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View Full Version : When *IS* the ToH level appropriate?



root9125
2009-11-24, 06:14 PM
I have a level 10 party that thinks like no other. They want a challenge. There are 6 of them, and one of them has permanency Detect Magic, and another has Raise Dead, and several scrolls thereof should he die.

Under what circumstance could they take the ToH and make it a net gain (wealth / XP)?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-24, 06:16 PM
They can't. The ToH has no loot. You make it out with, IIRC, less than 1000 GP.

jokey665
2009-11-24, 06:17 PM
They can't. The ToH has no loot. You make it out with, IIRC, less than 1000 GP.

I'm pretty sure there's a bit of loot strewn about, at least in the 3.5 update.

tyckspoon
2009-11-24, 06:18 PM
They can't. The ToH has no loot. You make it out with, IIRC, less than 1000 GP.

Think more Greyhawk. The Tomb of Horrors has tons of loot- you just have to solve it first, so you can work out how to disable the defensive measures. Then you can loot it. Take the statuary. Take the doors. Take any interesting decorations on the walls. Pawn it all.

awa
2009-11-24, 06:20 PM
if i recall correctly tomb of horrors has ways to kill you that raise dead cant solve.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-24, 06:21 PM
Think more Greyhawk. The Tomb of Horrors has tons of loot- you just have to solve it first, so you can work out how to disable the defensive measures. Then you can loot it. Take the statuary. Take the doors. Take any interesting decorations on the walls. Pawn it all.The only non-stone door is Admantine. Take it out, then the door reverts to lead. The statues try to kill you. The decorations on the walls are paint. There is no loot.

KillianHawkeye
2009-11-24, 06:23 PM
Isn't there a big treasure room at the end?

Frosty
2009-11-24, 06:26 PM
The tomb of horrors itself is loot. If they can find a way to subvert the original programming and map out ALL of the traps, they can then rent it out as the ultimate Safe-keeping storage place or sellit for that purpose. It might take them a while, but safety of this magnitutde is hard to come by.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-11-24, 06:26 PM
A few scrolls and a small amount of money IIRC, although if you can kill the demilich , then you've either 8 1000GP gems, or 8 10000 GP gems.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-24, 06:28 PM
The tomb of horrors itself is loot. If they can find a way to subvert the original programming and map out ALL of the traps, they can then rent it out as the ultimate Safe-keeping storage place or sellit for that purpose. It might take them a while, but safety of this magnitutde is hard to come by.The Devils in charge of rebuilding it may take exception to that.

KillianHawkeye
2009-11-24, 06:29 PM
Also, I disagree with your quote about Evil.

How nice for you. :smallannoyed:

kc0bbq
2009-11-24, 06:36 PM
Isn't there a big treasure room at the end?Sort of. If you find yourself in the room with the treasures (which are basicly the possessions of those who died in a lot of the traps, you are just going to be adding your loot to the pile. The place was created because the BBEG is a mondo jerk. The whole point was to give adventurers their just reward. Horrible, unpredictable, unstoppable, inevitable death.

It was the epitome of Gygaxian tournament module in the original incarnation. If you never played in an old-timey tournament module you just need to know that survival was never the goal.

I can't see it being anything like the original with all the cheese available in 3.5e. Maybe I'll grab it and run it for nostalgia's sake. A few of my regular group remember it fondly.

Frosty
2009-11-24, 06:43 PM
The Devils in charge of rebuilding it may take exception to that.

Kill them. Then you get exp AND loot. You're an adventurer, killing devils are kinda par for the course, and arguably easier than navigating the ToH in the traditional sense.

Starscream
2009-11-24, 06:47 PM
1) Find a way to capture Acererak's skull without dying
2) Take it to one of the afterlife planes
3) Set up a booth with a sign: "Got killed in Acererak's Tomb? Revenge here!"
4) Charge a hefty fee to hit the skull with sticks, throw rocks at it, cover it with lantern oil and light it on fire, and today's special: jump up and down on it while screaming "That green devil statue isn't do #$%& funny now, is it?!"
5) Profit

Irreverent Fool
2009-11-24, 06:52 PM
Under what circumstance could they take the ToH and make it a net gain (wealth / XP)?

Read the adventure first.

I really don't see any other way.

obnoxious
sig

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-24, 07:11 PM
How nice for you. :smallannoyed:

lol :smallbiggrin:

The ToH is level appropriate when the game has been broken. This may be anywhere from first to 150th level. It can be used in other scenarios, but it's very rarely an "appropriate challenge" in the way CR measures.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-24, 11:20 PM
There is a way to take out the tomb, and most of it requires throwing henchmen at the problems and recording the results.

Then throwing more henchmen in.

Eventually you'll have so many bodies that the traps won't have room to work properly.

Except the statue's mouth. It kind of has its own thing going on.

As far as Acerak? Well, that's when you wrap yourself in an AMF, get total cover and concealment via, say, a tower shield, and stuff the bugger in a potato sack. Then mail plane shift it to Mount Celestia, care of Bahamut.

Alternately, take elemental summoning and acid splash reserve feats, set off all the traps, and dissolve the ones that reset.

mikeejimbo
2009-11-24, 11:25 PM
So, where can I purchase a copy of Tomb of Horrors, anyway?

Narazil
2009-11-24, 11:36 PM
So, where can I purchase a copy of Tomb of Horrors, anyway?
I think it's legally obtainable for free on the internet, I'm not sure though.

mikeejimbo
2009-11-24, 11:38 PM
I think it's legally obtainable for free on the internet, I'm not sure though.

Oh, you're right! It's right on the Wizards of the Coast website. Heh, should have checked. I thought maybe it wasn't in print anymore.

I mean, I suppose the older ones aren't, but I think the 3.5 will do for what I want to do with it.

sambo.
2009-11-24, 11:57 PM
It was the epitome of Gygaxian tournament module in the original incarnation. If you never played in an old-timey tournament module you just need to know that survival was never the goal.

bingo. often the goal was either to survive the longest, or to die in the most hilarious fashion possible.

i recall my team won the Runemaster tournament at one convention without drawing a sword in anger. you got points for how much trreasure you collected. the doors of the dungeon wer massive wooden things with huge iron fastenings. in a low-metal world where Iron was unbelieveably valuable.

we just took the doors off the dungeon and headed back to town. none of the other teams thought to do this....

Darrin
2009-11-25, 12:58 AM
A few scrolls and a small amount of money IIRC, although if you can kill the demilich , then you've either 8 1000GP gems, or 8 10000 GP gems.

Actually, the original module had a pretty decent haul. About 160,000 GP in gems, 12 potions, 6 scrolls, 6 magic items, and 4 magic weapons (one of those fairly powerful, the other three cursed). The gems in the skull were worth about another 80,000 XP. And remember, this is back when the treasure you collected factored heavily into how much XP you got. This was on top of 100,000 XP for destroying Acererak.

The 3.5 update has the same basic treasure as far as the items go, but the value of the gems has been scaled down to about 10%. Not sure what the thinking was there, although the recommended levels were dropped down to "Four to Six 9th-Level Characters".

Really, the character levels don't matter all that much. The dungeon is designed to tear through character sheets like kleenex, regardless of levels. People keep tossing around the adjective "Gygaxian", and there's some truth to that, but looking back on it now... I don't think Gygax's intent was to make it out to be such a brutally unfair screwjob, but simply that he was just trying to really *challenge* some extremely clever players (while maybe possibly punishing some players who were a little too clever) and create some truly memorable experiences. But good lord, what that man could do with a color wheel...

icefractal
2009-11-25, 01:10 AM
No treasure? It has a Sphere of Annihilation! And even a 1st level character can tow one of those around, although I wouldn't recommend trying to use it against Acerak.

Optimystik
2009-11-25, 01:23 AM
Jack_Smith's Disassembler Druid and Trapsmith Wizard were both quite capable of taking out the tomb. I'm too lazy to look up his post, but the strategy seemed quite solid.

arguskos
2009-11-25, 02:39 AM
Really random note about the skull at the end of the dungeon:
It's not actually Acererak, it's a construct designed to look and act like adventurers might expect him to be. If you do something stupid, like send it to Celestia, the cult that worships him might get tetchy about such actions. Also, depending on your cosmology/DM, you might invoke his personal wrath, depending on if he destroyed himself yet or not. Just sayin'.

Also, isn't the 3.5 Tomb considered a bad joke? There's so many ways to devastate it without altering the nature of the Tomb something fierce. I mean, Summon Elemental just wrecks the damn thing (save for a few really cruel late-dungeon tricks).