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taltamir
2009-11-24, 06:34 AM
I have a hunch that wizard/cleric or wizard/druid is the best possible gestalt.
Rather then the typical gish build of wizard/unarmed swordsage or /fighter /monk /barb etc...

Is my hunch right? am I completely off?

EDIT: Or any other combo of two full caster classes.

Chrono22
2009-11-24, 06:37 AM
I find that Monk/Druid is a pretty nice combination. Druid alternate form and spellcasting works well in tandem with monk class features. There are some points of overlap, but that can be avoided with alternate class features.
Adding on Vow of Poverty just makes the build incredible- but note this requires the DM to ignore druid alignment restrictions.

Wings of Peace
2009-11-24, 06:42 AM
What sources is this including?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-24, 06:42 AM
I'm a fan of:

Wizard/Psion

Ardent/Cleric (or druid)

Wizard/Archivist

Monk 2 - Ardent 18 / Crusader 5 / Ur Priest 10 / Ruby Knight Vindicator 5

That last one has Tashalatora goodness, 9/9 with up to 8th level maneuvers.

Thames
2009-11-24, 07:32 AM
I've always thought that a Wizard/Ranger is really noice; all high saves, full BAB, full spellcasting plus a little extra which includes healing, 2 pets (or 1 strong one if you can combine them), LOTSA skill points, and the ranged combat stlye meshes well with spellcasting (hand free for components).

wizuriel
2009-11-24, 08:57 AM
If looking for pure power I would second wizard // archivist

all those spells and needed just 1 stat.

AshDesert
2009-11-24, 09:06 AM
Wizard//Psion - full arcane casting, full manifesting, super SADness, cast with your hands, manifest with your Schism

Wizard//Factotum - Yeah, breaking the action economy is incredible for a Wizard

DragoonWraith
2009-11-24, 09:15 AM
Just echoing everyone else: Wizard//Psion, Wizard//Factotum, or Wizard//Archivist are almost certainly the most powerful combinations, barring specific builds of particular trickery.

Gnaeus
2009-11-24, 09:46 AM
Well, it is hard to say that any combo including wizards clerics and druids is bad per se, but I certainly don't think it is one of the best gestalt combos.

Don't get me wrong, it is far from the worst, but what you are really getting from your divine side there is a better base, not more casting.

A wizard alone has spells that are as good or arguably a tiny fraction better than the cleric or druid. After the first few levels, you aren't really likely to run out of spells/day on most days. What you want is a way to deliver the powerful spells that you already have, in a more effective manner, or ways to reduce the threats that monsters pose until you can waste them with a spell or escape.

Cleric gives good fort saves. Medium HD and BAB. A couple of basic defenses from domains (like travel domain immunity to grapple, or luck domain reroll).
Druid similarly gives good fort saves, medium HD and BAB. It gives you the ability to be a flying casting platform all adventuring day starting at level 4, long before the wizard can do it on his own.

Wizard/Barb is just bad. But Wizard/Fighter or Wizard/Monk isn't necessarily a "gish build". It can be of course, but what the wizard really wants from his fighter side isn't the ability to swing a sword, it is feats, like Improved Initiative, Blind Fight, Improved Critical (Ranged Touch), Precise Shot, Deflect Arrows, Improved grapple (just for escaping, unless there is polymorph). In other words, stuff that either enhances the spells he is casting, or gives him a free static defense to help him last until round 2.

Similarly, Wizard/Monk shouldn't be using unarmed strikes, it is just a wizard with a better AC, 2 better saves, slightly better attack +, faster movement for tactical positioning and a bunch of situational immunities.

Wiz/unarmed Swordsage or warblade is really where the love comes in. But it still isn't necessarily because you are planning on being a gish in the sense of a melee wizard, you are just a tougher, better wizard. You could be a very good Wiz/Unarmed swordsage and never actually make use of a strike type maneuver, just stances and swift/immediate action defenses and maneuvers.

Cleric and druid can do this too of course. You can take Persist Spell and burn through your off spell list by 8 in the morning for static buffs, or Quicken spell and fill your 5+ spell slots with swift actions. You are probably even going to come out a little bit better at very high levels (although you are very situationally vulnerable to Dispel Magics, AMF fields, magic immune enemies, that kind of thing, which the "gish wizard" builds don't need to fear nearly as much).

The best gestalts combine 3 things. Devastating power. Survivability. And ways to break the action economy. Wizard gives Devastating Power. Martial adepts do Survivability and Swift/Immediate effects better than clerics/Druids do through the low-mid levels where wizards are actually vulnerable. If you find yourself in a really high level gestalt game, the divine casters probably have a slight edge. Wizard/Factotum can probably beat any of them tho.

I don't like Wizard/Archivist. Not only do you have a really terrible class base, but Wiz and Archivist are both time and money intensive. For this combo to be top tier virtually requires access to magic marts and extensive downtime. Rather than fixing the weaknesses of the base class (Wizard), this combo makes them worse.

ErrantX
2009-11-24, 09:49 AM
I like Wizard//Artificer more than archivist, but both are valid gestalts.

Another fun one would be warblade//swordsage for the maneuver goodness.

-X

Fluffles
2009-11-24, 09:51 AM
I find that Monk/Druid is a pretty nice combination. Druid alternate form and spellcasting works well in tandem with monk class features. There are some points of overlap, but that can be avoided with alternate class features.
Adding on Vow of Poverty just makes the build incredible- but note this requires the DM to ignore druid alignment restrictions.

Go Neutral Good :smallwink:

And Cleric//Druid is total win. "Why yes, I can get double amounts of 9th level spells while being a bear. And get all of my DMM cheese to go along with it!"

EDIT: Swordsage // Warblade / Master of the Nine. Even more win there ;)

Hrm... maybe: Arcane Swordsage / Jade Pheonix Mage // Warblade / Master of the Nine

Ever more win there :smallbiggrin:

Flickerdart
2009-11-24, 09:54 AM
Go Neutral Good :smallwink:

And Cleric//Druid is total win. "Why yes, I can get double amounts of 9th level spells while being a bear. And get all of my DMM cheese to go along with it!"

EDIT: Swordsage // Warblade / Master of the Nine. Even more win there ;)

Hrm... maybe: Arcane Swordsage / Jade Pheonix Mage // Warblade / Master of the Nine

Ever more win there :smallbiggrin:
Monks must be (L)awful, no dice. Monk//Druids have to be Lawful Neutral or fall in one or both classes.

ex cathedra
2009-11-24, 09:56 AM
I have a hunch that wizard/cleric or wizard/druid is the best possible gestalt.
Rather then the typical gish build of wizard/unarmed swordsage or /fighter /monk /barb etc...

Is my hunch right? am I completely off?

EDIT: Or any other combo of two full caster classes.

You're...
wrong.

Wizard//Cleric or Druid isn't that good, considering that there's absolutely no stat synergy or action abuse. Psion//Wizard and Wizard//Factotum are both significantly better, especially the first. Schism, Celerity, Anticipatory Strike, and Quicken Spell/Power give you an absurd amount of actions (and therefore spells and powers) each round. Factotum gives terrific skill use, excellent int synergy, and eventually a lovely encounter-refreshed supply of standard actions.

Wizard//Cleric or Druid, though? You have no more actions than a normal wizard, which greatly neuters your potential. Not to mention that you have to spend more resources on attribute management, since you've decided to throw away the lovely SAD that your wizard originally had.

Temet Nosce
2009-11-24, 09:59 AM
Factotum/any active class (full casters, ToB classes, etc)

Factotum is just incredibly useful when gestalting.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-11-24, 10:58 AM
There really isn't any 'best' combination for gestalt. There are 'good' combos, but there are so many possibilities that no one character is necessarily better than all others. Furthermore, you can take the most powerful character build in the game and put it in the hands of an only moderately capable player, and it will turn out weaker than an only moderately capable character build in the hands of an extremely skilled player. A character's power is always limited by the player's capability.

As for double-caster builds, I'd actually prefer something like Beguiler//Archivist 5/ Divine Oracle 4/ Sacred Exorcist 1/ Contemplative 1/ Dweomerkeeper 9. With Versatile Spellcaster you can use Beguiler spell slots to spontaneously cast any spell you've made the Spellcraft check to learn as an Archivist, even if it's not in your prayerbook. You get plenty of useful skills (UMD!) and have a large enough list of spells to handle any situation, plus you get in on the CoDzilla tricks and a few plays out of the Cheater of Mystra's book. In the proper hands, it would be extremely difficult as a DM to give that character a challenge that he would find difficult.

Fishy
2009-11-24, 11:07 AM
Okay, here's the scoop. You only have so many encounters per day, and so many rounds per encounter, and so many actions per round. A Wizard//Druid is never going to run out of spell slots- which also means that he is never operating to his full potential. Meanwhile, the Monk//Druid gets a whole bunch of bonuses that don't require actions to use- they're not as good as spells, but he gets spells anyway, and is also benefiting from his Monk levels all the time. This is part of the reason Factotum//Wizard is so awesome.

In my opinion, the 'Best' gestalts are the ones where both halves combine to do something that neither side could on its own, like Duskblade//Archivist, or Dungeoncrasher Fighter//Master of the Unseen Hand, or Spirit Shaman//Psibond Agent.

Everyman
2009-11-24, 03:46 PM
I'm going to have to pitch in my two cents, and give a nod the aforementioned Wizard//Factotum. I've seen factotum's with high Intelligence scores do silly things...and adding in full spellcasting to the mix just makes my mind boggle. And as Gnaeus has noted, it breaks action economy. Mix in some quickened/swift spells and a little Celerity, and you'll be the only person at the table that could use ALL their class features in any given round.

From my own experience, anything that gives you more turns or actions in gestalt is absolute gold.

Milskidasith
2009-11-24, 03:51 PM
Why yes, I took Font of Inspiration as all of my feats as a wizard//Factotum. No, the lack of metamagic isn't hurting me. I have a few dozen extra standard actions per round.

Eldariel
2009-11-24, 03:52 PM
Archivist//Factotum, Wizard//Factotum and Artificer//Factotum are up there due to just how good a passive class Factotum is. Others like Druid//Cleric, Druid//Swordsage, Cleric//Swordsage, Wizard//Warblade, etc. are really good too, but when looking for the best, look at Factotum. Though Wizard//Psion, Archivist//Psion & Artificer//Psion have things going on for them too.

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5//Factotum 20 is very, very good, for example (but would be better with couple of levels of Tainted Scholar; I just hate the class for being completely unplayable).

Prime32
2009-11-24, 03:56 PM
Instead of Monk//Druid, try Incarnate//Druid or Totemist//Druid. Incarnum classes take the hit from VoP better than anything else, since they can put soulmelds on their vacant magic item slots. (Mind, a two-level monk dip on the incarnum side is still useful for evasion and Wis to AC)

When thinking up gestalt combos, you want to look for classes which rely on the same ability scores but have different chassis (HD, saves, etc).

Milskidasith
2009-11-24, 03:59 PM
Why would a druid take VoP? There are plenty of useful magic items, and it's only 3.5k extra for each of them to stay on in wildshape.

Prime32
2009-11-24, 04:01 PM
Why would a druid take VoP? There are plenty of useful magic items, and it's only 3.5k extra for each of them to stay on in wildshape.Because a VoP monk//druid was mentioned earlier. I agree, it's always better not to take VoP, but if you do you should minimise the damage.

mikeejimbo
2009-11-24, 04:04 PM
How about a Wizard//Wizard?

tonberrian
2009-11-24, 04:04 PM
I'm awful fond of Beguiler//Wizard/Rainbow Servant, personally. Spontaneous access to the entirety of the Cleric spell list is nothing to be scoffed at. Also the whole one man party schtick

Granted, though, Factotum would probably be better.

Noble Savant
2009-11-24, 04:09 PM
Personally, I've always been fond of Shadowcaster/Wizard in Gestalt. You can use both Noctumancer and Mystic Theurge to boost the classes. It makes for quite a lovely counter-spell build really, and it lets you act normally during your round for the most part.

It does help to use the Shadowcaster fix of course.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-24, 04:36 PM
I favor multiple casting class builds. No...running out of spell slots isn't the issue. Running out of 8 &9 th level slots is, and I like the idea of nuking endlessly at full power, with lots of variety.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132452&page=2

erikun
2009-11-24, 05:25 PM
Well, most of the good ones have been mentioned already. Needless to say, being as SAD as possible will get the most spell/powers/abilities out of the gestalt. I notice that Sorcerer//Favored Soul isn't mentioned yet. Throw in Bard for UMD fun.

Two of my favorites are Ranger//Wizard and Barbarian//Druid. The Ranger//Wizard has a lot of versatility between skills and spells, along with good HP, good saves, and good combat ability. The Barbarian//Druid makes the druid even harder to kill(!), while the druid can use the barbarian's abilities well in most forms. Plus, the two classes mix thematically well.

ranagrande
2009-11-24, 05:36 PM
Barbarian//Druid is really good.

If you want more craziness, consider a Half-Ogre Druid 18//Barbarian 4/Fighter 1/Hulking Hurler 3/War Hulk 10.

Eldariel
2009-11-24, 05:37 PM
Barbarian//Druid is really good.

If you want more craziness, consider a Half-Ogre Druid 18//Barbarian 4/Fighter 1/Hulking Hurler 3/War Hulk 10.

...doesn't Half-Ogre pretty much become obsolete with Wildshape?

SilveryCord
2009-11-24, 05:42 PM
The best gestault is definitely Wizard//Psion, with Wizard//Factotum as a close second. The factotum half falls behind because it doesn't get multiple actions soon enough to make up for the benefits of psion, and arcane dilletante, one of the better factotum features, becomes redundant. Schism, SAD, and practically eternal casting just puts Wizard//Psion over the top

Cespenar
2009-11-24, 05:43 PM
Marshal//Paladin with Force of Personality. You can get your Cha bonus to will saves three times!

:smalltongue:

ranagrande
2009-11-24, 05:52 PM
...doesn't Half-Ogre pretty much become obsolete with Wildshape?

Yeah pretty much, but it lets you meet the prereqs for Hulking Hurler and War Hulk.

Korivan
2009-11-24, 06:12 PM
A couple of things.

Cant combine, or use both familier and animal companion. Says so in the PHB.

Another, a wizard/cleric will have medium HD, 2 good sames, medium BAB, low skill point progression, 2 stat focuses. While you have a great amount of spells per day, in terms of optimisation, I'd say your only 1 step above wizard/sorcerer or cleric/favored soul. Your not overpowered in the least. When I think the BEST gestalt, I think a build that can handle many things solo. While W/C is a divine and arcane caster, remember, your a divine OR arcane caster, not both at the same...usually.

This is why I like cheesy things like wizard/factotum. Or builds that focus on 1 casting stat like Sorcerer/Favored Soul. Or even builds that may not focus on 1 stat, or gaining a dozen or so actions a round, but rather fit thematicaly...like a barbarion/druid. "FEEL NATURES RAGE B!%#.!!!

ravenkith
2009-11-24, 07:06 PM
I personally like to make sure I'm getting good saves across the board in gestalt - through gameplay, I've found that allowing a weak spot like that in such a high powered variant inevitably means it WILL get targeted. It's just natural.

A Paladin (Of Freedom)//Sorceror can be a good starting point - the charisma to saves really makes up for any weak saves, and with the right PRCs (abjurant champion) and dips (Fighter) or other base classes, can be pretty devastating as a gish.

However, something like Monk (Int, Sleeping Tiger Variants)//Psion or //Wizard gets high marks from me:

Good saves all around, a 3/4 bab (makes your rtas that much more dangerous), d8 hd, & improved init for free, plus int to AC, in addition to your regular caster goodness.

Expanded knowledge should definitely be (ab)used to pick up things like Schism and Fission...

I personally prefer to go Kineticist (Control Air, Energy Missile, Energy Current, Null Psionics Field, Reddopsi) and pick up, Schism, Fission and Metamorphosis as EKs depending on how crazy the game gets (each of these powers adds a layer of cheese sauce to the build).

Solicit Psicrystal is a must.

Of course, YMMV - it all depends on how willing your DM is to exploit your weaknesses....

Race: Human or Strongheart Halfling or better yet, Strongheart WATER halfling, if you can get away with it.

PROJECTED BUILD:

1. Monk 1//Psion 1
2. Monk 2//Psion 2
3. Monk 3//Psion 3
4. Monk 4//Psion 4
5. Monk 5//Psion 5
6. Monk 5/Psion +1 //Psion 5/Metamind 1
7. Monk 6/Psion +1 //Psion 5/Metamind 2
8. Monk 6/Psion +2//Psion 5/Metamind 3
9. Monk 7/Psion +2//Psion 5/Metamind 4
10. Monk 7/Psion +3//Psion 5/Metamind 5
11. Monk 8/Psion +3//Psion 5/Metamind 6
12. Monk 8/Psion +4//Psion 5/Metamind 7
13. Monk 9/Psion +4//Psion 5/Metamind 8
14. Monk 9/Psion +5//Psion 5/Metamind 9
15. Monk 10/ Psion +5//Psion 5/Metamind 10
16. Monk 11/ Psion +5//Psion 6/Metamind 10
17. Monk 12/ Psion +5//Psion 7/Metamind 10
18. Monk 12/ Psion +5/Swashbuckler 1//Psion 8/Metamind 10
19. Monk 12/ Psion +5/Swashbuckler 2//Psion 9/Metamind 10
20. Monk 12/ Psion +5/Swashbuckler 3//Psion 10/Metamind 10

FEATS:
1. Carmendine Monk (Character, CoV), Weapon Finesse (Monk, UA/PHB), Overchannel/Vulnerable (Flaw, UA), Talented/Shaky (Flaw, UA), Psicrystal Affinity (Psion, XPH), Lucky Start (Human, CSco)
2. Improved Initiative (Monk, UA/PHB)
3. Maximize Power (Character, XPH)
5. Psicrystal Containment (Psion, XPH)
6. Quicken Power (Character, XPH), Monastic Training - Psion (Monk, ECS)
9. Survivorís Luck (Character, CSco)
10. Psionic Meditation (Psion, XPH)
12. Tashalatora (Character, SoS)
15. Expanded Knowledge: Schism (Character, XPH)
18. Expanded Knowledge: Fission (Character, XPH)

Psion Casting: 343 + 80 pp
1st: Inertial Armor, Force Screen, Precognition (defensive), Precognition (Offensive), Prescience (Offensive), Catfall
2nd: Ego Whip, Sustenance, Tongues (Psionic), Energy Missile, Energy Stun, Concealing Amorpha
3rd: Body Adjustment, Energy Wall, Solicit Psicrystal, Dispel Psionics
4th: Schism (EK), Dimension Door (Psionic), Telekinetic Maneuver, Wall of Ectoplasm, Energy Adaptation
5th: Ectoplasmic Shambler, True Seeing (Psionic), Power Resistance
6th: Null Psionics Field, Overland Flight (Psionic), Temporal Acceleration
7th: Fission (EK), Reddopsi, Mindblank (Personal), Decerebrate, Ultrablast


I personally tend to avoid metamorphosis as it's a bit cheesy for me as written, and the 'errata' has never solved the problem to my satisfaction - usually by nerfing it a little too hard.

Please note that with this build you can nova pretty well: Metamind gives you free power points to play with, so popping an augmented temporal acceleration and then dropping a fission and a schism is entirely valid, in addition to putting up any other buffs you might want to.

Alternatively, if up against a heavy magic opponent, closing to melee and popping a null psionics field IS an option, allowing you to beat your opponent to death with your bare hands, if need be.

ken-do-nim
2009-11-24, 07:18 PM
I've always thought that a Wizard/Ranger is really noice; all high saves, full BAB, full spellcasting plus a little extra which includes healing, 2 pets (or 1 strong one if you can combine them), LOTSA skill points, and the ranged combat stlye meshes well with spellcasting (hand free for components).

This gets my vote. I can't think of 2 classes that synergize better.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-24, 07:19 PM
I personally like to make sure I'm getting good saves across the board in gestalt - through gameplay, I've found that allowing a weak spot like that in such a high powered variant inevitably means it WILL get targeted. It's just natural.

A Paladin (Of Freedom)//Sorceror can be a good starting point - the charisma to saves really makes up for any weak saves, and with the right PRCs (abjurant champion) and dips (Fighter) or other base classes, can be pretty devastating as a gish.

However, something like Monk (Int, Sleeping Tiger Variants)//Psion or //Wizard gets high marks from me:

Good saves all around, a 3/4 bab (makes your rtas that much more dangerous), d8 hd, & improved init for free, plus int to AC, in addition to your regular caster goodness.

Expanded knowledge should definitely be (ab)used to pick up things like Schism and Fission...

I personally prefer to go Kineticist (Control Air, Energy Missile, Energy Current, Null Psionics Field, Reddopsi) and pick up, Schism, Fission and Metamorphosis as EKs depending on how crazy the game gets (each of these powers adds a layer of cheese sauce to the build).

Solicit Psicrystal is a must.

Of course, YMMV - it all depends on how willing your DM is to exploit your weaknesses....

Race: Human or Strongheart Halfling or better yet, Strongheart WATER halfling, if you can get away with it.

PROJECTED BUILD:

1. Monk 1//Psion 1
2. Monk 2//Psion 2
3. Monk 3//Psion 3
4. Monk 4//Psion 4
5. Monk 5//Psion 5
6. Monk 5/Psion +1 //Psion 5/Metamind 1
7. Monk 6/Psion +1 //Psion 5/Metamind 2
8. Monk 6/Psion +2//Psion 5/Metamind 3
9. Monk 7/Psion +2//Psion 5/Metamind 4
10. Monk 7/Psion +3//Psion 5/Metamind 5
11. Monk 8/Psion +3//Psion 5/Metamind 6
12. Monk 8/Psion +4//Psion 5/Metamind 7
13. Monk 9/Psion +4//Psion 5/Metamind 8
14. Monk 9/Psion +5//Psion 5/Metamind 9
15. Monk 10/ Psion +5//Psion 5/Metamind 10
16. Monk 11/ Psion +5//Psion 6/Metamind 10
17. Monk 12/ Psion +5//Psion 7/Metamind 10
18. Monk 12/ Psion +5/Swashbuckler 1//Psion 8/Metamind 10
19. Monk 12/ Psion +5/Swashbuckler 2//Psion 9/Metamind 10
20. Monk 12/ Psion +5/Swashbuckler 3//Psion 10/Metamind 10

FEATS:
1. Carmendine Monk (Character, CoV), Weapon Finesse (Monk, UA/PHB), Overchannel/Vulnerable (Flaw, UA), Talented/Shaky (Flaw, UA), Psicrystal Affinity (Psion, XPH), Lucky Start (Human, CSco)
2. Improved Initiative (Monk, UA/PHB)
3. Maximize Power (Character, XPH)
5. Psicrystal Containment (Psion, XPH)
6. Quicken Power (Character, XPH), Monastic Training - Psion (Monk, ECS)
9. Survivorís Luck (Character, CSco)
10. Psionic Meditation (Psion, XPH)
12. Tashalatora (Character, SoS)
15. Expanded Knowledge: Schism (Character, XPH)
18. Expanded Knowledge: Fission (Character, XPH)

Psion Casting: 343 + 80 pp
1st: Inertial Armor, Force Screen, Precognition (defensive), Precognition (Offensive), Prescience (Offensive), Catfall
2nd: Ego Whip, Sustenance, Tongues (Psionic), Energy Missile, Energy Stun, Concealing Amorpha
3rd: Body Adjustment, Energy Wall, Solicit Psicrystal, Dispel Psionics
4th: Schism (EK), Dimension Door (Psionic), Telekinetic Maneuver, Wall of Ectoplasm, Energy Adaptation
5th: Ectoplasmic Shambler, True Seeing (Psionic), Power Resistance
6th: Null Psionics Field, Overland Flight (Psionic), Temporal Acceleration
7th: Fission (EK), Reddopsi, Mindblank (Personal), Decerebrate, Ultrablast


I personally tend to avoid metamorphosis as it's a bit cheesy for me as written, and the 'errata' has never solved the problem to my satisfaction - usually by nerfing it a little too hard.

Please note that with this build you can nova pretty well: Metamind gives you free power points to play with, so popping an augmented temporal acceleration and then dropping a fission and a schism is entirely valid, in addition to putting up any other buffs you might want to.

Alternatively, if up against a heavy magic opponent, closing to melee and popping a null psionics field IS an option, allowing you to beat your opponent to death with your bare hands, if need be.Why would you ever, ever take more than 2 levels in monk?! :aghast:

Extra saving throw boosts simply aren't worth it.

Carmendine swordsage 2 (if allowed)/factotum 18//wizard 5/PrC1/2/3 is considerably better.

taltamir
2009-11-24, 07:26 PM
A couple of things.

Cant combine, or use both familier and animal companion. Says so in the PHB.

they cannot be the same creature, but you can have a familiar and a different creature as an animal companion at the same time.


Well, most of the good ones have been mentioned already. Needless to say, being as SAD as possible will get the most spell/powers/abilities out of the gestalt. I notice that Sorcerer//Favored Soul isn't mentioned yet. Throw in Bard for UMD fun.

I thought of it mid way through catching up on the thread when SAD and MAD was mentioned. But I see you beat me to it.

Korivan
2009-11-24, 07:38 PM
they cannot be the same creature, but you can have a familiar and a different creature as an animal companion at the same time.


I thought of that too, I even made a thread about it. Lots of people showed me the page number that says you don't get to have a familiar and an animal companion. Though we did throw some ideas around to homebrew it.

taltamir
2009-11-24, 07:43 PM
I thought of that too, I even made a thread about it. Lots of people showed me the page number that says you don't get to have a familiar and an animal companion. Though we did throw some ideas around to homebrew it.

can you show me the page?

erikun
2009-11-24, 07:44 PM
There's a prestige class that mixes the Wizard's familiar with the Druid's animal companion - Arcane Heirophant, or something similar. It's a dual progression class, though, so may not be allowed. (I'm sure some DMs would allow it if you only took single progression from it, though.)

Also: Dual progression psionics can get quite crazy. The amount of PP from something like Psion//Psychic Rogue or Psychic Warrior//Ardent is impressive.


I thought of that too, I even made a thread about it. Lots of people showed me the page number that says you don't get to have a familiar and an animal companion. Though we did throw some ideas around to homebrew it.
I'd like to see too, if you could find it. I know a Wizard/Druid can't have one "companion" with benefits from both classes, but always assumed you could have two companions, each benefitting from one class.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-24, 07:45 PM
I don't know, but Arcane Heirophant(RotW) allows you to combine them.

ravenkith
2009-11-24, 08:19 PM
Why would you ever, ever take more than 2 levels in monk?! :aghast:


Oy vey. Hrm let me see: By going 6 levels in monk (Sleeping Tiger Variant, please remember), you gain :
IUS,
Evasion,
Still Mind,
Ki Strike (Magic)
Purity of Body

AND

3 Monk Bonus feats (Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, and most importantly MONASTIC TRAINING) for free.

Note: Monastic training can only be taken using a character feat slot or a monk feat slot.

For this alone it is worth taking six levels of monk.

Going to 12 in monk, gives you a 'get out of jail free card' in the form of abundant step, full monk damage and ac boosts (in combination with tashalatora and psion), the ability to heal yourself in an emergency, IMPROVED evasion, immunity to poisons, and greater flurry.

Remember, my whole concept revolves around removing weaknesses as much as possible.

STANDARD tactics for noncasters against casters is to close to melee and grapple/silence/amf to prevent spellcasting use (or else run).

This caster does not need verbal components, so silence automatically fails. In the event he gets grappled, he can dance out of it either with his 1/day abundant step or a power use, and if there's an AMF running, he can take the grapple and deal massive amounts of damage by flurrying against an unbuffed opponent, (nothing to sneeze at, what with INT to damage and a base 2d10, against an opponent who can only have a non-magic light weapon....).

If AMF is not running, the character has a multilayered defense that should prove highly effective, and has both close and long ranged options for dealing with opponents, as well as some basic battlefield control.

He's not reliant on a spellbook...in fact the only exploitable weakness he has is his need for rest - and even if he should run into a situation where he can't get any, for whatever reason, he is at least as capable a fighter as a monk of equivalent level. <shrug>

....and yes, it is a little paranoid...until it happens. :P

taltamir
2009-11-24, 08:31 PM
IUS - what is that?
Evasion - better sources for that
Still Mind - +2 vs mind effects? better just make yourself totally immune with a spell.
Ki Strike (Magic) - your unarmed attacks bypass damage reduction as if they were a magic weapon, they do not gain bonus damage or to hit... utterly pathetic even if you DID intend to attack things with your bare hands.
Purity of Body - disease immunity is almost nice. not that diseases are a major threat... what with long incubation times and spells like remove disease.
And there are better classes that give you that if you wanted it.

erikun
2009-11-24, 08:36 PM
IUS = Improved Unarmed Strike

Purity of Body = You never think it's much, until your wizard is seperated from the party cleric and infected with something nasty, like filth fever.

ravenkith
2009-11-24, 08:37 PM
IUS - what is that?
Evasion - better sources for that
Still Mind - +2 vs mind effects? better just make yourself totally immune with a spell.
Ki Strike (Magic) - your unarmed attacks bypass damage reduction as if they were a magic weapon, they do not gain bonus damage or to hit... utterly pathetic even if you DID intend to attack things with your bare hands.
Purity of Body - disease immunity is almost nice. not that diseases are a major threat... what with long incubation times and spells like remove disease.
And there are better classes that give you that if you wanted it.

The point is to remove exploitable weaknesses.

Arguably, the wizard/psion's greatest weakness is his fragility and general physical inability to stand up to melee combat and specific tactics that are commonly used against casters such as grapples, silences and AMFs.

Normally casters rely on equipment to offset these weaknesses...the caster I have created deals with all these challenges before you even buy your first item.

Filth Fever - is that the one that drains intelligence? Because I got hit with one that targeted fort and drained int, and was literally too stupid to seek help for a while... lol.

erikun
2009-11-24, 08:42 PM
Nope, Filth Fever is the low-level one that drains Dex and Con. Normally carried by rats and wererats, so it's one I've ran into more often. Mindfire drains Intelligence, although Demon Fever is arguably worse - 1d6 Con damage, and you need to make another save or one point is permanent.

Not as bad as Mummy Rot, but Purity of Body won't prevent that one.

olentu
2009-11-24, 08:42 PM
The point is to remove exploitable weaknesses.

Arguably, the wizard/psion's greatest weakness is his fragility and general physical inability to stand up to melee combat and specific tactics that are commonly used against casters such as grapples, silences and AMFs.

Normally casters rely on equipment to offset these weaknesses...the caster I have created deals with all these challenges before you even buy your first item.

Filth Fever - is that the one that drains intelligence? Because I got hit with one that targeted fort and drained int, and was literally too stupid to seek help for a while... lol.

With a psion side I would not thing that silence would be such a problem.

ravenkith
2009-11-24, 08:46 PM
With a psion side I would not thing that silence would be such a problem.

Yes, that's why I favor psion (kineticist) over wizard for the build...but wizard sometimes is just better for long term flexibility, depending on the campaign you are in...of course that introduces reliance on a spell book....which SUCKS. bad.

Depending, of course, on your DM.

Waste of time spending money on defending your spellbook: if the DM says it's gone, it's gone, and it doesn't matter how badass your defenses were.....

and YES, I've had that one happen to me to...hence my preference for psion.

olentu
2009-11-24, 08:51 PM
Yes, that's why I favor psion (kineticist) over wizard for the build...but wizard sometimes is just better for long term flexibility, depending on the campaign you are in...of course that introduces reliance on a spell book....which SUCKS. bad.

Depending, of course, on your DM.

Waste of time spending money on defending your spellbook: if the DM says it's gone, it's gone, and it doesn't matter how badass your defenses were.....

and YES, I've had that one happen to me to...hence my preference for psion.

Er my point being that a wizard//psion could switch to using psionics in an area of silence.

ravenkith
2009-11-24, 09:03 PM
Er my point being that a wizard//psion could switch to using psionics in an area of silence.

Unfortunately this introduces a lot more weaknesses than it removes: for one thing, as a caster//caster you have crap for HP (d4), crap for bab (.5 - and yes, it DOES matter, RTAs and touch attacks still need to hit, dammit), TWO weak saves (Fort and ref) and NO evasion or Improved evasion.

Just think of how many critters have aoe reflexes that are essentially save or dies for wizards by virtue of how much damage they put out.

Now add in all the gaze attacks and poisons that target fort. Yeah, that's what you are leaving yourself open to, in addition to all of the spells, powers and class abilities that can target these saves.

Oh, and hey! Psion//wizard gets grappled in an AMF and well, let's just say that you'd better have max ranks in escape artist, or it's GG and peace out.

(Imagine a dragon, with an AMF, grappling your ass. Yeah, you are totally boned. At least the monk MIGHT have a shot. Not likely, but any shot's better than none...)

olentu
2009-11-24, 09:54 PM
Unfortunately this introduces a lot more weaknesses than it removes: for one thing, as a caster//caster you have crap for HP (d4), crap for bab (.5 - and yes, it DOES matter, RTAs and touch attacks still need to hit, dammit), TWO weak saves (Fort and ref) and NO evasion or Improved evasion.

Just think of how many critters have aoe reflexes that are essentially save or dies for wizards by virtue of how much damage they put out.

Now add in all the gaze attacks and poisons that target fort. Yeah, that's what you are leaving yourself open to, in addition to all of the spells, powers and class abilities that can target these saves.

Oh, and hey! Psion//wizard gets grappled in an AMF and well, let's just say that you'd better have max ranks in escape artist, or it's GG and peace out.

(Imagine a dragon, with an AMF, grappling your ass. Yeah, you are totally boned. At least the monk MIGHT have a shot. Not likely, but any shot's better than none...)

Again the point being that unlike what was said a wizard//psion is somewhat less vulnerable to one of the listed specific methods for targeting a caster then a regular wizard would be as silence in particular is ineffective against the psion side.

I was making no comment on the other parts so if you were gathering such a statement then that was an incorrect assessment of my meaning. Thus while your other statements may or may not be reasonable I was making no comment on such things.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-11-24, 11:12 PM
Ooh, I like the sound of Artificer // Factotum. That would be pretty sweet.

I've always wanted to try making an Artificer // Artificer, though, with one side using the psionic Artificer variant from Magic of Eberron. You would get all of the normal item creation feats, and all of the psionic item creation feats. Wee! It would actually wind up being... not very good, though, since you have to invest in both UMD and UPD. Ideally, you would have two craft reserves as well. It would just be wacky fun to be able to make just about any item in the game.

ex cathedra
2009-11-25, 01:09 AM
Arguably, the wizard/psion's greatest weakness is his fragility and general physical inability to stand up to melee combat and specific tactics that are commonly used against casters such as grapples, silences and AMFs.


Wizard//Psions aren't fragile in the least. Most of them will have a CON score above 20 at mid levels and will run vigor+share pain for an easy and absurdly high amount of effective hp. This isn't even taking into account the wizard's ability to just not take damage, whether from stacking miss chances, whoring AC, not being seen, or from immediate action defenses.

Also, melee? Polymorph. Grab fast healing 22 and an attack routine of +25x12, while still pulling schismed manifesting.

By virtue of superior resistance, a con mod of +6 or higher, and various magic items, wizards//psions have quite a decent con score, to be fair.

A vindictive DM can ruin any classes day; yes, wizards rely on spellbooks. Generally, fighters rely on greatswords and spiked chains, and archers rely on bows. A spellbook is no more vulnerable than any of those, and wizards have excellent ways to trap and protect spellbooks.

There are ways to bypass an AMF. There are much easier ways to bypass a grapple.

Also, dragons? Really? Wizards kill those with third level spell slots. There are much more dangerous things about.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-25, 01:47 AM
Artificer/Warblade might be interesting, though I'm partial to Archivist/Rogue.

Scout/Warblade is fun, too, as is Scout/Warlock.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 03:16 AM
Dread Necromancer/Archivist.

Take Inquisitor/Contemplative to get immunity to compulsions and resistance to illusions, and turning.

Persist Spell will let you persist most any spell, as you have turn undead on both sides of the build.

Persist Buff yourself up, and you've removed most of your vulnerabilities.

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 08:28 AM
Wizard//Psions aren't fragile in the least. Most of them will have a CON score above 20 at mid levels and will run vigor+share pain for an easy and absurdly high amount of effective hp. This isn't even taking into account the wizard's ability to just not take damage, whether from stacking miss chances, whoring AC, not being seen, or from immediate action defenses. Also, melee? Polymorph. Grab fast healing 22 and an attack routine of +25x12, while still pulling schismed manifesting.


All of these need spells to function. If you are grappled or AMF'd, unless you specifically built a char that can cast in AMFs (I think there's a grand total of 1 prc that actually does it, which is, IIRC a pain to get into and faerun specific to boot), you are SOL. Yes, disjunction can take down AMFs, but you are a) giving up the tasty lewts and b) already level 17 before you can use it.



By virtue of superior resistance, a con mod of +6 or higher, and various magic items, wizards//psions have quite a decent con score, to be fair.


A high con score is nice, but NOT a win button. In addition, imagine how much better your fort save would be if you had a good base save to go with the high con...ESPECIALLY at lower levels....



A vindictive DM can ruin any classes day; yes, wizards rely on spellbooks. Generally, fighters rely on greatswords and spiked chains, and archers rely on bows. A spellbook is no more vulnerable than any of those, and wizards have excellent ways to trap and protect spellbooks.


Vindictive? who said anything about vindictive? I'm talking about smart DMs. DMs that play their NPCs and monsters as if they were living things, and not walking bags of xp waiting to get killed by the party.



There are ways to bypass an AMF. There are much easier ways to bypass a grapple.


Yes, but can you bypass an AMF while in a grapple without wasting a ton of skillpoints on a skill that is EXTREMELY situational?

Yes? How about without taking something like 16 levels in base and PRC?

Yeah, didn't think so.



Also, dragons? Really? Wizards kill those with third level spell slots. There are much more dangerous things about.

If you don't have respect for cr equivalent dragons, that's your DMs fault for not playing them right.

Not only are dragons insane melee beasts, after a certain pont they get to be spellcasters too, with all the access to spells that sorcerors get...and those nice metabreath feats everyone raves about? They can take those too.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 09:02 AM
Yes, but can you bypass an AMF while in a grapple without wasting a ton of skillpoints on a skill that is EXTREMELY situational?Yes. AMF grappling is a traditional weakness for ANY pc. Your point?

There are classes that can render you immune to AMF, as well.


If you don't have respect for cr equivalent dragons, that's your DMs fault for not playing them right.
Ah, the infamous, "you're playing the game wrong" argument.


Not only are dragons insane melee beasts, after a certain pont they get to be spellcasters too, with all the access to spells that sorcerors get...and those nice metabreath feats everyone raves about? They can take those too.
I can guarantee you I can 1 round most any standard MM dragon, regardless of what its feat and spell selection is, with a CR appropriate party. Even when the dragon is prebuffed.

Inquisition Domain Cleric Dispelling the dragon (who, even if he CAN cast, does so at a pathetic CL compared to its CR), followed by a reach spell shivering touch, for example.

Using Metabreath is a lot like using Simulacrum, Gaterape, and candles of invocation. It's inherently unbalanced and abusable.

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 09:13 AM
Yes. AMF grappling is a traditional weakness for ANY pc. Your point?

Not monks.



There are classes that can render you immune to AMF, as well.


Yes, I covered that, with the whole 16 levels of base + PRC. There's one that I know of that allows you to cast in an AMF, and it's The Cheater of Mystra (Devotee actually but cheater is so much more apt).

<scratches head> As I recall, it requires divine levels to qualify, so you're even further behind by the time you get going....



Ah, the infamous, "you're playing the game wrong" argument.

I can guarantee you I can 1 round most any standard MM dragon, regardless of what its feat and spell selection is, with a CR appropriate party. Even when the dragon is prebuffed.

Inquisition Domain Cleric Dispelling the dragon (who, even if he CAN cast, does so at a pathetic CL compared to its CR), followed by a reach spell shivering touch, for example.


In an actual game, where the DM was playing the dragon as if it were a living creature, you'd never see the dragon coming. 1 invisibility spell and 1 flyby attack and you've got trouble...shivering touch reached is only 60 feat.

Oh, and dispelling a dragon does what again? makes him go away for a bit, rebuff, and come back?

Yeah, that sounds like a great plan. Pretty sure he's got more buffs than you've got dispels. Just saying.

That's just one example...



Using Metabreath is a lot like using Simulacrum, Gaterape, and candles of invocation. It's inherently unbalanced and abusable.

Soooooo you're breaking out shivering touch, and your main argument against metabreath is 'it's too cheesy'?

Well, if your DM is kind enough to let you get away with that, you should thank him and buy him a present. No really. Go do it. Now. Don't type anymore, just go.

ex cathedra
2009-11-25, 09:39 AM
All of these need spells to function. If you are grappled or AMF'd, unless you specifically built a char that can cast in AMFs (I think there's a grand total of 1 prc that actually does it, which is, IIRC a pain to get into and faerun specific to boot), you are SOL. Yes, disjunction can take down AMFs, but you are a) giving up the tasty lewts and b) already level 17 before you can use it.

I don't see the point of this; if an AMF'd dragon is grappling you alone, then a wizard is only slightly less safe than any other class; it isn't a weakness of casters, it's the strength of a massive creature that you likely aren't meant to fight alone, who can out-fight any member of your party, and deprive them of any buffs or magical equipment that they might have. Monks can't kill grappling dragons in an AMF, either.



A high con score is nice, but NOT a win button. In addition, imagine how much better your fort save would be if you had a good base save to go with the high con...ESPECIALLY at lower levels....


Starting with a high fort save? that's a difference of +4 to +6, total, at mid levels. That's roughly 1/3 of your save assuming that it's fairly low; not to mention fun things like Headbands of Conscious Effort, etc.



Vindictive? who said anything about vindictive? I'm talking about smart DMs. DMs that play their NPCs and monsters as if they were living things, and not walking bags of xp waiting to get killed by the party.

It's kind of rude of a DM to sunder a wizard's spellbook or a ranger's bow without giving them a way out. It's rude to disjunct things; hence the colloquial nickname of 'game disjunction.' It's rude to abuse candles of invocation. There are many small social actions in most games of D&D that are meant to keep everyone playing happy; in many groups, this includes not irrevocably ruining a player's stuff.



If you don't have respect for cr equivalent dragons, that's your DMs fault for not playing them right.

Not only are dragons insane melee beasts, after a certain pont they get to be spellcasters too, with all the access to spells that sorcerors get...and those nice metabreath feats everyone raves about? They can take those too.

That's fair of you, insulting my DM's ability without ever meeting him, much less watching him. It isn't his fault that dragons are terribly written and rarely listed at an accurate CR. Similarly, it isn't his fault that they have touch ACs that are no higher than 9 and 10 dex regardless of age.



In an actual game, where the DM was playing the dragon as if it were a living creature, you'd never see the dragon coming. 1 invisibility spell and 1 flyby attack and you've got trouble...shivering touch reached is only 60 feat.

Yes, if your DM is the sort who has black dragons ambush you while you're resting in the middle of plains. How often are dragons found hunting PCs, as opposed to at the bottom of swamps or at the back of a large cave? Also, invisibility? You and I both know how easily that's negated.



Oh, and dispelling a dragon does what again? makes him go away for a bit, rebuff, and come back?

Yeah, that sounds like a great plan. Pretty sure he's got more buffs than you've got dispels. Just saying.

Yes, but a dedicated dispeller can dispel all of the dragons buffs with one targetted dispel. Because, you know, that's how dispel works when targetted.

Gnaeus
2009-11-25, 09:43 AM
Not monks.



I agree with your argument, Raven. But monks aren't great grapplers. They do get the free feat, but their medium BAB and MAD problems generally put them behind fighters and other full BAB classes.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 11:06 AM
Not monks.Compare a monk vs a CR appropriate Dragon in an AMF. Monks will have a problem. Grapple is a horrendously bad mechanic for PC's to play with. Monsters get the bonuses that make grapple good easier.


In an actual game, where the DM was playing the dragon as if it were a living creature, you'd never see the dragon coming. 1 invisibility spell and 1 flyby attack and you've got trouble...shivering touch reached is only 60 feat.It needs to know you're a threat. If you properly research a dragon (they're not random encounters, typically), you'll know when you're in its stomping grounds.

Further, dragons aren't fantastic at moving silent. Even invisible, he'd be HEARD.
Further, the dragon would become visible on the attack.
Further, the same tactics are available to the party. Blindsense is limited.
Further, Dragons are smart, not omniscient. They don't automatically know "PC group 1, zone 3, heading through the caravan route".


Oh, and dispelling a dragon does what again? makes him go away for a bit, rebuff, and come back?

Yeah, that sounds like a great plan. Pretty sure he's got more buffs than you've got dispels. Just saying.

That's just one example...Doubt it. Dragon casts 5 buffs. Cleric casts 1 dispel. 5 buffs go away.

Cleric flies off, rebuffs with 5 buffs. Wizard casts 1 dispel. 5 buffs go away.

The dragon has less spells per day to begin with, and it's compounded by the fact that one solid dispel can nuke MANY buffs.


Soooooo you're breaking out shivering touch, and your main argument against metabreath is 'it's too cheesy'?

Well, if your DM is kind enough to let you get away with that, you should thank him and buy him a present. No really. Go do it. Now. Don't type anymore, just go.
I've dealt with both. Meta is worse. A young adult red dragon with three metabreath feats can immolate hundreds of miles of countryside with a fire that deals 100 damage in 1 round, and 50 damage the next 50 rounds, to everything outside, and every building, plant, and dwelling, with a DC 29 reflex for half.

In other words, a CR 13 can reliably kill most everything within 50 miles of his lair. Once one gets a plane shift item? It can destroy practically everything in the ethereal plane (not immune to fire) with one breath.

Metabreath's ability to stack with itself breaks it on a scale that shivering touch can't approach. So don't give me that argument.

It would be just as possible to use Ego whip to do it as well, with a psion. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Or an appropriate orb spell with metamagic.

As for Flying off? Downdraft and a variety of other spells can mitigate a dragon's flight. Party members have access to flight as well.

Believe me. Dragons are good. But they're over CR'd for their power.

taltamir
2009-11-25, 04:03 PM
Yes. AMF grappling is a traditional weakness for ANY pc. Your point?

Not monks.

Grapple is based on BAB + Str.
Monks are 3/4 BAB and wisdom based.

Paladins, Rangers, Warriors, and Barbarians can all outgrapple a monk, naked and unarmed.

Monks are terrible grapplers. Their FLUFF would suggest they would be good at it, but their crunch makes them horrible.

Korivan
2009-11-25, 05:23 PM
There's a prestige class that mixes the Wizard's familiar with the Druid's animal companion - Arcane Heirophant, or something similar. It's a dual progression class, though, so may not be allowed. (I'm sure some DMs would allow it if you only took single progression from it, though.)

Also: Dual progression psionics can get quite crazy. The amount of PP from something like Psion//Psychic Rogue or Psychic Warrior//Ardent is impressive.


I'd like to see too, if you could find it. I know a Wizard/Druid can't have one "companion" with benefits from both classes, but always assumed you could have two companions, each benefitting from one class.

Players Handbook, page 52. in the familer section. By RAW, a male wizard could use his familier as an animal companion, but thats nit pickin WOTC's use of female/male nouns and such.

Akal Saris
2009-11-25, 05:43 PM
Just to add one that hasn't had much attention in this thread, I like wizard/warblade - good fort and will, a d12 HD, 4+int skills, and access to defensive maneuvers like iron heart surge and the concentration check ones, and also to utility maneuvers such as swift leap.

You could completely ignore your strength and still have 1-2 of the diamond mind maneuvers for melee attacks based on concentration checks when you're out of spells.

There's even a bit of int synergy like gaining your int bonus to reflex saves and to various attacks (attacks which you probably will not use often)

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 05:46 PM
Ok, now I'm carrying on like three conversations simultaneously. <shrug>.

The OP asked if, when playing in gestalt, it was best to take two casting classes on either side of the build.

I ventured the opinion that, in my experience, it is better to take a caster on one side, and use the other side to shore up the known weaknesses of casters.

I then offered a possible solution and a possible build that attempts to make sure that no matter what the situation, the character will not be utterly boned.

Strictly speaking, as a wizard//psion, you are no more powerful than a regular psion or a regular wizard - there are only so many actions you can take in one round even with a schism or a fission.

It is better to take a strong casting side, and then a class that gives good passive bonuses that can tie into your build with relative ease - in short, you should sacrifice as little as possible on your primary caster side in order to make your secondary side better.

That said:
Re: Monks and grapple + amf:

Monks do not care about AMFs. They are just as effective inside one as outside one. A monk in a grapple may not be able to escape, but at least he can flurry (note: in a grapple ac is much reduced, so you will most likely hit with all of your attacks). Against this a creature with dr, this is clearly less effective - but it's still more than a wizard//psion, for instance, would be capable of.

RE: Rudeness
Rude? It's rude to disjunct you...it's rude to sunder a weapon...it's rude to steal or destroy a spellbook....

Seriously? So when a barbarian can't read, do you think that's rude, too? What about when a druid isn't allowed to have too much metal, or a monk can't wear any armor at all?

These are built in weaknesses of the class: if you take the good, you take the bad, too. You should be aware of this right from character creation - after all, it's right there in black and white in the PHB.

One of the best plot hooks we ever had was to go and steal back the wizards spellbook from the local wererat thieves guild....and I was the wizard in question.

It's not rude - it's the rules of the game. If you take a class with a weakness, you have to expect the DM to use it against you.

Much like a paladin's alignment restriction, it's something the player has to find a way to deal with.

RE: Dragons:
As to you finding dragons or dragons finding you:

By the time you reach level 20, you are pretty damn famous, too.

Dragons are hundreds of years old, and they've got a few tricks up their sleeves.

...and lest we forget, dragons are spell casters. They get up every morning and cast divinations to see who's coming for supper - they have access to literally hundreds of thousands of gold pieces in treasure and magic items - and they are not stupid.

I can see we're not going to settle anything here. So I'll throw it out there: I'll take my great wyrm dragon, and you take your four adventurers....I'll even make it simple for you by saying It's core (dmg, phb, MM) and spell compendium only (and that only because I'm looking to give you a break).

I'll stat out my dragon how I want, based on the guidelines in the MM, and you stat your party out how you want (let's say 32 point buy).

I'll run a mini adventure for you, let's call it "Against the Dragon"... and I'll beat you like a red headed stepchild every damn time.

Snails
2009-11-25, 06:22 PM
In a serious rough and tumble gestalt campaign, there is something to be said for versatility and having no obvious weakness. Not having both a strong Will and Fort save is begging to be toyed with.

The double Wiz variants are charming for their potency under pleasant operating conditions, but their weaknesses are going to be obvious to the thickest BBEG.

I think an optimal combo will average or better than the PHB single classes at absolutely everything:
* Good Fort and Will. Better if also Good Reflex.
* 4+Int skill points or better.
* d8s minimum (d10s or d12s better).
* Spellcasting is a big plus, but a canny player might made do with UMD at higher levels
* Full BAB if there is any chance you will go into melee.

(I think it is worth giving the Monk/Druid a free pass on that last point, due to their remarkable melee synergies.)

I really like Wizard/Ranger, as you have all kinds of flexibility and no weaknesses. You could plausibly focus as spellcaster, archer, or melee. Wizard/Swashbuckler is promising as well.

Obviously there are a lot of very good combos that do not meet all of the above criteria. But hitting all or most of the above is within reach. It is worth considering what you are giving up.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 06:44 PM
The OP asked if, when playing in gestalt, it was best to take two casting classes on either side of the build.

I ventured the opinion that, in my experience, it is better to take a caster on one side, and use the other side to shore up the known weaknesses of casters.Exactly. Another caster class can do that well. Because different caster classes have different weaknesses.


I then offered a possible solution and a possible build that attempts to make sure that no matter what the situation, the character will not be utterly boned.Yes. In all situations, it's equally ineffective.


Strictly speaking, as a wizard//psion, you are no more powerful than a regular psion or a regular wizard - there are only so many actions you can take in one round even with a schism or a fission.Incorrect. Schism + Temporal Acceleration, Anticipatory Strike, and Synchronicity = Cast as much as you friggin want.


It is better to take a strong casting side, and then a class that gives good passive bonuses that can tie into your build with relative ease - in short, you should sacrifice as little as possible on your primary caster side in order to make your secondary side better.It would seem so, provided your assessment on action economy was correct...

Which it's not.


That said:
Re: Monks and grapple + amf:

Monks do not care about AMFs. They are just as effective inside one as outside one. A monk in a grapple may not be able to escape, but at least he can flurry (note: in a grapple ac is much reduced, so you will most likely hit with all of your attacks). Against this a creature with dr, this is clearly less effective - but it's still more than a wizard//psion, for instance, would be capable of.Just as effective. When they're not effective grapplers to begin with, parity in AMF is less important. More capable than a wizard at grappling in an AMF? Rather situational, first.
Second? Whether you're a monk, a barbarian, or a wizard, grappling is a BAD tactic.


RE: Rudeness
Rude? It's rude to disjunct you...it's rude to sunder a weapon...it's rude to steal or destroy a spellbook....

Seriously? So when a barbarian can't read, do you think that's rude, too? What about when a druid isn't allowed to have too much metal, or a monk can't wear any armor at all?They're called gentleman's agreements. Disjunction and several other spells are generally not used, as they end up hurting the party far worse than the enemies.


These are built in weaknesses of the class: if you take the good, you take the bad, too. You should be aware of this right from character creation - after all, it's right there in black and white in the PHB.Yes. However, MDJ? Destroys loot when used on enemies, weakening the party. It obliterates WBL which is crippling at mid levels and up. It's a zero sum game. That's why it's generally left out.


One of the best plot hooks we ever had was to go and steal back the wizards spellbook from the local wererat thieves guild....and I was the wizard in question. And there are still options to perform. However, that's an EXCEPTION, much like AMF grappling. If it happens more than twice in a character's life? Chances are, your DM's a jerk.


It's not rude - it's the rules of the game. If you take a class with a weakness, you have to expect the DM to use it against you.Yup. Just not every encounter. If you're a rogue, and suddenly every enemy has blindsight? The DM's a jerk.


Much like a paladin's alignment restriction, it's something the player has to find a way to deal with.But it shouldn't be a game of "eternally exploit the PC weakness". If it is, your dm's a jerk. If not, then it's situational, and why we have a PARTY. To cover weaknesses to specific roles.


RE: Dragons:
As to you finding dragons or dragons finding you:

By the time you reach level 20, you are pretty damn famous, too.However, you're not territorial.


Dragons are hundreds of years old, and they've got a few tricks up their sleeves.

...and lest we forget, dragons are spell casters. They get up every morning and cast divinations to see who's coming for supper - they have access to literally hundreds of thousands of gold pieces in treasure and magic items - and they are not stupid.RAW: The bulk of dragon hoards is nonmagical. All other things equal, they prefer items that have intrinsic value over magical. It's rather easy to shield from most divinations. In other words:

Dragons are tied to lairs. PC's are tied to nowhere.


I can see we're not going to settle anything here. So I'll throw it out there: I'll take my great wyrm dragon, and you take your four adventurers....I'll even make it simple for you by saying It's core (dmg, phb, MM) and spell compendium only (and that only because I'm looking to give you a break).

I'll stat out my dragon how I want, based on the guidelines in the MM, and you stat your party out how you want (let's say 32 point buy).

I'll run a mini adventure for you, let's call it "Against the Dragon"... and I'll beat you like a red headed stepchild every damn time.
Great wyrm? That's typically a CR above 20. Keep it to a CR 20 or less dragon, and I'll prove you wrong, in core, out of core, doesn't matter.

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 07:00 PM
Stuff

1. Temporal acceleration and schism don't play well with one another. Go check.

2. Parties are supposed to be able to handle encounters up to three levels higher than their CR according to the dmg. Go check.

3. Core & Spell Compendium and still talking trash? Those are some big brassy ones you got there, fella.

As far as lairs are concerned: yes, I know this...and guess what? THey get to prepare the ground ahead of time....The only thing stupider than fighting a dragon in it's lair is fighting a dragon in the open...IF the dragon is being played right.

...and weren't you the one saying the dragon's crs were way OVER estimated....?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 08:25 PM
1. Temporal acceleration and schism don't play well with one another. Go check.
At ML 17, with Cerebremancer:
1) Spell + Schism Power
2) Anticipatory Strike (Spell + Schism Temp Acceleration for 2 rounds)
TA1: Pay for Anticipatory Strike
TA2: Synchronicity for 3PP. (look ma, no schism)
3) Synchronicity Action: Spell/Power
4) Repeat 2-4 as desired until PP/Spells run out.

In other words, they don't need to. Trust me dude, I'm very, very experienced with psionics. I know what I'm talking about, when it comes to them.


2. Parties are supposed to be able to handle encounters up to three levels higher than their CR according to the dmg. Go check.Yup, and I can likely handle 6, provided epic spell isn't used. But saying you can win when you have a CR 23 critter vs an ECL 20 party doesn't sound like you're confident in your assertions.


3. Core & Spell Compendium and still talking trash? Those are some big brassy ones you got there, fella.Hey, I wasn't the one that said I'd win every time.


As far as lairs are concerned: yes, I know this...and guess what? THey get to prepare the ground ahead of time....The only thing stupider than fighting a dragon in it's lair is fighting a dragon in the open...IF the dragon is being played right.Again, with the "oh you're playing the game wrong".

Believe me, you're overestimating the dragons.

YES, dragons are powerful. Yes, they're smart. Yes, they're old.

A proper PC wizard/psion is much smarter. Ranks in knowledge will reveal information about most creatures. After that? It's not hard.


...and weren't you the one saying the dragon's crs were way OVER estimated....?
Weren't you the one saying they weren't? If your assertion is true, and you can beat me... how'd you put it? Ah yes, "like a red-headed stepchild, every single time"... IF that's the case, then it doesn't mesh with the insistence on +3CR.

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 08:43 PM
more stuff

Check the dmg again. An equivalent cr creature is only meant to waste a quarter of your resources (ie spells, hp, etc.), since it is assumed that you will have 3-4 encounters per day.

If you want a creature that is SUPPOSED to have a chance of beating you, you need to go at least 3 cr above the party ecl.

This is the way the rules actually frigging work, so don't make it sound like I'm trying to get an advantage here - I'm just looking for a level playing field...which again, even if I got what I'm asking for, you insist it wouldn't be.

So you have a choice - you can either play the dragon at equivalent cr and my win condition is killing 1 member of the 4 person party...or you can give me a cr 25 great wyrm and make me go for a total party wipe, or, you can chicken out.

Personally I hope you go for Option 1. It is so EASY to kill one character when you aren't dead set on being nice. <shrug>. TPKs are harder to arrange.

Not impossible, but harder.

Pick your poison.

sofawall
2009-11-25, 08:45 PM
I'll stat out my dragon how I want, based on the guidelines in the MM, and you stat your party out how you want (let's say 32 point buy).

You will be changing feats, skills and spells known, I assume?

Remember, as an NPC, dragons have reduced wealth with which to purchase gear.

EDIT: Is Average Party Level+3 considered overwhelming? I don't have my DMG on hand.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 08:46 PM
Check the dmg again. An equivalent cr creature is only meant to waste a quarter of your resources (ie spells, hp, etc.), since it is assumed that you will have 3-4 encounters per day.

If you want a creature that is SUPPOSED to have a chance of beating you, you need to go at least 3 cr above the party ecl.

This is the way the rules actually frigging work, so don't make it sound like I'm trying to get an advantage here - I'm just looking for a level playing field...which again, even if I got what I'm asking for, you insist it wouldn't be.

So you have a choice - you can either play the dragon at equivalent cr and my win condition is killing 1 member of the 4 person party...or you can give me a cr 25 great wyrm and make me go for a total party wipe, or, you can chicken out.

Personally I hope you go for Option 1. It is so EASY to kill one character when you aren't dead set on being nice. <shrug>. TPKs are harder to arrange.

Not impossible, but harder.

Pick your poison.

Very well. You get a CR 25 Great Wyrm.

Based on the bolded comment, I'll take a Level 22 party. This gives you a CR 3 above, per your comment.

...or do you need CR +5, when dragons are such a powerful creature? After all, if they're on the level you're implying, then "at least" is all you should need.

Or do you want CR 22 or so?

Would you like any gentleman's agreements? I tend to prefer, as a minimum, "no epic spells", as they tend to break down the game.

Chrono22
2009-11-25, 08:56 PM
If we're going to get that specific, then I suppose this build would work:

swordsage 1 / monk 19//druid 10 / planar shepherd 10

Pretty SAD. Tons of immunities, enough spell like abilities to kill a Tarasque, and some nice action economy exploits via planar shepherd and maneuvers.

Toss in the ability to turn into a solar w/wish at will... and 20th level cleric casting... and you have a pretty good gestalt build.

Playing a warforged would make the build pretty good too... those immunities could come through for it. Maybe tacking on Vow of Poverty as well... so you retain all your bonuses in wildshape.

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 09:02 PM
Very well. You get a CR 25 Great Wyrm.

Based on the bolded comment, I'll take a Level 22 party. This gives you a CR 3 above, per your comment.

...or do you need CR +5, when dragons are such a powerful creature? After all, if they're on the level you're implying, then "at least" is all you should need.

Or do you want CR 22 or so?

Would you like any gentleman's agreements? I tend to prefer, as a minimum, "no epic spells", as they tend to break down the game.

Dude, seriously. I told you what you could have, and even let you pick what I got to have...you honestly feel the need to rules lawyer any further than that?

Your options are:
A. Concede.
B. CR 20 Dragon - Win condition one party member killed.
C. CR 25 Dragon - Win condition TPK.

No matter what, you get 4 level 20 characters.

Core + Spell compendium.

If I give you a choice of a, b and c, you may not respond "Okay, but how about D?"

I mean christ, I'm already giving you 4 init rolls, 4 actions, and 4 sets of hp...what other advantages do you need to make you feel safe? :smallconfused:

sofawall
2009-11-25, 09:16 PM
Dude, seriously. I told you what you could have, and even let you pick what I got to have...you honestly feel the need to rules lawyer any further than that?

Your options are:
A. Concede.
B. CR 20 Dragon - Win condition one party member killed.
C. CR 25 Dragon - Win condition TPK.

No matter what, you get 4 level 20 characters.

Core + Spell compendium.

If I give you a choice of a, b and c, you may not respond "Okay, but how about D?"

I mean christ, I'm already giving you 4 init rolls, 4 actions, and 4 sets of hp...what other advantages do you need to make you feel safe? :smallconfused:

And you're getting how many extra HD, BAB and spells? Also, because I edited and I may not have been seen, is CR+3 considered "overwhelming" based on the DMG?

erikun
2009-11-25, 09:47 PM
Players Handbook, page 52. in the familer section. By RAW, a male wizard could use his familier as an animal companion, but thats nit pickin WOTC's use of female/male nouns and such.
Bwahahahaha!!!! :smallsmile: Okay, sorry. I know it's not your argument, but that is the shakiest line of reasoning I've seen. It basically boils down to "a male can do it because the book says she can not."

For that matter, I was pretty sure that the PHB explicitly stated that the male/female pronouns were to be used interchangably, and did not imply a specific sex to and one class. I'm not seeing it in the book, though. Perhaps I'm thinking of 3.0 PHB, or 3.5 DMG, or even another system entirely.

Thanks for looking it up, though.

Korivan
2009-11-25, 10:43 PM
Bwahahahaha!!!! :smallsmile: Okay, sorry. I know it's not your argument, but that is the shakiest line of reasoning I've seen. It basically boils down to "a male can do it because the book says she can not."

For that matter, I was pretty sure that the PHB explicitly stated that the male/female pronouns were to be used interchangably, and did not imply a specific sex to and one class. I'm not seeing it in the book, though. Perhaps I'm thinking of 3.0 PHB, or 3.5 DMG, or even another system entirely.

Thanks for looking it up, though.

Its very shaky. But I use that very line now when having rule arguments with my players. It boils down to RAI over RAW for me. To many arguments start from certain players looking up builds online that are based on "loopholes" like the one above.

But despite that, I see no reason the OP's Wizard/Druid couldn't have a Animal Companion AND a Familier. Doesn't seen to be any rules against that. In a high powered game where I want my players to [email protected]$$es, I think I'd let them combine the two into one. Though they wouldn't get to change the animal like a druid does (I think they can) after picking.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 10:59 PM
Dude, seriously. I told you what you could have, and even let you pick what I got to have...you honestly feel the need to rules lawyer any further than that?

Your options are:
A. Concede.
B. CR 20 Dragon - Win condition one party member killed.
C. CR 25 Dragon - Win condition TPK.

No matter what, you get 4 level 20 characters.

Core + Spell compendium.

If I give you a choice of a, b and c, you may not respond "Okay, but how about D?"

I mean christ, I'm already giving you 4 init rolls, 4 actions, and 4 sets of hp...what other advantages do you need to make you feel safe? :smallconfused:

I feel the need to test your theories. If you say "I can whup any party you set out like little girls, every time", and THEN say, "but I need CR +5"...

Tell you what. You're not the one dictating terms. Challenge terms need cooperative agreement.

You've stated that it needs to be CR +3 to be a threat. I'm willing to go up to CR +4, which, IIRC, is listed as a lethal encounter, with a high chance of TPK, according to the CR rules you cited earlier. Surely that's a "fair" set of terms.

You've stated that you want Core + SpC, to be nice. I reject your pro-offered kindness, in exhange for the above. I propose all legal WotC material, with the exception of Dragon Magazine.

In addition, I propose that we agree upon lines that won't be crossed. To this end, I propose that Epic spells and Pun-pun be disallowed for both sides (otherwise, I can easily have epic magic before level 20).

Feel free to suggest anything you think would not be conducive to the test, including things along the lines of "cheater of mystra AMF casting" and the like.

Your terms were 100% success by a dragon, under all conditions. Therefore, if any party, under any condition, can accomplish destroying the dragon, then you have been disproven.

Once terms are mutually agreed upon, I'll be happy to trounce the dragon you make. But don't assume you can set every term, and dictate every likelihood.

If you do that, I'll just have a sea of Solars, as far as the eye can see in every direction, all completely subservient to me, and all 100% core only. It's rather hard to effectively engage a party when every available square within a half mile of the party has a solar in it.

You're not talking to someone inexperienced in either 3.5 pvp, 3.5 playtesting, or Character Optimization. I can break core as easily as I can break splatbooks. Easier, in fact.

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 11:05 PM
<sigh>.

I'm taking this to PM. we are hijacking this thread.

but here's the ACTUAL quote.



RE: Dragons:
As to you finding dragons or dragons finding you:

By the time you reach level 20, you are pretty damn famous, too.

Dragons are hundreds of years old, and they've got a few tricks up their sleeves.

...and lest we forget, dragons are spell casters. They get up every morning and cast divinations to see who's coming for supper - they have access to literally hundreds of thousands of gold pieces in treasure and magic items - and they are not stupid.

I can see we're not going to settle anything here. So I'll throw it out there: I'll take my great wyrm dragon, and you take your four adventurers....I'll even make it simple for you by saying It's core (dmg, phb, MM) and spell compendium only (and that only because I'm looking to give you a break).

I'll stat out my dragon how I want, based on the guidelines in the MM, and you stat your party out how you want (let's say 32 point buy).

I'll run a mini adventure for you, let's call it "Against the Dragon"... and I'll beat you like a red headed stepchild every damn time.

ex cathedra
2009-11-25, 11:10 PM
Why not a new thread in this forum or OoC Games? I'm sure that a lot of people are interested.

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 11:20 PM
Why not a new thread in this forum or OoC Games? I'm sure that a lot of people are interested.

Wasn't aware that we had a fanbase. :smallredface:

See spot run here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7384456#post7384456).

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 11:55 PM
Back to the original question, it depends on what type of wizard. If you use the Agnagakok (Nature Wizard from Dragon Magazine), then druid is your cup o' tea, considering Natural Spell + Wizard Spell list = carnage. However, any other and I'd suggest the wizard being a summon-based and gestalt with a cloistered cleric. This way, you obtain Bardic Knowledge with Knowledge Arcane, and thus a better spellcraft check, meaning better chance on bigger monsters. There's also a prestige class to that from Exalted deeds that allows you to summon fiends for good. I cannot remember the name of the class, but I'd do that.

As for the Natural Mystic, I'd forgo the Wizard all together, gestalt Cleric and Druid, follow a Nature Diety, take War Domain, Focus on Nat. Weapons, and voila. Cleric buffs+Wildshape

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 12:03 AM
If I was gonna gestalt a druid, I'd go Druid/Ardent.

Wis focus, wildshaping, powerful saves, powerful psionics, and full divine casting.

mabriss lethe
2009-11-26, 02:57 AM
A good gestalt option that nobody mentioned. Binders. They add a lot as a passive half to nearly any class. Binders have a wide array of abilities at their disposal. there's something for melee characters, skill monkeys, spellcasters..you name it. If you focus on passive constant abilites, you really never have to worry about the MAD/SAD issue. Saves and hit die are decent, so it makes a nice boost for fragile casters.

Binder probably isn't as good as factotum, if for no other reason than their ability to break action economy. But it's solid and backs up every single other class.

Hm. I wonder what a Factotum//Binder might look like. Nothing pretty, I assure you.

Nerdanel
2009-11-26, 05:58 AM
What if we split the issue?

Wizard 3/Cerebremancer 17//Psion 3/Monk 2/Ranger 15

Full casting in Wizard AND Psion plus eventual Improved Evasion, high saves, fairly high BAB for those ranged touch attacks, decent hitpoints, and a good amount of skill points on higher levels.

Stycotl
2009-11-26, 11:26 AM
What if we split the issue?

Wizard 3/Cerebremancer 17//Psion 3/Monk 2/Ranger 15

Full casting in Wizard AND Psion plus eventual Improved Evasion, high saves, fairly high BAB for those ranged touch attacks, decent hitpoints, and a good amount of skill points on higher levels.

can't generally go more than 1o levels in a 10-level prc before epic.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 11:32 AM
can't generally go more than 1o levels in a 10-level prc before epic.

Not to mention that Dual progression is frowned on in Gestalt.

However:

Wizard 1 / Ardent 2 / Cerebremancer 10/ Wizard +6 / Ardent +1

That's a non gestalt that gets 9/9 by 20. If you want to add in fast progression PrC's, you can do more.

Gestalt?

Wizard 2 / Master Specialist 10 / Iot7V 7/Archmage 1
with
Psion 20

is fun. Go Abjurer for the wizard, and you'll have a lot of options.

For melee? LA is the way to go.

Ghost 5 / Evolved Undead x 15
with
Paladin of X 14 / Paladin PRC x6 (pref one with Paladin seperate casting list)

Use Holy Warrior variant from CC (noncasting, bonus feats - Take extra turning and extra smiting), the Pally charger variant (trade mount for bonus charge damage), the Awesome Smiting feat, and Shield Ward (to get shield to touch AC). Divine Shield will net you a huge bonus to AC, you'll get Cha to saves twice, slippers of battledancing and Divine might get you Cha to attack and damage.

It's easy to get a battle AC in the 70-80 range, Saves in the +40-50 range, ability to heal yourself, solid attacks (+40 to hit or so, for 60-100 damage).

Not invincible, but fun and strong.