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Fuzzie Fuzz
2009-11-24, 12:56 AM
So I'm DMing a 4e campaign for a party of first time D&D players (myself included in the n00bishness), and I'm wondering how to deal with PC death. Especially at early levels, 500 gp for a Raise Dead spell is a lot of gold to cough up, if you can even find someone to cast it for you, or someone to sell you a scroll. My players are kinda' attached to their characters, and understandably so, so just rolling up a new character every time they die seems like a poor solution. (Not to mention the plot problems this creates...) The DMG doesn't really seem to address this issue. I don't want to just leave the player with nothing (or very little to do, anyways) for very long, either, so going on a quest to retrieve their soul seems like a poor idea, though as a one-time epic-tier thing, that could be kinda' cool, traveling to the underworld and all. I can't do that every time somebody doesn't flee from a Grue fast enough or something...

So: what do you (or your DM) do when PCs die?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-24, 12:57 AM
He shall be missed.

*Moment of silence*

Dibs on the staff.

Sploosh
2009-11-24, 01:16 AM
He shall be missed.

*Moment of silence*

Dibs on the staff.

The Gamers ftw.

If you start tossing out "freebies" when the PCs die from every Tom, **** or Harry then you are going to trivialize death. Death no longer becomes anything more than a sidestep (staff for bringing back bards) around a current day. Ie. "Well, we go res Joe for 50 silver then get back on exactly with the story".

At this point you might as well just have a rule saying he who dies must go get more beer and pretzels and can come back in after.

This works the same way with adding new players. Do you want them to "magically appear as friends" because you dont want to have them wait out?

Instead, why not change your perspective. The story is dynamic and thus, having to go find someone to bring back your comrade or meeting a random stranger should never take away from a story because it is part of the story.

You could increase dynamic by having economical diversity. Maybe some diamonds in a place are common as dirt and it would be drastically cheaper, or in a place you may not be able to get one for four times the price and instead go off to find a shady distributor or earn the favor of someone.

If you are having enough deaths that this will change the focus of the game from "Lets go find a magic sword" to "Lets keep getting diamonds" then you might need to simply change some things as a group.

Death in 4e isn't as prevalent in D&D as any of the other editions and learning when to run away might not be a tactic often discussed in your group. Are they dying to things they could prevent and thus, nip it in the bud?

What an old group I played with did when we had a similar problem (running was not an option and we had a tendacy to provoke ancient wyrms) was have our characters have backgrounds to accomodate.

If you are an agent of an order, or even just a sibling in an actively involved family it isnt too much of a stress to have someone take up your cause or avenge you.

Maybe you were an agent of the duke of Rezzingham and he sent a squad of rangers to make sure no harm came to you. You then discover these shady trackers as they conviently arrive shortly after the PC's death and want to know where he is and what happened.

Boom, your PC is now the head guy.

nightwyrm
2009-11-24, 01:29 AM
Use the old school solution. Tell your player to create a new character who is identical to the old one and call him the old one's younger brother.

JonestheSpy
2009-11-24, 01:41 AM
Use the old school solution. Tell your player to create a new character who is identical to the old one and call him the old one's younger brother.


Boooo! Hisss!

Xzeno
2009-11-24, 01:53 AM
Use the old school solution. Tell your player to create a new character who is identical to the old one and call him the old one's younger brother.

You have to make sure you do this even if the character in question was female. If questions are asked, comment on the weather.

taltamir
2009-11-24, 02:19 AM
He shall be missed.

*Moment of silence*

Dibs on the staff.

isn't that how one handles death IRL?

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-24, 07:38 AM
I surprised my DM one time. After I'd but the dust, he said to roll up something quick and he'd get me back in. I politely declined, then said "So I find myself standing at the gates to Kord's heaven. What next?"

The thought of continuing to adventure in the afterlife (with the goal to get back to help my friends) hadn't even occurred to him. I got a little mini adventure that later got me back with the party and all was good after that.

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 07:46 AM
I surprised my DM one time. After I'd but the dust, he said to roll up something quick and he'd get me back in. I politely declined, then said "So I find myself standing at the gates to Kord's heaven. What next?"

The thought of continuing to adventure in the afterlife (with the goal to get back to help my friends) hadn't even occurred to him. I got a little mini adventure that later got me back with the party and all was good after that.

I've used this as a DM before, but only if all of the characters died close together. They ended up in some "communal afterlife" where they had to convince the gods that they were still needed on the Prime Material.

If one character dies, new character time. There's almost always points in an adventure where you can work a new character in.

Mystral
2009-11-24, 08:05 AM
Kill 'em all.

Seriously, though:

It is pretty hard to die in 4.0. Have them play at least 1 leader and 1 character with basic healing abilities. Throw in enough potions, and nothing short of a tpk will keep them down.

And when they really die, allow them to lug their companions to a nearby shrine. If they can't pay for the resurrection, make them do a quest for the respective faith. Let the player(s) of the deceased characters play hirelings that are hired to replace the fallen, or members of the church. Make a few character sheets for this occasion, 1-2 levels weaker then the party, and hand them out when the time comes. This way, everyone stays in the game and has fun.

Storm Bringer
2009-11-24, 08:35 AM
The real trick of being a DM is to know when to cheat in order to stop someone Not Having Fun.

If you think that the players will not enjoy a fetch quest to bring Joe back, then fudge the dice so that Joe is not dead.

Most Dm's use a screen of some kind to hide their adventure notes form the players, so they can;t lean over and cheat. One other advantage of the screen is that it allows the DM to roll in private, without the players knowing what was rolled (or why. equalling important). you can buy screens, which have loads of handy reference tables on them to save shearching though books, but if you can't afford/are unwilling to pay, just use a few books to create an area where you can roll and the players can't see the result.

this means that when the monster lands a blow the should kill a player, you can change it to almost killing him, leaving him alive enough to do something about it. if the player didn't see any of the dice rolls, he won't know what just happened, so long as your not too obvious about it ("So, the master swordsman has just missed seven rounds running?").

This is a part of what is reffered to in the 3rd edition as 'Rule 0' which basically said the DM has the right to change and modify the rules to suit his needs. the DM's main job is the make sure everyone has fun, and the rules and dice are a means to that end, not an end in themselves. If bending the rules allows for the players (all the players) to have More Fun, then it's fine.

out of intrest, do you routinly keep track of the players vital combat stats (mainly AC and health)? if not, do so. not only does it speed things up and reducding the amount of time spent asking the players things, but it means you know when to fudge the dice a little. if, for example, your monster is in combat with two players, one of whom alright the the other badly hurt, you'd focus your attacks on the unhurt one, to give the wounded player a chance to heal up/back off/whatever. justify it how you want, but the aim is not to kill the players unless they do somthing really, really stupid.

ken-do-nim
2009-11-24, 10:04 AM
So I'm DMing a 4e campaign for a party of first time D&D players (myself included in the n00bishness), and I'm wondering how to deal with PC death. Especially at early levels, 500 gp for a Raise Dead spell is a lot of gold to cough up, if you can even find someone to cast it for you, or someone to sell you a scroll. My players are kinda' attached to their characters, and understandably so, so just rolling up a new character every time they die seems like a poor solution. (Not to mention the plot problems this creates...) The DMG doesn't really seem to address this issue. I don't want to just leave the player with nothing (or very little to do, anyways) for very long, either, so going on a quest to retrieve their soul seems like a poor idea, though as a one-time epic-tier thing, that could be kinda' cool, traveling to the underworld and all. I can't do that every time somebody doesn't flee from a Grue fast enough or something...

So: what do you (or your DM) do when PCs die?


My old school heart weeps at this post. Death can actually be enjoyable! I love telling pc death stories. Furthermore, if your campaign has an ideal death rate, then everyone will remain excited all the time. Too little death and the game is too easy, thus it is boring. Too much death and the game is too hard, thus it is boring. How much death is right? I think one death every 4-6 sessions. As for your plot problems, you need to create D&D plots that don't break unless there is a TPK. If you've decided that a given character is secretly the lost prince and when he discovers his identity will challenge the evil usurper for the kingdom, then I say you are playing the wrong game.

valadil
2009-11-24, 10:08 AM
If the party can afford a resurrection, get a rezzed. If they can't, divide up the loot and reroll. I have yet to see a PC get a proper funeral.

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 10:14 AM
My old school heart weeps at this post. Death can actually be enjoyable! I love telling pc death stories. Furthermore, if your campaign has an ideal death rate, then everyone will remain excited all the time. Too little death and the game is too easy, thus it is boring. Too much death and the game is too hard, thus it is boring. How much death is right? I think one death every 4-6 sessions. As for your plot problems, you need to create D&D plots that don't break unless there is a TPK. If you've decided that a given character is secretly the lost prince and when he discovers his identity will challenge the evil usurper for the kingdom, then I say you are playing the wrong game.

Agreed. I once played a character that fell in love with another character (awkward OoC, but worked IC). My character's death sparked a whole slew of adventures about the party (specifically, my character's love interest) trying to get my character raised, or failing that, avenged. Death of a character, even a favorite one :smallfrown:, can be a GREAT plot hook.

Beelzebub1111
2009-11-24, 10:23 AM
a lot of older modules hand the players a Rod of Resurrection for particularly deadly adventures. <See: Gamers: Dorkness Rising>

SimperingToad
2009-11-24, 10:40 AM
If the players cannot handle their character dying, tough. This is a no whiner zone. They probably should go play a computer game so they can reboot or start again from their last save.

It's part of the game. The characters are doing something (presumably) dangerous, and death occasionally happens.

If you are uncertain just how much the PCs can handle, start them off light on the encounters and increase the difficulty until you feel the challenge is appropriate. They may be a little dissapointed in the early going, but you both get a feel for how combats work and will get a sense for what is appropriate in time.

Someone who whines about PC death all the time is in it not for the adventure, but their own personal glory. Many of the more memorable, and quite often more amusing, anecdotes in groups I have played come from PC deaths.

ken-do-nim
2009-11-24, 10:40 AM
a lot of older modules hand the players a Rod of Resurrection for particularly deadly adventures. <See: Gamers: Dorkness Rising>

Name one. I can't think of any.

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 10:45 AM
Name one. I can't think of any.

Seconded. 25 years playing and never saw one.

Cyanic
2009-11-24, 10:46 AM
At this point you might as well just have a rule saying he who dies must go get more beer and pretzels and can come back in after.


I like this method (scribbles into houserules) :smallbiggrin:

Sairyu
2009-11-24, 10:49 AM
If someone's character dies, they stay dead. Granted, this is after fudging dice rolls to avoid stupid deaths like being critted 2-3 times in a round in their character's first round of combat ever, but I don't see any problems here.

The player just rolls up a new character. After all, it's not like Blackleaf dying is going to cause player suicide.

Beelzebub1111
2009-11-24, 10:59 AM
Name one. I can't think of any.
Off the top of my head we got one for The Illithiad.

While a video game example, you get one in Hoards of the Underdark.

The good thing about a Rod of Resurection is the limited uses. But then again this was second edition where your race depended on how many charges you used.

Fhaolan
2009-11-24, 11:02 AM
I try to arrange it so that when a PC dies, their player meets a similar gruesome fate... what?

Oh, all right.

I have to say that while the temptation of making death a revolving door is there as DM, I recommend resisting that temptation. Not because it's punishing anyone, or because I enjoy cruelty... much, but because everyone needs reminders that it's just a game on occasion. While it's very difficult to 'win' D&D, because it's a game it's possible to lose.

In my experience, if a player has become so attached to a PC that they are unwilling to let them die in-game and start a new character, they are starting to lose perspective. The character is a fictional entity in a game. If they want, they can write stories about the character, bring an identical character to a different game, so on, so forth. But this event happend to this version of the character, and the game goes on.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-24, 11:04 AM
If you're on a time-sensitive adventure, you have to manage without the guy. If you stop to resurrect him the BBEGs/McGuffin will get away. After that, get the resurrection you need.

Triaxx
2009-11-24, 11:06 AM
I don't know about 4e, but in 3.5, I found the best way was to remove the Resurrection series and only use Reincarnation. Dying a male Half-orc Barbarian, and resurrecting a female halfling is guaranteed them to stop.

Bagelz
2009-11-24, 11:14 AM
at low levels, before you can afford such spells,
the theory is that you haven't been playing that character long enough to get seriously attached.
This is different for each person. I once played recklessly in order to kill one of my characters, on purpose, so that I could reroll a different class (there was little penalty for death, as we were allowed to make characters of the same level, not level one)

on the other hand I had a friend who couldn't make her druid effective, but wouldn't give up on that character despite frustration.

My current 4e game if we die we reroll level 1 characters, so thats a little worse, in which case, run run away.

Chaelos
2009-11-24, 11:31 AM
My view on this has always been: Death can be fun, if it's impermanent.

Letting Big Ben the Barbarian die when he's fouled up is OK. It may even encourage smarter play or better player interaction, as it reminds players that they're not recurring characters in a long-running TV show. So long as death is infrequent and not irrevocable, I see no problem with allowing a character to die here and there, if they've earned it.

Destroying a character's soul, body and essence, on the other hand, is a **** move.

drengnikrafe
2009-11-24, 11:39 AM
I treat my PCs like criminals. No, not in any bad way, like in the "3 strikes and you're out" way. If they should've died, their PC becomes incapable of functioning for the remainder of the battle, but they are ignored as well, and at the end of the battle, they're back. They get 2 such instances. After that, they die, they're gone. That's when my advice stops being useful.

Rhiannon87
2009-11-24, 12:03 PM
My group employs the mulligan system. Everyone gets 1d3 "get out of death free" chances... but you don't, under any circumstances, tell the players how many freebies their characters have. Whenever a player would die, they're instead at -9 and stabilized (and you, as DM, really should not be a jerk and have an enemy go over and coup de grace them while they're down, that's just cruel). Once you've used up your deaths, well, either your party's gotta pony up the cash to raise you, or start crafting someone new.

In my group, we're all big roleplayers, so we have a stash of 25,000 gp worth of diamonds (3.5 ed, can't believe how cheap raise dead is in 4e) to use to bring people back from the dead. Then again, we're 12th level, so we have the cash and a cleric who can cast raise dead.

Comet
2009-11-24, 12:09 PM
I treat my PCs like criminals.
This is just asking to be quoted out of context :smallbiggrin:

In our group, PC death is either:

A) Doesn't happen.

or

B) Happens all the time.

I'm not a huge fan of ressurection, in either case.

truemane
2009-11-24, 12:11 PM
What I do, most of the time, and have done for a few years now, is play on 'None-Lethal Mode.' This involves a change in the relationship between the players and the DM and the game, but it works as thus:

Most of the time the PC's can't die. If the rules say they're dead, they're really just mangled beyond all hope of repair and stay in a coma for a dramatically appropriate length of time and maybe come out of it with some manner of permanent disability.

Now, that being said, this rule is no excuse for stupidity. If you jump into a cage filled with rabid border collies because 'DM sez im teh g0d-m0de lol' you're dead. Similarly, you sink to the bottom of the ocean, you're probably done. But for any sort of 'random' damage, you're covered.

And then, for the big fights, you tell them Lethal Mode is engaged, and it's suddenly a whole new ball game. And similarly, if someone wants to shrug off Lethal-Mode for something really cinematic, I'm happy to hand over some bonuses and let the dice fall where they may.

And it works. Really, really well actually.

The guy who invented E6 has a small set of rules on the 'Death Flag' that are interesting. But I generally use Non-Lethal as a story device. Basically it means that your character won't die unless it's for something important.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that this is always one of the conversations I have with groups when I start a new game. I've had groups refuse Non-Lethal Mode, preferring the constant risk of death. But I've had more groups embrace it as a chance to grow really attached to their characters without worrying that a stray arrow or a random critical will kill them.

Hzurr
2009-11-24, 12:20 PM
Name one. I can't think of any.

Red Hand of Doom, is a more recent one that comes to mind (there's a staff of life that PCs get pretty early on, with just enough of a charge left to bring a character back.

Pyramid of Shadows is another recent one (players can search a particular area, and find the "Raise Dead" scroll with just enough residuum to cast it once. This is a pretty brutal module, though; so it might very well be needed.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-24, 12:26 PM
Kill 'em all.

Seriously, though:

It is pretty hard to die in 4.0.

This. Seriously, Ive never seen anyone die in 4.0 against anything even vaguely level appropriate. If they are dying frequently, something is terribly wrong. Either they're far too gung ho, leaping into things they shouldn't, not using tactics at all...or something.

Death has to happen occasionally, IMO. Otherwise, things don't feel risky that really should. When it does happen, it shouldn't be trivial to fix. If you don't have the money...become indebted to an NPC that does. Fun, fun.

ken-do-nim
2009-11-24, 12:37 PM
Red Hand of Doom, is a more recent one that comes to mind (there's a staff of life that PCs get pretty early on, with just enough of a charge left to bring a character back.

Pyramid of Shadows is another recent one (players can search a particular area, and find the "Raise Dead" scroll with just enough residuum to cast it once. This is a pretty brutal module, though; so it might very well be needed.

Both of those sound fine to me. First, there's a difference between one charge and a whole bunch of charges. Second, there's a difference between being handed an item, and finding an item.

Moving on ...

The last 3.5 game I played in the DM made what I consider to be an inexcusable ruling. We were 15th level characters battling a nightstalker. The nightstalker used finger of death, the classic save or die, on the party ranger. The ranger's player rolled a 1 and failed the save. The DM overruled the spell description and said that the ranger was unconscious at -9 hit points and stable instead of dead. After the game ended, I asked him why he did that and he said it was because it is no fun to die because of a bad roll. The DM really had been handing out mulligans left and right all along before that, like the player who lost track of her character's hit points, and when a blow came that might have killed her, the DM gave her an extra 10 hit points "just to be on the safe side" in case her calculations were wrong.

My point being ... don't cheapen death, DMs! Especially when the party is high level and has access to resurrection anyway.

Fortinbras
2009-11-24, 02:08 PM
Both of those sound fine to me. First, there's a difference between one charge and a whole bunch of charges. Second, there's a difference between being handed an item, and finding an item.

Moving on ...

The last 3.5 game I played in the DM made what I consider to be an inexcusable ruling. We were 15th level characters battling a nightstalker. The nightstalker used finger of death, the classic save or die, on the party ranger. The ranger's player rolled a 1 and failed the save. The DM overruled the spell description and said that the ranger was unconscious at -9 hit points and stable instead of dead. After the game ended, I asked him why he did that and he said it was because it is no fun to die because of a bad roll. The DM really had been handing out mulligans left and right all along before that, like the player who lost track of her character's hit points, and when a blow came that might have killed her, the DM gave her an extra 10 hit points "just to be on the safe side" in case her calculations were wrong.

My point being ... don't cheapen death, DMs! Especially when the party is high level and has access to resurrection anyway.

or don't use Finger of Death if you don't want to kill anyone. Its called Finger of Death for a reason.

Zonack
2009-11-24, 02:12 PM
So I'm DMing a 4e campaign for a party of first time D&D players (myself included in the n00bishness), and I'm wondering how to deal with PC death. Especially at early levels, 500 gp for a Raise Dead spell is a lot of gold to cough up, if you can even find someone to cast it for you, or someone to sell you a scroll. My players are kinda' attached to their characters, and understandably so, so just rolling up a new character every time they die seems like a poor solution. (Not to mention the plot problems this creates...) The DMG doesn't really seem to address this issue. I don't want to just leave the player with nothing (or very little to do, anyways) for very long, either, so going on a quest to retrieve their soul seems like a poor idea, though as a one-time epic-tier thing, that could be kinda' cool, traveling to the underworld and all. I can't do that every time somebody doesn't flee from a Grue fast enough or something...

So: what do you (or your DM) do when PCs die?

It shouldn't matter.
Like old saying goes... It is a game!

Thisi a big problem in my current table... so far I am the only loser that has died because the Storyteller/DM knows I won't ragequit and leave his game because he killed him. (And I have died fair and square... well mostly).

Everyone gets too attached to their character and they don't want to lose.
There is no reason not to kill a character, even if he spent 10000 days making his background (like I am doing now with my Human Paladin), I have a great backstory, I have great objectives... but I might die at level 5 or 14... and what happenes? I make another character with amazing backstory! because.. where is the fun? Since the DM won't kill me I can start doing stupid ****... after all the DM will make some whacky excuse of how I won't die even if I charged Tiamat and 100 Dragons by myself. naked and with a dagger.

By... let's say... Bahamut sacrificed himself to save a guy that doesn't even respect him.

I exxagerated with the previous example... but seriously DM's have saved characters that way.... its annoying.
Just like this Vampire : The Masquerade story... we are the chosens of Caine himself... so he saves our asses... which means we are playing... some multiplayer game with God Mode activated...

Seriously, thats a big flaw of RPG people, LET GO!
Experiment other characters, and don't cry because your character died.

My humble opinion.

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 02:32 PM
It shouldn't matter.
Like old saying goes... It is a game!...
...blahblah...
...My humble opinion.

Your humble opinion is seconded.

Learning to role-play means learning to deal with the death of your character. If you're really attached to a character bring them back as the NPC ruler of some country, or as a merchant, or as a quest-giver, in your campaign world. But seriously folks...when a character dies, they're dead...natural 1's happen, you know?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-24, 02:36 PM
I've never understood people being so attached to their characters like that. I recently had one character I absolutely love(and will rebuild in another game because I haven't done enough with her) get ganked. It happens, it sucks, and you move on. I was looking forwards to introducing my replacement. Adventurers basically live behind enemy lines with no backup. Death should be common.

t_catt11
2009-11-24, 02:44 PM
I'm an old school codger. I've buried more characters than a great deal of 4e characters have ever played. That's how it was in my day, and we liked it!

Seriously, though, you are roleplaying some guy who thinks it is a good career choice to wander into places that sane people avoid, hoping to use a pointy stick (or similar object) to keep vile monsters from feasting on your flesh, all in the hopes that you'll bring home something sparkly. The career choice in inherently dangerous. Sometimes, you die.

**shrug** Roll up a new character, lay out a new backstory, then later on, you can tell the tale of how Grognar the barbarian stood bravely against an unstoppable horde, allowing his allies to reach safety at the expense of his own life. Truth of said story is optional.

bosssmiley
2009-11-24, 02:49 PM
I take a couple of leaves from Jeff Rients (http://jrients.blogspot.com/) and SuperNecro's (http://superheronecromancer.blogspot.com/) playbooks when PCs die in my Lab Lord game:


Heroic Escapes
-- by Superhero Necromancer
When a character is killed, be it through loss of hit points, failing a saving throw, or through poison, spell, or treachery, the player may opt to have the character lose a level instead. The character is taken out of action for the rest of the encounter and suffers as much loss as possible, short of death or permanent disability, but they’re alive.

Friends, we are gathered here to mourn the passing of Bob’s cleric. What was his name?
-- by Jeff
When an adventurer dies and the party is unable (or unwilling!) to raise them from the dead, an heir or promoted sidekick may opt to give the departed a Heroic Send-off. This requires at least 24 hours and something cool like a big-ass funeral pyre, raising a burial mound, or a funeral ship floated down the river. The corpse must be armed and armoured for combat, as appropriate to their class.

Each party member may donate up to 100gp x level of the stiff as grave goods, the amount spent is converted to bonus XP for the donor.

Each party member may also donate one magic item to the grave. Scrolls, potions, and other one-shot items net a bonus of 100xp, while permanent items get you 1,000xp. Magic items that would have been unusable by the deceased do not count.

While the grieving survivors are doing this (and reciting eulogies) the bereaved player is rolling 3d6, in order. :smallbiggrin:

Vitruviansquid
2009-11-24, 02:50 PM
Death is permanent. I don't believe in raise dead spells except for very very extraordinary circumstances (basically, Jesus.)

That said, I also wouldn't mind if the player wants to roll an identical character and be the octuplet brother of his previous character.

Anonymouswizard
2009-11-24, 02:54 PM
Having only played 3e/3.5 I'd say this: if the players can survive an encounter don't fudge unless it is a TPK or they can't get a raise dead. However, if they as 5th level characters went and charged the Snarl, destroyer of world; then they deserve to die. But if you knew they would charge, why did you put it there in the 1st place.
1st level character=kobolds. 40th level wizard=snarl. Two simple equations.

Aron Times
2009-11-24, 03:13 PM
In my group, we're all big roleplayers, so we have a stash of 25,000 gp worth of diamonds (3.5 ed, can't believe how cheap raise dead is in 4e) to use to bring people back from the dead. Then again, we're 12th level, so we have the cash and a cleric who can cast raise dead.
500 gold to Raise a heroic character, 5,000 for paragon, and 50,000 for epic.

That's a lot by 4e standards.

Decoy Lockbox
2009-11-24, 03:35 PM
Death is permanent. I don't believe in raise dead spells except for very very extraordinary circumstances (basically, Jesus.

Thats how I like to run it. I find that resurrection spells cheapen the narrative idea of death.

However, I've lately been tinkering with the idea of letting players journey to the underworld, Greek mythology style, and compete with death at chess/swordsmanship/horseback riding/boxing/etc to free their friend's soul. They would cast the "raise dead" ritual, which would send them to the land of the dead (I don't really pay any attention to the 4e cosmology in my settings), where death would spin a giant wheel of fortune, determining what to do. This would be represented by a d20; a natural 1 means that the dead person's soul can only be released if someone else trades theirs for him, a natural 20 means that the person goes free (everybody can only get this result once), and the 2-19 rolls would represent various contests. Of course, how to adjudicate those contests would be a challenge. I mean, I could actually play chess with one of the players, but thats just metagaming. I guess it would be an int-based skill challenge or something.

The point is, I never liked the whole "blow some cash, here's your soul back!" thing that D&D did.

Krow
2009-11-24, 04:19 PM
In my group, death is death. Magic is ALWAYS toned down considerably: almost everything has a save + Magic itself is treated as a mysterious semi-unreliable force, one which corrupts its users (Though a wiz is toned down, its awesome to RP). The thing is, there should always be exceptions. While the Raise dead spell does work, it doesn't bring back the users 'right'. It could be the visions of heaven (or the pit) which could cause a character some brief psychological issues.

True Resurrection is something that should be quested for, something meaningful to all the characters involved. As pointed out, something like venturing into hell to reclaim a character's soul or pleading with the Gods themselves. The possibilities are endless!

As pointed by one of the earlier posters, actually doing Death a favor or besting him/her/it in a contest of sorts would be great too. Basically, it depends on the theme of your game & how it deals with Life. :smallcool:

Fuzzie Fuzz
2009-11-24, 08:47 PM
Hmm... well it seems that people are saying that death is death, and my players need to quit whining if they can't afford the 500gp. (Or even if they can, in some cases. :smallwink: )

And it's true, the only death so far was in a published module made for 5 characters instead of the 3 we had. (A poor decision on my part, but hey, we were all n00bs at the time. First adventure ever, and hey, it was free!) So it's not like I'm killing them off left and right.

But still, it seems like they PCs aren't very important to the plot if there's an endless cycle of characters. I try to weave the backstories into the plot. One of my PCs' had a dad who was killed by a wizard. So guess who one of the ultimate villains in the campaign is? The wizard. So say that character dies: why would the rest of them go on and finish killing the wizard for him? And if the entire original cast of a party dies, it's not really the same party at all, is it?

I do like the underworld idea, but if you never bothered to get 500 gil to raise somebody before, why would you go off on an epic quest now?

Anyways, thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-24, 09:03 PM
So say that character dies: why would the rest of them go on and finish killing the wizard for him?
You just called him an ultimate villain. That ought to be enough motivation. Villains tend to spread misery wherever they go - the old PCs may find their comfort zone intruded on by the wizard, or the new incoming PC could be another victim of the wizard, who is slowly growing more powerful...


And if the entire original cast of a party dies, it's not really the same party at all, is it?
Well, death in 4e (as mentioned) isn't awfully common, so this is a corner case that should likely be addressed on an individual basis.

bosssmiley
2009-11-25, 08:01 AM
And if the entire original cast of a party dies, it's not really the same party at all, is it?

"This is the axe of my forefathers. Over time the handle has sometimes needed replacing, and, on rare occasion, so has the blade. But it is still the axe of my forefathers."

I paraphrase, but I'm sure you get the idea. :smallwink:

Blacky the Blackball
2009-11-25, 08:42 AM
In my games, unless the party are very low level they can almost certainly afford to get a party member raised if they want; and I don't artificially limit their access to such spells.

On the other hand, characters only tend to get raised about half the time or less.

Partly because the game is about creating a story, and a good (heroic, ironic or just plain silly) death is a fitting end to a character's story and sometimes raising them afterwards seems to detract from that sense of going out on a high note.

And also because many characters have IC reasons for not wanting to come back - ranging from the player being a bit bored of the character and wanting to try something new to the character simply going on to a wonderful afterlife and not wanting to come back to the mundane world.

And very occasionally because a character has been unpopular enough with the rest of the party that they don't want to bother going and getting the character raised.

But in any of these cases, it's nearly always the choice of the players. It's a rare occurrence that a character dies in a situation where the other party members want to have them raised but are unable to recover enough of the body for it to be possible.

Guinea Anubis
2009-11-25, 09:42 AM
I have had this come up in a game I am playing with some new players that have never played D&D before. They are all boy scouts in are troop and under the age of 14 and 5 out of the 6 of them have died at lest 2 times one has died 5 times so far.

The DM went easy of them and let them get a free rez on the guys the first time they died. The next time they thought they would get another free rez so we made them rule up new guys. Each time they had to make a new guy they started to learn more and die less since they did not want to rule up a new guy anymore.

So I would say keep killing him and make him make a new guy every time untill he learns.