4th edition Tomb of Horrors

[Eon]

I have been reading some of the stories experiences people have had in the Tomb of Horrors and was wondering if there is a copy for 4th edition.
i want to know because i am starting a game of 4th in Spring and i want to be prepared... mwahaha

[Myshlaevsky]

I don't believe there is. The high lethality of ToH doesn't gel well with the apparent design ethos of 4e. I would recommend running it in the original or 3.5e versions, to be honest. I think it would be an underwhelming experience as a fourth edition game.

[BudgetDM]

I don't believe there is.

Um... About that. (http://www.amazon.com/Tomb-Horrors-4th-Super-Adventure/dp/0786954914/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259125611&sr=8-1)

[Mando Knight]

Um... About that. (http://www.amazon.com/Tomb-Horrors-4th-Super-Adventure/dp/0786954914/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259125611&sr=8-1)

Insisting for pics or it isn't real? Check this one (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/253850000) out.

Now, see, this releases on June 20th next year, so don't get your party much higher than 10th level before then if you want them to have an "authentic" Tomb of Horrors experience.

[Myshlaevsky]

Um... About that. (http://www.amazon.com/Tomb-Horrors-4th-Super-Adventure/dp/0786954914/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259125611&sr=8-1)

Well, what? That's not something that's currently in existence, is it?

Regardless, thanks for bringing it to my attention. I'm somewhat surprised that it's being planned but it should be interesting to see what it's like.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

This is bad. Even the 3.5 version of the tomb lost most of the flavor of the original, due to the 'skill for everything' and 'there must be some chance of success' design. Add in 4.0's 'players shouldn't die' and you have something that just isn't Gygaxian enough.

[Optimystik]

This is bad. Even the 3.5 version of the tomb lost most of the flavor of the original, due to the 'skill for everything' and 'there must be some chance of success' design. Add in 4.0's 'players shouldn't die' and you have something that just isn't Gygaxian enough.

Yes, I'm sure the prospect of a new generation of players having fun with his creation has Gygax rolling in his grave and spewing obscenities.

[pnewman]

Add in 4.0's 'players shouldn't die' and you have something that just isn't Gygaxian enough.

_Players_ shouldn't die in any RPG. [1] I think you mean to say that 4.0 is a _characters_ shouldn't die game.

[1] Well, not unless gladiatorial combat counts as LARPing....

[tcrudisi]

...Add in 4.0's 'players shouldn't die' and you have something that just isn't Gygaxian enough.

I know a player that would disagree with you. He's on his 8th character and he's only level 6. He keeps dieing, and dieing... and we bring him back to life and back to life, and then get tired of bringing that character back to life, so he does another one. It's not that the rest of his party aren't trying to keep him alive... he just doesn't know how to survive. One session, he died in the first fight of the day and we said, "No, we aren't bringing this character back to life a third time. He's used up enough of the party resources. Bring in a new toon." He finishes creating the character just in time for the final battle... and he dies in it.

Of course, he's definitely the exception and not the norm.

[Kurald Galain]

I know a player that would disagree with you. He's on his 8th character and he's only level 6. He keeps dieing, and dieing...
...how?

It is statistically highly unlikely for any character to die before combat actually ends. Do you have a leader in your party? Anyone trained in Heal? Do you carry potions?


Anyway I kind of fail to see how TOH would work in 4E, unless they're replacing all instances of "your character dies messsily" with "your character takes -2 on all defenses, save ends" :smallbiggrin:

[dsmiles]

Insisting for pics or it isn't real? Check this one (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/253850000) out.

Now, see, this releases on June 20th next year, so don't get your party much higher than 10th level before then if you want them to have an "authentic" Tomb of Horrors experience.

You, my friend, have just brightened my day...MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA....
...did I say that out loud?

[Guinea Anubis]

I wonder if its going to be a convert of the first ToH or a convert of the 3.5 ToH that was not as good. Or even an all new one for 4e.

O well I will keep plugging away at my convertion of the original ToH (I own a copy of it :smallbiggrin: ) to 4e just in case I dont like this one.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Anyway I kind of fail to see how TOH would work in 4E, unless they're replacing all instances of "your character dies messsily" with "your character takes -2 on all defenses, save ends" :smallbiggrin:

Are you kidding? -2 to all defenses? No, they'd definitely go with something stronger:

"A character reaching his hand into the demon's mouth is utterly obliterated (save ends)."

[Tengu_temp]

Are you kidding? -2 to all defenses? No, they'd definitely go with something stronger:

"A character reaching his hand into the demon's mouth is utterly obliterated (save ends)."

So it's an insta-death trap, but you have a roughly 50% change to spontaneously rematerialize, as good as new, every 6 seconds?


Yes, I'm sure the prospect of a new generation of players having fun with his creation has Gygax rolling in his grave and spewing obscenities.

The problem is, "Gygaxian" does not mean "a game ran by Gary Gygax". His games probably weren't even very Gygaxian anymore during the XXI century.

[Optimystik]

The problem is, "Gygaxian" does not mean "a game ran by Gary Gygax". His games probably weren't even very Gygaxian anymore during the XXI century.

No kidding! And here I thought he'd have the free time to run lots of games nowadays.

[Oslecamo]

So it's an insta-death trap, but you have a roughly 50% change to spontaneously rematerialize, as good as new, every 6 seconds?


Just like broken weapons mend themselves after batle in 4e and stuff. It's not even a flesh wound!

[Tengu_temp]

No kidding! And here I thought he'd have the free time to run lots of games nowadays.

Well, he has a lot of free time without all those pesky physiological needs getting into the way...

Seriously though, I wrote it wrong. I meant "a game ran in Gary Gygax's style". And while his early games were probably very Gygaxian, I'm pretty sure his style evolved over time and his later games weren't.


Just like broken weapons mend themselves after batle in 4e and stuff. It's not even a flesh wound!

What? Totally not like in WoW, I'm disappointed.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Everytime someone mentions 4e ToH or 4e Dark Sun, it is generally agreed that 4e doesn't have enough lethality to represent the setting. But...I don't buy it. 4e Core might be a very heroic fantasy game in which characters are much more resilient and less prone to permanent effects than earlier editions, but I really don't see why that necessarily has to hold, especially in contexts where lethality is exactly what's expected.

[Kurald Galain]

4e Core might be a very heroic fantasy game in which characters are much more resilient and less prone to permanent effects than earlier editions, but I really don't see why that necessarily has to hold, especially in contexts where lethality is exactly what's expected.
Well, to have a more gritty and lethal game, you would have to remove several core mechanics, such as bad conditions that last ~15 seconds, and the free heal every night, and the Remove Condition ritual. You'd also have to increase the actual effect of several diseases, and in particular of starvation and dehydration, and would have to agree on some means of equipment loss without an automatic refund. It gets pretty substantial because being gritty violates a fundamental design principle.

This, incidentally, is why you shouldn't use d20 leveling mechanics in a Call of Chtulhu game.

[BudgetDM]

I sadly don't remember where I heard this so I won't blame you for being skeptical, but I remember hearing that 4e ToH would be intentionally lacking 4e's usual safety nets.

[ashmanonar]

No kidding! And here I thought he'd have the free time to run lots of games nowadays.

Well, he's still busy with this game. (http://www.xkcd.com/393/)

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, to have a more gritty and lethal game, you would have to remove several core mechanics, such as bad conditions that last ~15 seconds, and the free heal every night, and the Remove Condition ritual. You'd also have to increase the actual effect of several diseases, and in particular of starvation and dehydration, and would have to agree on some means of equipment loss without an automatic refund. It gets pretty substantial because being gritty violates a fundamental design principle.

This, incidentally, is why you shouldn't use d20 leveling mechanics in a Call of Chtulhu game.

You mean remove affliction? The Ritual that carries a risk of *killing the target outright* or more likely inflicting quite a lot of damage? Sure, it'll probably only turn up on unoptimised characters or on bad rolls, but it's hardly a safe get-out-of-jail card, in my eyes. You also can't get it before level 8, so practically at paragon.

Also, given that starvation and dehydration directly take away healing surges, I'm not sure I see this problem. Also, I'm pretty sure a broken item is broken. Sure, if it's a swordmage's bonded weapon, they can repair it in an hour, otherwise they need to go to the normal kind of lengths, ie; Whatever the DM requires.

Bad conditions lasting 15 seconds is perfectly fine, because they are modelling in-combat effects essentially. Any longer lasting things would be much more likely to follow the disease track mechanic.

I would, admittedly, be quite happy to see a big old bag of diseases listed in the back of the Dark Sun campaign book, though. :)

As for the free nightly heal, I don't see that as a problem for grittyness. If we're talking slowly-dehydrating to death, they're waking up with less surges each day, a disease or curse could easily inflict similar tolls, and it's trivially easy to drop a character's HP in an encounter or two. If they have no surges, pretty much means no healing of any kind, magical or otherwise.

*shrug*

Just because you've mostly played in generally fluffy and safe games doesn't mean the system can't pile on the misery if the dm uses the right bits of it.

[Kurald Galain]

You mean remove affliction? The Ritual that carries a risk of *killing the target outright* or more likely inflicting quite a lot of damage?
Yes, that one. Because it looks dangerous on paper, but in practice it won't kill anyone because you have to roll less than zero to do that (and your teammates can assist, and so forth).



Also, given that starvation and dehydration directly take away healing surges, I'm not sure I see this problem.
The problem is that you get a lot of "free time" before it kicks in, and then you get to make checks first. You can, essentially, waltz across a desert for a week without any equipment before getting into real trouble. The mechanic exists but the numbers are way off.


Also, I'm pretty sure a broken item is broken.
To my knowledge there are no rules for breaking anything, so it won't break in the first place.

[Tiki Snakes]

Yes, that one. Because it looks dangerous on paper, but in practice it won't kill anyone because you have to roll less than zero to do that (and your teammates can assist, and so forth).


The problem is that you get a lot of "free time" before it kicks in, and then you get to make checks first. You can, essentially, waltz across a desert for a week without any equipment before getting into real trouble. The mechanic exists but the numbers are way off.


To my knowledge there are no rules for breaking anything, so it won't break in the first place.

In reverse order; There are no rules for breathing, or eating, or taking a crap. You die, of oxygen starvation, starvation starvation, and then your bowels explode.

Things break when the DM says they have broken. Lack of Rules just means they don't break without the DM wanting them to.

Secondly; "The Numbers are off"? Sure, the suggested rule of 3's numbers are initially acheivable. You can manage a good amount of time without food. You may even make it to a week before losing your first healing surge from extreme thirst, but after that it's downhill fast, and this of course is assuming that the desert is otherwise safe and friendly.

Which of course, Athas's won't be. There are already several desert encounter style plant-things for Dark Sun, before they've even released the setting. You think that your little desert explorer is going to make it a week crossing the desert on foot in that setting without running into other problems?

and guess what? The DM is quite free to impose additional circumstancial penalties on any of those checks. Especially if you've spent those water-less days fighting your way across the desert under the burning sun.

Of course, if you haven't even trained Endurance, and aren't a con heavy build, you'll be out of surges pretty damn soon.

Okay, so, lastly the ritual; sure, with people helping, it's going to be safer. Let's assume for a second we don't have a party full of people who have trained in heal, okay? At level 8, a roll of 1 from an auto-built dwarven cleric gets me a check of 16. That means that, with the penalty from the effects level, you could expect most likely to have just inflicted damage equal to the target characters maximum hit points, and you'd need to roll a 3 to avoid that meaning it'll happen about 1 in 10 times. You'd need a check of above 27 just to avoid dealing damage to the target equal to his blooded value.

If the creature that inflicts the condition is higher level, then obviously things get worse.

Given that this is in the default part of the thing, it's quite easy to see how setting specific books could make this much more dangerous to fit their theme, for example setting-specific-diseases that count as higher level for the purposes of the ritual, or that inflict damage when removed, or any number of other perfectly valid changes.

[FoE]

Personally, I don't give a damn what they do to the Tomb of Horrors to update it to 4E. I know it's become a sacred cow among D&D players, but it's a terrible adventure, guys. There are too few fights (and they're generally terrible fights) and it punishes players for wanting to actually explore the dungeon.

[Tyndmyr]

_Players_ shouldn't die in any RPG. [1] I think you mean to say that 4.0 is a _characters_ shouldn't die game.


Lies. Filthy lies spread by "chaotic neutral" players yearning to continue breathing.

[Gamerlord]

This is bad. Even the 3.5 version of the tomb lost most of the flavor of the original, due to the 'skill for everything' and 'there must be some chance of success' design. Add in 4.0's 'players shouldn't die' and you have something that just isn't Gygaxian enough.

AHAHAHAHAH!

You're missing the point, any D&D product designer worth his salt can adapt any adventure to any edition!

It might be even MORE of a meat grinder!

[Tyndmyr]

It does make me happy to think of 4e "What's dying?" characters facing an authentical ToH experience.

The sheer piles of bodies should be amusing.

[Gamerlord]

I can imagine it already:


DM: The monster hits, take 100 damage, lose all healing surges.
Party: Wait,what?
DM: Did I mention that is at-will?

[Mando Knight]

Anyway I kind of fail to see how TOH would work in 4E, unless they're replacing all instances of "your character dies messsily" with "your character takes -2 on all defenses, save ends" :smallbiggrin:

It can work. The old paradigm for the ToH kept the casters drained and used no/high-save death traps, correct? Here's what could be implemented for hgiher lethality in a 4e game:

-Limited, or possibly non-existent, chances for Short Rests. Why should you have 5 minutes to rest after beating up a group of goblins when there's half an army of orcs next door?

-No Extended rests. No, you can't spend 4-8 hours to rest and regain your strength without slogging all the way back out the dungeon, which means that the monsters will be prepared for you the second time around.

-Monsters that are quite simply out of your league. Blindsight monsters combined with Black Dragons, monsters that are half a tier (or more) higher leveled than you...

-Not just -2 to defenses (save ends). Dragons especially in 4e have more ridiculous powers such as domination, significant ongoing damage, etc. An old instant-death trap would likely deal massive damage and drain a healing surge... both of which are rather dangerous after a while if you're not going to spend rests to recover your surges...

[tcrudisi]

...how?

It is statistically highly unlikely for any character to die before combat actually ends. Do you have a leader in your party? Anyone trained in Heal? Do you carry potions?


Yes, we do. 4e is about tactics and being a good team player. He's neither. As an example, we were fighting this lady (leader type and she had several cronies with her) who had one of the nastiest basic attacks I've ever seen (we've never made it above level 9, so keep that in mind). It did something like: pretty good damage, pull, knock prone, daze, and you cannot attack for one round. Anyway, he asks a question, "Do you guys think I should move behind that tree and attack with this ability?" We all looked at him and every single one of us said, "No, that's a bad idea. You are a Rogue, don't do it that way." He then proceeded to do it. She focused in on him, instead of the tank, because he made himself a more appealing target, and takes him from not-quite-bloodied to unconscious.

As a part of his moving, he had taken himself out of range of the healer. Well, the healer keeps getting dazed while trying to make it to him. The only ally he had near him? Me, as a Wild Sorcerer. I had a +1 to my Heal check. I fail a couple of heal checks, the Cleric would have made it by his 3rd round unconscious, but the player storms off going, "WELL, YOU ALL AGREED WITH ME THAT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA!!!" (Sorry for the caps, but he did yell). The DM looks at us funny, and goes, "Well, that character's now dead. Does a *insert high number* hit your Will, Wizard? Okay, use Magic Missile as a coup de grace against the Rogue."

Another time, he was playing a ... Dark Pact (?) Warlock. The ones that let you sometimes take a bit of damage from an ally to fuel your spells. We go into his first combat (this was his second character) and he's playing a Drow in an all-good party. We begrudgingly allow him to come along, since we don't fully trust the Drow. In his first combat, we open the door and get ambushed. He asks first the Swordmage, then myself, if we would be willing to take some damage so his spell would do more damage. No, we were not. First, we don't trust this character, and second... taking damage is usually a bad idea. Well, he takes it anyway, without permission, from the Swordmage.

For starters, who does that? "Oh, you said I could NOT deal you any damage so my spell does 1d6 more? Well, I'll do it anyway!" The Swordmage responded like any good level 1 Swordmage would: with a Frost Backlash. She crit and took him down to his negative bloodied value.

No, we don't have a problem with the player. I like the guy, but egads is he a terrible player. He doesn't understand how to operate in a team and he has no grasp for tactics. As such, he constantly finds himself dieing through bad decisions. The DM does not object to killing players (obviously), as out of 7 players, all of us have died at some point, albeit only once for all of us except for the bad player.

I could go on about this players "exploits"... but I hope I've given you enough of an understanding.

[Tyndmyr]

An old instant-death trap would likely deal massive damage and drain a healing surge... both of which are rather dangerous after a while if you're not going to spend rests to recover your surges...

Not at all the same.

Death, no save is not at all equivalent to hp damage and a surge.

[Tough_Tonka]

I think a 4e Tomb of Horrors could be done. All you need to do is up the damage tables for traps and it could work.

I definitely don't recommend playing the 3.5 version though. I played it with a party of 4 11th level character and the thing was a joke for my gnome wizards that had overland flight cast every day, our monkey summoning druid that found most of the traps and our skill specialist rogue with boots of levatation. 3.5 spells took away most of the danger and fun in that dungeon.

At least in 4e the PCs can't just use a few spells to solve all there problems. Also that edition encourages diferent ways to solve traps which fits the tomb of horrors. It would be a good idea to warn a party playing Tomb of Horrors first so they don't pick classes with any abilities besides fighting though.

[Mando Knight]

Not at all the same.

Death, no save is not at all equivalent to hp damage and a surge.

No, you're right. It's not the same. However, the new paradigm is to kill you while you think you've got a chance: healing surges to heal yourself, death saving throws to stay alive, etc. By wearing down your resources and limiting your resting ability, it can become deadlier when the chips are down, since you lowered your guard when you saw that the sudden-death traps weren't suddenly deadly.

[mikeejimbo]

It would be a good idea to warn a party playing Tomb of Horrors first so they don't pick classes with any abilities besides fighting though.

Good for the players maybe.

[Tough_Tonka]

To my knowledge there are no rules for breaking anything, so it won't break in the first place.

So by this logic, because there are no rules for blinking no one in DnD blinks.

[Tough_Tonka]

Good for the players maybe.

Yes, this is a game afterall. When I played the 3.5 Tomb of Horrors are party also included a Fighter and a Barbarian that just followed us around and carried things that weren't important enough the be in our bags of holding. Needless to say they didn't think this was a very fun module.

I guess in a 4e version the casters would outshine everyone else too much though. Even in 4e some class are just more useful out of combat than others.

[mikeejimbo]

So by this logic, because there are no rules for blinking no one in DnD blinks.

Yes. Why would they bother to blink? There are no rules for eyes drying out, either.

[The Glyphstone]

So by this logic, because there are no rules for blinking no one in DnD blinks.

What? At least in 3.5, almost everyone is blinking (well, Blinking) at higher levels - arcane casters can even control exactly when they blink, for 10 minutes/level. Rogues blink so fast you can't tell if they are looking at you or not, until they amputate your kidneys.:smallbiggrin:

[Snails]

Personally, I don't give a damn what they do to the Tomb of Horrors to update it to 4E. I know it's become a sacred cow among D&D players, but it's a terrible adventure, guys. There are too few fights (and they're generally terrible fights) and it punishes players for wanting to actually explore the dungeon.

It has its positive points as a concept, but it is really the most overrated dungeon module ever written.

[Artanis]

I can imagine it already:


DM: The monster hits, take 100 damage, lose all healing surges.
Party: Wait,what?
DM: Did I mention that is at-will?

My thoughts exactly.

I don't see why people say 4e is incapable of no-save insta-kills. Just make a trap that does 3000d50 damage and there ya go, same end effect.

[Tiki Snakes]

Yes, this is a game afterall. When I played the 3.5 Tomb of Horrors are party also included a Fighter and a Barbarian that just followed us around and carried things that weren't important enough the be in our bags of holding. Needless to say they didn't think this was a very fun module.

I guess in a 4e version the casters would outshine everyone else too much though. Even in 4e some class are just more useful out of combat than others.

They MIGHT outshine some of the other classes, but not really that easily. Mainly via the occaisional funky move action power, ie, the occaisional teleport or spider-climb. Sorcerer packs a fair few flight powers, too, but they are still quite limited.

However, said casters will drop VERY easily, as they really just don't have the HP's or surges to really go for it.

It may be worth mentioning that, by RAW, you actually can't take another Extended Rest untill about 8 hours or something has passed, so you're talking about some pretty nervy hours for the squishies.

[Kurald Galain]

-Limited, or possibly non-existent, chances for Short Rests. Why should you have 5 minutes to rest after beating up a group of goblins when there's half an army of orcs next door?
I think I'll have to try that some time - it's a very different paradigm and means players have to be really careful with their encounter powers.

Hm, it also means people won't be able to heal any more after a while. Yup, sounds pretty lethal. Bring in the potions!

[Colmarr]

I remember hearing that 4e ToH would be intentionally lacking 4e's usual safety nets.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was the case.

The whole premise of the Tomb of Horrors was to be D&D at its deadliest. It took accepted gameplay wisdom and said "screw you guys, I'm going to kill you all".

You can't take that approach within the 4e schema, but tomb of horrors was never really within the general D&D schema anyway, and there's no reason why WotC can't adopt that approach when preparing 4e ToH.

(I'm not convinced they will, but it's certainly possible.)

[ken-do-nim]

I think a 4e Tomb of Horrors could be done. All you need to do is up the damage tables for traps and it could work.

I definitely don't recommend playing the 3.5 version though. I played it with a party of 4 11th level character and the thing was a joke for my gnome wizards that had overland flight cast every day, our monkey summoning druid that found most of the traps and our skill specialist rogue with boots of levatation. 3.5 spells took away most of the danger and fun in that dungeon.

At least in 4e the PCs can't just use a few spells to solve all there problems. Also that edition encourages diferent ways to solve traps which fits the tomb of horrors. It would be a good idea to warn a party playing Tomb of Horrors first so they don't pick classes with any abilities besides fighting though.

I'm not even sure that Tomb of the Horrors is run best in AD&D. I think it would run best in OD&D, where there isn't a find traps roll at all, you just have to spell out exactly what you are searching and how. It's the origin of the 10 foot pole, where you poke ahead to make sure there aren't pit traps. Not that Tomb of Horrors would have any pit traps ...