking through something like 40d6 fire damage and subtracting, say, three from half the dice seems like a real chore for the player. I suppose it would be an easy penalty to program into a dice-rolling simulator, but not all players use that.

I understand that imposing a simple reduction of damage per die (and accounting for die type) might require a Gygaxian reference table, and the distribution won't be exactly the same, but it'll have the same mean damage, and in the end this method will mean less accounting for the players and DM. Also, and this might just be my ignorance of the system showing up again, I'm not sure why the Dreadnaught would resist a 6d6 elemental attack better than a 3d12 elemental attack.

Edit: Looking back on it, I realized my houserule suggestion was lacking in substance, so I crunched the numbers on Elemental Resistance's current average damage resistance per damage die by damage die type. You may have already done this; if so, you can head straight past the table.

{table=head]Die Type: | d4 | d6 | d8 | d10 | d12
Resist 1 | 0.75 | 0.833 | 0.875 | 0.9 | 0.916
Resist 2 | 1.25 | 1.5 | 1.625 | 1.7 | 1.75
Resist 3 | 1.5 | 2.0 | 2.25 | 2.4 | 2.5
Resist 4 | 1.5 | 2.333 | 2.75 | 3.0 | 3.166 [/table]

This leads me to the following:
1. The table of reduced damages I suggested previously obviously doesn't work with such fractional numbers without a whole new set of rounding and a series of tables. I'm not sure what to do about this other than changing the numbers slightly, or leaving it as is and suggesting some sort of diceroll simulator for instances of large numbers of damage dice.
2. Now I wonder not only why 3d12 damage would be less resisted than 6d6 damage, but why 1d6 damage would be resisted less than 1d12 damage.
3. Hm, this increases the potency a bit, but you could go with the "reduce damage by X per die" idea with a simple cap on minimum total damage being 1 per die. This would be my suggested damage reduction values, but flavor to taste:

{table=head] |
Resist 1 | 1 per damage die
Resist 2 | 1.5 per damage die, round down
Resist 3 | 2 per damage die
Resist 4 | 2.5 per damage die, round down [/table]

[Eldan]

Hmm. I might start a d20r game over Skype, casual play, if I ever get to read all the rules, or at least the basics, like skill sets and investment feats.

[Simba]

Hmm. I might start a d20r game over Skype, casual play, if I ever get to read all the rules, or at least the basics, like skill sets and investment feats.

Skype sound perfect to me if we can agree on the hours. Interested :)

[Eldan]

Well, you're european, I'm european...
As I said, maybe this weekend I'll put something up if I can find an adventure to run.

[Kurald Galain]

Wow, way to upstage Pathfinder! :smallbiggrin:

[Simba]

Well, you're european, I'm european...
As I said, maybe this weekend I'll put something up if I can find an adventure to run.

You live in Zürich? Half my family lives there!
I even understand some of your language :smallwink:

Like Chuchichaschli :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

You even have the better logo :smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

Wow, way to upstage Pathfinder! :smallbiggrin:

Not exactly hard, mind you... :smalltongue:

[Kroy]

Very interested in a game if it's getting started. I also did have plans to test the system over next summer, but I guess I can get started sooner.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Fax question for you.

I want to know a little bit more about your thought proccess.
Would you say d20r is more along the lines of people who like 2nd ed or people who liked TOB? (not saying that people who like 2nd ed can't like TOB), Also What level of lethality is your system would you say? I know your still in the alpha testing stage but just from your gut and from what you have seen from your games at home or on the boards.

[shaddy_24]

I might try a casual play Ravenloft with this. I'll put something up on the Recruitment page, though it will take a little while to shift the encounters over to d20r

[The Tygre]

Damn, now I'm gonna' need a way to print all of this out when it's done. I can already tell this is'll blow Pathfinder out of the water.

[Human Paragon 3]

Fax question for you.

I want to know a little bit more about your thought proccess.
Would you say d20r is more along the lines of people who like 2nd ed or people who liked TOB? (not saying that people who like 2nd ed can't like TOB), Also What level of lethality is your system would you say? I know your still in the alpha testing stage but just from your gut and from what you have seen from your games at home or on the boards.

I'm not speaking for fax here, just giving my opinion of the system. It is geared more toward complex mechanical elegance than it is toward pure abstraction. I would say ToB lovers will enjoy d20r more than the back-to-basics 2e-ers. Lethality seems similar to normal 3.5, maybe a little less because there is at-will healing available. Still more lethal than 4e.

[Person_Man]

W00T!

This is quite an accomplishment Fax. I'll see if I can convince my group to convert for a campaign. At the very least, you can expect a bunch of "Practical Optimization" posts from me.

[PO] Now that I see it all in one place, I noticed that a lot of your races are non-humanoids, and that this could lead to serious Alter Self abuse, and immunity to Whatever Person spells. Do you intend to re-write the spells, or re-write the racial type rules, or just tell people not to be douches and leave the Polymorph abuses alone?

[PO] Also, I think I've figured out a global fix for a lot of spells that allows for full backwards compatibility without a lot of fiddly re-writes.

All spells now have a duration of either Continuous or Instantaneous.

If a spell has a duration that is not Instantaneous (ie, rounds per level, minutes, hours, etc), it instead has a duration of Continuous. A Continuous spell lasts continuously as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating on a Continuous spell is a Swift Action, which you must maintain every round in order to maintain the spell. You may only have one spell in Continuous effect at any given time. If you are knocked unconscious, paralyzed, or otherwise rendered helpless, any Continuous spell you have in effect ends.

Instantaneous spells are unchanged. Casting an instantaneous spell does not end a Continuous spell that you may have in effect, unless you consume your Swift Action to do so instead of concentrating.

This tones down the problem of over-buffing, tones down Swift/Immediate Action abuse, eliminates some tedious duration bookkeeping, and it smoothes out a caster's power curve (making them more useful at low levels, and not as uber at high levels). The CoDzilla will still be very powerful. And you’re still going to have to re-write certain spells (I'm looking at you Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange) if your players abuse them. But for the most part, this allows for full backwards compatibility, without having to re-write each spell individually.

[Gralamin]

Drow Bard 20
20 charisma + 6 (Item) + 5 (Book) + 5 levels = 36 Charisma (+13 Modifier)
d12 Performance die = 6.5 on average
23 Ranks of Preform

23+13+6.5 = 42.5 Performance points. If spread around, this may be fine, but a few of what they can do:
42.5 Temporary Hit points to allies - probably a waste.
21.25 Sonic damage - probably a waste.
+21.25 morale bonus to attack rolls. (!!!)
-14.1666666... penalty to attack rolls for enemies (!!!)
14.16666 * 2 energy resistance.
10.625 *2 energy resistance lost on an enemy, potentially removing an immunity.
10.625 DR/-
+10.625 on saving Throws. (!!!)
Enemies take -10.625 on saving throws (!!!)
8.5 * 5 SR gained by all allies.
+8.5 * 2 to overcoming SR.
These effects last for at least 13 rounds + con modifier

How about a lower level?
Bard 10
20 charisma + 4 (Item) + 2 levels = 26 (+8 modifier)
13 Ranks of Preform
d8 Performance die (4.5 average)
25.5 Performance points. Lets look specifically at the (!!!) from last time:
+12.75 to hit for allies
-8.5 to hit on enemies
+6.375 on Saving Throws, or an equivalent penalty to enemy throws.
These last for at least 8 rounds + con mod.

These effects are still pretty devastating, and only get worse if you build your bard as a gish.
Performance to Hit + Extended Song + Not in the Face = Front-line combatant. This takes one round, using all actions.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I'm not speaking for fax here, just giving my opinion of the system. It is geared more toward complex mechanical elegance than it is toward pure abstraction. I would say ToB lovers will enjoy d20r more than the back-to-basics 2e-ers. Lethality seems similar to normal 3.5, maybe a little less because there is at-will healing available. Still more lethal than 4e.

Interesting. That s what i figured.

As much as im a huge fan of gritty I do think the at will healing in 3.5 (or atleast the only two i know about without some cheese) is relitivly balanced. touch of healing and the draconic vigor aura thing only healing to half is nice

[Gralamin]

Interesting. That s what i figured.

As much as im a huge fan of gritty I do think the at will healing in 3.5 (or atleast the only two i know about without some cheese) is relitivly balanced. touch of healing and the draconic vigor aura thing only healing to half is nice

Luckily, Fax realizes that if he has at-will healing, then simply HP Is no longer a resource outside of battle, and adjust accordingly.

[Riffington]

One thing that bothers me about a lot of the racial paragon classes in D&D is the "add 2/3 caster" thing. If you're a caster, you probably hate not getting full casting. If you aren't, it's this wasted bonus. You continued this with your Aasimar/etc.

So I was wondering if there's a way to make that mechanic better.
A: I misunderstand and it's actually a fine mechanic?
B: it's not a big deal because spells are toned down in Rebirth?
C: maybe there's a list of alternative class features that a noncaster can trade a +1spellcasterlevel for?

[Fax Celestis]

Theoretical optimization: The Unstoppable Onslaught

Hm. Would a cap at maximum of 30' of movement fix that problem?


My problem here is actually counting the damage dice in play. Perhaps spells and other elemental abilities have changed more than I thought from 3e, but physically looking through something like 40d6 fire damage and subtracting, say, three from half the dice seems like a real chore for the player. I suppose it would be an easy penalty to program into a dice-rolling simulator, but not all players use that.

Ah, see. what you do is just go 40d6-40, with a minimum result of 40. Most instances of +x% damage (like Empower Spell) will eventually be switching to +x damage per die anyway, so this'll be come less of an issue.


I want to know a little bit more about your thought proccess.
Would you say d20r is more along the lines of people who like 2nd ed or people who liked TOB? (not saying that people who like 2nd ed can't like TOB), Also What level of lethality is your system would you say? I know your still in the alpha testing stage but just from your gut and from what you have seen from your games at home or on the boards.

Probably ToB. The idea is to give each class something unique that no-one else can do, and also attempt to make those features still viable at higher levels.


Damn, now I'm gonna' need a way to print all of this out when it's done. I can already tell this is'll blow Pathfinder out of the water.

When it's done, there'll be a book.


[PO] Now that I see it all in one place, I noticed that a lot of your races are non-humanoids, and that this could lead to serious Alter Self abuse, and immunity to Whatever Person spells. Do you intend to re-write the spells, or re-write the racial type rules, or just tell people not to be douches and leave the Polymorph abuses alone? Alter self is going to change to something less broken. More like disguise self+ rather than polymorph lite. For now, treat it like it allows you to change into any Humanoid creature (not Monstrous Humanoid) with a total effective character level (HD+LA) equal to or less than 1/2 your CL.


[PO] Also, I think I've figured out a global fix for a lot of spells that allows for full backwards compatibility without a lot of fiddly re-writes.

I'll consider that.

Bard stuff
What happens if you increase the cost by 1 per purchase? By 2? Doubling?


One thing that bothers me about a lot of the racial paragon classes in D&D is the "add 2/3 caster" thing. If you're a caster, you probably hate not getting full casting. If you aren't, it's this wasted bonus. You continued this with your Aasimar/etc.

The "10/10 caster level prestige class" will be gone, for starters. For another, the racial paragons and the racial progressions--in comparison with their original incarnations--actually are more compatible rather than less. The aasimar, for example, is closer to the Celestial template than it is to the Aasimar. The Celestial template is +2 LA and provides no spellcasting. The Aasimar racial class is 3 levels and provides 2/3 casting.

[Human Paragon 3]

Hm. Would a cap at maximum of 30' of movement fix that problem?


Cap it at 1 cleave per character level?

[Fax Celestis]

Cap it at 1 cleave per character level?

It's a 20th level ability which is what's causing the Endless March.

[Mythestopheles]

I'd probably cap it at your movement speed.

[Oslecamo]

Expect idiot flaws (like the commoner railgun, ten-foot ladders and poles, instant club crafting, and drowning rules) to be fixed appropriately.

Just to point out that two of those are fixed already.

A ladder broken in half does not make 2 market aproved 10 foot poles. It just makes a pair of pieces of wood with lots of holes and that can't be properly handled, aka a broken stair.

Commoner railgun doesn't work because there's no lateral inertia in D&D. If a creature is flying at 240 feets per turn, and it's sudenly paralyzed, it falls down in a straight line. You don't gain any damage bonus from throwing a projectile while moving forward even if you're on the top of a train moving at full speed. Ect ect.

Thus, you can pass an item trough a lot of commoners in a single turn, but when the last one picks it up and throws it, well, it's just a completely normal ranged attack.

Really, most idiot flaws out there only work if the people reading them are idiots themselves (or try to aply rules that aren't there).

[jmbrown]

This may have been answered as I only read the OP and a few posts after, but do you [Fax] have an established level of power? Right now, I'm thinking of building characters purely by the elite array but I believe it's important for play testing to establish a universal system of power. Maybe a 32 point build as that is in the upper heroic level.

[Fax Celestis]

This may have been answered as I only read the OP and a few posts after, but do you [Fax] have an established level of power? Right now, I'm thinking of building characters purely by the elite array but I believe it's important for play testing to establish a universal system of power. Maybe a 32 point build as that is in the upper heroic level.

I prefer rolling rather than PB, and my preferred method is 5d4. If I use PB, I like a 32 point build.

[Gralamin]

What happens if you increase the cost by 1 per purchase? By 2? Doubling?


+1 per purchase

Drow Bard 20
20 charisma + 6 (Item) + 5 (Book) + 5 levels = 36 Charisma (+13 Modifier)
d12 Performance die = 6.5 on average
23 Ranks of Preform

23+13+6.5 = 42.5 Performance points. If spread around, this may be fine, but a few of what they can do:
8 Temporary hit points, 6.5 points left
7 sonic damage, 7.5 points left
+7 to hit, 7.5 points left
-7 for enemies to hit, .5 points left
14 energy resistance. .5 points left
12 energy resistance lost on an enemy, potentially removing an immunity. 3.5 points left
6 DR/- 3.5 points left.
+6 on saving Throws. 3.5 points left
Enemies take -6 on saving throws. 3.5 points left.
25 SR, gained by all allies. 7.5 points left
+10 to overcoming SR.
These effects last for at least 13 rounds + con modifier

Bard 10
20 charisma + 4 (Item) + 2 levels = 26 (+8 modifier)
13 Ranks of Preform
d8 Performance die (4.5 average)
25.5 Performance points. Lets look specifically at the (!!!) from last time:
+5 to hit for allies, 5.5 points left over.
-5 to hit for enemies, 0.5 points left over.
+4 on Saving Throws, or an equivalent penalty to enemy throws. 3.5 points left over.
These last for at least 8 rounds + con mod.

+2 per purchase

Drow Bard 20
20 charisma + 6 (Item) + 5 (Book) + 5 levels = 36 Charisma (+13 Modifier)
d12 Performance die = 6.5 on average
23 Ranks of Preform

23+13+6.5 = 42.5 Performance points. If spread around, this may be fine, but a few of what they can do:
6 Temporary hit points, 6.5 points left
6 sonic damage, 0.5 points left
+6 to hit, 0.5 points left
-5 for enemies to hit, 7.5 points left
10 energy resistance. 7.5 points left
10 energy resistance lost on an enemy, potentially removing an immunity. 2.5 points left
5 DR/- 2.5 points left.
+5 on saving Throws. 2.5 points left
Enemies take -5 on saving throws. 2.5 points left.
20 SR, gained by all allies. 10.5 points left
+8 to overcoming SR. 10.5 points left.
These effects last for at least 13 rounds + con modifier

Bard 10
20 charisma + 4 (Item) + 2 levels = 26 (+8 modifier)
13 Ranks of Preform
d8 Performance die (4.5 average)
25.5 Performance points. Lets look specifically at the (!!!) from last time:
+4 to hit for allies, 5.5 points left over.
-4 to hit for enemies, 1.5 points left over.
+3 on Saving Throws, or an equivalent penalty to enemy throws. 7.5 points left over.
These last for at least 8 rounds + con mod.


Double

Drow Bard 20
20 charisma + 6 (Item) + 5 (Book) + 5 levels = 36 Charisma (+13 Modifier)
d12 Performance die = 6.5 on average
23 Ranks of Preform

23+13+6.5 = 42.5 Performance points. If spread around, this may be fine, but a few of what they can do:
6 Temporary hit points, 10.5 points left.
5 sonic damage, 10.5 points left
+5 to hit, 10.5 points left
-4 for enemies to hit, 18.5 points left
8 energy resistance. 18.5 points left
8 energy resistance lost on an enemy, potentially removing an immunity. 10.5 points left
4 DR/- 10.5 points left.
+4 on saving Throws. 10.5 points left
Enemies take -4 on saving throws. 10.5 points left.
20 SR, gained by all allies. 2.5 points left
+4 to overcoming SR. 2.5 points left
These effects last for at least 13 rounds + con modifier

Bard 10
20 charisma + 4 (Item) + 2 levels = 26 (+8 modifier)
13 Ranks of Preform
d8 Performance die (4.5 average)
25.5 Performance points. Lets look specifically at the (!!!) from last time:
+4 to hit for allies, 9.5 points left over.
-4 to hit for enemies, 1.5 points left over.
+3 on Saving Throws, or an equivalent penalty to enemy throws. 9.5 points left over.
These last for at least 8 rounds + con mod.

[Morty]

I've made some d20r characters - a Goblin Ranger, a Drow Sorcerer, a Dwarven Dreadnaught and a Human Paladin to be precise - so I suppose I'll post them here once I go back home and find their sheets. I think I've had some problems with Dreadnaught's prowess points, but I'm not sure. They were all 4th level, used 32 point buy and standard WBL.

[Fax Celestis]

Going to be using the Doubling system for the Bard for now.

[Eldan]

I've started writing an excel character sheet for this project. I'll see if I can finish it tomorrow, then I'll upload it somewhere.

[Fax Celestis]

I've started writing an excel character sheet for this project. I'll see if I can finish it tomorrow, then I'll upload it somewhere.

Try GoogleDocs (http://docs.google.com).

[kjones]

[PO] Also, I think I've figured out a global fix for a lot of spells that allows for full backwards compatibility without a lot of fiddly re-writes.

All spells now have a duration of either Continuous or Instantaneous.

If a spell has a duration that is not Instantaneous (ie, rounds per level, minutes, hours, etc), it instead has a duration of Continuous. A Continuous spell lasts continuously as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating on a Continuous spell is a Swift Action, which you must maintain every round in order to maintain the spell. You may only have one spell in Continuous effect at any given time. If you are knocked unconscious, paralyzed, or otherwise rendered helpless, any Continuous spell you have in effect ends.

Instantaneous spells are unchanged. Casting an instantaneous spell does not end a Continuous spell that you may have in effect, unless you consume your Swift Action to do so instead of concentrating.

This tones down the problem of over-buffing, tones down Swift/Immediate Action abuse, eliminates some tedious duration bookkeeping, and it smoothes out a caster's power curve (making them more useful at low levels, and not as uber at high levels). The CoDzilla will still be very powerful. And you’re still going to have to re-write certain spells (I'm looking at you Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange) if your players abuse them. But for the most part, this allows for full backwards compatibility, without having to re-write each spell individually.

This sounds similar to the casting system in Shadowrun, with the distinction that you can "sustain" multiple spells at once, but it becomes progressively harder to do so (or anything else - a flat -2 penalty per spell sustained to all actions).

What I'm saying is, it works well there.

[jmbrown]

I prefer rolling rather than PB, and my preferred method is 5d4. If I use PB, I like a 32 point build.

Well, the problem with rolling is that characters will be of vastly different power making play test difficult. Also, you use 5d4? So your system has no problem handling characters with possible 20s?

[Fax Celestis]

Well, the problem with rolling is that characters will be of vastly different power making play test difficult. Also, you use 5d4? So your system has no problem handling characters with possible 20s?

The chances of getting a 20 on 5d4 is <1%. See the charts:

3d6 bell curve
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/bellCurve3d6.png
Much lower chance of an average roll, higher chance of an outlier (high or low) score. 3-18 range.

5d4 bell curve
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/bellCurve5d4.png
Higher chance of an average roll, lower chance of an outlier score. 5-20 range

4d4+2 bell curve
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/bellCurve4d42.png
Shallower bell curve than 5d4, so a slightly higher chance of an outlier score. 6-18 range.

5d4-2 bell curve
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/bellCurve5d4-2.png
Same steep bell curve as 5d4, but has a 3-18 range.

[jmbrown]

My point is, if you're play testing for balance purposes you wan't to set a universal level of power or else you'll get characters of vastly different levels. I'll use a 32-point buy for theoretical and practical and 5d4 for casual.

[Eldan]

Question: I haven't looked at races yet, but are there any of sizes other than medium or small? Because I can't figure out how to make Excel accept more than two classes of size modifiers.

[Fax Celestis]

Question: I haven't looked at races yet, but are there any of sizes other than medium or small? Because I can't figure out how to make Excel accept more than two classes of size modifiers.

No, but there are some Mediums with Powerful Build.

[Zemro]

Players gain a feat at first level, at every level evenly divisible by three (3rd, 6th, 9th, etc.). Players also gain a feat when taking a level of a class that is evenly divisible by four (such as Rogue 4, Warlord 3/Dreadnaught 4, Fencer 8, or Ranger 6/Rogue 2/Bard 4).

Just to make sure that I'm processing this correctly, ignoring class bonus feats and assuming classing taken in written order.

Rogue 4: 3 Feats (1st, 3rd, 4th)
Warlord 3/Dreadnaught 4: 4 Feats (1st, 3rd, 6th, 7th)
Fencer 8: 5 Feats (1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 8th)
Ranger 6/Rogue 2/Bard 4: 7 Feats (1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 9th, 12th, 12th)

[Fax Celestis]

Just to make sure that I'm processing this correctly, ignoring class bonus feats and assuming classing taken in written order.

Rogue 4: 3 Feats (1st, 3rd, 4th)
Warlord 3/Dreadnaught 4: 4 Feats (1st, 3rd, 6th, 7th)
Fencer 8: 5 Feats (1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 8th)
Ranger 6/Rogue 2/Bard 4: 7 Feats (1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 9th, 12th, 12th)

Correct on all counts.

[Belobog]

W00T!

This is quite an accomplishment Fax. I'll see if I can convince my group to convert for a campaign. At the very least, you can expect a bunch of "Practical Optimization" posts from me.

[PO] Also, I think I've figured out a global fix for a lot of spells that allows for full backwards compatibility without a lot of fiddly re-writes.

All spells now have a duration of either Continuous or Instantaneous.

If a spell has a duration that is not Instantaneous (ie, rounds per level, minutes, hours, etc), it instead has a duration of Continuous. A Continuous spell lasts continuously as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating on a Continuous spell is a Swift Action, which you must maintain every round in order to maintain the spell. You may only have one spell in Continuous effect at any given time. If you are knocked unconscious, paralyzed, or otherwise rendered helpless, any Continuous spell you have in effect ends.

Instantaneous spells are unchanged. Casting an instantaneous spell does not end a Continuous spell that you may have in effect, unless you consume your Swift Action to do so instead of concentrating.

This tones down the problem of over-buffing, tones down Swift/Immediate Action abuse, eliminates some tedious duration bookkeeping, and it smoothes out a caster's power curve (making them more useful at low levels, and not as uber at high levels). The CoDzilla will still be very powerful. And you’re still going to have to re-write certain spells (I'm looking at you Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange) if your players abuse them. But for the most part, this allows for full backwards compatibility, without having to re-write each spell individually.

I really like this idea, but perhaps one could increase the number of spells one can concentrate on through a variable they already have? I could see either Caster Level or ranks in Concentrate working for that, especially if it's a high amount; say, for instance, 10 ranks or 10 CL would allow you to focus on one additional spell at a time. If need be, it could make the Concentration check per round higher, if it's proven to be too much.

[jmbrown]

I'm creating a minotaur monk right now because I can think of some disgusting power builds especially those focused around charging. Quick question and I don't want to necro the topic; monks no longer change die type based on size? So a powerful build/large/small monk would deal the same damage as a medium monk?

[Fax Celestis]

I'm creating a minotaur monk right now because I can think of some disgusting power builds especially those focused around charging. Quick question and I don't want to necro the topic; monks no longer change die type based on size? So a powerful build/large/small monk would deal the same damage as a medium monk?

Correct. They do, however, apply that damage to melee special monk weapons.

[Zemro]

Thanks for the feat clarification.

I've moved on to feeling out the different classes and changes before playing around with builds, and noticed something with the skills.

On the page for skill sets, some of the sets have skills that you've listed here in the alpha thread as being already subsumed into other skills. Should I assume that they have the skill that is a part of, or is there something else there that I've missed?

[Fax Celestis]

On the page for skill sets, some of the sets have skills that you've listed here in the alpha thread as being already subsumed into other skills. Should I assume that they have the skill that is a part of, or is there something else there that I've missed?

...which ones have that problem?

[Lunix Vandal]

[TO]-ish: It's possible to get the Berserk Sandworm style feat maxed out by level 12, as follows:

(Any Race) Dreadnaught 12
Stats are largely irrelevant but high Str/Con (before racial mods) is preferred due to Berserk Sandworm's capstone ability.

Dreadnaught 1 Bonus Feat: Power Attack (possibly retrained to anything else at Level 2, when it's gained as an automatic bonus feat)
Character Level 1 Feat: Berserk Sandworm, with 91 Prowess invested (split between the various abilities as needed).
The feats from reaching CL 3/6/9/12 and Dreadnaught 2/4/5/8/12 are largely irrelevant, for the same reason. We can invest a grand total of 5 Prowess in these feats.

So at Level 12, we've got 12 rounds/day that we can (and will) spend as a CL 19 powerhouse. If we burn a swift action in the first round to activate Bloodwrath, we can throw in DR 6/-, +6 Str, +2 Con, two 3d6 claw attacks, and increase our base bite damage to 4d6. From there, anything we bite is subject to a Grapple attempt -- going off of the Sandworm's original statblock, our bonus is in the mid-40s at least -- and after that we can force them to take 104 electricity damage (with a DC high-20s-ish Reflex save for half).Using Swallow Whole close to the end of Bloodworm's Corruption's duration might not be the best idea (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html), however, depending on your DM.

Strengths: Anything that a thusly improved Stormseeker Sandworm can do (or kill) in 12 rounds or less. This includes probably every combat encounter appropriate to a 12th-level party.
Weaknesses: Everything else, or if we have to do it more than once per day. Except, of course, that we're still a Dreadnaught 12 with all of the other abilities granted by Berserk Sandworm. :smalltongue:

For extra lulz, use it as an assassin: get a reliable map of the dungeon, note that the BBEG's lair has a wall or floor that we can burrow to (preferably with Berserk Sandworm's other abilities), do so, fire up Bloodworm's Corruption, full-attack and breath weapon the hopefully-not-immune-to-electricity BBEG a few times, then run-burrow back the way we came in.

[Zemro]

...which ones have that problem?

As far as I've noticed, it's only been with the Search and Gather Information skills.

Search: Explorer, Lawman, Spy, Thief, Trapper

Gather Information: Adventurer, Bard, Bodyguard, Diplomat, Guard, Merchant, Socialite, Spy

Though the Trapper skill set already has the Awareness skill, so the point is moot there.

Wait, I'm a moron. Got turned around with some of the links on other pages and ended up at the old skill set page as opposed to the new one.

[Fax Celestis]

Absolute horror

Would it fix the problem to put prerequisites on the individual abilities, such as a BAB or skill requirement, that would force it into level 16+ play (where it's intended for use)?

[Sila Prirode]

Wooo, I have been waiting for this :smallsmile:
So, a bit of background:
My group has already been converted (partially at least) to a d20r game. So far, we have a two Clerics, Sorcerer and Bladeweaver for classes.
For the rest, we don't use Prowess per se, but anyone who takes feats that have Investing are considered to be "leveled" accordingly.
Also, a bit of homebrewed feats were added, for Cleric mostly.

Recap for now:

It's going pretty smooth, Bladeweaver is going to be a nice "tankish" character with Grease seed to apply on melee (and ranged) damage, and ridiculous amounts of temporary hp on level 7 by taking Invigorating Secret on Wolf seed.
Sorcerer is going to be a blasty type, focusing on Acid and Fire Seeds. I even pulled together a nice PrC for her to go into :)

For the Clerics, one of them is going for Animal Domain, with Air and Travel Devotions. For now he is a little bit of summoner, and a little bit of buffs, mostly in utility range. Other Cleric is going with Life Domain, and Protection and Sun Devotions, and since we are starting Ravenloft in 5 days (can't wait :smallbiggrin: ) it would start to pay off. He is primarily a blaster, but has a nice supportive and defensive capabilities.

If you want to know some more details on this feel free to PM me :smallsmile:

PS to Fax: I'm keeping a track of things I noticed, like what my be a little unbalanced, and similar. I'm planning on sending a huge PM or mail to you when I get some more info (about group level 12 or 13).

Cheers, and thanks for making this game a much better past time :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

[PO]

Halfling Monk/Onori

This looks to be a particularly strong lockdown/damage build. I'm still reading up on the details, but Onori (lawful outsider two-level PrC) seems to synergize awesomely with both Halfling (Natural Talent can be used to fuel class abilities as well), and Monk (increases to Atma and Strikes at the second level).

Because monk unarmed damage is not changed based on size, one can safely use Halfling as the race to get the additional benefits of higher AC and Attack of a Small race, in addition to a further increase to Dex to make your attacks land more frequently.

Benefits:

Onori:

All weapon and armor proficencies. This works well with the monk Unorthodox Training feat to be able to theoretically use any weapon as a monk weapon.

Shield of Truth: Most of these abilities increase the Natural Talent racial ability from Halflings and use them to power different things, which can be exceedingly useful.

DR/Silver. How often are your opponents going to be using silvered weapons? In many ways, this is superior to DR/Magic or even DR/alignment. A Monk is going to be mixing it up in melee frequently, having a source of DR is invaluable.

FUll BAB. You get +2 BAB out of 2 levels, which is actually better than the Monk progression.

As far as strikes, you can use a lot of 'save or loose' effects here.

Apprentice: I'd go with Eye Gouge and Nervestrike as a Reflex Save and Will Save SoL respectively. Flurry of Blows will be handy if we plan on dishing out damage. Gentle Fist is nice if you know you're going to be facing lots of incorporeals, but likely subsumed by an Initiate Strike.

Initiate: Addling Strike is good if you didn't get Nervestrike, but on the whole, I'd rather be able to CDG then confuse, so Nervestrike seems more valuable to me. Dayburst Fist is exceedingly good if facing lots of undead, but the flare can be Friendly Fire, which isn't a good thing. Eviscerating Slash is exceedingly useful, and one which I would expect most monks to pick up. Stunning Fist is something to pick up to target Fort saves. Now I've got something that is Save or Loose that targets all three saves, although they don't apply to things that ignore crits.

Master: Arcane Recoil. Must-Have for every monk. Period. Yes, even then. This is what can make a Monk able to take down a caster in one hit, which is the *ONLY* way to take one down. Likewise, Roots of the Earth will counter teleportation options. The other options are... fun... but not critical.

Grandmaster: Only one of these doesn't have a Will save, and most of them target casters, who have exceedingly high Will saves. Frozen in Time is of limited use, mostly to take an opponent temporarily out of the fight and deal with it later. Quivering Palm is a good one, one of two Strikes which actually targets Fort save, and it is an SoD.

Weaknesses:

Against things immune to crits, he is still useful, but not a lockdown specialist. Against these, he would use Eviscerating Slash to bypass DR if a construct, or Dayburst Strike if undead, but otherwise just has Flurry of Blows and raw damage output to contribute.

[jmbrown]

Just created Mino the Monk (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=32199), a theoretical build using 32 points. He's optimized to have the highest AC and strength for his level. I really think this guy could take down some brute strength monsters so I pit him against an ogre.

Mino vs. Ogre (standard SRD ogre)

Both characters are 30' apart in flat terrain.

Initiative
Mino 24
Ogre 8

Ogre is flat-footed. Mino charges with his gore, uses his minotaur ability powerful charge. Rolled a 25 and dealt 20 points of damage (1d6+5 for his gore and 1d8+5 for powerful charge). Ogre rolls an 11, failing to hit Mino's modified 15 AC (-4 AC from powerful charge). Round 2, Mino does a full attack, rolling a 23 with his large quarterstaff dealing 13 points of damage and putting the ogre at -3 and then makes a gore secondary attack at +0 for 10 points of damage (ogre -13) then spends 1 atma for a flurry of blows attacking with the quarterstaff at +3 for 13 points of damage (ogre -26)

End of Battle Report

In two rounds, a level 1 character almost killed an ogre twice over.

Pros: Ridiculous damage and attack output. AC is 19 which, even for an ogre, is over 50% to hit. High initiative.

Cons: Low hp; at minimum damage the ogre would put Mino at -2.

Mino vs. Choker

I hate chokers. Their swiftness makes them a pain even to characters 3-4 CR above them. Mino's is slow and not likely to adapt well to them but here goes. Lets see how this goes.

[Fax Celestis]

Just created Mino the Monk (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=32199), a theoretical build using 32 points.

What happens if you give Max HP instead of average to monsters?

[jmbrown]

I wanted to test out grappling so I'm going to make both attackers try to subdue each other through grapples.

Mino vs. Choker

Choker 11 initiative
Mino 9 initiative

Choker moves 10' away from Mino and attacks with a tentacle at 18 which Mino uses his initiative skill to avoid being flat-footed by beating the choker's DC of 16 (10 + attack bonus). The choker attacks again rolling a 13 which misses.

Choker has a grapple defense of 15 (10 + 3 str mod +2 size difference). Minos moves in, dodging an opportunity attack, and hits on a 16 to establish a hold on the enemy and easily beats the choker's opposed grapple check (massive bonus due to powerful build) to establish a grapple.

Round 2, the choker makes 2 attacks against Mino's grapple defense of 17 (10 + 5 strength +2 size difference) but misses both attempts with a roll of 9 and 14. Mino uses a grapple check, rolls a 15, and gores the choker for 8 points of damage. Free action to let go, Mino spends 1 atma to flurry of blows for 9 points of damage.

Round 3, the choker full attacks, hitting once on a 20 for 4 points (putting Mino at 3) and tries to grapple Mino but fails to hit his grapple defense. Choker's second attack misses. Mino attacks defensively and misses on an 11 then flurries missing on a 9.

Round 4, choker full attacks and can't hit Mino's modified 21 AC. Mino attacks defensively missing.

Round 5, Choker full attacks and misses both. Mino crits for 18 points of damage and kills the choker.

Battle Report

I don't like grapple one bit. First, I have to make a standard attack to hold an opponent and then I have to make opposed rolls to actually grapple? The problem with this setup is that a person who grapples can not deal damage from their grapple. The power of grapple in standard 3E is that you can deal your unarmed damage instantly upon making a grapple. It's actually more strategic to let your opponent grapple you because you can take a standard action on your turn to attack them.

This only nerfs creatures who don't have improved grab. The choker can attack and follow it up with a free hold followed by an immediate grapple check. My character has to waste an attack grabbing the enemy and doesn't get to damage them until next turn.

The fact that grapple is now a skill gives more power to non-humanoid monsters, however, like skills you have to practically max it out to be useful. A behir has a +25 grapple and a 22 grapple defense (24 against medium creatures). My level 8 fighter with 18 strength can have a maximum of 11 ranks in grapple skill with a bonus of +15 but a grapple defense of 14 (16 against behir). Assuming the behir doesn't want to lose his dex bonus to AC, he'll take the -20 penalty to grapple which actually gives the average character a fighting chance to break free.

My thoughts on grapple: Allow unarmed damage to be done when you succeed on an opposed grapple check after starting a hold. Add grapple to the skill sets because I didn't see one that had it.

EDIT: Grappling isn't that bad, actually. However, there needs to be a conversion system for monsters since grapple is now a skill. Monsters with improved grab will likely pump full points into their grapple so a behir would have 12 ranks, +8 strength making for a +20 grapple. Given the fighter build I said earlier with a +15 grapple, an 8th level fighter and behir are almost neck and neck. That's actually kind of impressive although size modifiers kill it.

EDIT 2: Just noticed that monsters 2 or more size categories larger immediately succeed on grapple checks to deal damage. I think you mean more than because a behir grappling a fighter would tear his head off.


What happens if you give Max HP instead of average to monsters?


I'll use that for my next battle build. Another problem is that SRD monsters are built with the elite array, not a 32 point.

[the_archduke]

Question about skill points.

If I multiclass from say, monk to paladin:

I pick 3 skill groups as a Monk at level 1, when I multiclass to Paladin, I only get two skill groups. Do I:

A) not pick new skill groups, I stick with whatever 3 I picked at first level
B) not pick new skill groups, lose one because paladin only has 2 groups
C) pick 2 new skill groups

[Eldan]

Rough version of a d20r character sheet:

Here. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Au8GIU5EHebRdHpOeDRKVlBacVppT2gtZWplQmxIX 2c&hl=en)

I'll try and polish it up a little tomorrow, and add a real spell section. No amount of squeezing got it all on one page, though. So it's not really useful to print out yet. Tell me if I missed anything important, I'll edit it in.

[Fax Celestis]

Add grapple to the skill sets because I didn't see one that had it.No, if you want to be good at grapping you need to spend the feat on it.


EDIT: Grappling isn't that bad, actually. However, there needs to be a conversion system for monsters since grapple is now a skill. Monsters with improved grab will likely pump full points into their grapple so a behir would have 12 ranks, +8 strength making for a +20 grapple. Given the fighter build I said earlier with a +15 grapple, an 8th level fighter and behir are almost neck and neck. That's actually kind of impressive although size modifiers kill it.Well, monsters will be getting their own unique skill sets. Grapple will be in many of them. Also, don't forget the "class skill with at least one rank, use ranks or 1/2 level to determine effective ranks" rule--this rule is actually the reason for the exclusion of the Grapple skill from PC skill sets.


EDIT 2: Just noticed that monsters 2 or more size categories larger immediately succeed on grapple checks to deal damage. I think you mean more than because a behir grappling a fighter would tear his head off.This is intentional.


I'll use that for my next battle build. Another problem is that SRD monsters are built with the elite array, not a 32 point.
Actually, they're built with the Common array (11 11 11 10 10 10).


C) pick 2 new skill groups

You pick two sets that are class skills for that class.

[avr]

Divine Power in a wand just became very very attractive to Full-BAB classes. Which can now get UMD as a class skill quite easily. Intentional?

[Fax Celestis]

Divine Power in a wand just became very very attractive to Full-BAB classes. Which can now get UMD as a class skill quite easily. Intentional?

It always was attractive. It's just attractive to the people who should've been using it now.

[jmbrown]

This is intentional.

Why? Seems pretty overpowered, IMO. In my example, a fighter could stand a chance to break the grapple with the behir but while he's doing so the behir can gnaw away on him.


You pick two sets that are class skills for that class.

Got some confusion on skills now. Are the skills you select in skill sets considered class skills? So whenever you choose a new class, you pick a new set of skill which then become class skills? Are initiative and grapple class skills for everyone?

Anyways, I forgot about the x4 when making Mino. All of his skills are actually maxed out.

[Fax Celestis]

Why? Seems pretty overpowered, IMO. In my example, a fighter could stand a chance to break the grapple with the behir but while he's doing so the behir can gnaw away on him.That's entirely the point.


Got some confusion on skills now. Are the skills you select in skill sets considered class skills?Yes.


So whenever you choose a new class, you pick a new set of skill which then become class skills?Yes.


Are initiative and grapple class skills for everyone?No. You can take the Skill Knowledge feat to make Initiative or Grapple a class skill--or, in the case of Initiative, be a Ranger, Warlord, or Rogue.

[the_archduke]

So in terms of the synergy bonus to a skill for having multiple skill set with the same skill... if, as a monk I take three skill sets that have awareness as a skill, I get +2 to awareness. Then I multiclass to a paladin and pick two other skill sets that have awareness, do I get +2 more to awareness for a total of +4, or does my +2 get reduced to a +1?

[Lunix Vandal]

Would it fix the problem to put prerequisites on the individual abilities, such as a BAB or skill requirement, that would force it into level 16+ play (where it's intended for use)?Yeah, probably. You could also rule that you cannot have more than six times your BAB invested in any one Style feat. (Bloodworm's Corruption requires a grand total of 91 Prowess to unlock, so this rule would limit it to stuff with 16+ BAB, as intended.)

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, probably. You could also rule that you cannot have more than six times your BAB invested in any one Style feat. (Bloodworm's Corruption requires a grand total of 91 Prowess to unlock, so this rule would limit it to stuff with 16+ BAB, as intended.)

That's rather straightforward. I'll go with that for right now.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Ah, see. what you do is just go 40d6-40, with a minimum result of 40. Most instances of +x% damage (like Empower Spell) will eventually be switching to +x damage per die anyway, so this'll be come less of an issue.Subtracting 40 from the overall damage and imposing a lower bound will yield different (less) average damage than counting each die.

Let me copy the information from the first page that showed average damage reduced for each resist level by damage die type:

{table=head]Die Type: | d4 | d6 | d8 | d10 | d12
Resist 1 | 0.75 | 0.833 | 0.875 | 0.9 | 0.916
Resist 2 | 1.25 | 1.5 | 1.625 | 1.7 | 1.75
Resist 3 | 1.5 | 2.0 | 2.25 | 2.4 | 2.5
Resist 4 | 1.5 | 2.333 | 2.75 | 3.0 | 3.166 [/table]

As you can see, if I blast a dreadnaught with resist 1 with my 40d6 fire attack, under the current rules I have two options:
(1) Count out the resisted damage by each die and end up dealing around 107 average damage after resistance, or
(2) Use the simplified subtract 40 method and end up dealing around 100 average damage after resistance.

Granted, 7's not that big of a difference, but it's worth pointing out. The differences are more pronounced when you use d4s and have larger resistance levels. Perhaps the rules should be altered to use your simplified (and slightly more powerful for the Dreadnaught) overall-minimum-damage method.

[afroakuma]

Why? Seems pretty overpowered, IMO. In my example, a fighter could stand a chance to break the grapple with the behir but while he's doing so the behir can gnaw away on him.

Isn't a behir... like... a giant man-eating monster?

Isn't your fighter... not?

Sort of makes sense, no?

[Zovc]

We've yet to see your wizards yet, Fax, but I remember seeing you saying something against 10/10 spellcasting progression prestige classes.

If you ask me, the only reason I think 10/10 is broken is because Wizards and Sorcerers don't get much of anything for staying in their respective classes.

If we take a look at your Sorcerer (which I really, really like), I'd probably rule that spellcasting progression improves spellweaving and seeds known as if you gained a level as a Sorcerer (that seems to be the most seamless, "true-to-the-original" method). Using current prestige classes may or may not (probably "not") benefit your Sorcerer in any way, but the point is that I'm essentially electing different class features. 10/10 prestige classes, to me, should essentially function like alternate class features that kick in "later."

This may or may not address how you feel about prestige classes, I just remember a comment 'against' 10/10 progressions.

What about 'accelerated spellcasting' classes (10 level classes that get 9th level spells)? I feel like the Divine Champion (if that's the right class) that gets access to one domain's spell was almost made for the new domain system.

What about prestige classes in general, how do you feel about them?

[Eldan]

Slightly improved version of the sheet: It's now one page wide. Not a masterwork, but it works. Calculates some of the data necessary.
Here. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Au8GIU5EHebRdDZCYXpSNTlQVjRTT2JiLVB0bERzM 3c&hl=en)

[Fax Celestis]

Slightly improved version of the sheet: It's now one page wide. Not a masterwork, but it works. Calculates some of the data necessary.
Here. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Au8GIU5EHebRdDZCYXpSNTlQVjRTT2JiLVB0bERzM 3c&hl=en)

Not public.

[Fax Celestis]

We've yet to see your wizards yet, Fax, but I remember seeing you saying something against 10/10 spellcasting progression prestige classes.I feel that entering a prestige class should cost something--whether that be prerequisites or in lost or delayed features. I do also however feel that PrCs should be worth that loss in the right circumstances or with the right concept in mind.


What about 'accelerated spellcasting' classes (10 level classes that get 9th level spells)? I feel like the Divine Champion (if that's the right class) that gets access to one domain's spell was almost made for the new domain system.Only off a very very short list of spells accessible. The Divine Champion example is one that probably is viable. Something like the Ur-Priest is not.


What about prestige classes in general, how do you feel about them?PrCs are actually my favorite part of the game.

[Zovc]

I feel that entering a prestige class should cost something--whether that be prerequisites or in lost or delayed features. I do also however feel that PrCs should be worth that loss in the right circumstances or with the right concept in mind.

I see where you're coming from. As I said, I think the problem with 10/10 classes was simply not having casters that had class features. Look at Wizards, Clerics, and Sorcerors--progressing them fully with another class is awesome, you get features on top of their spellcasting! It's harder to progress druid casting, and progress wildshape, and progress your animal companion, etc, etc. (I hear that's what Planar Shepherd does, but it also seems to be one of those "why not options," in other words, "strictly better.") Then look at the Beguiler (which I'm thinking your wizards will resemble)--He's got cool, beneficial class features that you will miss out on if you take a prestige class.

I'm not saying that there should not be 7/10 or 5/10, or whatever casting progressions, just that you can have 10/10 progressions be 'balanced' by just giving classes things to miss out on.


Only off a very very short list of spells accessible. The Divine Champion example is one that probably is viable. Something like the Ur-Priest is not.

PrCs are actually my favorite part of the game.

(Yes, Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord are silly, and can go.)

I was just thinking that Divine Champion worked better with your domains. I mean, I find the DC to be silly, getting 1-9th level spells... knowing only one at each level is... boring, if you ask me. Your domains are just so much more saucy than the previous ones, and I liked them.

Also, you could, instead of giving arbitrary resistances to the DC, let "Xth level" domain powers be the leveled features of the class. Level 1 nets you Level 1 (from the domain) spells and the domain power, Level 4, 7, and 10 give you their respective class powers. Level 2-9 give you leveled spells (you know "0" 9th level spells at 9, and 1/2 at 10).

Maybe I'm just infatuated with the divine champion as of late, and being able to combine them with better domains is just appealing.

Something you might want to do, if you have prestige classes that improve spellcasting and prestige classes that provide spellcasting would be to include extended spellcasting lists.

For example, Divine Champion is a 10-level class, but it could have 15 (arbitrary number) levels of casting progression.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

[TO]
Batman 2.0

Level 1 version:
Phoe-Kun Sorcerer
Stats: Str: 8, Con: 10, Dex: 14, Int: 8, Wis: 14, Cha: 20
Feats:

Seeds: Acid

Tactics: Use Natural Talent to Fly for one minute while he rains death and destruction down on his foes. Since he has a CHA of 20, he gets to do 2d6 Ref/Half. Plus, if I am reading correctly, his Spellseed Familiar also gets to blast for 2d6 as well.

Level 6 version:
Stats: Str: 8, Con: 10, Dex: 14, Int: 8, Wis: 15, Cha: 20
Feats: Residual Spellcasting (2nd), (3rd), Bonus Secret (4th), Perceptive Spellcasting (6th bonus), Bonus Secret (4th)

Seeds: Acid, Entangling, Grease, Drain
Secrets: Imbued, Slowing, Nauseating

Tactics:

Evard's Nauseating Tentacles: Entangling + Acid + Nauseating = Reflex Save or be Entangled, Reflex Save or Acid, and Fort save or Nauseated.

Sleet Storm Improved: Grease + Imbued +Cold + Slowing + Acid + Nauseated. Sure, damage is crap, but that isn't the point. Anyone entering has to make a Reflex save or make a pathetically easy Acrobatics check to avoid falling. Fine, but thanks to Imbued, anyone entering *ALSO* has to make a Will or be Slowed, and a Fort or be Nauseated. Odds are, they're gonna fail at least one of them.

11th level version:
Seeds: Acid, Entangling, Grease, Drain, Sphere, Time (bonus feat)
Secrets: Imbued, Slowing, Nauseating, Speeding, Enervating, Discriminating (bonus feat)

Tactics:

Sit Down, Shut Up, Stay There: Grease (Imbued) + Ice (Slowed) + Acid (Nauseated) + Drain (Enervating). Basically, locks you down and does 1 negative level per round until you die.

Group Buff: Time (Speeding) + Sphere. Drop it at your feet. Party gets Hasted.

Lockdown Ball: Acid (Nauseating) + Cold (Slowing) + Sphere (Discriminating). Opponents in area effect make Fort or Nauseated and Will or slowed. Damage is incidental

Level 16 version:

Seeds: Acid, Entangling, Grease, Drain, Sphere, Time, Teleport, Word, Cone, Line (bonus feat)
Secrets: Imbued, Slowing, Nauseating, Speeding, Enervating, Discriminating, Focused, Disintegrating, Allied

Additional Tactics:

Group Teleport: Sphere + Teleport + Allied. Add in Discriminating if you want to teleport your buddies when they are mixed into a group of enemies

Area of disintegration: Grease (Imbued) + Drain (Disintegrating) + Entangling + Cold (Slowing) + Acid (Nauseating). When you reach 0 hit points, you are disintegrated, however it does not state that that last bit of damage has to be from the Drain effect, and the Imbue ability specifies that it is constant in the area effect.

Let Go: Word (Focused). If you grab him, you die.

In general, it isn't doing a lot of damage, but it is applying an elemental seed to be able to apply the negative status effect that the Seed Secret applies, and spending most of my bonus feats on Seed Secrets and Extra Seeds.

Because a Seed Secret only costs 1 SP, you can stack them fairly easily. So 3 points for Acid + 1 for Nauseating + 3 for Cold + 1 for Slowing + 5 for Sphere + 1 for Discriminating = 14 points. That can *EASILY* be done by a level 10 Sorcerer with a decent Cha score. This does the following:

1d6 Acid + 1d6 Cold damage. Big deal
Fort save or Nauseated
Will save or Slowed
Can drop in mass combat and not present a Friendly Fire danger.

[Fax Celestis]

[TO]
Batman 2.0

Because a Seed Secret only costs 1 SP, you can stack them fairly easily. So 3 points for Acid + 1 for Nauseating + 3 for Cold + 1 for Slowing + 5 for Sphere + 1 for Discriminating = 14 points. That can *EASILY* be done by a level 10 Sorcerer with a decent Cha score. This does the following:

Does using a progressively more expensive cost for secrets (1, +1 per secret already applied to this spell) abate this somewhat?

[Fax Celestis]

Races that have +2/-2 stat adjustments no longer provide stat penalties, just bonuses. I have heard a compelling argument towards this end and I find myself wanting to agree.

Races that have +2/+2/-2/-2 stat adjusts instead have +2/+2/-2: essentially, pick one penalty and drop it.

[the_archduke]

[PO]

Use the Force!

Monk 2/Paladin 2/Bladeweaver 16

With Perceptive Spellweaving and, he gets wis to spellweaving along with wis to AC from Monk. Paladin 2 gives him cha to saves and cha to attack with Mantle of Honor. A race with a wis or cha bonus can start with 16s in both without gimping the other stats. Add on 5 to wis and cha from leveling, a +6 item for wis and cha, and +5 tomes to each, by level 20 you can have a 32 in each stat.

32 wis and 32 cha from a level 16 bladeweaver gives you 30 spellweaving points.

Seed Focus: Force and Seed Specialization Force turns that into 1d4+29 force damage added to each attack

Residual Spellweaving allows you to carry over three points from the previous round and then self buff the defensive Force application... +33 AC as an armor bonus and DR 33/- for 33 hours. Additionally, he gets +11 AC from wisdom. His AC at level 20 looks to be around the mid 60s.

His saves are impressive, Divine Grace, evasion, and lightning reflexes put them at Fort 31, Ref 33, Will 35

Access to the Fly Seed, also focused and specialized with residual spellweaving nets him a fly speed of 160' Perfect for 1 minute and another casting of it will extend the duration by 15 minutes. In one minute of prep time he could give a party of five fly speed 140' perfect for 15 minutes. Over long distances, provided he stays occasionally within touch range, he could keep this up indefinitely.

I crunched the numbers on investing into weapon finesse, weapon focus: unarmed strike, and improved unarmed strike, and combining those with Mantle of Honor and we are talking +27 to hit and a BAB of 19. He can also Flurry of Blows 15 times a day.

Is this the kind of power we expect from a level 20 melee character? If it is... awesome :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Does using a progressively more expensive cost for secrets (1, +1 per secret already applied to this spell) abate this somewhat?

Somewhat, but that's just an additive which can be overcome. If I'm using 3 secrets, that would be an additional three MP's. But I can get stat boosters and CL modifiers to offset this fairly easily. If I roll well, I can also tack in my Wis mod.

However, the bigger thing which I am taking advantage of is that all saving throws are absolutely identical, regardless of how many effects I can throw at you. Force someone to make six or eight saving throws per spell, and odds are he's gonna end up failing one.

I do this by applying multiple seeds which have different saving throws that I've applied Secrets to so that they also have status effects. It is the stacking of status effects which makes this so hellishly effective. Being Prone, Paralyzed, Slowed, Nauseated, and if I drop to 0, I'm dust is fairly crippling. Sure, the base damage is low... only a couple d6's, but that is purely incidental.

If you want to completely nerf this exploitation, make the DC of the Secret be 10 + Casting Stat + number of d6's the seed is doing. That way, I *HAVE* to boost out my damage, because otherwise nothing will fail their save. However, that's a bit severe, as the damage is generally a 3:1 ratio, and saves go on a 2:1 ratio, which means the DC's are going to be lower, on par, than they should be. Perhaps this would be to offset the fact that it is Status + Damage rather than straight Status (like the Time or Hex seed).

Another way to mitigate this is to declare that if you made your saving throw against the base spell, you don't get the Seed Secret affect at all, effectively making the Secret status effects have two different saving throws.

[Fax Celestis]

However, the bigger thing which I am taking advantage of is that all saving throws are absolutely identical, regardless of how many effects I can throw at you. Force someone to make six or eight saving throws per spell, and odds are he's gonna end up failing one.

There's the breakdown. Each spell has a maximum of three saves (one for each stat). Failing a save inflicts all of the effects tied to that save upon you.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's the breakdown. Each spell has a maximum of three saves (one for each stat). Failing a save inflicts all of the effects tied to that save upon you.

Still... forcing someone to make all three saves every round is going to eventually cause Bad Things (tm) to happen, as any of the three saving throws inflict a Save or Loose effect. Since very few things (other than Outsiders) have all three superior saves, odds are they're gonna fail at least one pretty quickly.

Action Economy at it's finest, three rounds worth of debuffing in one tasty package.

[Fax Celestis]

Have a recommendation to prevent such batmannery? Something like, restricting effects to one save type per blast? That seems simple, but is way too restrictive for the intention behind spellweaving.

[Zovc]

Have a recommendation to prevent such batmannery? Something like, restricting effects to one save type per blast? That seems simple, but is way too restrictive for the intention behind spellweaving.

Perhaps let the spellweaver choose which save to force, based on the ones he can threaten?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Have a recommendation to prevent such batmannery? Something like, restricting effects to one save type per blast? That seems simple, but is way too restrictive for the intention behind spellweaving.

Particularly when you have spells like Cold which has a Fort save, and can have Slow which is a Will save attached to it. There's two saves, on the same spell, without using any other seeds.

How about: If you make your saving throw on the base seed, then any additional effects a Seed Secret which is applied to that Seed does not affect you.

This, effectively, gives you two chances to avoid a given effect. Thus, if I made my Fort save vs Cold damage, then the Slow effect is never applied to me, and I don't have to make a Will save vs Slow.

Or, if you prefer:

Only one secret can be applied per spell, and possibility of class feature or extra feat which can increase this, possibly an Investing feat. So, if you want to blow *all* your feats, you *can* do that. But it will be far more feat intensive, thus making it inaccessible to lower or even mid-level players.

[Fax Celestis]

Particularly when you have spells like Cold which has a Fort save, and can have Slow which is a Will save attached to it. There's two saves, on the same spell, without using any other seeds.Sounds effective, but also like a slowdown at the table.


Only one secret can be applied per spell, and possibility of class feature or extra feat which can increase this, possibly an Investing feat. So, if you want to blow *all* your feats, you *can* do that. But it will be far more feat intensive, thus making it inaccessible to lower or even mid-level players.

That sounds more feasible, albeit limiting.

[Human Paragon 3]

Have a recommendation to prevent such batmannery? Something like, restricting effects to one save type per blast? That seems simple, but is way too restrictive for the intention behind spellweaving.

I had almost the same exact problem with the class back in the thread where you introduced it. I'll go see what I suggested to get around it and post it back here.

Ah, here we are, along with a few other complaints:



I may be the only one seeing a problem with this, but I think the system may not work as well as you're hoping for. It is cool and everything, and I agree that it's good for the sorcerer to be a highly modular caster, but the system presents a number of headaches as well.

From the player side, you have to build your spell, essentially from scratch, every single round. Psionics is a little like this, but the basic effects aren't anywhere near as modular. This sounds like a good thing, but all the extra freedom is going to take a lot of extra time. Witness as players take extra long turns, especially at high levels, carefully crafting each and every spell they cast. This, of course, is an experienced and intelligent player, the kind you can trust to do this sort of number crunching and who revels the chance to build his own spells. Now picture the other kind of player, the one who isn't very clear on all the rules, maybe new or just thick. The DM, or other players, now have to look over his shoulder every round to make sure he's building his spells correctly, reminding him of his total and what he has to spend, making sure he has accounted for the right number of d6s etc. Yes, a player could do this during other people's turns, but when you get down to brass tacks, it is increasing turn time and slowing down combat- not something you want, especially in a "fixed" system.

From a DM's perspective this system could also get frustrating fast. First, as mentioned above, it'll be very difficult to make sure your players are crafting and resolving their spells correctly. You probably won't have the time and energy to double check everything, and if you do, combat lags. But combat will lag anyway, when the sorcerer catches 6 enemies in a burst and each of them has to roll 3 saving throws for different elemental dice damage and then has to re-roll on the following round becuase it's lingering or whatever else. Then the sorcerer casts the same spell again, maybe with the dice split up differently. It's been two rounds and you've now rolled over about 70 saving throws. I appreciate what you're doing here, but it doesn't seem optimal. You have some kinks to iron out, IMO.


EDIT: OK, I'm back again. I realized I typed that huge wall of complaints without offering any actual advice on how to fix it.

For problem number one, long crafting times in combat, you could make it so the sorcerer creates spells on a per-encounter basis, and once he crafts a spell using spellweaving, that spell is a permanant spell known for that encounter, then have his "seeds known" double for his "max crafted spells/encounter" score. This way, they could write down crafted spells as they go and come back to them. You could also reset spells daily instead of per encounter, so a decision you make early in the day lingers throughout.


These are just ideas to show you that the problems are addressable. I fully expect you to come up with better solutions than these, but as one designer to another, I do urge you to consider these little design hiccups in the d20r sorcerer.



The most relevant bits:



Problem:

...the sorcerer catches 6 enemies in a burst and each of them has to roll 3 saving throws for different elemental dice damage and then has to re-roll on the following round because it's lingering or whatever else. Then the sorcerer casts the same spell again, maybe with the dice split up differently. It's been two rounds and you've now rolled over about 70 saving throws.

(Plus, as above poster indicated, spamming 3-6 save-or-lose saves on an enemy every round will probably ensure that he fails at least one.)

Suggested Solution:

...say that each spell has one and only one save which is based on the spell's primary seed. The primary seed is the seed that has the most SP invested into it at casting time. On a tie, the sorcerer chooses primary seed.

I don't think this is limiting. You can still build your spell any way you want, stack on as many different effects as you want, shape it any way you want, target it any way you want, etc. You can even choose the save you target. You just can't make spells that trigger a ton of saves. Why not? Because that would be abusive and annoying.

[afroakuma]

Alternately, tie it to spell power. A minimum of 1 investment in the base seed effect + 1 per secret will increase costs. With Acid, for example, that's 7 MP for one secret, 11 MP for 2, 15 MP for 3 etc.

This also means that getting really exploitative will escalate costs even more dramatically. To pull off a Nauseating + Slowing combo, you need 6 MP (Two buys of Acid) plus 1 MP (Nauseating Secret) plus 6 MP (Two buys of Ice) plus 1 MP (Slowing Secret) for a total of 14 MP. Sure, it's an additional 1d4 acid and 1d6 cold, but you trade away Sphere + Discriminating.

This is not the actual solution, obviously, but something can be built from it. It's clear that some element of "spell power" needs to come into play, though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Alternately, tie it to spell power. A minimum of 1 investment in the base seed effect + 1 per secret will increase costs. With Acid, for example, that's 7 MP for one secret, 11 MP for 2, 15 MP for 3 etc.

This also means that getting really exploitative will escalate costs even more dramatically. To pull off a Nauseating + Slowing combo, you need 6 MP (Two buys of Acid) plus 1 MP (Nauseating Secret) plus 6 MP (Two buys of Ice) plus 1 MP (Slowing Secret) for a total of 14 MP. Sure, it's an additional 1d4 acid and 1d6 cold, but you trade away Sphere + Discriminating.

This is not the actual solution, obviously, but something can be built from it. It's clear that some element of "spell power" needs to come into play, though.

I don't comprehend what you are trying to say. You mean that you have to have at least two levels before being able to apply a secret? That would slow things down, yes, but not eliminate them. With +CL items, +Stat items, a feat to add a second stat you can boost up, you can have a stupid amount of SP available to you. Flat SP costs are not going to be sufficient to eliminate this.

Also, how can you then apply Discriminating to Sphere is you cannot put in additional levels into Sphere, as all it does is change the area effect?

[Zovc]

Perhaps let the spellweaver choose which save to force, based on the ones he can threaten?

I don't see anything wrong with my solution, is it too simple?

...or am I missing something?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't see anything wrong with my solution, is it too simple?

...or am I missing something?

Well, the problem is that a Sorcerer would simply target the opponent's weakest likely save, and hit the opponent with *everything* on one hit.

I know I'm going after a Barbarian Horde? Fine, target Will save. Going after a caster? Fort save it is. Shutting down opponent tanks? Reflex Save, I choose YOU!

It's like playing Paper, Scissors, Rock... only forcing them to show their hand first.

[afroakuma]

This is not the actual solution, obviously

You ignored that, Shneekey.

My point is that the number of secrets one can apply needs to be tied to another investment, for otherwise you get spells like you've been crafting, which are technically weak but have sick amounts of real power.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You ignored that, Shneekey.

My point is that the number of secrets one can apply needs to be tied to another investment, for otherwise you get spells like you've been crafting, which are technically weak but have sick amounts of real power.

On that, we can agree on.

There are several possible solutions:

1) DC of the save of the Spell Secret is equal to the number of dice put into the effect plus relevant stat mod plus 10.

This has the benefit that the saves for my 'technically weak but sick amounts of power' spells will be so pathetic that a level 1 commoner will be able to have a decent chance at resisting it.

However, since most elements are at a 3:1 ratio (3 points per die), and saves are designed on a 2:1 ratio (1/2 CL), so that would leave the Secret effects with a lower DC than they should, unless you want to posit that it *should* be weaker since it is 'in addition to' rather than 'instead of' a spell.

2) Using a secret increases the multiplier per secret attached to the spell after the first (so my effect, which has four Secrets in it, has a prohibitively expensive cost multipler of *4). Thus you can use 1 Secret for free, but every additional increases the multiplier. This multiplier is applied to the total cost of the SP of the spell after all other modifiers have been applied.

Thus:

Let's take my Acid + Nauseating + Cold + Slowing + Sphere + Discriminating. It's got 3 Secrets in there, for a *3 mod. 3 + 1 + 3 + 1 + 5 + 1 = 14, x3 = a total of 42 points. Very much prohibitively expensive. Without Discriminating, however, it drops down to 26, which should just about be possible to do at higher levels.

3) Using multiple Secrets requires a Spellcraft check (using the skill check modifier limitations on Cartomancy to avoid people making an insane check with minimal difficulty) with scaling DC depending on how many effects you are trying to pile in

4) Limit how many Secrets can be piled on, possibly mitigated by Feat investment

5) Declare that a spell may only have *ONE* status effect applied at a time. However, this causes a problem with the Hex seed's Secret.

[Fax Celestis]

4) Limit how many Secrets can be piled on, possibly mitigated by Feat investment

This is looking more and more like a good option. I could replace the Arcane Shielding ability with it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This is looking more and more like a good option. I could replace the Arcane Shielding ability with it.

Either that or increase the price of adding on Secrets. And not just a base price, either, since the results are on a geometric scale in terms of power output.

EDIT: I only need 3 spell secrets to do this combo, and one of them is only necessary if my allies are mixed in with the area effect. I would be able to do it anyways if you used the Arcane Shielding progression.

[Zeta Kai]

I wish that Fax was the guy in charge of Pathfinder. Then maybe it would be worth buying. :smallsigh:

Great job so far, Fax. More power to you, bro.

[term1nally s1ck]

'scribin..

This seems pretty epic, imo. I look forward to goin through the classes for breakable stuff....though I so want to run a Marshal with the leadership tree-thingy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

'scribin..

This seems pretty epic, imo. I look forward to goin through the classes for breakable stuff....though I so want to run a Marshal with the leadership tree-thingy.

I think you mean Warlord, right? The d20r system doesn't use any classes other than those in the OP

[Zemro]

Casual

So, I enjoy my halfling rogues, I particularly enjoy halfling rogues who attack at range. So, here's what I've been playing with so far.

As per Fax's earlier comments, stats are rolled with 5d4 (I'm only a hair above 32pts anyway) and I dropped the stat penalty.

First Level
Halfling Rogue
Stats: Str 10, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 14
Feats: Point Blank Shot (3 Prowess)
Skill Sets: Athlete, Gypsy, Thief, Cat-Burglar
Skills: Acrobatics +11, Stealth +13
Sneak Attack: 1d6
Powers: Athleticism

Normal Shortbow: +5 Atk for 1d4 Damage (1d6 SA)
With Point Blank Shot: +6 Atk for 1d4+1 Damage

First level is pretty cool, definitely better off then I would be under normal D&D. Nothing much to say, other then that I enjoyed fiddling around with skill sets. I do keep forgetting about powers though, some extra speed and potential climb speed seems rather helpful to me.

Fifth Level
Halfling Rogue
Stats: Str 10, Dex 21, Con 13, Int 17, Wis 12, Cha 14
Feats: Point Blank Shot (6 Prowess)

Rapid Shot (5 Prowess)

Brutal Precision (2 Prowess)
Skill Sets: Athlete, Gypsy, Thief, Cat-Burglar
Skills: Acrobatics +17, Stealth +17
Sneak Attack: 3d6
Powers: Athleticism, Point of Focus, Out of Sight Out of Mind

+1 Shortbow: +11 Atk for 1d4 Damage (3d6 SA)
With Point Blank Shot: +13 Atk for 1d4+2 Damage (3d6 SA)
With PBS and Rapid Shot: +12/+12 Atk for 2d4+4 Total Damage (6d6 SA)

First thing I ran into level up was the prowess I lost from the Rogue's single feat and low attack bonus. Human became rather tempting, the extra feat would probably net a couple extra prowess points. But, overall still doing well. Canny Finesse is cool, but aside from use for a melee weapon back-up, I don't get much mileage out of it. +1 Shortbow and +2 Dex Gloves are a nice bonus.

Brutal Precision is an investment for the future, because I can't use it with my shortbow until I can get 5 prowess invested. I think my attack bonus is doing well, and some damage against the sneak attack immune.

As for the powers I keep forgetting about, Point of Focus was mainly chosen as a safety net, while Out of Sight, Out of Mind was an easy choice. Even if only once per day, being become invisible is great for both getting out of the Rogue killing range and some extra sneak attack.

Tenth Level
Halfling Rogue
Stats: Str 10, Dex 24, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 14
Feats: Point Blank Shot (8 Prowess)

Rapid Shot (10 Prowess)

Brutal Precision (10 Prowess)

Dodge (0 Prowess)

Manyshot (5 Prowess)
Skill Sets: Athlete, Gypsy, Thief, Cat-Burglar
Skills: Acrobatics +22, Stealth +22
Sneak Attack: 5d6
Powers: Athleticism, Point of Focus, Out of Sight Out of Mind, Agility, Incredible Hearing

+2 Shortbow: +19/+14 Atk for 2d4 total Damage (10d6 SA)
With Point Blank Shot: +22/+17 Atk for 2d4+6 Total Damage (10d6 SA)
With PBS and Rapid Shot: +22/+22/+17 Atk for 3d4+9 Total Damage (15d6 SA)

Alternately: +20/+20/+20/+15 for 4d4+12 Total Damage (20d6 SA)
With PBS and Manyshot: +18/+13 for 2d4+6 Total Damage (5d6 SA)

I think tenth level is really sweet, Rapid Shot has really kicked kicked in for some sweet sneak attack potential (And twice a day invisibility to help insure some of that) and I don't think damage is that shabby. Wealth was mainly spent on the +2 Shortbow, +4 Dex Gloves and Lesser Bracers of Archery.

Rapid Shot accounted for all of the -4 penalty for firing into melee, so I stopped putting prowess into it after 8. Brutal Precision also capped out at 10, making it both usable and boosting the ratio to 2:1. It's not really accounted for in the above figures though, as it's rather variable. It currently stands at a -7 for +14 maximum though. Between the various feats, things are still pretty cool when I can't sneak attack.

Powers are still cool, Agility seems pretty cool and a logical extension of Athleticism. Depending on what's going on with tumble checks, the +Int Mod might be a bit redundant though. I really liked Incredible Hearing, though, blindsense sounds like a pretty nice option for finding targets and the like.

That's all I've got for now, the 15th and 20th levels have stats done, but I have yet to touch the equipment yet for them. I'm really enjoying building with the d20r system though, between Prowess and Rogue Powers there's some good choices to think about. The bonus feat for every four rogue levels has also helped with things panning out, I'd have lost a lot more prowess by being unable to use them without it. I haven't listed all the skills up there, but thanks to the Int score I grabbed, I've been keeping up with them rather well. The lack of ranged class features is a little disappointing, between Canny Finese, Finese Expert, and the other opportunity attack related feat and abilities I feel there's a lot more potential for damage in melee. he ranged tree is going to flesh out rather well regardless, but a thing or two for the bows or throwers would be cool.

I've run into a couple conversion things though, the first being that since the HISB Rogue isn't straight up d20r there was some conversions to do with skills. The other was the 5-rank synergy bonuses, tumble gave a bonus to balance, for example. I've ignored synergy bonuses like in the previous example though, but it might be something that'd be nice for a note.

Otherwise, I'm really liking the system and classes. I'm not exploiting any flaws (at least, I don't think I am) and while I think the sneak attack damage seems rather ludicrous, I don't often play damage classes so I don't really know. So I'll defer to those more familiar with such classes at such level for the verdict there, as some perspective would be nice.

[term1nally s1ck]

Yeah, I meant Warlord....having multiple teammates to boost seems fun :P

[avr]

Something that occurs to me; if you have a sorcerer/bladeweaver, how does it work - do they have separate pools of SP, can they use seeds/secrets from different classes together etc?

[Belobog]

Question: what constitutes an [Aura] effect? Is it just the Warlord class feature, or are similar effects, like the 'aura' a Paladin would gain from Mantle of Humility, also counted as [Aura]s? I'm asking with respect to the Leader's Obligation ability Bolstered Auras.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Otherwise, I'm really liking the system and classes. I'm not exploiting any flaws (at least, I don't think I am) and while I think the sneak attack damage seems rather ludicrous, I don't often play damage classes so I don't really know. So I'll defer to those more familiar with such classes at such level for the verdict there, as some perspective would be nice.

The point of testing a game is to try and break it, in my opinion. That's why I pointed out the Batman Wizard 2.0 flaw with the Sorcerer... if we don't fix it *now*, it's not going to get fixed

[term1nally s1ck]

I was building a Warlord, and was worried about all those feats, since I intended to use the 'Leader's obligation' Style feat to make my allies awesome...and I found I had a lot of feats (9 bonus feats, 7 leveling feats, 5 class leveling feats...21 total) with not much prowess to use on them..but then I have Combat Mastery.

+6 on ANY fixed bonus.

If I almost never invest in feats that aren't Leader's Obligation:

Dodge gives a +7 to AC vs a fixed enemy.
The save booster feats are suddenly good, giving a +8 on each save.
Imp X are amazing....I get a +9 on the opposed checks from the feat, with a +7 on the extra attack roll if I invest 4.
Improved Initiative: +9 initiative
Improved Feint gives I think a +6 to the bluff check if you invest 4 (the +2 is a morale bonus, so will not stack)
Imp Unarmed Strike lets you invest 7 for a +7 to atk/damage rolls.
Point Blank Shot gives you a +7 to atk/damage rolls
Wep Focus/Specialisation give +7 to attack rolls, and +8 to damage rolls.

All of this can be used, plus a lot of other tricks with TWF, etc, because you have a load of feats available.

Just as a basic Example, I can easily have an archer at LV 20 with PBS, Wep Focus+Spec(Longbow), Brutal Precision(10 invested) and Pin Opponent (3 Invested) with 20+ in STR, DEX, who will have a +39 to hit without any magic items at all, who can then drop say 10 of the + attack to give a DC 73 to escape a Pin, if I roll a 1 on the second attack roll. Can most things even make that??? This is, since there is near no optimisation involved, a Casual Player Warlord, who's put 5 of his 21 feats, and 13 prowess towards archery....not focusing on it at all, and only using a single attack to pin...the other 3 attacks will all hit at + 24/19/14, which should get a coupla hits since the opp has taken a -4 to dex, (hence -2 to AC), and do d8 + 40 with each hit, again with no magic items.

I'm not sure if this is fair, given that it is at heart a casual build. I'll have a look and see exactly how huge I can make that Pin DC with some practical optimisation, but it seems unfair as what is effectively a casual play character, who can make enemies stop for literally EVER.

Oh, and I hope I'm reading this right, but Combat Mastery does NOT apply to style feats, does it?

[Fax Celestis]

Something that occurs to me; if you have a sorcerer/bladeweaver, how does it work - do they have separate pools of SP, can they use seeds/secrets from different classes together etc?

Each class has their own Spellweaving ability. the seeds cross-pollinate (you just know the seed), but your levels don't stack as they're from different sources.


Question: what constitutes an [Aura] effect? Is it just the Warlord class feature, or are similar effects, like the 'aura' a Paladin would gain from Mantle of Humility, also counted as [Aura]s? I'm asking with respect to the Leader's Obligation ability Bolstered Auras.

Anything with the [Aura] descriptor. I have to go back through some of the older classes and add that to them--namely, the paladin, but also some of the other classes too.


Combat Mastery stuff

Yeah, Combat Mastery needs to get changed to a fixed bonus. Can I just have it, say, be +2 to feats that provide fixed, numeric bonuses and have it be okay?

[term1nally s1ck]

Yeah, that would be best....I was gonna have a Warlord Archer with a pile of rogues with Mentor as his followers, and the disarm/pin/trip/bullrush tricks to utterly dominate the battlefield, and then his Leader's obligation tree making the rogues even more effective than they would be normally. Reducing the bonuses to a +2 would still be an incredibly powerful ability, but less so than the +6 as it was O_o.

You also need to make sure that the various follower tricks don't stack...the followers of a warlord taking leadership or mentor is ott, and a rogue with leadership can have 2 cohorts effectively....and his mentee can take leadership, too. This is wayyyy too good. Atm, at 20, assuming the warlord has +8 cha, and all your rogues take leadership and mentor at 6 and 8, we get 1 LV 18 Rogue (+5 cha, not optimal, but not hard to do), 5 LV 16 Rogues (+4 Cha, still not hard to do), 1 mentor-locked LV 16 Rogue (+4 cha again), 11 LV 14 rogues (5 mentor-locked, +3 cha), 17 LV 12 rogues (6 mentor-locked, +2 Cha), 28 LV 10 Rogues, 45 LV 8 rogues, 83 LV 6 Chars, 83 More LV 4 chars...Plus the various extras from leadership anyway, which total to:

3 LV 6 followers, 10 LV 5 followers, 30 LV 4 followers, 58 LV 3 followers, 119 LV 2 followers, 1624 LV 1 followers.

This is a small town, let alone a village...O_O

IMO Your followers should not be able to have followers, as a general rule.

EDIT: Also, the existence of ranged disarm/sunder makes a lot of casters very very weak. Sundering/Disarming the caster's spellbook/holy symbol/spell material pouch basically wins the fight against a caster, or at the very least makes them go to pick it up before they can continue to fight, which takes most of their round to do. This is by no means a bad thing, since casters are in general OP by comparison, and anything to hurt them is great imo.

[Fax Celestis]

Take leadership out of the equation. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it yet. Possibly make it noncombatants-only. You take leadership if you want to be the city mayor or something.

[Cute_Riolu]

Take leadership out of the equation. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it yet. Possibly make it noncombatants-only. You take leadership if you want to be the city mayor or something.

Alternately, do you really need a feat for that? You wanna be a mayor? Talk to your DM.

[term1nally s1ck]

Without leadership, I can still have 1 LV 18 Rogue, 5 LV 16 Rogues, and 4 LV 14 Rogues. That's a LOT when you have the auras of various kinds to use.

EDIT: Do the bonuses from Improved Bull Rush apply to Ranged Bull Rush?

EDIT 2: Does Combat mastery apply to Style Feats?

EDIT IT'S OVER 9000

I just finished my L20 Warlord. No Allies as of yet, which is big, cos he's maxed out Leader's Obligation.

These are all numbers without any auras active.

Initiative: +41
Saves: +23/+28/+23 (pretty solid IMO, but rely on your DM letting you re-slot that cloak of charisma, making it twice the price..

AC: 39, or 42 vs the Dodge target.
Miss Chances: 50% from Blink. I'd like to get a Displacement cloak as well, but I prefer the resistance. If your DM will let you re-slot, get it.

I can Full-attack for +37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+27/+22, or Manyshot for +32 for 4 arrows. Each attack hits for d10+3d6+6, and I can BP for twice the penalty to damage. Seeking, so no miss chance.

I can do all of the ranged trip, pin, disarm etc tricks, and provided the Improved X applies to Ranged X, I get a bonus of +14 on the Str roll for Bull-Rush or Trip (Add the Mighty Aura to boost this one to huge levels), a +47 to the attack made to disarm, or a +48 for the DC roll for Pin.

All of these numbers add the extra damage you would have gotten from BP, so at least another +6 to each.

This class has somewhat epic battlefield control. It WILL go first, you are flat-footed, and it will full-attack all enemies it can see (250' range, too) and Pin them if possible (can bull-rush them back into a wall, then pin them, too), Disarm the Wizard's spell component pouch, Disarm anything with a huge weapon, and Trip anything else.

Then you have 5 troops to boost with the auras and Leader's Obligation stuff, who will go and hit things for you. I personally would have I think a L18 rogue, with mentor, 2 L16 rogues (no mentor), and 3 L16 Dreadnoughts, who would probably go with tripping builds, as if you lacked battlefield control.

The Dreads can take Berserk Sandworm, looking strongly at Shape to Sandstorm, Blindside, and generally being a frikking giant worm (and apparently, remarkable good with hot readheaded rogues thanks to this....for lols, the remaining rogues are redheaded females caled Haley, Holly, and Haley's mom (she's got it goin on :smallwink:)

The Rogues can take Brave Fencer, imo, looking at feint, Lunge, Passata Soto, and Agile Riposte, all excellent Rogue abilities.

This seems like a very very powerful L20 character, and could quite simply annihilate nearly any other character even given only a few lucky rolls. One of the 4 control tiricks going off once is quite likely to make the combat very one-sided...and it WILL go first, so is more than likely to do that while you're still flat-footed.

(and I'm amused by the concept of Manyshot letting you simultaneously Pin, trip, disarm, and bull-rush a single opponent)

There's only one downside to this. Enjoy the book-keeping....

[Pelfaid]

First off I have that this is very awesome, especially the style feats, gonna work on breaking those later :smallsmile:
Secondly, I would so be up to playing in an IRC or any other format d20r game.

Now then on to my concern. Looking over the Fencer, why I love the concept of maneuvers, the fact that there are they can't be replaced means that even though you know 13 at 19th only some will be used. This is offset some at 20th level, but in general you will be able to pick the absolute best and so most of your maneuvers known won't be used. Would love to either be able to swap out some of the lower level ones or change how they are acquired so that there is still an incentive to use some of the early ones.
Also, one of the specials causes the foe to be flat-footed until their next turn, what is the purpose of this ability? Is there some ridiculous synergy that I am just missing or is this one just a bit of a dud?

[term1nally s1ck]

If you have a rogue in your party? Or, since an opponent who's flat-footed can't AoA, you can make an attack, then retreat without provoking, as you would normally. Or maybe your party just needs that extra chance to hit on a particularly tough enemy.

[BobVosh]

Oh my, this is sexy. I approve most heartily of your efforts Fax. I almost forgot you have been working on this.

I hope to hear reviews, and the next game I run should use this. Although we are still playing around with PF, so it may take a bit.

[Pelfaid]

Yeah, I thought about that and I admit making them flat-footed is a good thing, but my main concern with it is the duration. If it lasted until the beginning of your next turn I think it would be much more useful.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I'm really interested in trying this out, the only thing I found disappointing is that there are still classes with 2+int skills, I personally really like the skill system, but I've always felt the designers gave everybody a few skill points less than they should have had.
With some more skill points it becomes easier to build a well rounded character with some cross class ranks without weakening your character by missing out on vital class skills.
Except for a few skills which are OP*, most skills don't unbalance anything anyway.


* or hopefully, were OP

[term1nally s1ck]

Well the main fix he's made for skills is that a lot of them have been merged. Athletics, Awareness and Acrobatics are a single merged skill now, and Stealth is too, if only of 2 things (quite important ones though...)

This means that, while you still have the same number of skill points, each one is worth more, effectively. I'd always want to take Spot, Listen for all classes, and Tumble is always good, with Climb, Jump, and Swim being things that might often come up, but you rarely could invest ranks in. Now, you can, since they're all one skill.

EDIT: I just read the various abilities for Lay on Hand effects for Evil PCs. At Level 5, with a +4 to Cha, you can do 20 damage with a touch attack, 1/day Not that huge...but it scales disproportionately with level.

Level 10, at maybe +5-6 in Cha: 50-60 damage. Not too bad as a 1/day, but can still one-shot some of the squishier classes.

Level 15, say +8 in Cha (quite a low estimate honestly), we're looking at 120 damage. This one-shots anything of equivalent level that's not intended to tank. BIG monsters, very tough class characters (barbs, etc..)

Level 20, say +10 in Cha, we do 200 damage. This is likely to one-shot a lot of things at this level.

Not too bad though, not quite that scary....til you look at the Enlightened Devotee.

Assuming you use as many PP as you can, and with the same Cha as above, it can do 30 at LV 5, which is a fair bit, and looks like killing a few enemies outright, 100 at LV 10, which is near certain to one-shot most things, with a few exceptions, and at 15 it does 210, which is definitely going to kill anything level-appropriate, and then at 20 it does 400. 400 damage, no save, as a touch attack. That will kill anything equivalent to a Level 20 character.

This isn't that scary, Wizards have similar nova powers, as do Psions anyway...but it's more that you get 2*level damage for 4 PP. This is hugely more than PP are usually worth for other abilities. Maybe simply double the PP cost and the PP allowed?

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Well the main fix he's made for skills is that a lot of them have been merged. Athletics, Awareness and Acrobatics are a single merged skill now, and Stealth is too, if only of 2 things (quite important ones though...)

This means that, while you still have the same number of skill points, each one is worth more, effectively. I'd always want to take Spot, Listen for all classes, and Tumble is always good, with Climb, Jump, and Swim being things that might often come up, but you rarely could invest ranks in. Now, you can, since they're all one skill.


That's nice and in my opinion, a needed fix, but let's be honest, that fix is so obvious even pathfinder has it. It saves you maybe one or two skill points per level if you happen to want to take all these skills anyway, however, when you play a 10 int 2 skill points/level class, you might not even have enough skill points to buy perception. A few skill merges only means a few skills got better 1 skill point is still just that, 1 skill point.

[Eldan]

Apparently, I didn't make my character sheet public... it should be now.
Try again. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Au8GIU5EHebRdDZCYXpSNTlQVjRTT2JiLVB0bERzM 3c&hl=en)

[afroakuma]

when you play a 10 int 2 skill points/level class, you might not even have enough skill points to buy perception.

Well, that's the price you have to pay. What if you had three skill points? Would that be enough for Perception? Or is the third skill point already spoken for as well?

If you want more skill points, there is a simple solution: Put a higher number into Intelligence. Alternately, if you believe that everyone should have at least 6 points or whatever, houserule it. Simple.

In terms of game design, skill points are another resource in class development, and some classes will naturally have less. They are also intended to be restrictive, such that if you want a well-rounded character, you have to be willing to sacrifice an 18 Str to buy a 12 Int.

I feel the need to point out that d20r is actually far better for skills, whether or not you have more points, since any class skill you take any number of ranks in is automatically treated as having a minimum of one-half your character level in effective ranks. So, if you can invest one point in each class skill, you later on can buy cross-class ranks and still remain competent in your most relevant skills.


A few skill merges only means a few skills got better 1 skill point is still just that, 1 skill point.

As explained above, it's not. It's training in a class skill such that your effective ranks are always a minimum of 1/2 character level. At 4th level, that one skill point is now two: the one you invested and the second effective rank. At 8th level, it's 4.

[Thinker]

Apparently, I didn't make my character sheet public... it should be now.
Try again. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Au8GIU5EHebRdDZCYXpSNTlQVjRTT2JiLVB0bERzM 3c&hl=en)

Looks good.

[Belobog]

So who's planning a d20r game in the near future? I've been skulking around the Finding Players forum, expecting one, and nothing popped up. I need to put these ideas into action.

[Entelechy]

Well, I have been talking with Fax on IRC, but I thought I officially sign up and get my foot in the door for the Alpha in this thread.
My plans are convoluted right now, but I know I am going for a Luckthief build.
My overall plan for a build is nothing fancy. Final goal something like Luckthief 19, Warlord 1.
I will put notes on my build plan and character personality concepts in spoiler tags. If I can get them to work.
Build scheme


I really see this as more of a support character. Get flexible spells, and a great to-hit-bonus.
Then destroy the foe's saves for the casters. Another perk of warlord is getting the iniative skill. Get a good dex and try to get an early position in iniative. If you can start your encounter within 10' of an enemy, aura of unluck will be a big boon for this.
If you have 19 levels in luckthief, you get a potential +7d6 for lucky shot. This can be converted into a -7 penalty on enemy saves for the round. If you go the rapidshot or two weapon fighting route (see below) you could be getting 5 attacks by level 20, and potentially dropping the enemy's save by -35 with the steal luck ability.

I figure one of the ways to maximize the benefits of a Luckthief is to pick feats and weapons that gives you extra attacks per round. Lets you steal more luck, or if you luck is full, get more bonus d6s added to damage. This needs to be balanced of course by a nice bonus to hit.

Ergo weapon focus is your friend. Every 4 investment points gives you a +1 to hit, and a luckthief gets four points per level for investing. So you can get a free +1 every level. Assuming you have nothing better to do with those points.

As for weapon, I see three routes.
1) Spiked chain (free proficiency with warlord). Range weapon. Would let you stay within the 10' needed for your aura of unluck within being too vulnerable. Unfortunately, you could not milk extra attacks from it. But, you get points for style, as the spiked chain is a badass weapon.
2) Some manner of ranged weapon. Could be combined with rapidshot to milk more attacks per round from your attacks. Would let you keep yourself at a safe distance, while still getting in multiple attacks. You may end up too far for your opponents to be effected by the aura of unluck, but you have greater mobility, and more options. You would need to split investment points away from weapon focus, though.
3) Two weapon fighting. Extra attacks, but at a loss of flexibility (i.e. need to be within 5 feet) for attacks. Also, in addition to splitting investment between two weapon fighting and weapon focus, you would potentially have two different weapons to get weapon focus for. This could be solved by using a double weapon. Again, Warlord gives proficiency with an exotic weapon, so you could take your pick.

That is as far as my stratagy goes for now. I also plan to try to focus on skills that are based on opposed checks, since aura of unluck really helps with all those. Maybe social skills.


Personality bits

Okay, so I am a philosophy student, I admit it. My three basic questions when approaching any philsophical system is "what knowledge is possible, and why?" "What is the self?" and "What is the ordering of the universe, if any?"
It is the last question that comes into play here. I love philosophic theories about fortune, providence, fate, determinism, free will... all that stuff.
I am going to take this character as an opportunity to... play... with some of my favorite theories.
I have not figured out how, exactly, yet, but I am problably going to have a character who believes that the universe is an ordered system, and he has found a way to make his will manifest within the order.
Perhaps a Taoist aligning oneself with the Tao.
Or an approach more in line with Beothius' lovely little theories.
Nothing connected with Hegel, I am sick and tired of Hegel, though it would be SO MUCH FUN to base a paladin of the theories of Hegel.
Well, I meant go go into more detail, but now I need to sleep. Didn't really get into his personality at all.
Goodnight everyone!
Entelechy.

[term1nally s1ck]

I would be very interested in playing a campaign of this...My current build is probably gonna be a spiked chain tripper dreadnought using the Berserk Sandworm Style Feat.

I'm just looking at it once it hits 16, and the combo of reach, Combat Reflexes, Vicious Circle, Improved trip and then knockback on the followup attack is vicious beyond belief, I can completely block off access to the casters/ranged chars, and with the addition of Bloodwrath, I'm near immune to everything...DR 10, Elemental Resist 3, nearly 300 HP, a decent AC, fast healing 4 for a coupla minutes as a swift action as often as I want....and I just do not die. If I need to block a larger area, I can become a Sandstorm to gain reach, and I can become the worm in a pinch.

I actually like this build, and want to have a go at playing through with it.

EDIT: If anyone, for the sake of testing balance, wishes to play a test duel, PM me. I have 2 Characters complete, one at Level 20, one at 16, am building one at 18 right now, and I'll next look at what I can do at about L10. These are not hugely optimised characters, I've built them single-classed, so for a quick test of your build, you can try against one of these.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Well, that's the price you have to pay. What if you had three skill points? Would that be enough for Perception? Or is the third skill point already spoken for as well?

If you want more skill points, there is a simple solution: Put a higher number into Intelligence. Alternately, if you believe that everyone should have at least 6 points or whatever, houserule it. Simple.

In terms of game design, skill points are another resource in class development, and some classes will naturally have less. They are also intended to be restrictive, such that if you want a well-rounded character, you have to be willing to sacrifice an 18 Str to buy a 12 Int.

I get that, I just think the D&D desiners made skill points a too finite resource, skill point generally aren't the most powerful things in the world and given the large skill list, even if everybody gained 2 extra skill points it could still be worth it to boost int.
I do think the rebirth system is an improvement, I just think it could have used some more.

I must add that personally I am willing to sacrifice a 18 for a more rounded character, however if you use 25 point buy and you need at least 3 stats to be decent, there is simply nothing to sacrifice. And for your information, I do try to get a houserule in for extra skill points, but not everybody likes houserules for things that aren't unbalanced.



I feel the need to point out that d20r is actually far better for skills, whether or not you have more points, since any class skill you take any number of ranks in is automatically treated as having a minimum of one-half your character level in effective ranks. So, if you can invest one point in each class skill, you later on can buy cross-class ranks and still remain competent in your most relevant skills.
Well, I never said it wasn't. Though I have to admit I missed this part, I'll have to think about whether I actually like this fix or not.
The disadvantage is that a character with 2 ranks in a skill* is equally skilled as a character with 1 rank* for level 4 and higher and at certain point in the game that can mean I have to invest 5 points into a skill to get an effective +1 to it. I can think of ways to fix this, but not without overcomplicating the system.


*I know it has to be a class skill.

[afroakuma]

I get that, I just think the D&D desiners made skill points a too finite resource, skill point generally aren't the most powerful things in the world and given the large skill list, even if everybody gained 2 extra skill points it could still be worth it to boost int.
I do think the rebirth system is an improvement, I just think it could have used some more.

Trust me, skills can end up being used to annoying effect if maxed out. And I'm not referring to Diplomancer cheese either.

The problem with an across-the-board increase is that extra skill points won't be used for broad diversity. 2 more skill points per level will mean two more maxed skills. Some players would in fact go the other way, using the bonus points to purchase a couple of ranks in a field of skills, but as a general rule that won't be the case.


I must add that personally I am willing to sacrifice a 18 for a more rounded character

Are you talking about "rounded" in a concept sense, or "rounded" in a game sense? If the first, your skill ranks don't need to reflect every talent your character has. A character who grew up learning to cook doesn't need Profession (cook) because the skill rank represents a level of competence outside of the norm. Similarly, skills that the character hasn't practiced in a while can fade into the background from a statistical point of view.

If you're talking about "rounded" in a game sense, forget it. The class system doesn't exist for statistically rounded characters. If you want a jack of all trades, play a bard or rogue.


Well, I never said it wasn't. Though I have to admit I missed this part, I'll have to think about whether I actually like this fix or not.
The disadvantage is that a character with 2 ranks in a skill* is equally skilled as a character with 1 rank* for level 4 and higher

This makes sense, though. Skill ranks represent training, practice and dedicated self-improvement. Level-progressed skill boosting represents natural unconscious improvement from regular use of the skill. I can have 2 ranks in Athletics at level 1, but if I stop practicing to hone my talents, then three levels later the guy with only 1 rank may be just as skilled as me, if only because through regular use of athletics he's reached the same level.


and at certain point in the game that can mean I have to invest 5 points into a skill to get an effective +1 to it.

The training formalizes what you can already do. It doesn't give numerical benefit over your acquired ability, but it does give you the ability to deliberately push beyond that level.

[Eldan]

The discussion seems to be slightly digressing now, but I'd still like to ask:
A houserule I saw a time ago was,basically, that players get 2 more skill points which they have to spend on either cross-class or profession skills, for background purposes. What do you think of that?

[Reinboom]

The discussion seems to be slightly digressing now, but I'd still like to ask:
A houserule I saw a time ago was,basically, that players get 2 more skill points which they have to spend on either cross-class or profession skills, for background purposes. What do you think of that?

alla this? (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Mechanically_Fluffy)

[jmbrown]

So who's planning a d20r game in the near future? I've been skulking around the Finding Players forum, expecting one, and nothing popped up. I need to put these ideas into action.

Now that the holiday weekend is ending, I had some plans for one. It'll be a one-shot dungeon crawl, likely at level 10 so that everyone is powerful enough to realize specific builds but there's still room to test them out against stronger monsters.

[Eldan]

alla this? (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Mechanically_Fluffy)

I see... interesting ideas there, even though I wouldn't quite agree with some of the skills and feats on the list of "fluffies". And I'm not sure I would actually implement something similar to it, I've just seen it around and thought it would be interesting to think about.


Now that the holiday weekend is ending, I had some plans for one. It'll be a one-shot dungeon crawl, likely at level 10 so that everyone is powerful enough to realize specific builds but there's still room to test them out against stronger monsters.

I'm thinking about starting one over Skype in the european time zones, if anyone's interested. There should be a recruitment thread around.

[Entelechy]

Now that the holiday weekend is ending, I had some plans for one. It'll be a one-shot dungeon crawl, likely at level 10 so that everyone is powerful enough to realize specific builds but there's still room to test them out against stronger monsters.

I am new to the forum, and have not been able to find a Finding Player's forum. Please pardon my ignorance ( I am prone to being unable to find the obvious). Will someone link me to it?

Also, I am very, very interested in playing (a luckthief build). I would love to be one of your players for such a game, and I like to know what I need do to participate. I don't mean to pressure or rush you or anything, please forgive me if I am being pushy.
Thank you kindly,
Entelechy.

[BobVosh]

I am new to the forum, and have not been able to find a Finding Player's forum. Please pardon my ignorance ( I am prone to being unable to find the obvious). Will someone link me to it?

Also, I am very, very interested in playing (a luckthief build). I would love to be one of your players for such a game, and I like to know what I need do to participate. I don't mean to pressure or rush you or anything, please forgive me if I am being pushy.
Thank you kindly,
Entelechy.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3
Last section on the forums.

[jagadaishio]

Far Shot [Investing]
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot

Benefit: When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1.5). When you use a thrown weapon, its range increment is doubled.

Investiture: For each eight points of prowess invested in this feat, your ranges multiply by another .5. For instance, if you have five points of prowess invested in this feat, your ranges for projectile weapons is multiplied by 2, and your thrown weapons are multiplied by 2.5.

I think that either the example or the listed value for investiture is incorrect for this feat on the investiture feats page. Last I checked there was a three point difference between five and eight.

[term1nally s1ck]

I was bored, and decided to do some mock-fights with my Warlord and his Companions (3 Rogues, 1 at 18, 2 at 16, and 3 Trip/Lockdown Dreadnoughts)

They're monstrous.

They can take a SOLAR in 1 round, with ease. The Rogues all go before he does on initiative, and have Lunge (+5' reach on an attack action, and a followup second attack) so the 18 can try toTerminate him (DC 29 fort save or die), and the other two Arcane Erosion for a total of 200+whatever their attacks did.

Total damage so far, assuming 1 nat 1 on the 6 attack rolls: 21d6+214 post-DR, or to be Precise, deaded. Oh well.

The Warlord and the Dreadnoughts CdG it a few times (they also go before it guaranteed), and find a caster capable of killing it properly dead.

I've gone through slowly increasing CR enemies, and the only issue is that I can't counter spellcasting except by forcing concentration checks. If the thing is able to stay out of range and bombard us with spells, we're in trouble. Thankfully, between the trippers and the warlord readying attacks vs standard actions, I can easily shut most spellcasting down.

EDIT:

I see... interesting ideas there, even though I wouldn't quite agree with some of the skills and feats on the list of "fluffies". And I'm not sure I would actually implement something similar to it, I've just seen it around and thought it would be interesting to think about.



I'm thinking about starting one over Skype in the european time zones, if anyone's interested. There should be a recruitment thread around.

Please and thankyou

[jagadaishio]

Will the bard ever be revised to work under the spell seed system instead of the spells per day model? That goes for the other spellcasters too. It seems weird how disconnected the spellcasting classes seems from each other in their methods. At the very least, will there be variants of the classes so that there will be a spellweaving version of each and a spells per day version of each?

[afroakuma]

Will the bard ever be revised to work under the spell seed system instead of the spells per day model? That goes for the other spellcasters too.

No.

Fax intentionally is designing classes to have their own playstyles. Very few of them have a lot of crossover; sorcerer and bladeweaver both get spellweaving, but that's the largest one that comes to mind. Clerics have spells and domain powers, the psionic classes have psionic powers, cartomancers have card magic, etc.


It seems weird how disconnected the spellcasting classes seems from each other in their methods. At the very least, will there be variants of the classes so that there will be a spellweaving version of each and a spells per day version of each?

Also definitely not. Spellweaving is the arcane style that fit's the sorcerer's "niche." He literally makes up spells as he goes. Other classes use fixed spells because their effects are harder to properly replicate via spellseed, and/or because their playstyles are intentionally different.

[Lappy9000]

Diggin' the Alpha, Fax :smallcool:

I should note that anyone interested in using material from The Lords of Avramir can consider Fax's material to trump any discrepancies you find between the two projects. The mechanical aspects of the setting are in a constant flux to keep up with the changes of d20: Rebirth and while I shall try to maintain consistency, follow this rule for any inconsistencies that you find.

Also of importance is that fact that some material in The Lords of Avramir is optional for D&D 3.5 players only (it's a bit of a hybrid setting) and should not be used for the Alpha.

[afroakuma]

Also, for the record, it's really sweet. And I had absolutely nothing to do with any part of its design. None whatsoever. :smallwink: Slaad.

[term1nally s1ck]

I just finished an epic fight with Entelechy, to test his character's survivability.

Level 20, as a full class test.

I was Playing my Warlord Minionmaster, with 3 Dreadnoughts with Spiked chains, and the Sandworm feat, and 3 Rogues with the Brave fencer feat.

He was playing a Luckthief archer, but dipped warlord to get Initiative as a class skill.

The first fight was on the map used in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7408339#post7408339)

I ran into an immediate problem. With no casters, and no UMD ranks, I was in total reliance on my two lenses of true seeing to get through his illusions and invisibility. While my warlord was more than a match for him in straight ranged combat, He didn't have invis on to start with, and I nearly rushed him with my army before he turned it on and blinked away through the walls. I nearly lost my Elite Rogue to him then, as Ii found him immune to SA damage (Fortified armor wtf??) I caught him with some clever tactics, and used one of the more cheesy tricks to legerdemain his entire unattended set of items away...which included all but 6 arrows. He, in revenge, used said 6 arrows to put the Elite Rogue to -8 and dying, but the Wis rogue stabilised him at -9, and the dreadnoughts took a new job...protect the body. he then, not fancying an attempt to find unbroken arrows on the map with an angry warlord chasing him, conceded, and suggested we play a less stealthy game.

The second and third fights were on the map used in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133253).

Game 2 was not particularly fun. he rolled a nat 1 on his init check, resulting in my warlord and elite rogue going before him, along with one of the other rogues, and he dies before taking an action.

Game 3 was more even...My warlord started by taking a position high in the sky, and preparing an attack to disarm. unfortunately, he missed completely (I didn't put ghost touch on his weapon, and he was defeated by blink....whyyyyy?), and the luckthief one-shotted one of the rogue 16s, maxing his luck pool, and getting a 50% miss chance for many turns.
what followed was a demonstration of why blink is ridiculous. apart from the dodging of the attacks of my sandseeker worm, and escaping from his insides by moving ethereally, he just was not taking the arrows I needed him to take to keep him locked down. Between the trippers, some creative readied actions, and some ranged disarming, we just about managed to avoid him killing anyone else (or indeed dealing anymore damage), and pulled off the impressive trick of having the worm sit underground, and ready an aaction to eat the first thing to touch the ground that it was under...then ranged bull-rushing him down onto it from above. I shoved him down a worm's throat with an arrow. Course, he blinked out...but can't have everything.

Finally won by him flying up, and the warlord got underneath him and disarmed him then BRed him into the ceiling. The worm proceeds to take the bow about a coupla hundred feet underground, and he yielded.


Notes: My build is far from optimised for actual play. I mean, no ghost touch, really? At least I'm not actually expected to fight invisible creatures, in a good party there should be a character that can dispel that/grant the party see invisibility.
Plus, I have no buffs to use, which is disappointing.

I'll make a better version of this character, to be used for testing.

Meanwhile, if i can ask, can we re-slot magical items like cloak of charisma, etc, at 1.5*cost? I really like my cloaks of resistance. Or can we have them slotless at 2*cost, or something similar to the 3.5 stuff?

[Fax Celestis]

I have been ill with flu for four days now. I'll get back to you all as soon as I'm up to the task.

[Mythestopheles]

I have been ill with flu for four days now. I'll get back to you all as soon as I'm up to the task.

Sorry to hear that, I hope you get well soon.

I really am looking forward to trying out d20r, now if only I can convince my friends to play...

[Lappy9000]

I have been ill with flu for four days now. I'll get back to you all as soon as I'm up to the task.Remove Disease!

...waitaminute...Fax hasn't re-written that spell yet! :smalleek:

NOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo

[the_archduke]

Build question for a sorceror.

Can a living spellseed familiar take perceptive spellweaving as a feat?

[Lunix Vandal]

I don't see why not -- the detailed writeup (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104101) of the Living Spellseed template indicates that they can take Spellweaving feats. They also gain one secret from their base seed every 4 HD, and can use that to qualify for feats as well. Finally, they use their master's ability scores, albeit with -8 Str (minimum 1), +4 Dex, and -2 Con (minimum 1), so if the sorceror has the Wisdom for it, so does the familiar.

In my mind, the sticking point (in terms of meeting prerequisites) is that seed secret -- again, the familiar doesn't get it until 4 HD, which requires Sorceror 8. And oh look, the jump from 3 to 5 HD provided by Sorceror 8 doesn't give the familiar any feats, so unless the DM allows retraining you have to wait until Sorceror 11, when the seed jumps up to 7 HD (gaining a feat at 6 HD in the process).

[the_archduke]

Are there going to be any style feats for casters? I am having trouble spending all my very limited prowess as a sorceror

[Fax Celestis]

Are there going to be any style feats for casters? I am having trouble spending all my very limited prowess as a sorceror

Eventually, yes.

[Eldan]

Hmm. Another question: will there every be any, well, more interesting seeds for the sorcerer? Looking at it now, I seem very little that would interest me as a player. It can blast all day, sure, but it has almost no utility. Is it intended to stay that way, or will there ever be, say, illusion or charm seeds?

[jmbrown]

I'm thinking about starting a game over Skype... partly because I've never used Skype before and I want to see how well it works for roleplaying games. Anyone interested in a game, say saturday or sunday?

[Nero24200]

Just wanted to say congrats.

I've seen alot of eager homebrewers eager to re-write the wheel, but seem to give up pretty quickly. You on the other hand seem to be sticking this out, and doing a decent job at that, which few long-term homebrewers can say.

[term1nally s1ck]

I'm thinking about starting a game over Skype... partly because I've never used Skype before and I want to see how well it works for roleplaying games. Anyone interested in a game, say saturday or sunday?

I'd probably be up for it...depends on the time.

[Tavar]

I'd also might be up for a game. to really get a good gauge on interest, you might want to start a thread down in the recruitment section.

[Draz74]

Just wanted to say congrats.

I've seen alot of eager homebrewers eager to re-write the wheel, but seem to give up pretty quickly. You on the other hand seem to be sticking this out, and doing a decent job at that, which few long-term homebrewers can say.

This is my primary reaction too.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

The discussion seems to be slightly digressing now, but I'd still like to ask:
A houserule I saw a time ago was,basically, that players get 2 more skill points which they have to spend on either cross-class or profession skills, for background purposes. What do you think of that?

Personally, I like it a lot. But to call it necessary would be a stretch.



Trust me, skills can end up being used to annoying effect if maxed out. And I'm not referring to Diplomancer cheese either.

The problem with an across-the-board increase is that extra skill points won't be used for broad diversity. 2 more skill points per level will mean two more maxed skills. Some players would in fact go the other way, using the bonus points to purchase a couple of ranks in a field of skills, but as a general rule that won't be the case.

True, but I don't consider this a bad thing by definition



If you're talking about "rounded" in a game sense, forget it. The class system doesn't exist for statistically rounded characters. If you want a jack of all trades, play a bard or rogue.

I think I copied that term from you, but anyway, I meant in game sense in this case. What you fail to realise is that having a more rounded character is possible without being a jack of all traits, just like it's possible to be less well rounded without being a one trick pony, Why is everything always black and white with you?

[afroakuma]

True, but I don't consider this a bad thing by definition

I'm not saying it's "bad," I'm saying it's the in-game, min-maxing employment of skill points. On that count, the number of skill ranks for each class is set, and any further maxed skills you want, you need Intelligence for. I find that more than fair, since it is actually a mechanical limiter at that point.

Take the Dreadnaught's skill list, though: Athletics, Awareness, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Profession, Ride, Survival. He gets 2+Int modifier skill ranks to invest. Of those skills, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal and Profession are almost certainly covered by another party member, and are also not exactly central to a Dreadnaught's capabilities. That leaves Athletics, Awareness, Intimidate, Ride and Survival, and you probably don't need more than a few ranks in Ride. So: four skills remaining, and two skill points per level. Personally, I'd go with Athletics and Awareness, but that's me. Some people might want to splash Ride or Heal. My point, though, is that having to pick 2 out of 4 isn't "limiting," it simply prompts choice and diversity in character builds.


I think I copied that term from you, but anyway, I meant in game sense in this case. What you fail to realise is that having a more rounded character is possible without being a jack of all traits, just like it's possible to be less well rounded without being a one trick pony,

I think you'll find that no, I do not fail to realize this. What you seem to be missing in my argument is that a character who can do everything that is possible to his class is a jack of all trades within the boundaries of his class. If there is an optimal set of skills, feats and gear available and each character can get all of them, then the only thing differentiating Dreadnaught A from Dreadnaught B is their hit die rolls. Limiting skill ranks fosters more choice in skill selection and forces the decision between splashing or diversifying and maxing skills. The nice thing about d20r's system is that it rewards diversification while still permitting a fair amount of focus.


Why is everything always black and white with you?

Excuse me?

That's neither true nor called for.

Point is: it's not going to change, and if your DM won't houserule in a few extra skill points for you, then tough luck.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I'm not saying it's "bad," I'm saying it's the in-game, min-maxing employment of skill points. ~Snip~ it simply prompts choice and diversity in character builds.

You make a solid argument, but our disagreement boils down to this: I think giving players 2 more skill points gives them more options in play while it keeps enough diversity to not obstruct the number of variations significantly.
You disagree and feel that players have enough options as it is and that adding more skill point would obstruct the natural diversity in skills. (spells and feats are of course unaffected, so the build will always rely on more than rolls)



I think you'll find that no, I do not fail to realize this. What you seem to be missing in my argument is that a character who can do everything that is possible to his class is a jack of all trades within the boundaries of his class.
You used a term I'm familair with in a context I'm not familiar with, it gets confusing. But anyway, how would playing a bard or rogue fix this then? they get more skill points but they need more skills, that's why they usually want a decent to good int, how are they a "jack of all trades within the boundaries of their classes"?


Limiting skill ranks fosters more choice in skill selection and forces the decision between splashing or diversifying and maxing skills. The nice thing about d20r's system is that it rewards diversification while still permitting a fair amount of focus.

It's nice that you think so, I'll see what I think of it if I ever get to play it.


Excuse me?

That's neither true nor called for.

It was the vibe I was getting from your post, specificity this part:


If you're talking about "rounded" in a game sense, forget it. The class system doesn't exist for statistically rounded characters. If you want a jack of all trades, play a bard or rogue.



Point is: it's not going to change, and if your DM won't houserule in a few extra skill points for you, then tough luck.

Except that a lot of classes have gained more skill points and that the skill point system has been reworked, so I'm already happier than with standard D&D. And perhaps, the play testers will complain of unnecessary low amount of skill point and it will be changed, or maybe it won't.

[the_archduke]

In regards to a paladin:

The lawful Honor mantle gives a sacred bonus to attack rolls

The good Temperance mantle gives a sacred bonus to ranged attack rolls

The evil Discretion mantle gives a profane bonus to ranged attack rolls

Do I read this correctly that a Tyrant could take the lawful and evil mantles and get 2x his charisma bonus to hit with a ranged weapon but a Paladin could not because the sacred bonuses don't stack but a sacred bonus and a profane bonus do stack? Is this intended? Should Honor give an Axiomatic bonus instead?

[Zovc]

I don't think Sacred and Profane bonuses can stack. I'm pretty sure they're the same bonus with different names.

Edit: I know that sounds ridiculous, but I remember reading that somewhere.

[afroakuma]

You make a solid argument

Oh? You don't seem to think so:


You used a term I'm familair with in a context I'm not familiar with, it gets confusing. But anyway, how would playing a bard or rogue fix this then? they get more skill points but they need more skills, that's why they usually want a decent to good int, how are they a "jack of all trades within the boundaries of their classes"?

Clearly you did not understand me.

A Dreadnaught (to continue my previous example) has certain fixed limits with regard to feat selection, prowess expenditure and skills. These require him to choose carefully and define a character with certain capabilities in each field out of the spectrum available to his class.

Additional "slots" in these fields create less option and less diversity, because now there is less choice necessary. Do I have to worry about Alertness as well as Survival and Athletics? Nope, I have another two skill ranks per level, so I don't have to decide which one I can't max. The Dreadnaught next to me is doing likewise, because he's no fool. You've heard of the joke from 2E D&D wherein the only way to tell the difference between two fighters is by the weapon they're using to hit you?

My real point, though, is that skill points aren't exactly a major issue, and that the system doesn't need to adjust for them beyond the base parameters. It functions, and the character level adjustment rule actually makes it better.


It's nice that you think so

Condescension much?

I'm done arguing this triviality with you.

[Doc Roc]

Did.... I... I don't think that skill points are "unimportant" mechanically....

I'm missing part of the argument on both sides, I think.

[Belobog]

A small question:

What should we do about starting gold/equipment/Wealth By Level? Should we follow the guidelines in the SRD, or is there a sentence or two I'm missing from the links in the front?

[Charlie Kemek]

First off: love the system! If I can get a gaming group together, I am definately swiching to d20r as my regular system! That being, I have run into a question. Are there going to be any changes to the archery system? because as I have seen it, I have been building a hunter, but he seems very MAD (he needs dex to hit, str for damage and prowress feats, con for his dismal hp, int for any skill points, and wis for power points), his BAB seems too low to do any real archery, and he has no capstone. I would suggest giving the hunter an ability to use wis for attacks and strength things (damage, grapples, etc.). maybe even change the nature of archery.

Just thinking about it, I would suggest a version of zen archery.

[term1nally s1ck]

I still think that mechanically, the Warlord is just far too powerful by comparison to the other classes. Action Economy and that aside, having so many companions mmeans that a single warlord can pretty much do everything. My current one is a Ranged Buffer/debuffer, with a precision damage expert, another precision damage skill monkey, a melee debuffer (monk), 2 melee lockdown (dreadnought tripper), and an ubercharger. I have access to every single skill in the game, at maxed ranks, and am more capable in combat than any build I've seen so far (exception of possibly an ubercharger dread 20, due to that capstone, if you use your magic items to buff move speed it could doa LOT of damage to my party....but I still think that the warlord troupe would win. Pin+Trip+Disarm+Bull-rush, as a combined series of atttacks the Warlord alone can pull off before you're in range.

As it stands, there are a LOT of your classes which rely on Charisma. They will rarely if ever actually take 20 on their class, because a dip of Luckthief 4 is so powerful for each of them.

@Charlie.

If you count damage (str for almost all melee combatants), HP and skills, then rogue, monk, hunter, bladeweaver, fencer, and ranger are all MAD with 4-5 stats. Damage, HP, and skills aren't stats required by class, they're stats that are universally used. By the same token, I can say dreadnought is MAD with 4 skills, str, dex, con, int, for atk/damage, ac, hp, and skills. Skills are good, but not that important...str for an extra 2-3 damage a shot is ok, but not that good, and you'd be better off buffing up AC, saves and miss chances than boosting HP.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I

As it stands, there are a LOT of your classes which rely on Charisma. They will rarely if ever actually take 20 on their class, because a dip of Luckthief 4 is so powerful for each of them.

How can a four level dip in Luckthief be at all powerful? +2d6 precision-based damage, and a single 2nd level spell from a fairly lousy list

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Oh? You don't seem to think so:

No, I do, that's why I said it, I think our opinion differ not in how the changes would impact the game, but in how they should impact the game, which is subjective.





Condescension much?

I'm done arguing this triviality with you.
Again, no I wasn't being sarcastic, I really think it's nice you find this system better and more enjoyable, but I can't except it based on your opinion alone, I'll have to play with the system to really find out if I like it.




Did.... I... I don't think that skill points are "unimportant" mechanically....

I'm missing part of the argument on both sides, I think.

I think the point is that due to the changes in the skill system(your class skills always count as having 1/2 level in ranks) your skill points become less relevant because even if you have 0 skill points per level you can still use your skills at least decently.

[Doc Roc]

I think the point is that due to the changes in the skill system(your class skills always count as having 1/2 level in ranks) your skill points become less relevant because even if you have 0 skill points per level you can still use your skills at least decently.

You..... are kidding? Right? So I can full-dump int as a rogue now? This does not sound good.

[Eldan]

You still want to have decent int as a rogue, actually: would you like to have only half the skill ranks? Probably not. Maxed stealth and so on are still important.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

You..... are kidding? Right? So I can full-dump int as a rogue now? This does not sound good.

Well, you can, but you can do that in normal D&D 3.5 as well, but in both cases you won't be able to fill the skill monkey role, because you need to good at skills to do that.

You will however be able to play a fighter time with a decent ability to jump, ride and intimidate while still having 1 point per level due to low int.

[afroakuma]

You..... are kidding? Right? So I can full-dump int as a rogue now? This does not sound good.

He's got it wrong, actually; you need at least one rank in a class skill to get the 1/2 level benefit. Also, note that if you do,your competency at level 8 will equal a proper rogue's competency at level 1.

What it does mean, though, is that I can keep eight or more skills close to topped out and still be semi-competent at an additional however many that might still pertain to being rogue-y, but aren't as priority as Stealth, Athletics, Legerdemain etc.

[Fax Celestis]

He's got it wrong, actually; you need at least one rank in a class skill to get the 1/2 level benefit. Also, note that if you do,your competency at level 8 will equal a proper rogue's competency at level 1.

What it does mean, though, is that I can keep eight or more skills close to topped out and still be semi-competent at an additional however many that might still pertain to being rogue-y, but aren't as priority as Stealth, Athletics, Legerdemain etc.

Level-based fauxranks don't qualify you for feats/PrCs either.

[Doc Roc]

Has rogue changed considerably from the version on the wiki? If not, I'd be perfectly comfortable playing a rogue with eight, or even six int, under these rules. In fact, I'm not sure that the difference would really be noticeable.

Is this desirable?

[term1nally s1ck]

How can a four level dip in Luckthief be at all powerful? +2d6 precision-based damage, and a single 2nd level spell from a fairly lousy list

Cha to saves, and the ability to drop your opponent's saves by 2 every time you could land precision damage. For a Warlord, that makes you near invulnerable since you can already have a shield of allies, and AC out the roof...you can just fly about and shoot things to death.

For a Bladeweaver, you get to drop the opponent's saves each time you get a lucky strike on your attacks, which you are channeling spells through anyway.

Sorc is the least boosted by this....but the cha to saves might still be worth it, or if you can get a reliable way to hit regularly, the lowering of saves would be invaluable.

[the_archduke]

A sorc is much better off with two levels of paladin than four of luckthief. Cha to saves plus a mantle (wis to ac is nice if you have perceptive spellweaving and have kept you wis up... and you should have)

In fact, a two level dip into paladin is awesome for any cha based character. Just be sure to grab a mantle that is based off of your cha or wis score rather than your paladin level (Honor, Deceit, Discretion, Temperance, Prudence, Anarchy, Luck, etc).

A four level dip isn't a bad idea either, another mantle and the bonus feat for taking four levels in the same class.

I just went back and looked at luckthief... paladin 2/luckthief 3 gets his cha to saves twice (assuming that Divine Grace isn't a luck bonus as it doesn't say what kind of bonus it is)... I may have to make something out of that

[Entelechy]

I would like to point out that the precision damage from luck shot applies to spells that require an attack roll as well. So Sorcerers too can get +2d6 damage to their spells.
What would really benefit a sorcerer is a cohort with at least 4 levels in luckthief to lower saves for him.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Has rogue changed considerably from the version on the wiki? If not, I'd be perfectly comfortable playing a rogue with eight, or even six int, under these rules. In fact, I'm not sure that the difference would really be noticeable.

Is this desirable?

I would like to know why.
As rogue you are 1) a skill monkey 2) a damage dealer
by creating a six int rogue, you can max five skills and half-master the rest of you skills, in other words you're a mediocre skill-monkey, in 3.5 you would max 6 skills and you'd be a mediocre skill monkey. I don't see how this changes anything. The point of being a skill monkey is that you're good at using skills, if you play like this, that is not the case and you fail at your role.

[Doc Roc]

6 is only -2.
I'm human, so I get +1 skill points per level.

28 skill points at first level.

That's seven skills maxed, ~7 others at half.
So:
UMD
Diplomacy
Move Silently
Hide
Search
Listen
Spot
----
Disable Device
Open Locks
Knowledge(Meta)
Knowledge(Math)
Gather Information
Craft (Wishful Thinking)
Tumble

Can keep maxed for the rest of the game. Many of these skills are actually merged in d20r, so it's in fact quite a bit more compelling there.

So... it'd be...

UMD
Diplomacy
Stealth
Search
Awareness
_________
________
----
Disable Device
___________
Knowledge(Meta)
Knowledge(Math)
_____________
Craft (Wishful Thinking)
Tumble



:smallsigh:
What can Bardic Knack do for you?

[Fax Celestis]

Has rogue changed considerably from the version on the wiki? If not, I'd be perfectly comfortable playing a rogue with eight, or even six int, under these rules. In fact, I'm not sure that the difference would really be noticeable.

Is this desirable?

I fail to see a problem with this. Rogue, while partially Int-driven, is not an Int-dependent class in the way a Wizard is Int-dependent, a Cleric is Wis-dependent, or a Bard is Cha-dependent. If you want to dump Int as a rogue, there's no reason it shouldn't be possible.

[Doc Roc]

I fail to see a problem with this. Rogue, while partially Int-driven, is not an Int-dependent class in the way a Wizard is Int-dependent, a Cleric is Wis-dependent, or a Bard is Cha-dependent. If you want to dump Int as a rogue, there's no reason it shouldn't be possible.

I don't necessarily see a problem with it, but it could be a land-mine for new players.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I fail to see a problem with this. Rogue, while partially Int-driven, is not an Int-dependent class in the way a Wizard is Int-dependent, a Cleric is Wis-dependent, or a Bard is Cha-dependent. If you want to dump Int as a rogue, there's no reason it shouldn't be possible.

It's only really a problem if you think rogues should be int reliant.

by the way, I'm not sure if this is the thread to ask about details like these, but why is search rolled in with spot and listen? personally I've always liked their separation, though I can imagine that the distinction could have been vague, especially to new players.

Is there a thread where I can see some argumentations behind the change in the skill system? I'd like to read that.

[Lappy9000]

Races that have +2/-2 stat adjustments no longer provide stat penalties, just bonuses. I have heard a compelling argument towards this end and I find myself wanting to agree.

Races that have +2/+2/-2/-2 stat adjusts instead have +2/+2/-2: essentially, pick one penalty and drop it.Oh, by the way, can you post a link / give us a brief synopsis of that argument? I've been meaning to ask for a while and I'm interested in knowing the reason.

[Zemro]

Looking at things beyond the characters themselves I was wondering about a few things, and didn't see anything about them anywhere else.

Mainly I was wondering how (if at all) monsters benefited from prowess, average saves, and skill sets.

[afroakuma]

Looking at things beyond the characters themselves I was wondering about a few things, and didn't see anything about them anywhere else.

Mainly I was wondering how (if at all) monsters benefited from prowess, average saves, and skill sets.

At the moment, from what I recall, monsters are still undone.

[Mythestopheles]

I was making a dwarf warlord, and I couldn't find any dwarf racial feats. Am I missing something? Or do dwrves just not have any?

Thanks

[Lappy9000]

I was making a dwarf warlord, and I couldn't find any dwarf racial feats. Am I missing something? Or do dwrves just not have any?

ThanksThere's some Lords of Avramir feats available for dwarves here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6474537&postcount=48) that are usable in the Alpha.

To my knowledge, Fax has yet to make any racial feats for dwarves, although I imagine they're in the works.

[Zaakar]

Races that have +2/-2 stat adjustments no longer provide stat penalties, just bonuses. Races that have +2/+2/-2/-2 stat adjusts instead have +2/+2/-2: essentially, pick one penalty and drop it.

Doesn't this make Humans and other races without a stat penalty fall a little behind?

[Lunix Vandal]

Or, y'know, Shifters, who don't even have a bonus.

But it's probably okay for humans to fall "a little behind;" as I recall, even though they're fluffed as the "jack of all trades, master of none" race, they're actually one of the best available for most purposes in D&D 3.5 and 4e, pushing the limits of "LA: +0." Or so I heard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OrSoIHeard).

[afroakuma]

Doesn't this make Humans and other races without a stat penalty fall a little behind?

Meh; humans saw a lot of play in 3.X despite splat races with better stats. The bonus feat makes it a very attractive option for numerous builds, since it's a non-numerical advantage and therefore far more open-ended.

[Lappy9000]

Meh; humans saw a lot of play in 3.X despite splat races with better stats. The bonus feat makes it a very attractive option for numerous builds, since it's a non-numerical advantage and therefore far more open-ended.I agree; it's really hard to top the versitility of a bonus feat. Plus they're, you know, humans. I imagine most of us would be able to relate to them the best (with exceptions :smallwink:)

[Grifthin]

This system is similiar to 3.x no ? Which class is the closest to fighter ?

Also are there any groups that use instant message programs looking for a casual player ? I'm on the GMT +2 Timezone if anyone is available. I can play monday/Tuesday/Sunday nights. Perhaps some others at a push.

[Tavar]

the dreadnought is the closes analogue. And while it's not IM, there is a PBP game in the recruiting section.

[Lappy9000]

This system is similiar to 3.x no ? Which class is the closest to fighter ?

Also are there any groups that use instant message programs looking for a casual player ? I'm on the GMT +2 Timezone if anyone is available. I can play monday/Tuesday/Sunday nights. Perhaps some others at a push.Dreadnaught or Warlord.

Overall, the Warlord is a bit closer due to the bonus feats and combat bonuses, but Dreadnaught is the true essence of the 'tank'.

[Morty]

I have to say, I don't really like removing the ability penalties from some of the races.

[Tavar]

I have to say, I don't really like removing the ability penalties from some of the races.

Any particular reason why?

[Morty]

Any particular reason why?

It's just... I feel like your race should have drawbacks as well as advantages, so it's not just about the cool stuff you get. It's why I don't like the way 4th edition deals with races.

[Tavar]

I guess that makes sense. Though there's still an opportunity cost to doing any of this. And do the penalties really add anything to the game?

[Morty]

Yes, they do - like I said, they make your choice of the race more meaningful. It's not like a -2 to a single stat is going to cripple your character anyway.

[Tavar]

Yes, they do - like I said, they make your choice of the race more meaningful. It's not like a -2 to a single stat is going to cripple your character anyway.

True, it doesn't impact your character too much, but wouldn't a second bonus have just as much impact then? Or what about the various special abilities that the races get?

[Morty]

True, it doesn't impact your character too much, but wouldn't a second bonus have just as much impact then? Or what about the various special abilities that the races get?

What I'm saying is that the race shouldn't be defined only by the good stuff it gets but also by penalties.

[Lappy9000]

For what it's worth; while I like racial penalties and advantages, Fax's opinion has never failed me in the past.

However, I still really do want to see the logic behind the change, just so I can know where he's coming from.

[Belobog]

What I'm saying is that the race shouldn't be defined only by the good stuff it gets but also by penalties.

Yet human gets a flat +2 to any stat, an extra feat, and Improvisation, giving them a large bonus to skills at crucial times. Even though non-humans get more racial features to make up for it, it's still difficult to match up, and even stat bonuses and penalties make it harder to keep up. If nothing else, it's mechanical incentive for differentiation.

So are there any hard and fast rules for starting wealth?

[Zore]

For the sorcerer the Spellweave Familiar template should probably be linked in the write-up. I made one earlier and it was a bit of a pain to find as I can't find the old index and its not in any of the threads in the index on the front page. And do the familiars advance HD with the Sorcerer or only when they get bonus HD by the table?

[Mushroom Ninja]

I've been looking over the rules, and I'm really liking the fact that it's quite possible to reliably hit many epic skill checks by level 10.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have to say, I don't really like removing the ability penalties from some of the races.

Ditto. Even now, 'min/maxing' occurs with races. Taking out the disadvantage only leaves... maxing. There simply won't be any reason to *NOT* play a race with the most favorable attribute you are looking for, because there are no downsides. You either play x race for y class, or you are called sub-par and laughed at on the forums for your poor build-fu.

[NEO|Phyte]

Ditto. Even now, 'min/maxing' occurs with races. Taking out the disadvantage only leaves... maxing. There simply won't be any reason to *NOT* play a race with the most favorable attribute you are looking for, because there are no downsides. You either play x race for y class, or you are called sub-par and laughed at on the forums for your poor build-fu.
As opposed for being called sub-par and laughed at for poor build-fu for using a race with a PENALTY to whatever you're trying to do?

[Doc Roc]

Yes! Now we move into a brave new world of getting yelled at for not having a bonus.

[Fax Celestis]

Is this the kind of power we expect from a level 20 melee character? If it is... awesome :smallbiggrin:

Certain seeds need adjustment. Those will get tinkered with.


Casual

So, I enjoy my halfling rogues, I particularly enjoy halfling rogues who attack at range. So, here's what I've been playing with so far.

You sound like you're having fun. That, too, is important. Your Sneak Attack looks perfectly in-line with where it should be.


Warlord

Warlord's going to change: the Commandant ability is getting a nerf, and the Combat Mastery ability is getting replaced or changed.


Something that occurs to me; if you have a sorcerer/bladeweaver, how does it work - do they have separate pools of SP, can they use seeds/secrets from different classes together etc?

Seeds "cross-pollinate", but spellweaving pools don't.


Question: what constitutes an [Aura] effect? Is it just the Warlord class feature, or are similar effects, like the 'aura' a Paladin would gain from Mantle of Humility, also counted as [Aura]s? I'm asking with respect to the Leader's Obligation ability Bolstered Auras.

Anything with an aura radius effect for now. I'll go through and type [Aura] effects soon.

[Belobog]

Two small things:

One, starting wealth is missing from a lot of classes. Not to sound impatient, but what would be a good guideline for how much each sort of class should get?

Two, gods are missing alignments, but certain classes that focus on them needed to be a step within them. Do gods have by-the-book alignments, or was that removed along the line?

[Milskidasith]

The Sorcerer seems absurdly broken, in both directions. On one end, you can cast spells requiring massive numbers of saves and win with brute force, or line your allies up in a cone so you can give them all epic level weapons, and on the other hand, with 40 charisma (and no feats) you can deal... 12d4 acid damage (with secrets, it's 12d4+12, yaaaaay!). I'm seeing a disconnect there. It's not even like it's newbie friendly, because they're going to be either broken because they can cast infinite save or dies at level one, or broken because they're casting for 2d4 a round while the beatstick is attacking for 1d12 +1.5*str mod.

So, to put it into perspective:

Casual: I want to deal acid damage. *later* Pitifully underpowers his teammates at any level starting.

TO and CO (your "cannot do more than one task" things are very vague, but this can kill anything): Picks a bunch of varying seeds, but including cone and maybe a couple of buffs. When they fight, their allies have epic level weapons and they can cast "make 8 saves or suck, everybody who isn't my ally in this cone" with relative ease.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The Sorcerer seems absurdly broken, in both directions. On one end, you can cast spells requiring massive numbers of saves and win with brute force, or line your allies up in a cone so you can give them all epic level weapons, and on the other hand, with 40 charisma (and no feats) you can deal... 12d4 acid damage (with secrets, it's 12d4+12, yaaaaay!). I'm seeing a disconnect there. It's not even like it's newbie friendly, because they're going to be either broken because they can cast infinite save or dies at level one, or broken because they're casting for 2d4 a round while the beatstick is attacking for 1d12 +1.5*str mod.

So, to put it into perspective:

Casual: I want to deal acid damage. *later* Pitifully underpowers his teammates at any level starting.

TO and CO (your "cannot do more than one task" things are very vague, but this can kill anything): Picks a bunch of varying seeds, but including cone and maybe a couple of buffs. When they fight, their allies have epic level weapons and they can cast "make 8 saves or suck, everybody who isn't my ally in this cone" with relative ease.

Actually, the Burst is better than Cone for party buffing, because you can drop a burst at your feet for buffing yourself as well as your party.

But yes... forcing a half-dozen Save or Loose effects is, as I pointed out, easily doable by level 10 with minimal optimization.

In fact, stacking on SoL's is MUCH cheaper than stacking on damage. Damage should scale easier, and SoL effects more expensive. Particularly the Seed Secret SoL's.

[Doc Roc]

I agree, this is a huge problem. I did a little playing with it, and it's at least as bad as Sn&Mi suggest.

[Morty]

Another question: when playing a Ranger, should I use the core Ranger spell list?

[Tavar]

Another problem with the sorcerer: the Forceful spell secret for the Force Seed is pretty much useless, as you can only have 1 dice, therefore it's Str bonus poor.

[Milskidasith]

Ok, here's what I've got for just how broken I can make it.

Level 20 Sorcerer with Cone and Force, with Residual Spellweaving, 36 Charisma, and Specialization in Force. I cast an AC buff of +1 on me for one spell point, then I get my allies into a cone. For 1 SP per AC, I give them all a bonus (at an initial 4 points for the cone). I have three bonus points from residual spellweaving, so I've got a total of 39 spell points, -4 from Cone, meaning all my allies get a 35 armor bonus to AC that lasts for 35 hours, along with DR 35/- for free. I then again buff myself with a pitiful AC bonus, then hit myself for 39 points of AC with DR 39/-.

That's only two of my seeds, and three feats (Residual spellweaving is just for two bonus spell points, while force specialization is key because it halves the cost to do anything with it). With Weapon and this setup (with Weapon Specialization), all my allies also can get up to a +10 bonus to their weapons for two minutes, forcing a very minor concentration check on spellcasters.

That's five sorcerer bonus feats down, but I'm absolutely craptastically broken as a buffbot. Add in Wolf with Wolf Specialization and my allies weapons can all deal... uhh... whatever 33 damage die increases on 1d6 is, the table doesn't go that far.

Then I just take stuff that lets me make save or sucks, like Sound (stunning secret is a nerf, by the way, since stun immunity is absurdly common) and daze my enemies with seven saves a round in a cone my allies aren't affected by while they go around with +10 bonus hundreds of dice dealing wolf bites and an armor bonus too high to possibly let the enemies hit. Or I could blast for... uhh... at best, like 19d6, if I specialized.

[the_archduke]

Sorceror gets even more broken when you add perceptive spellweaving. Since you increase two stats every four levels, you can keep your wisdom fairly high and add 10 more spellweaving points pretty easily

Base 14 wis + 5 from levels + 6 enhancement + 5 tome or wishes (inherent) = 30 wis and ten more spellweaving points with perceptive spellweaving

[Milskidasith]

Which gives me a 43 damage die bite attack, +13 enhancement bonuses, and a two day long armor buff to myself and my allies. Damn the sorc is borked. It's a pity it doesn't also have resistance bonuses and other ways to buff, because it would be a god (even with low BAB and low HD, with that kind of armor and a bite attack dealing ~80 high damage dice with a huge enhancement bonus, you're a melee king).

[Fax Celestis]

Hm...okay, Sorc needs editing. From what it looks, mostly on the SP-per-X values. Am I wrong on that?

[Zore]

Or you could try instituting some caps on the buffs and lower the cost for direct damage. The problem is damage scales so poorly because Hp goes up exponentially, while lowering the direct damage cost to 1 per fire for instance would be overpowered at level one where 8 or 9d6 is nothing to joke about it gets less and less good as you level. Maybe higher returns at higher levels? First two d6s of direct damage are same cost and then scale back as you purchase more?

So like

3 Sp for the first two fire dice
2 Sp for the next five
1 thereafter?

[lesser_minion]

I'm starting to get pretty uncomfortable with the sorcerer in general, actually.

Quite a few of the seeds seem a bit lacklustre (powerful or not), and the way in which some effects are parts of seeds and others are secrets seems generally weird.

I'll probably go through everything and post up exactly what I like, what I don't like, and how I'd suggest changing it at some point in the future - for now, it's basically one O'Clock in the morning.

For a very emergency patch, I'd suggest requiring commitment (i.e. any SP you spend on a spell cannot be used for a later spell until the first spell ends) and removing Seed Specialisation.

[Lappy9000]

Another question: when playing a Ranger, should I use the core Ranger spell list?I believe you should. That's what the paladin does, anyways.

[Mushroom Ninja]

There doesn't currently appear to be a cap on the amount of PP a medium can pump into its visages. Is this intentional?

[Doc Roc]

I'm starting to get pretty uncomfortable with the sorcerer in general, actually.

Quite a few of the seeds seem a bit lacklustre (powerful or not), and the way in which some effects are parts of seeds and others are secrets seems generally weird.

I'll probably go through everything and post up exactly what I like, what I don't like, and how I'd suggest changing it at some point in the future - for now, it's basically one O'Clock in the morning.

For a very emergency patch, I'd suggest requiring commitment (i.e. any SP you spend on a spell cannot be used for a later spell until the first spell ends) and removing Seed Specialisation.

So now any repeating damage spell or persistent effect you lay down completely gimps you while the wizard is over there merrily laying down cloud-based CC?

[Entelechy]

Perhaps the sorceror could have the option of "burning" points for a day in exchange for a special ability.

i.e. If a sorcerer normally gets 30 points each time they cast a spell, they could "burn" a few points (X) for the day in order to get a *3 damage dice modifier. Thus 5d6 could become 15d6. But for the rest of the day, each time they cast a spell, they would only get (30-X) spell points.

This is just a rough sketch of a concept for a possible mechanic I know, but I am hoping to provide inspiration for a much more talented game-designing mind.

[Doc Roc]

We've crunched more numbers. Whole seeds need scrapping, and spellseed familiar needs to go. As it currently stands, I am not kidding when I say I am not sure I could kill a sorcerer without a full-on game break. They are in casual play the weakest, and in optimized play, they are completely and absolutely unspeakable.

[Darkkwalker]

The Sorcerer ...
can cast "make 8 saves or suck, everybody who isn't my ally in this cone"

Not sure if this has been said already or not, but, as written, the Sorcerer can't do this.
At best it's make 3 saves (one of each type) or suck and the rest.
Says so clearly in the Sorcerer spellweaving section.

[Doc Roc]

After you can force 3 must-pass saves, one for each save, each turn...
Does it matter? Really? That's bad enough.

[Human Paragon 3]

After you can force 3 must-pass saves, one for each save, each turn...
Does it matter? Really? That's bad enough.

QFT. Fax, limit it to one save per spell, but sorcerer can usually choose the save.

[Milskidasith]

6 must pass saves; your familiar casts effectively enough to force save or dies at only a slightly lower DC than you do.

Also, Cartomancer is just as broken. You can revive your allies starting at level 2 (on a really good check) and you can get multiple rerolls on every roll freely.

[lesser_minion]

So now any repeating damage spell or persistent effect you lay down completely gimps you while the wizard is over there merrily laying down cloud-based CC?

I suggested it as an emergency nerf rather than a fix, but that's a fair point.

Implementing it properly would involve giving the sorcerer a few points in excess of what she can spend on any given spell, and to get that to work would probably require a review of spell costs - that's why it's not an actual fix. It would also require a look at how certain seeds work.

There are quite a few points I'd like to see addressed, but I don't want to point them out until I can suggest how to do it. I'm pretty sure the class will see an extensive review.

In essence though, I'm pretty sure that there are quite a few seeds that simply aren't good seeds, regardless of their power or lack of power. The same seems to go for Secrets.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hm...okay, Sorc needs editing. From what it looks, mostly on the SP-per-X values. Am I wrong on that?

What is broke, precisely, is the fact that you can force multiple Saves for Save or Loose effects, by level 10, for stupid DC's. Odds are, he's gonna fail ONE of 'em.

The secret of the break I caused was in the Seed Secrets. I only pay 1sp to force a Save or Loose? YES PLEASE!!!!!

Seed Secret costs need to go way the hella up. No, seriously. Like DOUBLE the cost of the base seed. Or more. That's where you are getting game breakers from.

Lowering cost of damage output might be good too.

Limiting number of Secrets per spell should also seriously mitigate the break.

[Tehnar]

On the subject of racial penalties and bonuses:

Having a penalty to one score, means that usually there are few members of that race that choose classes tied to that score. So you won't see many orc wizards running around. The problem is when races have no penalties to their scores; the perception shift to that the race sucks at all classes except those that benefit from the racial bonuses.

They did this with 4e and I don't think it worked well. The perception went from this race is not good at few classes to this race is only good at few classes and for others it sucks. In other words if you want to play a 4e Chaladin you will pick a half elf, or dragonborn, or some cha+(str, con, wis) race. What Im saying that for a certain class you will only get a few acceptable races, while others will be automatically discarded.

[Eldan]

Also, I like the idea of elves being actually frail, halflings being actually physically weak, and so on. It's a little bit more complicated for mental ability penalties, but for the physical ones, I prefer it that way.

[Vadin]

Huh. No racial penalties is one of the things my group liked most about 4e. Halfling fighters, while still generally a bit weaker than Medium sized fighters due to the smaller weapon size, were suddenly viable. Not completely optimized, of course, but viable. And the elven barbarian who paints himself up in tattoos and hides in the trees waiting to pounce on people? Not an awful choice, just a strange one. Humans who were suddenly actually perfectly reasonable choices for a class? A lot better than, "Why are you playing a human? They're worthless except for that feat! Take X race, it has bonuses to the ability scores this class needs!". Now it's, "Oh, a human? Alright. That +2 ability bonus and the free feat and extra defenses are solid choice for any build." The removal of ability penalties let my group play games where the elves were fierce, the dwarves were corrupt with demonic powers, and humans that can be pretty good at anything (ok, so that last one isn't different at all).

tl;dr: Switching to just bonuses has never been a problem in any actual game I've been in and has only been seen as a way to make playing certain previously scoffed at race/class combinations more viable.

[Eldan]

Actually... humans were often one of the best race for most builds in 3.5. The extra feats is often worth more than the +2 to a stat, except in extreme cases, like casters, and even they love more metamagic.

[Milskidasith]

MM >>>>>> +1 DC. Also, Cartomancer is even more broken than the sorcerer, and I find it to be a bad idea to try and combine so many disparate spellcasting systems... spellweaving, skill based checks, vancian casting, and manifesting all in one system are insane.

Remember, if you play a cartomancer, you get 9 rerolls on EVERY ROLL. Including enemies rolls. Who needs sorcererous tricks when you can force 9 rerolls on all your saves and 9 rerolls to make sure you can cast?

[Lappy9000]

MM >>>>>> +1 DC. Also, Cartomancer is even more broken than the sorcerer, and I find it to be a bad idea to try and combine so many disparate spellcasting systems... spellweaving, skill based checks, vancian casting, and manifesting all in one system are insane.

Remember, if you play a cartomancer, you get 9 rerolls on EVERY ROLL. Including enemies rolls. Who needs sorcererous tricks when you can force 9 rerolls on all your saves and 9 rerolls to make sure you can cast?Where on the Prime Material are you seeing this? I can't find it at all.

[Lunix Vandal]

Card I: Wheel of Fortune. As long as it's in your hand, it grants X luck rerolls (that "may be used on any time on any roll"), where X is your hand size. I imagine any sane DM would Rule 0 in the vital-but-missing words "per day" and "on your turn."

[Lappy9000]

Oh. Well, I was assuming it was on something that was...ya know, finished :smallwink:

[Belobog]

Fax does say 'Use at your own risk' and has since turned to others to make cards for the class. It's possible some or all of the cards in the example for the class will be thrown out in favor of other cards. However, let's assume the worst here:

We have our Cartomancer, Vinny. Vinny here is assumed to be a +2 Cha race and to have rolled a 20, giving us a 22 Cha and a +6 modifier. He is also level two, and has put max ranks in both Cartomancy and UMD, for a total modifier of +13. He has two cards in his hand, giving him two rerolls on any roll whenever he wants per day(italics for parts Fax has clarified).

During a fight, Vinny's friend, Danny, is coup de grac'd. Vinny goes over, trying the Revivify skill on Danny to save him. The DC is 30; if he gets between 1 and 5 less than this, he takes 10 nonlethal damage (spell level*2), and the spell activates. If he's short by 6 or less, the spell fails and he still takes nonlethal damage; if he fails by 10, the spell fails and the damage is lethal. He needs a 17 or higher to succeed without penalty: If he fails to roll above an 8, he could kill himself. Under the card's current powers, he effectively has three tries to get this right; if uses his rerolls, he's out for the day. This is the best the situation is going to get at this level.

I'm not saying this is not too powerful. It is too powerful. But it is one card. It is easy to remove this card, and ones of its power, from the game, or to adjust them to be usable. On that note, I'd like to know what other cards people feel are this bad; so far, this has been the only one to cause stir.

[afroakuma]

You'll note that Cartomancer was marked as not being suitable for the alpha. There are... reasons. :smallconfused:

I'd just ignore and avoid it, for now.

[Milskidasith]

Skill based casting in general is terribad. I also find the concept that I can bring somebody back from the dead 40% of the time, yet fail to deal 1d4 fire damage 10% of the time, atrocious.

Even with the luck rerolls changed to being per day, it's still very powerful. How often are you going to need to reroll just to get rid of bad luck, honestly? After that it's purely used to ensure the enemies can't hit me or pass their saves.

EDIT: (Note when I just say it's crap, I mean it's weak and needs to be entirely rewritten).

Seal Fate should be either a higher level, or allow Wish and Miracle to restore it. A 5th level spell shouldn't automatically negate divine intervention or the direct alteration of reality (well, more direct). Either that, or it should have some way of untrapping the soul.

Firebolt is crap. Seriously, at level two, with maxed out skills and a +2 item of cha with a +2 race, you can only be guaranteed 1d4 fire damage, and if you want to match the 2d6 or higher that other casters can get, you need to take a decent chance of failure. It should probably be d6s, at the least, with a lower DC to scale.

Healing Touch is crap, again.

Deep Freeze is crap.

Invisibility is powerful because of the fact you can stay invisible and make attacks. If enemies don't have a detection method, it's an I win button.

I stopped reading after that, because I'm going to bed soon.

[Lappy9000]

EDIT: (Note when I just say it's crap, I mean it's weak and needs to be entirely rewritten).Here's an idea; even with a forward, how about not passing off a curse as justifiable critique for one's work?

[Doc Roc]

Here's an idea; even with a forward, how about not passing off a curse as justifiable critique for one's work?

Actually, all of his points are valid, though perhaps not so bad as is suggested, from a purely mechanical standpoint.
Consider that we were asked to review cartomancy and look for balance issues. And what curse?