View Full Version : 4e- Paragon Multiclassing; Break My Houserule Please!

2009-11-25, 02:09 AM
So, while on my biweekly 2.5hr train trip today I think I thought up a way to make paragon multiclassing be attractive for things other than Half-elves and not be generally very inferior to just taking a PP.

Now, I happen to like 4e's MC system, so this isn't a jab at that. But, I do feel that it doesn't hold up well past the initial power swaps because PP features are pretty outstanding and paragon multiclassers get nothing remotely similar.

Here's my houserule, please try to break it as much as possible via crazy combinations. My aim is to have it, at worst, be equal to the heights of current MC abuse (damn bard shenanigans) or several quite strong PPs. I don't want it to be better than PPs.

Paragon Multiclass
Prerequisite: Must have a multiclass feat.
11th Level: Versatile Action:
Choose one 11th level Action Point (not sure how to word this, but you know what I mean) Feature from a Paragon Path which has one of the classes you qualify for as a prerequisite.

11th Level: Expert Multiclasser:
You gain Hybrid Talent as a bonus feat, you may use it to pick one Hybrid class feature for a class you have a Multiclass Feat for. If you possess a Multiclass feat that provides an ability related to a Hybrid feature (e.g. Sneak Attack from Rogue MC or 1/day Healing Word from cleric MC) you may choose to retrain that feat to another Multiclass feat that does not provide some version of that feature. If you do not retrain the Multiclass feat, you may not choose a Hybrid feature related to your Multiclass feature when you gain your Hybrid Talent feat. ((Explanation: I saw easy abuse here that would let MC characters be more Hybridized than Hybrids, which is not the goal of this houserule. However, it is verrrry clunky wording so if anyone has a better suggestion for how to phrase it that'd be great.))

16th Level: Paragon Multiclasser (or whatever)
You may choose the 16th level feature of a paragon path for which one of the classes you qualify as is a prerequisite for. This may not be the same class used to gain the 11th level Action Point Feature.

Power selection follows the standard format for Paragon Multiclassing.

Things I'm aware might cause a problem: Crazy Hybrid characters, Half-elf Bards, Bards in general, ultra-powerful paragon path features I overlooked or did not consider.

2009-11-25, 03:31 AM
While I like your idea of improving PMCing, I don't think simply poaching AP powers and level 16 features from PPs are the way to do it. Also, Hybrid Talent feats only really apply to Hybrid characters, since the defining class features of a class (bonus damage for strikers, healing powers for leaders) are often granted without the use of Hybrid Talent. What I would do is create a different Action Point class feature at level 11, not unlike the one granted by the Versatile Master Feat (regain an encounter power instead of taking an extra action).

In fact, you could use the same idea, and add that Half-Elf's who have the Versatile Master feat and are PMCing get their extra action in addition to regaining an encounter power. And there's your level 11 AP feature.

For the other feature, instead of granting Hybrid Talent, I'd just say give the PC the hybrid class features already granted by being a hybrid character (but only the features of ONE class, in case of Windrise Ports or Bard). (i.e. a Rogue PMCing Avenger would get Oath of Enmity instead of a hybrid talent feat [you could still let them take the feat normally, but remember to limit it the same way as earlier]) You don't have to worry about retraining earlier multiclass feats, since the hybrid class features only apply to powers in the class that you're PMCing into, not your base class.

e.g. If you were a Fighter who PMCed into Rogue with the Sneak of Shadows MC feat, you would get to use Sneak Attack as normal with your Rogue Powers only, and 1/Encounter, you get to deal that SA damage with a fighter power (by means of Sneak of Shadows). Still balanced, IMO.

I think of these proposed changes as having a hybrid character at higher levels. You sacrifice the powers of a PP, but you get to keep the full class features of a normal class while still benefiting from your multiclass' hybrid features.

I'm not sure what to do with the level 16 feature that all PPs get, but I suppose you could take a leaf out of Eternal Seeker's book and give the PC a level 11 feature from a PP that he or she qualifies for (instead of a level 16th feature, because coupled with what you get from PMCing, it's just a tad too much to allow the character to cherry pick from PP features as well).

Kurald Galain
2009-11-25, 03:59 AM
Paragon Multiclass
Prerequisite: Must have a multiclass feat.
... so is this intended as a feat? As a PP option? As an addition to the existing PMC option? Something else?

11th Level: Versatile Action:
Problem is, this isn't very versatile. Most PPs have a certain flavor, and then have a mostly-unrelated AP mechanic tacked on, of which a few are clearly superior. This superiority is generally "balanced" by having the rest of the PP being lacklustre. A good example is the Battle Mage PP, which has a huge to-hit boost on an AP, but is otherwise unimpressive.

16th Level: Paragon Multiclasser (or whatever)
Likewise. An option to pick here may be the roll-twice-vs-at-will shtick of the Divine Oracle.

Anyway I'm unclear as to what your aim is. The current problems with PMC are twofold, (1) the huge prerequisites, because you must already have taken four MC feats, and (2) the plain fact that PP powers tend to be better than lower-level class powers.

2009-11-25, 05:26 AM
Here's an idea:

11th level: Grant the Versatile Master AP ability, and let half-elves with the feat also take a bonus action.
11th level: Gain a bonus class feat from your multi-class.
16th level: Gain a bonus class feat from your multi-class.

11: gain a level 7 encounter power from your multi-class. At level 21, retrain it to level 13.
12: gain a level 10 utility power from your multi-class. At level 22, retrain it to level 16.
20: gain a level 19 daily power from your multi-class. At level 30, retrain it to level 25.

These fixes grant a Power-point feature, give you a return on your feat expenditure, and don't give the over-versatility of cherry-picking from other PPs, Also, you lower-than-normal powers eventually become higher than normal.

2009-11-25, 10:02 AM
Instead of doing something this generic, how about building a Multiclass Ranger Paragon Path (and one for each class, custom-built). Base it off of the Hybrid rules.

11: Paragon Hunter's Quarry. You gain the Ranger Hunter's Quarry power (this replaces any other Hunter's Quarry version you have), with the restriction that it only works with powers from this Paragon Path.

11: Paragon Ranger's Flexibility. Select one Daily attack, Encounter attack, Utility Daily and Encounter Daily power from the Ranger class that you do not possess of your level or lower. These are now your Ranger Flexibility powers. When you spend an action point, on that turn you may use these powers instead of an unexpended power from the same category of the same level or higher. You may retrain these Ranger Flexibility powers at any level to any Ranger power.

16: Paragon Ranger Fighting Style. Pick one of the three:
(Prime Shot and Defensive Mobility)
(Something for two-weapon rangers)
(A beast companion with -1 to all defences and attacks)

This approach steals from the Hybrid design space, but is custom-built. The Paragon Ranger's Flexibility gives you an on-demand "Ranger Spellbook" of powers.

2009-11-25, 10:35 AM
Great posts all. And KG, its meant as a replacement for the current PMC rules. While on the train, since I was AFB, I forgot about the fact that the powers gained are generally suckier than PP powers. Thanks for reminding me about Divine Oracle (I was considering Blood Mage as a problem too) but... does that make my PMC option anymore broken than a Cleric taking DO?

Really my 'Eureka' moment was realizing that the best way to PMC probably involved beating up Hybrids and taking their stuff. So I'm glad to see that not many of you seem to think that including Hybrid stuff is a bad way to go.

Pramxnim, I disagree that having access to striking or healing equates to having access to the base features of a specific class. It equates to having features of a role, but not the salient features of a class.

Yakk: While it does involve a little more work (need to make a PP for each MC) and is more restrictive to weird MC-bard builds than the current PMC system, I think that your suggestion might work out the best.