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AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 09:18 AM
Hey y'all. I'm playing a friend of mine in a LV 100 duel on any books. My buddy's running a Drow Demilich Sorcerer Archmage and is immune to magic, pretty much psionics, takes half damage from bludgeoning, and a quarter from slashing and piercing. Now I have to beat him somehow, but still stay within the books. HELP!!!!!!:smallfurious::smalleek:

UnChosenOne
2009-11-25, 09:24 AM
Would Pun Pun (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character_EVER) be enough to beat him?

Indon
2009-11-25, 09:27 AM
He doesn't sound very optimized.

What class would you like to use?

Archbear
2009-11-25, 09:29 AM
Well, off the top of my head I'd say something that's immune to magic would be good against a Sorcerer Archmage Demilich. Maybe some kind of Demilich Wizard Archmage? :smalltongue:

I have no experience what-so-ever with level 100 characters or anything even remotely similar, but whatever the problem is, I'm confident Epic magic can handle it. Someone is bound to come along any minute now with some crazy scheme that will blow anything and everything out of the water. Or yeah, just Pun-Pun.

Incidentally, what made you decide on level 100? Was it just a nice, even number?

kentma57
2009-11-25, 09:32 AM
Well, off the top of my head I'd say something that's immune to magic would be good against a Sorcerer Archmage Demilich. Maybe some kind of Demilich Wizard Archmage? :smalltongue:

I have no experience what-so-ever with level 100 characters or anything even remotely similar, but whatever the problem is, I'm confident Epic magic can handle it. Someone is bound to come along any minute now with some crazy scheme that will blow anything and everything out of the water. Or yeah, just Pun-Pun.

Incidentally, what made you decide on level 100? Was it just a nice, even number?

Well at this level wizard vs sorrcerer caster battle, the sorcerer just has to get the right feats and he will counter every spell you have and only have a measly 100 or so spells left...

Killer Angel
2009-11-25, 09:38 AM
I'm playing a friend of mine in a LV 100 duel on any books.

Wow... did you really register to pose such a question? Lev. 100 with any books and no indication on your classes?

Be a caster, use Epic magic, win.
Be a caster, use Genesis and one of the common loop with gate, win. (in this case, you don't even need to be a 100 lev. caster. You could be a lower level anything with UMD)
Lev. 100 has too many ways...

jiriku
2009-11-25, 09:45 AM
Yeah just do some searches on the playground for topics like "tippyverse", "chain-gating solars", "infinite loop", and "simulacrum abuse", and you'll find everything you need. If he's still vulnerable to any sort of attack at all by level 100, then he really doesn't know what the heck he's doing and you could probably beat him even with a level 30 character.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-11-25, 09:56 AM
Well, my favorite tactic for the "you can't hurt me" build is to shapechange into a zodar:


You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form


Invulnerability (Ex): A zodar is impervious to all attacks except those from bludgeoning weapons, and the enhancement bonus (if any) of such a weapon is disregarded when determining the result of the attack.

Wish (Su): Once per year, a zodar can alter reality as if it had just cast a wish spell as a sorcerer of the same level as its Hit Dice.

So you get to keep all your own spellcasting-relevant stats, and gain Str 25, Dex 16, immunity to every attack form except bludgeoning weapons, and a free supernatural (!!!) wish. All you have to do is throw on a few buffs beforehand that ensure that any bludgeoning-capable bruiser he summons can't hit you, and you're set.

The Demented One
2009-11-25, 09:59 AM
Go first. Going first is important.

And have contingent spells. You should be able to have 100 of them. Do so.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 10:59 AM
Let me clairify. I wanted to use the Fey'ari from RoF and run a char that is capable of defeating him. He also has an insane spellcraft check and abuses the soul steal of the Demilich. He also can control any undead.

Douglas
2009-11-25, 11:02 AM
What limits are there on epic spells? If epic spells are allowed exactly RAW with no limits on mitigation, how much you abuse the epic spell design system is almost the only thing that matters. With house ruled limits, it may depend on how creative you are, and if the limits are severe enough the rest of your build might actually matter.

valadil
2009-11-25, 11:16 AM
This sounds like a lot of work for what will amount to an opposed initiative check. Figure out a tactic that will kill him. Invest as few levels as possible in it. Invest the rest in going first.

Behold_the_Void
2009-11-25, 11:24 AM
This sounds like a lot of work for what will amount to an opposed initiative check. Figure out a tactic that will kill him. Invest as few levels as possible in it. Invest the rest in going first.

Yeah, that.

Honestly I'd say you're probably better off throwing glitter at each other and going "I killed you with my magical 100 doom apocalypse!" "Nuh uh!" "Uh huh!"

3.5 shatters when you hit EARLY epic levels. Level 100 is beyond the point of silly and ridiculous in terms of what you can do.

Temet Nosce
2009-11-25, 11:26 AM
This sounds like a lot of work for what will amount to an opposed initiative check. Figure out a tactic that will kill him. Invest as few levels as possible in it. Invest the rest in going first.

Not really... Assuming that the other player wasn't sufficiently abusive it may not matter who goes first. So the Op should most likely just use one of the infinite mitigation methods to get immunity to everything and proceed from there.

Really this is kinda pointless, whoever is more abusive wins. Honestly, it's actually kind of boring... you could do the same thing the moment you got epic spellcasting. You don't need more levels after that.

Kylarra
2009-11-25, 11:27 AM
Take a few levels in psion/wilder and just manifest anticipatory strike. You go first. :smallsigh:

Radar
2009-11-25, 11:32 AM
Does his immunities cover Shadow Weave magic, divine magic (abilities of beings with some divine ranks), epic magic, invocations, truespeak, spell-like and supernatural abilities? If an answer for any of those questions is no, then it's the way to go (except truespeak - at this level no items will boost the skill sufficiently enough ot be of any use).

In any case a Ruby Knight Vindicator can generate high ammount of swift actions (by burning turn undead attempts) - it can have a large variety of uses.

For example if you focus most of your levels on advancing sorcerer casting, then you use those actions can cast loads upon loads of spells (if you take some Extra Turning or buy a bunch of Nightsticks) thanks to Arcane Spellsurge (shortens casting time). Even if your opponent is immune to magic, you can gate any creature with HD up to twice your caster level (Great wyrm Force/Prismatic Dragon maybe with additional racial HD or Genius Loci or something else) buff it into stratosphere and watch it tear the demilich down.

Or go with a build similar to the infamous Chuck E. Cheese (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=993832) (even without persisted Footsteps of the Divine he could deals absurd ammounts of damage).

Temet Nosce
2009-11-25, 11:45 AM
Does his immunities cover Shadow Weave magic, divine magic (abilities of beings with some divine ranks), epic magic, invocations, truespeak, spell-like and supernatural abilities? If an answer for any of those questions is no, then it's the way to go (except truespeak - at this level no items will boost the skill sufficiently enough ot be of any use).

Meh. Epic spell with arbitrarily high buff to Int (I seem to recall that's what Truespeak is based off). You now have a Truespeak score of aleph 0. Congratulations.

I don't think you quite grasp how absurd this is, no amount of typical damage (I believe Chuck was fire) is going to have any effect at all, and no creature is going to matter either.

You are going to have infinite ability scores, AC, saves, etc.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 11:46 AM
What limits are there on epic spells? If epic spells are allowed exactly RAW with no limits on mitigation, how much you abuse the epic spell design system is almost the only thing that matters. With house ruled limits, it may depend on how creative you are, and if the limits are severe enough the rest of your build might actually matter.

basically, most instant kill spells are out. However, there is no limit to anything else. I personally enjoy melee/arcane hybrids. And btw, hes also a ninja

UglyPanda
2009-11-25, 11:52 AM
basically, most instant kill spells are out. However, there is no limit to anything else. I personally enjoy melee/arcane hybrids. And btw, hes also a ninjaThen you know what you must do then. Try to convince him to take as many levels of ninja as his build will allow as that class is worthless to him at high levels (Or most levels, really). A heavy fortification buckler does in the silly part of the equation that isn't as easily replicated with spells.

Radar
2009-11-25, 12:02 PM
Meh. Epic spell with arbitrarily high buff to Int (I seem to recall that's what Truespeak is based off). You now have a Truespeak score of aleph 0. Congratulations.

I don't think you quite grasp how absurd this is, no amount of typical damage (I believe Chuck was fire) is going to have any effect at all, and no creature is going to matter either.

You are going to have infinite ability scores, AC, saves, etc.
Oh, right... epic magic mitigation rules.

And now i have the urge to find a way of producing an ability score of aleph 1 (as absurd as it may seem).

Temet Nosce
2009-11-25, 12:07 PM
Oh, right... epic magic mitigation rules.

And now i have the urge to find a way of producing an ability score of aleph 1 (as absurd as it may seem).

Heh, if you manage that one post it. I can't recall whether the latest version of Pun Pun has aleph 1 or aleph 0 scores though, so it might have already happened.

Yeah though, this duel is no duel. With proper preparation it's just gonna be a joke. Without it... well it'll still probably be a joke, just for the other guy.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 12:09 PM
Would Pun Pun (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character_EVER) be enough to beat him?

Banned. So is any build like him.

Temet Nosce
2009-11-25, 12:12 PM
Banned. So is any build like him.

Does this apply to epic spell casting as well? Because that house rule would completely alter this.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-25, 12:19 PM
Banned. So is any build like him.

Banned by who? If it's your friend who's making the rules, then this could be much harder, since he may have already pre-emptively 'banned' his weaknesses...

crazedloon
2009-11-25, 12:45 PM
21 levels of your favorite int based full caster class
25 to int from levels (than add on items but lets ignore those for now)
3 levels of factotum +12
6 level of lurk +12
Moment of Prescience +25

should get you the first turn (than use your immediate action to gain your turn first should he try to use his)

the 21 levels of int caster should allow you to do any of the above cheese

jiriku
2009-11-25, 01:04 PM
I mean, really. Take incantatrix. Cast time stop and persist it. Do this every day for a year. Chain-gate in a few thousand solars. Dispel your time stop. If ten thousand angels can't kill him, that was just your first standard action in round 1. Quicken a time stop and try it again.

Eldariel
2009-11-25, 01:12 PM
Honestly, we need to know what kinds of rules there are in place before we can help you any. If Pun-Pun is "banned", we need to know on what accord.

HamHam
2009-11-25, 01:34 PM
Uber-charger build. That's like 20 levels there and half of like 1k+ damage will still probably be enough to one shot him. Use another 20 levels to stack on a bunch of holy, sacred, etc damage on the uber-charger damage just to make sure.

You now have 60 levels left who's purpose will be to make sure you can charge him. So, full casting and a way to Quicken Disjunction (Incantrix or whatever) as well as Teleport/Planeshift and so forth.

Ruby Night Vindicator or similar to break the action economy.

Then you just win initiative, Disjunction his defenses, teleport to charging range, charge, and win.

Douglas
2009-11-25, 01:40 PM
If he's at all smart about using epic magic himself, Disjunction will hit an epic ward and fail.

Eurus
2009-11-25, 01:41 PM
...I'm curious. Is there anything that a level 100 character with epic spellcasting can do that a level 21 character with epic spellcasting can't? Don't you kind of cap out once you get into chain-gating infinite amounts of Solars to produce arbitrarily powerful epic spells? I mean, really, where the heck are you supposed to go from there?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 01:46 PM
Well, my favorite tactic for the "you can't hurt me" build is to shapechange into a zodar:





So you get to keep all your own spellcasting-relevant stats, and gain Str 25, Dex 16, immunity to every attack form except bludgeoning weapons, and a free supernatural (!!!) wish. All you have to do is throw on a few buffs beforehand that ensure that any bludgeoning-capable bruiser he summons can't hit you, and you're set.

what book is this from

Kzickas
2009-11-25, 01:52 PM
afb, does anyone know if dragon ascendant can be used to get the salient divine ability that let's you kill anything?

Signmaker
2009-11-25, 02:03 PM
...I'm curious. Is there anything that a level 100 character with epic spellcasting can do that a level 21 character with epic spellcasting can't? Don't you kind of cap out once you get into chain-gating infinite amounts of Solars to produce arbitrarily powerful epic spells? I mean, really, where the heck are you supposed to go from there?

You'd have the Wealth to resolve your chain quicker?

InkEyes
2009-11-25, 02:04 PM
what book is this from

Fiend Folio, it's 3.0 but there's a pdf on Wizard's website to adjust it to 3.5.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 02:14 PM
Rules:

1.No divine ranks, no Pun Pun types, no instant kill spells, no time stop, no loop effects

2. All books, WotC, and Dragon Magazine

3. Max Prestige: 2

4. Any Templates allowed.

5. No CR races >20, no dragons

Milskidasith
2009-11-25, 02:16 PM
Rules:

1.No divine ranks, no Pun Pun types, no instant kill spells, no time stop, no loop effects

2. All books, WotC, and Dragon Magazine

3. Max Prestige: 2

4. Any Templates allowed.

5. No CR races >20, no dragons

You can only have two prestige classes? At level 100? You can't use save or dies, even though they exist since level 5? Jeez, these rules are senseless.

Temet Nosce
2009-11-25, 02:18 PM
...I'm curious. Is there anything that a level 100 character with epic spellcasting can do that a level 21 character with epic spellcasting can't? Don't you kind of cap out once you get into chain-gating infinite amounts of Solars to produce arbitrarily powerful epic spells? I mean, really, where the heck are you supposed to go from there?

Barring houserules? No.


Rules:

1.No divine ranks, no Pun Pun types, no instant kill spells, no time stop, no loop effects

2. All books, WotC, and Dragon Magazine

3. Max Prestige: 2

4. Any Templates allowed.

5. No CR races >20, no dragons

Meh, be on the safe side and do it the hard way. Take Reserves of Strength to remove caps on CL, make yourself immune to damn near everything without abusing mititgations (you can afford it), then cast epic dispel followed by a maximized, empowered, twinned, shatter. You may kill him in one hit.

Nothing even remotely cheesy in comparison with typical epic.

Eldariel
2009-11-25, 02:20 PM
Ehhhhh... If Max PrCs you're allowed is 2, better pick some that scales really well. 'cause having to take ~80 levels in one class means you'd better get a lot of good stuff outta it. Something like Red Wizard [DMG] is a very good option simply because it scales your Caster Level.

"No instant kill spells"; what does that mean? On level 100, you're immune to death effects and the like all day anyways so casting an instant kill spell would be an exercise in futility. Time Stop...well, it's pretty easy to Spell Stowaway or just Ward. Meh. Pick two PrCs with solid class features, use Epic Spellcasting better than your opponent, go to town.

hamishspence
2009-11-25, 02:23 PM
If it's a duel (which implies one-on-one), does that mean no summoning in anything that can be used to mitigate epic casting DC, and no support casters from Leadership?

AmberVael
2009-11-25, 02:25 PM
Save or Dies would be practically useless by that level anyways. With various magic items, you can almost completely negate save based mechanics once you get that high. You'll easily be able to afford negation of all the different save types (death effects, mind influencing, that stuff), and probably everything else.

Besides, the opponent is a Demilich. Only a rare save or die spell would affect it anyways.

Two PrC limitation does hurt a bit, but there are no base class limitations, which should be helpful at that level.

If I recall correctly, douglas once theorized that at epic levels, blasters become a ton more viable. It is difficult to avoid their damage if done right (while saves can be more easily avoided, as previously mentioned), and with tricky combos you can pump the numbers up to astronomical levels. Of course, you don't want to fully rely on just that, but it could be worth a try.

Signmaker
2009-11-25, 02:28 PM
If I recall correctly, douglas once theorized that at epic levels, blasters become a ton more viable. It is difficult to avoid their damage if done right (while saves can be more easily avoided, as previously mentioned), and with tricky combos you can pump the numbers up to astronomical levels. Of course, you don't want to fully rely on just that, but it could be worth a try.

Ehhh. You can easily get the standard Five Energy Immunities, Force Immunity, Dessication Immunity, Positive Energy Immunity, and Negative Energy Immunity easily enough, which just leaved Untyped Damage and Immunity-penetrating spells. In which case you use one of any number of "Damage doesn't hurt" tricks to immunize yourself from damage anyway.

AmberVael
2009-11-25, 02:30 PM
Ehhh. You can easily get the standard Five Energy Immunities, Force Immunity, Dessication Immunity, Positive Energy Immunity, and Negative Energy Immunity easily enough, which just leaved Untyped Damage and Immunity-penetrating spells. In which case you use one of any number of "Damage doesn't hurt" tricks to immunize yourself from damage anyway.

We already know the demi-lich is susceptible to some types of damage though (bludgeoning, particularly), so while your argument might be sound against an unknown, it probably doesn't apply here.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 02:35 PM
No Instant Kill Spells means no Wish, no Alter Reality kills.

And as for his char, His name is Inferno Baenre: Ninja Sorcerer Archmage with immunity to all magic.

Signmaker
2009-11-25, 02:35 PM
We already know the demi-lich is susceptible to some types of damage though (bludgeoning, particularly), so while your argument might be sound against an unknown, it probably doesn't apply here.

True. We ARE assuming a flawed opponent (because frankly, a smart opponent in this situation would be terrifying).

I am going to second the Dispel-Spam suggestion. Work up a method to reliably chain-dispel everything on the opponent with a high level of success (as in, get the bonus absurdedly high + Ashes of Power), and then disjoin them before they can recover their precious 100th level gear and >100 buffs/contingencies.

Of course, then you run in to "how many contingencies do they have to stop dispelling?" but hey, flawed opponent assumption.

I'm still confused as to how you can fully immunize yourself to magic but NOT weapon damage, though. Smells fishy. They're probably not as immune as they assume. Or are telling white lies.

Douglas
2009-11-25, 02:45 PM
If I recall correctly, douglas once theorized that at epic levels, blasters become a ton more viable. It is difficult to avoid their damage if done right (while saves can be more easily avoided, as previously mentioned), and with tricky combos you can pump the numbers up to astronomical levels. Of course, you don't want to fully rely on just that, but it could be worth a try.
Ah yes, my level 25 build for the Town arena that won through sheer ridiculous damage output. I've learned better since then.

How to build a truly ridiculous high epic blaster:
1) Start with Sorcerer.
2) Take Hail of Stone (Spell Compendium, level 1), Arcane Fusion (Complete Mage, level 5), and Greater Arcane Fusion (Complete Mage, level 8) among your spells known.
3) Take Arcane Thesis for each of the spells listed in step 2.
4) Take Rapid Metamagic, Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, Intensify Spell, and many copies of Enhance Spell and Improved Metamagic.
5) Cast Twinned Repeated Greater Arcane Fusion from an 8th level slot.
6) Choose Twinned Repeated Arcane Fusion as the 7th level spell cast by Greater Arcane Fusion, and Twinned Repeated Intensified many-times-Enhanced (however many you can drop to 0 level increases with Improved Metamagic and Arcane Thesis) Hail of Stone for the 4th level or lower spell.
7) Choose Twinned Repeated Intensified many-times-Enhanced Hail of Stone for both the 1st level and 4th or lower spells from Arcane Fusion.
8) Laugh as your opponent is hit by thousands upon thousands of points of area effect no-save no-SR untyped damage from an instantaneous conjuration.
9) Add Quicken Spell, Arcane Spellsurge, Multispell, and Improved Spell Capacity to taste.

I'd recommend 10 levels of Incantatrix and everything after that in Hathran if you go this route. Hathran's epic progression gives a bonus feat every two levels, and it's a full caster PrC with all the standard caster feats on its list.

Note especially the no-SR part of point 8. That means magic immunity doesn't block it.

As far as I know the ways to block this are limited to a) not being in the targeted area, b) being immune to absolutely all damage, and c) preventing the spell from taking effect at all with something like Globe of Invulnerability or an epic ward.


I'm still confused as to how you can fully immunize yourself to magic but NOT weapon damage, though. Smells fishy. They're probably not as immune as they assume. Or are telling white lies.
It's a demilich ability.

Ormagoden
2009-11-25, 02:48 PM
I mean, really. Take incantatrix. Cast time stop and persist it. Do this every day for a year. Chain-gate in a few thousand solars. Dispel your time stop. If ten thousand angels can't kill him, that was just your first standard action in round 1. Quicken a time stop and try it again.

You make me smile! :smallsmile:

Signmaker
2009-11-25, 02:51 PM
The problem with blaster tactics is that they tend to be..surmountable. Examples being Energy Transformation Field and Immunity to Damage/Inability to die via damage.

Edit: Also, I think you're missing Rapid Spell metamagic, douglas.

AmberVael
2009-11-25, 02:54 PM
Ah yes, my level 25 build for the Town arena that won through sheer ridiculous damage output. I've learned better since then.

How to build a truly ridiculous high epic blaster:
*snip*
Heh, yeah, after that experience in the Town arena, that's also the sort of combination I came up with, once I really started realizing the potential.

Use of Multispell, Arcane Fusion (and Greater AF), and metamagic decreasers can lead to some terrifying output.
Personally, my first build used Force Missiles and Magic Missiles, but those have their flaws (SR). Hail of Stone does look better.

Dairun Cates
2009-11-25, 03:01 PM
Honestly, I have to wonder why you'd even run a level 100 combat in 3.5. The system just isn't built for it and breaks down into a muddled mess at that point. If you want that kind of stupid level BS, you'd be better off just making exalted characters or PL 20 M&M characters with lots of extra power points.

It's kinda like taking a Station Wagon and revving it up to 120 MPH just to see it go that fast only to have the engine burst into flames seconds later. If you're going to do that, why not just get a nice Sports Car?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 03:19 PM
heres the reason. This guy is my DM for an 8th level campaign, and claims to be the best player in my area. He pissed me off so much that this is basically a test of skill. Admittedly, the char hes using was originally Vecnas sucessor, but methinks I can win.

Zovc
2009-11-25, 03:31 PM
heres the reason. This guy is my DM for an 8th level campaign, and claims to be the best player in my area. He pissed me off so much that this is basically a test of skill. Admittedly, the char hes using was originally Vecnas sucessor, but methinks I can win.

To be honest, you've already lost, since you aren't building your own character, in my opinion. You don't seem to know where to start, even.

In spite of this, I don't think you could win, it sounds like your DM is a spoil-sport. If he has to approve your character, anything that can beat him is not going to be. This why a third party should be making the rules, and I don't think a level 100 duel proves anything.

My advice is to not have this duel, especially not if one of the participants is the referee.

AmberVael
2009-11-25, 03:35 PM
...claims to be the best player in my area...

If he agrees that this is a good test of "best player" he's obviously not.

Discarding the fact that being a good player has nothing to do with powergaming and optimizing, duels aren't even a good measure of skill (let alone 100th level duels).

The entire premise is ridiculous.

Zovc
2009-11-25, 03:41 PM
If he agrees that this is a good test of "best player" he's obviously not.

Discarding the fact that being a good player has nothing to do with powergaming and optimizing, duels aren't even a good measure of skill (let alone 100th level duels).

The entire premise is ridiculous.

Yeah, that's what I meant to say.

Comet
2009-11-25, 03:49 PM
"Dude! Let's see who is the Ultimate D&D Champion!"

"Swell, dude! Let's have a Duel!"

"Awesome! But what level should we be, dude?"

"Let's make it level 25. We'll have an epic showdown, dude!"

"Radicality! But wait a second, dude, I have an even better idea! Let's make it level One Hundred! That's, like, five times more epic than Epic."

"Dude!"

Why is it always level 100? It's not that different from any other epic level, is it? The numbers just get bigger.
I've never quite understood why D&D should be used for dueling. It just sounds like the OPs DM is desperate to prove his manliness in a rather unmanly manner . "Best D&D player", indeed.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 03:56 PM
Okay, I see y'all's point. How do I test my skill against him? He suggested 67th level. I also wish to put out that he's not the DM in this duel. Its our friend Eddy. He's Neutral in this mess

Narazil
2009-11-25, 03:57 PM
Okay, I see y'all's point. How do I test my skill against him? He suggested 67th level. I also wish to put out that he's not the DM in this duel. Its our friend Eddy. He's Neutral in this mess
Sounds like he has some cheese he wants to pull off..

.. Which appearently requires for him to be extremely high level.

Douglas
2009-11-25, 03:57 PM
heres the reason. This guy is my DM for an 8th level campaign, and claims to be the best player in my area. He pissed me off so much that this is basically a test of skill. Admittedly, the char hes using was originally Vecnas sucessor, but methinks I can win.
In that case you should not be asking for character building help here. If you pit a forum-spawned monstrosity against him it won't be your skill that wins, but the combined skill of the forum readers.

If you want a test of skill and you and your DM agree that an arena match with high epic optimized characters is suitable, I suggest you go by the rules of this arena (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=7698&date=1259176553), possibly with a different level and no gestalt, as that is a neutral source of unambiguous rules that eliminates the worst of the broken stuff while mostly sticking to RAW. I will volunteer to check both sides character sheets for validity if you like, but I will not offer major build advice for what is supposed to be a test of your own skill.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-25, 03:58 PM
Test of skill? Level ten would be far more realistic, because that comes up in actual gameplay way more often than level 67 does.

Even so, getting a build off the internet says nothing about playing skill.

Zovc
2009-11-25, 04:06 PM
Okay, I see y'all's point. How do I test my skill against him? He suggested 67th level. I also wish to put out that he's not the DM in this duel. Its our friend Eddy. He's Neutral in this mess

Addressing your question, you don't want to "test your skill" against him, apparently, you just want to beat him. If you were testing your skill, again you would've have built your character on your own. As for an appropriate test of a player's skill, I'd imagine it has nothing to do with optimization to most people, as "real" gaming--for most people--I would imagine is more closely related to roleplaying and not dueling. I don't think Dungeons and Dragons is a game of skill at all.

I'd recommend having Eddy roll d20+5 to decide what level you guys duel at. If the level is too low for your buddy, obviously he has a specific group of things he wants to use, and is obviously not a good "player" with the ability to make a good build at any level.

If the level is too low for all parties involved, (for whatever reason) just do gestalt.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 04:11 PM
I like the optimized arena idea. And definately. Will post char.

as for the person with the "no skill" statement, I'm simply asking for ideas, not like Primo Awesomo fully-unstoppable guys.

I just want ideas so I don't look like an idiot with a build that is too circumstantial.

Doc Roc
2009-11-25, 04:16 PM
We do have an ongoing optimized arena, which I help run. We have a sheet-checking system, neutral GMs and standardized maps. As for "testing your skill," most truly skilled optimizers seek help on the internet. A refusal to do so is, in my eyes, frankly a sign of being a scrub.

In short....


You are Cordially invited to
Join us at the

Test of Spite

Temet Nosce
2009-11-25, 04:16 PM
I like the optimized arena idea. And definately. Will post char.

as for the person with the "no skill" statement, I'm simply asking for ideas, not like Primo Awesomo fully-unstoppable guys.

I just want ideas so I don't look like an idiot with a build that is too circumstantial.

It's epic with epic spellcasting. Unstoppable is the name of the game. This level of play makes rocket launcher tag look reasonable.

Also, yeah this isn't going to tell you anything about who is a better player. It does as mentioned prove that your opponent is not a good player, but it certainly isn't going to be a test of which of you is better. I wouldn't even suggest the 1d20+5 idea, use ToS rules instead.

Edit: Ninja'd

Douglas
2009-11-25, 04:25 PM
It's epic with epic spellcasting. Unstoppable is the name of the game. This level of play makes rocket launcher tag look reasonable.
Yeah, sure, everyone has rockets, but everyone also has heavy duty anti-rocket shields and armor too. Or at least, they do if they're smart about it, and characters without such defenses are unlikely to survive if actually played through all those levels.

"Rocket launcher tag" in reference to high and epic level play is a minor pet peeve for me. Everyone seems to know several offensive tricks and combos but almost no one gives any credit to the defensive tricks also available at those levels. An actually well built highly power gamed character at high levels is not going to go down easily to any of the standard mega offense tricks. In fact, many of them will outright fail automatically.

Temet Nosce
2009-11-25, 04:38 PM
Yeah, sure, everyone has rockets, but everyone also has heavy duty anti-rocket shields and armor too. Or at least, they do if they're smart about it, and characters without such defenses are unlikely to survive if actually played through all those levels.

"Rocket launcher tag" in reference to high and epic level play is a minor pet peeve for me. Everyone seems to know several offensive tricks and combos but almost no one gives any credit to the defensive tricks also available at those levels. An actually well built highly power gamed character at high levels is not going to go down easily to any of the standard mega offense tricks. In fact, many of them will outright fail automatically.

Sure, but it's hit or miss, not a case of wearing down generally. I'm giving credit to the defensive combos (which are certainly impressive) but generally speaking they're not the kind of thing that will result in injury, they either completely stop an attack or it obliterates you. It's a level of play which is much less tolerant of mistakes.

HamHam
2009-11-25, 04:43 PM
Okay.

Crusader 1/Cleric 20/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Wizard 20/Wizard PrC 10/Epic Wizard 42

That gives you 14 epic bonus feats along with like 26 level up epic feats. Use 15 of those to make every single spell you cast automatically silenced, stiled, and quickened. Use the rest for Extra Turning, giving you like 80+ turn attempts per day.

You can now unload every single spell you have in a single round. Even if it's just casting Orb of Force over and over again, anything you want dead is probably dead.

If you are willing to use Nightstick cheapness, you can cut 20 of the Epic Wizard levels for 20 Druid levels and add another 40 something spells to the combo.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 05:28 PM
I like crusader and cleric, but he claims the Bard is the worst class ever. I thought about "proving him wrong" I had the idea of we each pick a class, and have 30lvs to build a workable character and then we duke it out.

As for Ruby Knight Vindicator, I'm debating its exact power. Why that over say Master of the Nine or something like that

Signmaker
2009-11-25, 05:38 PM
I like crusader and cleric, but he claims the Bard is the worst class ever. I thought about "proving him wrong" I had the idea of we each pick a class, and have 30lvs to build a workable character and then we duke it out.

As for Ruby Knight Vindicator, I'm debating its exact power. Why that over say Master of the Nine or something like that

Massive amounts of swift actions.

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-25, 05:39 PM
RKV lets you spend turn attempts to gain swift actions.

Zovc
2009-11-25, 05:39 PM
I like crusader and cleric, but he claims the Bard is the worst class ever. I thought about "proving him wrong" I had the idea of we each pick a class, and have 30lvs to build a workable character and then we duke it out.t

When was level 30 decided? I thought it was 100 or 67?

Bard is certainly not worse than a Commoner, and it is in a higher higher tier than quite a few classes (including Rogue and Fighter). The Bard is in tier 3, which is the best tier you can be in without being considered "broken" (read, "able to ruin the game in a few actions").

Ruby Knight Vindicator is good because it can get extra actions*, it also progresses your divine spellcasting, and spellcasting is probably more important than anything else in terms of raw power.

*Getting extra actions is really good.

Drogorn
2009-11-25, 05:41 PM
Build a level 100 commoner, just to spite him.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 05:46 PM
When was level 30 decided? I thought it was 100 or 67?

Bard is certainly not worse than a Commoner, and it is in a higher higher tier than quite a few classes (including Rogue and Fighter). The Bard is in tier 3, which is the best tier you can be in without being considered "broken" (read, "able to ruin the game in a few actions").

Ruby Knight Vindicator is good because it can get extra actions*, it also progresses your divine spellcasting, and spellcasting is probably more important than anything else in terms of raw power.

*Getting extra actions is really good.

1. I'm proposing this to him. Its a real test of skill, at least in my opinion

2. I know, but he doesn't like bard because of its short casting list and a minimal bab and he HATES bardic music.

3. {Scrubbed} I don't mess with divine usually. I stick with monk and arcane. I'm just new at the ToB. Forgive me if I don't have every book memorized...

Off Topic: Would an Insectoid Thri-Kreen Monk get 8 Flurry of Blows?

Zovc
2009-11-25, 06:00 PM
2. I know, but he doesn't like bard because of its short casting list and a minimal bab and he HATES bardic music.

Fair enough, but the Rogue gets a medium BAB and NO spellcasting. I was just trying to point out that the common opinion disagrees with him.


3. {Scrubbed} I don't mess with divine usually. I stick with monk and arcane. I'm just new at the ToB. Forgive me if I don't have every book memorized...

I don't have every book memorized, either, you can find me misunderstanding rules all over these boards. I don't mess with divine, usually, either, I can just look at the Ruby Knight Vindicator and see that it progresses divine spellcasting (where Master of the Nine does not), and that it provides extra swift actions (where Master of the Nine does not). I'm not trying to treat you like a retard, I'm just trying to clearly answer your questions? Would you prefer if I answered in an ambiguous manner?

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 06:02 PM
What about a cancer mage/hulking hurler cross....?

With the right feats and weapons and initiative, it could be fairly nasty...especially if there are no buffing rounds.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 06:12 PM
What about a cancer mage/hulking hurler cross....?

With the right feats and weapons and initiative, it could be fairly nasty...especially if there are no buffing rounds.

What race would you use? You have to be large and yet have good caster skills.

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-25, 06:17 PM
Half-ogre from Races of Destiny is only LA +2, and only takes -2 Int and -2 Cha. There's also Goliaths from Races of Stone (LA +1), have Powerful Build to basically count as Large for a number of things, and don't have any penalties to mental stats.

EDIT: Besides, Cancer Mage doesn't actually have casting prereqs. You need Base Fort Save of +5 and some skill ranks and feats. (It's in Book of Vile Darkness)

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 06:20 PM
Not sure, Half ogre maybe...? Anthropomorphic baleen whale? Can't recall the statlines, I'm AFB. At that level though, doesn't one or two points of int or cha become sort of meaningless? (I mean, epic level stat boosts, epic level feats, epic level cash.........)

Not to mention...and this is just me being ridiculous here...but with 100 levels to burn, you could pick up some NASTY freaking templates....

Or how about a half-golem...? Isn't there one that's pretty much just immune to magic period...?

I'm afb, so I'm not 100% - just spit balling...

EDIT: NINJA'D

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 06:28 PM
True.

Now, as for the Insectiod Thri-Kreen Monk, is that a good combo?

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 06:35 PM
Not really.

If you aren't casting at level 100, or even level 20 you LOSE.

I think acquired templates are going to be where your butter zone is, actually...

something like feral or phrenic or vampire or whatever....stuff you can ladle on think after your first 20 levels of caster.

But that's just me.

Eldariel
2009-11-25, 06:36 PM
True.

Now, as for the Insectiod Thri-Kreen Monk, is that a good combo?

In Epic? Meh. Monk is still horrible. Unarmed Strikes can be pretty good tho; I recall Douglas using an Eternal Blade with maxed out Unarmed Damage to great effect on a level 50 Gestalt Arena; with some size increases, UA damage means you should reach a point where one hit is enough to kill most characters of the level (of course it had maxed out casting and manifesting and so on, but those were mostly used to be immune to most things).

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 06:38 PM
Not really.

If you aren't casting at level 100, or even level 20 you LOSE.

Higher initiative + over 120 attacks + Initiate of Dragon Secrets + Acolyte of the fist = more damage than the caster can handle

Signmaker
2009-11-25, 06:39 PM
Higher initiative + over 120 attacks + Initiate of Dragon Secrets + Acolyte of the fist = more damage than the caster can handle

Um...no. That's such a big no.

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-25, 06:41 PM
Higher initiative + over 120 attacks + Initiate of Dragon Secrets + Acolyte of the fist = more damage than the caster can handle

Between contingencies, Celerity, spamming divinations, and all manner of defensive spells, a caster just kind of laughs at you.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 06:43 PM
Um...no. That's such a big no.

The combo at lv 100 was a gestalt ninja/monk, fighter, Psi Warrior and the two prestige classes stated earlier.

Feats required: Astetic Stalker, Astetic Fighter, deep impact, improved feint, snap kick and flying kick

Signmaker
2009-11-25, 06:45 PM
The combo at lv 100 was a gestalt ninja/monk, fighter, Psi Warrior and the two prestige classes stated earlier.

Feats required: Astetic Stalker, Astetic Fighter, deep impact, improved feint, snap kick and flying kick

You...don't even have to be epic to have immunity to death by damage.

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 06:46 PM
Between contingencies, Celerity, spamming divinations, and all manner of defensive spells, a caster just kind of laughs at you.

This, very this.

Actually, any kind of caster with access to celerity type spells pretty much has your number down.

They get a spell that says "I go first" Not + 100 to init, or + 1000 for that matter - just "I go first".

That, right there, in a caster vs melee fight, is the "I win" button.

The only answer is to get caster levels of your own, and cast the spells yourself, in which case it comes back down to a roll off.

Then, if you get initiative, you rape him sideways.

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-25, 06:47 PM
^ What Sign said. Combine Delay Death (Clr 4) and Beastland Ferocity (Clr 1) and you ignore the effects of HP damage as long as they're up.
That's just the simplest way that I know of.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 06:48 PM
You...don't even have to be epic to have immunity to death by damage.

forgot to add Wight...my goof.

so lets tally this up:

An Insectiod Thri-Kreen Wight Monk//Ninja, Fighter, Psi Warrior, Initiate of Dragonic Secrets, and Acolyte of the Fist.

Signmaker
2009-11-25, 06:53 PM
What is wight supposed to help you do in this scenario? *curious*

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 06:54 PM
forgot to add Wight...my goof.

so lets tally this up:

An Insectiod Thri-Kreen Wight Monk//Ninja, Fighter, Psi Warrior, Initiate of Dragonic Secrets, and Acolyte of the Fist.

Still going to get your ass whupped.

Need a primary arcane caster, really, and Psiwarrior does not count.

Don't forget, you came to the playground for advice - if you choose not to listen to it, then it's completely your fault when you get embarrassed at the game table.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 06:55 PM
What is wight supposed to help you do in this scenario? *curious*

Wight grants Immunity to Massive damage and negative levels with its attacks

Signmaker
2009-11-25, 06:58 PM
Wight grants Immunity to Massive damage and negative levels with its attacks

I...see.

How does this help against someone *potentially immune to death by damage?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 07:00 PM
I...see.

How does this help against someone immune to death by damage?

I mean its a good character, I think

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-25, 07:06 PM
Teleport through Time and kill him before he becomes a threat. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b)

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 07:08 PM
Wight grants Immunity to Massive damage and negative levels with its attacks

No, it's save based, which means you might as well ignore it at level 100. Not only that, didn't you say the guy was a demi lich, and thus immune to negative energy crap? ::rolls eyes::

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 07:09 PM
Teleport through Time and kill him before he becomes a threat. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b)

really?? The idea of time teleportation?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 07:11 PM
No, it's save based, which means you might as well ignore it at level 100. Not only that, didn't you say the guy was a demi lich, and thus immune to negative energy crap? ::rolls eyes::

screw it...

I'll just accept he the best and let him gloat...

btw, he accepted the 30th level face off. He picked commoner for me

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 07:13 PM
screw it...

I'll just accept he the best and let him gloat...

btw, he accepted the 30th level face off. He picked commoner for me

Or alternatively, you could start listening to some of the advice going around here....<shrug>.

No skin off my nose.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 07:16 PM
Or alternatively, you could start listening to some of the advice going around here....<shrug>.

No skin off my nose.

allright. I'll listen

taltamir
2009-11-25, 07:17 PM
op, there are many things broken about epic, by far the most broken is epic spell casting.
The way it is broken your LEVEL AND CLASS ARE IRRELEVANT!
why? because of infinite mitigation. Infinite mitigation gives you infinite inherant bonuses, to everything. You have an infinite HP, AC, STR, DEX, CON, WIS, CHA, INT, etc etc... infinite int btw means that when you hit level 22 you get infinite skill points, so you maxed out every skill in existance too... which can also get infinite boosts via magic... not to mention your infinite hordes of infinite creatures, like infinite solars / whatever under your command and of your creation. You can use magic to create infinite dragons, etc...

Heck, you will not even FACE the enemy... you are in your own demiplane where not even a GOD can get in without your permission... you don't leave, you just send out your infinite minions to kill the enemy.

The game is beyond broken at level 21+...
There are a lot of "I win" buttons... the question then becomes "did both of us do the legwork". Because if one of you doesn't have "inifinite stats" the other can take whatever he is dishing, then punch him to death the next round..

generally though, there are a lot of UN resistable "i wins" that it just comes down to initiative. If you both did your work right.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 07:27 PM
okay.

He has me running a commoner and I have him running as a merchant.

I have 30 lvs to make a cool character

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-25, 07:28 PM
Should have told your friend to be a man and do it at level 1.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 07:32 PM
Here's the thing: 30th level with "play through" effect makes it a real challenge

UglyPanda
2009-11-25, 07:43 PM
Chicken-infested (feat, dragon magazine).

It's the only possible thing that a commoner can do that an expert can't. Unless the goal is to make less money.

And your friend isn't that smart. You're just not trying.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-25, 07:45 PM
30th level Commoner?

1; Get Use Magic Device as a trained skill, there's at least one feat that does it.
2. Max out ranks in Use Magic Device.
3. Get a +30 competence item of UMD, every other skill-stacking ability you can find.
4. Buy staves containing your favorite CL-dependent spells.
5. Take advantage of UMD to have ridiculously powerful spells cast of of your staff.
6. ???
7. Profit!

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 08:02 PM
the actual goal is combat. However, commonoid (humanoid commoner gestalt) is supposedly a good combo. We can multiclass and use prestige classes

Zovc
2009-11-25, 08:08 PM
the actual goal is combat. However, commonoid (humanoid commoner gestalt) is supposedly a good combo. We can multiclass and use prestige classes

You don't seem to understand, normal spells laugh at combat. Epic spells are worse.

Huanoid//Comoner is a terrible gestalt, you should stop listening to whoever told you that--I think they're toying with you.

If you can multiclass and use prestige classes, that's excellent with 100 levels. Just take as many levels of as many classes with spellcasting as you can, then put Geomancer 10 on top, you can use Wisdom as your primary stat and boost up your spellcasting for every class you have up to 9th level spells and raise your will save. Not only that, but you can cast every 9th-level or lower spell with a holy symbol instead of material components and in armor so long as you have a level in Cleric.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 08:11 PM
You don't seem to understand, normal spells laugh at combat. Epic spells are worse.

Huanoid//Comoner is a terrible gestalt, you should stop listening to whoever told you that--I think they're toying with you.

If you can multiclass and use prestige classes, that's excellent with 100 levels. Just take as many levels of as many classes with spellcasting as you can, then put Geomancer 10 on top, you can use Wisdom as your primary stat and boost up your spellcasting for every class you have up to 9th level spells and raise your will save. Not only that, but you can cast every 9th-level or lower spell with a holy symbol instead of material components and in armor so long as you have a level in Cleric.

its 30th level...

The term combat is a genericon, not a reality.

note: however, ToB does give combat a slight edge in "equality" of casters.

Temet Nosce
2009-11-25, 08:19 PM
its 30th level...

The term combat is a genericon, not a reality.

note: however, ToB does give combat a slight edge in "equality" of casters.

So. 30th level now starting with commoner. Great, exactly the same thing. Commoner 1/any full casting class 21/who cares. Epic spellcasting is broken from the start, all those extra levels were irrelevant anyways.

Proceed to infinite epic spellcasting mitigation followed by laughing at your enemies puny attempts to do anything to you.

Do you seriously not get it? Epic spellcasting is a single feat which is more powerful than well... basically the entire game, with exceptions for things like Pun Pun.

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 08:21 PM
Alright, if we're going to do this, let's get serious about it.

So: let me see if I've got this straight -

Level 30 gestalt, anything from a published source goes, with the following exceptions:

1. No divine ranks,
2. no Pun Pun types,
3. no instant kill spells,
4. no time stop,
5. no loop effects
6. Maximum # of Prestige classes: 2
7. Any Templates allowed.
8. No CR races >20, no dragons

Basically, if all of the above rules are in effect, it's going to come down to who wins initiative and who knows the epic spellcasting rules better.

See if you can get epic spell casting banned - that makes things MUCH easier on you.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 08:23 PM
So. 30th level now starting with commoner. Great, exactly the same thing. Commoner 1/any full casting class 21/who cares. Epic spellcasting is broken from the start, all those extra levels were irrelevant anyways.

Proceed to infinite epic spellcasting mitigation followed by laughing at your enemies puny attempts to do anything to you.

Do you seriously not get it? Epic spellcasting is a single feat which is more powerful than well... basically the entire game, with exceptions for things like Pun Pun.

... its almost too easy?

Temet Nosce
2009-11-25, 08:28 PM
... its almost too easy?

It is to easy, but that's what epic spellcasting does. So either get it banned as someone else suggested (really, why in the world is this taking place at these levels anyways? Use the ToS rules instead) or abuse it more and better than your opponent.

erikun
2009-11-25, 08:36 PM
Create a new plane, give it the null magic and null psionics properities. Make it intelligent and capable or transforming into a golem.

At the beginning of combat, command your golem-plane to grapple your opponent. The Colossal+10000 size difference should allow it to win. (Most wizards won't think to have a huge grapple modifier.) Then, command the golem-plane to turn back into a plane as a move action.

Enemy wizard is now trapped on said plane. They never got a chance to take an action, so even Freedom of Movement didn't allow them a chance to escape. None of their magic works, not even epic, and neither do psionics. If they were a deity, they might be able to get off, but your opponent specifically banned divine ranks.

I'm sure there are ways around it, but summoning an entire transforming plane to neutralize your opponent is pretty awesome.


Oh, we're doing Commoners now?

I agree with Use Magic Device abuse. It's the most powerful a commoner can be, and if you can make it a permanent class skill, you can level it up through any prestige classes. I'm not sure what the best classes for that are, but you can take Psionic Talent (feat) > War Mind (PrC) > Psionic Body (feat) > Psion Uncarnate (PrC). It probably won't be very powerful, but it's an example of what you can do with just a base Commoner class.

Ubercharging incorporeal wielding Staffs of Power? That's pretty good for a Commoner. :smallwink:

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 08:47 PM
hold on...Maug from Fiend Folio only has 3LA and is a construct!!!???

couldn't a Maug Commoner1 Cleric of Hextor//Crusader 20 Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 Prestige class 9 be a good combo?

ravenkith
2009-11-25, 09:10 PM
hold on...Maug from Fiend Folio only has 3LA and is a construct!!!???

couldn't a Maug Commoner1 Cleric of Hextor//Crusader 20 Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 Prestige class 9 be a good combo?

::facepalm::

Why are you obsessing about being a beatstick?

Past epic, beatsticks SUCK.

Chrono22
2009-11-25, 09:14 PM
Really, just make a well-made level 20 character and save yourself the effort of doing 80 more levels. That's all it takes to win.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 09:19 PM
::facepalm::

Why are you obsessing about being a beatstick?

Past epic, beatsticks SUCK.

he just banned epic spellcasting...

Plus, I'm a full spellcaster...I just can melee as well...

erikun
2009-11-25, 09:23 PM
hold on...Maug from Fiend Folio only has 3LA and is a construct!!!???
Does Maug have racial hit die? Because that cuts into your Effective Character Level, too. Someone with +3 LA, 2 RHD, and a 1st level fighter would be ECL 6.

Although if one side is full caster and the other has the LA/RHD/beatstick, I guess it really doesn't matter.

Wait, you have the Fiend Folio? Check out the Ethergaunts. +10 INT for around an ECL 17. Just use the other 13 levels for beatstick of choice and go Wizard 30 on the other side.

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-25, 09:26 PM
Or just go Wizard//psion, shapechange into a beatstick form with Schism manifesting.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 09:30 PM
Does Maug have racial hit die? Because that cuts into your Effective Character Level, too. Someone with +3 LA, 2 RHD, and a 1st level fighter would be ECL 6.

Although if one side is full caster and the other has the LA/RHD/beatstick, I guess it really doesn't matter.

Wait, you have the Fiend Folio? Check out the Ethergaunts. +10 INT for around an ECL 17. Just use the other 13 levels for beatstick of choice and go Wizard 30 on the other side.

1. you hit the nail EXACTLY on the head...

2. like I said...

3. Not bad...Which one should I use and would a Wizard//Duskblade work well?

Tyndmyr
2009-11-25, 09:45 PM
Yeah, that.

Honestly I'd say you're probably better off throwing glitter at each other and going "I killed you with my magical 100 doom apocalypse!" "Nuh uh!" "Uh huh!"

3.5 shatters when you hit EARLY epic levels. Level 100 is beyond the point of silly and ridiculous in terms of what you can do.

I'd just be amused at the length of the character sheet.

Bonus fun: Make it gestalt.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-25, 09:47 PM
he just banned epic spellcasting...

Plus, I'm a full spellcaster...I just can melee as well...

Dude, beatsticks STILL suck past epic. Epic casting or not. You should be pretty much immortal to actual hp damage at this point.

Remember the ridiculous amount of contingencies? Use them. Also, at this point, you should probably have essentially every metamagic worth having.

Go first. Or cast celerity. Whatever. Then, destroy the entire plane, just to be sure.

erikun
2009-11-25, 10:01 PM
3. Not bad...Which one should I use and would a Wizard//Duskblade work well?
Actually, I'm getting myself confused with multiple conversations. :smalltongue: Will this be gestalt or not? Are we still sticking with commoner?

A quick google search indicates that the Black Ethergaunt has 16 HD and +4 LA, and has both 17th level spellcasting and +20 INT. If you're sticking with single class, you can spend the last 10 levels on pure prestige classes, such an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or Incantrix.

If you'd rather go beatstick, you'll want something that can use an absurd INT. Duskblade will allow channeling those Greater Dispellings and Disintegrates through your sword (I think) while the Factorium gets a lot of millage from INT bonuses.

If you're gestalt, then Ethergaunt 20/Incantrix 10//beatstick will work wonders.

If you need commoner levels, just take one and go into prestige.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 10:09 PM
Actually, I'm getting myself confused with multiple conversations. :smalltongue: Will this be gestalt or not? Are we still sticking with commoner?

A quick google search indicates that the Black Ethergaunt has 16 HD and +4 LA, and has both 17th level spellcasting and +20 INT. If you're sticking with single class, you can spend the last 10 levels on pure prestige classes, such an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or Incantrix.

If you'd rather go beatstick, you'll want something that can use an absurd INT. Duskblade will allow channeling those Greater Dispellings and Disintegrates through your sword (I think) while the Factorium gets a lot of millage from INT bonuses.

If you're gestalt, then Ethergaunt 20/Incantrix 10//beatstick will work wonders.

If you need commoner levels, just take one and go into prestige.

1. yes, and no. He said screw it and just build 30th lv.
2. As a gestalt, with int as the basis, this'll be fun...
3.The duskblade kix azz
4. what book is Incantrix from?

erikun
2009-11-25, 10:14 PM
Right here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803) Free metamagic and free metamagic reducers!

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is in Complete Arcane, and has the ability to drop "veils" (basically, Prismatic Walls) as an immediate action. Both Incantrix and Iot7V are considered some of the ultimate cheese for wizard PrC.

I'm not sure if Duskblade 20+ offers you much, especially next to an epic wizard. You might consider Duskblade 20/Factorium 10 on the other side. I know Factorium allow you to add your INT modifier to various checks (including melee) after a certain level.

Also, Warblade (Tome of Battle). Diamond Mind maneuvers. Use your Concentration check in place of a savings throw! (You'll need to refresh the maneuver to do it again, though.)

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 10:23 PM
Incantrix is nice...

and with Duskblade's Arcane Strike with basically any 20th level wizard spell, I can finally beat him like a drum.

However, he still claims "Immunity to Magic"

How exactly do I ovecome that 1?

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-25, 10:28 PM
Find out exactly how he's doing it.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-25, 10:28 PM
Incantrix is nice...

and with Duskblade's Arcane Strike with basically any 20th level wizard spell, I can finally beat him like a drum.

However, he still claims "Immunity to Magic"

How exactly do I ovecome that 1?

Find out exactly what ability he thinks is giving 'Immunity to Magic'. If it's the Demilich, use the spell that removes CL limits then obliterate him with Shatter spam - a Twinned Maximized Empowered Shatter at CL30 is hilarious. If it's anything else, a simple No-SR Conjuration will bypass it.

erikun
2009-11-25, 10:33 PM
Agreed. With epic spellcasting, I would think that designing an "Epic Globe of Invulnerability" would prevent all spells, or at least all non-epic spells. With divine ranks, you could get immunity to spells. With epic psionics, same thing.

But with no divine ranks and no epic spellcasting? I don't see how that's even possible. You'll want to ask him to confirm those two are still in effect.

If epic spellcasting is allowed, just devise an Epic Antimagic Field and channel it through your sword. :smalltongue: I'm not sure, but I think an epic Duskblade can channel epic spells. Just make sure you have a way to bypass wizard miss chances. (True Seeing + force damage with your sword to hit ethereal)

Signmaker
2009-11-25, 10:36 PM
Two ways to go about this challenge: Casting or Sniping.

Why sniping? Because, with epic wealth, you're liable to have a H/MS high enough that he'll never find you. Use Darkstalker to remove common detection forms, and find other ways to block things like touchsight and mindsight.

Then proceed to UMD-snipe him with disjunctions and dispel checks until he's stripped of all his goodies. Follow this up with your standard "you die" plan.

So while beatsticks suck past epic, I'd like to think that epic rogues are quite capable at surviving.

Oh. If you do follow this plan, do NOT use invisibility. Illusion piercing is a static Spot check, so you're far better off hiding the mundane way. That is to say, get Camo+HiPS, and you should be fine. Fine being a relative term meaning "better off than an ubercharger, who doesn't have even a ghost of a chance".

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 10:41 PM
Its SR so high Boccob couldn't get through...

I need a way to one, get an uber high SR to counter his crap, and strip his.


Any ideas?

Yahzi
2009-11-25, 10:43 PM
How do I test my skill against him?
Level 1.

If you can win 9 out of 10 matches at level 1, you are better. To prove your complete uberness, allow him to create new chars for each battle (while you keep the same one).

Anybody want to suggest what the best all-around lvl 1 char is?

Signmaker
2009-11-25, 10:46 PM
Level 1.

If you can win 9 out of 10 matches at level 1, you are better. To prove your complete uberness, allow him to create new chars for each battle (while you keep the same one).

Anybody want to suggest what the best all-around lvl 1 char is?

As in, "You Die"?

For 1v1, Olo's Power Word Pain kobold commoner.

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-25, 10:47 PM
Its SR so high Boccob couldn't get through...

I need a way to one, get an uber high SR to counter his crap, and strip his.


Any ideas?


Just use SR: No spells like Orb of X to get around that.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 10:49 PM
As in, "You Die"?

For 1v1, Olo's Power Word Pain kobold commoner.

WHAT!!??

Kobolds die too easy, unless its PunPun

Signmaker
2009-11-25, 10:51 PM
WHAT!!??

Kobolds die too easy, unless its PunPun

You apparently haven't seen the PWP Kobold. If it wins init, you're dead. No save. Just sheer damage.

erikun
2009-11-25, 10:51 PM
Use SR: No spells. The Orb of X line from Complete Arcane works well for this, as it caps at 15d6 and requires just a ranged touch attack.

Heck, if that's is only defense, he's not much of a threat. Black Tentacles, Acid Fog, etc. will either pin him down or force him to waste spells repeatedly teleporting out of dangerous areas. Mwhoever’s Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm) doesn't use a SR check and shuts down all his magical defenses.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 11:05 PM
Use SR: No spells. The Orb of X line from Complete Arcane works well for this, as it caps at 15d6 and requires just a ranged touch attack.

Heck, if that's is only defense, he's not much of a threat. Black Tentacles, Acid Fog, etc. will either pin him down or force him to waste spells repeatedly teleporting out of dangerous areas. Mwhoever’s Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm) doesn't use a SR check and shuts down all his magical defenses.

alrighty. Now, considering the elemental "immunity" he has, thanks to Energy Resistances, some spells aren't entirely useful. Plus his damage reductions are going to be a pain. I want to use a Kopesh, but the slashing damage is less than liked

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-25, 11:10 PM
Orb of Force. Metamagic it out. Not to mention, Searing Spell. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6825358&postcount=5) for the shenanigans you can pull.

Signmaker
2009-11-25, 11:12 PM
Orb of Force. Metamagic it out. Not to mention, Searing Spell. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6825358&postcount=5) for the shenanigans you can pull.

I'm assuming we're still talking epic here, so...

Forceward. Yay immunity to force effects. Couple with every other energy immunity and the previously mentioned Delay Death combo.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 11:19 PM
Orb of Force. Metamagic it out. Not to mention, Searing Spell. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6825358&postcount=5) for the shenanigans you can pull.

is that the only spell I can do? He cannot be disrupted...so thats out. He's immune to fire and resistant to everything else, he takes no melee damage, and has a spellcraft of over 250

erikun
2009-11-25, 11:19 PM
Check out this thread for various untyped damage. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132860) It doesn't necessarily consider spell resistance, though.

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-25, 11:21 PM
is that the only spell I can do? He cannot be disrupted...so thats out. He's immune to fire and resistant to everything else, he takes no melee damage, and has a spellcraft of over 250

Searing Spell does 1/2 damage to anything normally immune to fire.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-25, 11:24 PM
Check out this thread for various untyped damage. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132860) It doesn't necessarily consider spell resistance, though.

He's not resistant to Sonic...

Doc Roc
2009-11-26, 12:09 AM
Just let me make you a character. :|

Signmaker
2009-11-26, 12:16 AM
Bad Jake! No handing howitzers out for the hell of it!

Wings of Peace
2009-11-26, 12:55 AM
You have 100 levels... at that point your build hardly even matters. Hell if it makes you feel better though

Beguiler 6/Prestige Ranger 5/Prestige Paladin of the Arcane Order 4/Planar Shepard 10 (Dal-Quor)/Rainbow Servant 10/Spell Dancer 1/Cleric 2/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Ardent 1/Subverted Psion 1/Dweomer Keeper 5/Whatever else you want...

Reasons you can do this: Alternate-Source Spell (Dragon Magazine)

Feats you're taking because they're cool: Initiate of Mystra, Practiced Manifester, oh yeah and pre-quisite feats

Eldariel
2009-11-26, 01:03 AM
Take 11 levels of Factotum; that makes SR and similar crap trivial. Factotum is also a good idea 'cause it allows you to make enough standard actions to kill him as long as you have the capability to kill him. The class is from Dungeonscape, though you should use Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) a bit to be slightly stronger.

And yeah, without Epic Spellcasting to generate Wards, Torrent of Stones is just about unstoppable outside contingent spells, crafted contingencies and countermagic. Supernatural Spell it (Dweomerkeeper from CDiv Web Enhancement is a good idea anyways) to limit 'er to Contingencies and yeah... Oh yeah, Supernatural Spell ignores SR for spells that offer it too. Something like that.

Wings of Peace
2009-11-26, 02:01 AM
Born of Three Thunders Explosive Persistent Supernatural Apocalypse From the Sky

Doc Roc
2009-11-26, 03:14 AM
Or just mindrape some convenient pantheons.

AgentPaper
2009-11-26, 03:17 AM
Its SR so high Boccob couldn't get through...

Y'know, that's really not saying much. At all. A single level 20 wizard, with the right prestige classes, items, feats and spells can take on the entire DnD pantheon at once. Heck, a level 20 commoner could probably do it with just UMD and his WBL. :smallamused:

Superglucose
2009-11-26, 03:30 AM
I'm assuming we're still talking epic here, so...

Forceward. Yay immunity to force effects. Couple with every other energy immunity and the previously mentioned Delay Death combo.
Disjunction?

No, seriously, disjunction? It's SR: No, will end every single effect he's got up, and the only (literally only) concern is that he might be packing Artifact. So even if he gets Forceward up, BAM! It's gone. Immediately. Nothing he can do.

Then feel free to hit him with Orb of Whatever. I say whatever because his elemental resistances are likely down as well since they're *probably* spell effects (though to be fair demilich makes me think he'll be immune to cold).

Doc Roc
2009-11-26, 03:36 AM
Y'know, that's really not saying much. At all. A single level 20 wizard, with the right prestige classes, items, feats and spells can take on the entire DnD pantheon at once. Heck, a level 20 commoner could probably do it with just UMD and his WBL. :smallamused:

Not actually as trivial as people like to say it is. A number of SDAs are No-Save-Just-Die effects. You basically have to kill them before they get an action, which is hard, because they get infinite wealth and infinite contingencies.

Narazil
2009-11-26, 04:09 AM
Not actually as trivial as people like to say it is. A number of SDAs are No-Save-Just-Die effects. You basically have to kill them before they get an action, which is hard, because they get infinite wealth and infinite contingencies.

Alter Reality (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Alter_Reality_(Divine_Ability)) is a bitch.

Also, I can't possibly begin to comprehend how much my IQ has dropped by reading this thread.
Instead of constantly changing the conditions of the fight, or worrying about your opponent, just use one of the gazillions "lulz I go first and win, no save" methods people have posted here.
Your friend is obviously not a very good optimizer, so just beat him already and get on with it.
If you're at level 30 and you're not immune to everything, obviously something will hit you. Just hit him with everything 'till you find his weaknesses (there're plenty of ways to break action economy completely by level 30). Bonus if you already know what hits him.

Ice&Fire
2009-11-26, 04:37 AM
Or he's trolling all of you

Killer Angel
2009-11-26, 04:43 AM
Or he's trolling all of you

It's a possibility, but he posted a lot in this thread. His first post after registering, was to open this thread, so I believe it's more a real issue for him.
At least he's spending some effort in it. :smallwink:

Temet Nosce
2009-11-26, 07:23 AM
Or he's trolling all of you

If this was trolling then tip of my hat to the Op, because until you brought that up it didn't even occur to me.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 10:34 AM
Had an epiphany: 20 levels druid//cleric gestalt, 5 levels Hierophant, 1 level Monk, and 4 levels of any other Nature-Based Divine Prestige Class

Wildshape into a Colossal Great Wyrm Dragon X (Colossal Wildshape+Dragon Wildshape) then use cleric buff spells and druid buff spells to become a Dragonic Terror.

the 1 monk dip allows Wis to AC, and Druid//Cleric is a good combo with the feat "Natural Spell" because I can then cast pretty much any divine spell as an animal or a dragon. And if I wildshape into a dragon, I do (hopefully) gain the dragon's effective sorcerer casting in my wildshaped form

Granted: that's 4 feats, but at 30th, who cares?

ravenkith
2009-11-26, 01:28 PM
Had an epiphany: 20 levels druid//cleric gestalt, 5 levels Hierophant, 1 level Monk, and 4 levels of any other Nature-Based Divine Prestige Class

Wildshape into a Colossal Great Wyrm Dragon X (Colossal Wildshape+Dragon Wildshape) then use cleric buff spells and druid buff spells to become a Dragonic Terror.

the 1 monk dip allows Wis to AC, and Druid//Cleric is a good combo with the feat "Natural Spell" because I can then cast pretty much any divine spell as an animal or a dragon. And if I wildshape into a dragon, I do (hopefully) gain the dragon's effective sorcerer casting in my wildshaped form

Granted: that's 4 feats, but at 30th, who cares?

No.

Seriously no.

Just no.

Stop obsessing about physical stuff.

Melee = Lose. Do you understand? If you try to beat him to death, you lose.

Any kind of melee attack past about level 15 is just plain not as good as using that same action to cast a spell.

Don't waste time changing into a dragon.

Oh, and Arcane is better than divine.

josh13905
2009-11-26, 01:33 PM
I believe he said his opponent was immune to magic...

Anyways all you have to do is be exactly what he is and then it's 50 50 :)

ravenkith
2009-11-26, 01:49 PM
I believe he said his opponent was immune to magic...

Anyways all you have to do is be exactly what he is and then it's 50 50 :)

His opponent is not immune to magic, it just has an arbitrarily high SR.

The guy just THINKS this means he is immune to magic.

Eldritch_Ent
2009-11-26, 03:20 PM
is that the only spell I can do? He cannot be disrupted...so thats out. He's immune to fire and resistant to everything else, he takes no melee damage, and has a spellcraft of over 250

I thought you said he banned Epic Spellcasting earlier?

Make your friend write down a list of the rules so they stop shifting the goalposts so we can help you.

It doesn't matter how high his SR is. Some epic (and nonepic) golems simply have "SR: Yes" but there's still so many ways to get around that. Spell resistance doesn't apply to all spells. In fact, all the spells you'll want to be using are the SR: No spells, especially in this case.

You could, for example, take Archmage and elemental mastery/arcane reach. Use an Empowered Maximized Intensified Shivering touch on him. Suddenly, you're dealing 56 Dex damage on a succesful touch attack. Quickened True Strike and a few other spells to guarantee it hits. Change it to, say, sonic subtype- even elemental immunity to Sonic damage won't help- the only thing that can resist ability damage of that sort.

Also take Initiate of the sevenfold veil. For a minimum of seven rounds, he cannot kill you unless he's using some sort of RKV "infinite quickened actions" nonsense. Especially if he didn't bother taking all seven of the anti-prismatic-wall spells for his spell slots, which he will probably be rationing due to him being a sorceror. (If he failed to take even one of those spells and something like Shadow Evocation or the like to cover his bases, you can simply laugh off his attacks by throwing up that veil + violet veil.)

TalonDemonKing
2009-11-26, 03:36 PM
Dumb idea... But if their spell casters, why not get a spell that throws him in some cursed full-plate + shield? That'd hurt their ability to cast spells, due to arcane failure, right?

The Glyphstone
2009-11-26, 03:37 PM
Dumb idea... But if their spell casters, why not get a spell that throws him in some cursed full-plate + shield? That'd hurt their ability to cast spells, due to arcane failure, right?

If a spell existed that could do that, sure. But it doesn't. The closest thing is the Call Armor PsyWar power, but that only works on you.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 03:50 PM
What about a Warlock//Sorcerer and use Fiendish Heritage feats and be a Tiefling or a Fey'ari. Then simply focus on Hellfire Warlock instead of a full caster boost. Or take Dragonfire Adept instead of Sorcerer and utilize the "infinite" usages of invocations.

Plan B is a Bard//Expert20 Wizard10 and focus all of my feats and energy into Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, and Knowledge checks. Talk my way into having him blow himself up.

Milskidasith
2009-11-26, 03:51 PM
No. Full casting. Stop trying out stuff that isn't full casting, because it is worthless.

And why take 20 levels of expert? That's just useless.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-26, 03:53 PM
Almost as bad - infinite usage of abilities means nothing to you, as this won't be an endurance fight. In a duel, the goal is to kill the opponent as soon as possible, not survive as long as possible. invocations are balanced for their infinite usage by being significantly weaker than spells gained at the same level.

Diplomacy doesn't work on PCs by RAW.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 04:04 PM
So a Sorcerer//Warlock 20 Hellfire Warlock 10 wouldn't be strong enough?

I thought of also doing a Cloistered Cleric//Divine Bard of Olidamara. He's undead, thus can be turned (albeit has a resistance to such) and therefore can take damage.

Or possibly just go with a Rakshasa drider and simply use a prestige class

The Glyphstone
2009-11-26, 04:06 PM
Or possibly just go with a Rakshasa drider and simply use a prestige class

A what now?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 04:13 PM
A what now?

Rakshasa as the base race, and Drider as the template. That is a 20th ECL monster. Then use 10lvs in any prestige classes

Sindriss
2009-11-26, 04:34 PM
This seems kind of pointless. The optimizers have already provided you with at least a dozen viable options to defeating some demi lich who thinks he is immune to magic. But you are not listening to their advice at all.

Zovc
2009-11-26, 04:36 PM
This seems kind of pointless. The optimizers have already provided you with at least a dozen viable options to defeating some demi lich who thinks he is immune to magic. But you are not listening to their advice at all.

This is why I've gone from participating in the thread to watching and laughing.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 04:39 PM
Okay. Let me set parameters

No Archmage or Archmage-like classes

No Book Keepers

No Cheap "No Save" kills

fair enough?

Temet Nosce
2009-11-26, 04:41 PM
This is why I've gone from participating in the thread to watching and laughing.

Yeah, it's funny in a "Wait, did he really...", way.

erikun
2009-11-26, 05:00 PM
I would suggest making several of the builds you mentioned, and asking your friend to make several for himself. Then just make a day out of blasting each other with different epic characters. :smallbiggrin: No, seriously. By now, it seems like it would be more interesting to just start throwing various ideas at each other to see how they pan out.

Also, get a full list of what is/is not allowed. The lists keep changing. :smallfrown:

While a meleer isn't a "bad thing", you'll run into frustration when your opponent has a 98% miss chance, flight, and immunity to all ranged weaponry. Making one or two would be a nice experiment, but unfortunately doesn't fair well in epic D&D levels.

Warlock needs to beat SR, so you'll need to disjunct anyways first.

Diplomancy doesn't work on PCs. (Although using Diplomancy on various high-CR creatures in the various MMs would be an amusing "solution".)

Rakshasa/Sorcerer would be similar to the Ethergaunt/Wizard from before, except less powerful. A Rakshasa is ECL 14 (+7 LA, 7 RHD) and only has 7th level spellcasting, so a Rakshasa Sorcerer 16 would only be a level 23 caster. I'm not sure why you'd add Drider to the mix (besides making a very weird 8-legged cat).

Turning doesn't deal damage, and it would only destroy him if you used the Sun domain ability. Even then, only if you rolled well, and only if you're a full Cleric 30. Besides, that's basically a "no save just die" ability.

Signmaker
2009-11-26, 05:05 PM
Okay. Let me set parameters

No Archmage or Archmage-like classes

No Book Keepers

No Cheap "No Save" kills

fair enough?

This is epic. You can't avoid book keeping, because there's a mandatory crapton of it.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-26, 05:12 PM
What are you defining as an 'Archmage-like class', and why are you banned from using it? If this is a test of who can build better characters, there shouldn't be one-sided restrictions.

Grey Elf Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Hathran Elder 15//Factotum 30. Pump INT. Spam Cunning Surge to get a ridiculous number of standard actions in one turn. Go first. Win.

root9125
2009-11-26, 05:36 PM
Yeah, it's funny in a "Wait, did he really...", way.

I'm really enjoying the "wait, no, the rules changed!" posts. The fact that the OP's not *listening* to anyone makes them irrelevant. In fact, I don't think a single rule-change past the No Epic Spellcasting one has made any difference to any build.

If the OP chooses this post to read (he seems to pick one in thirty or so...):

HEY! IF YOU HAVE TO HIT HIM WITH A SHINY PIECE OF METAL, YOU'VE ALREADY LOST!

root9125
2009-11-26, 05:38 PM
Diplomancy doesn't work on PCs. (Although using Diplomancy on various high-CR creatures in the various MMs would be an amusing "solution".)

At the DM's discretion, right? Or is that written somewhere?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 09:24 PM
By "No book keeping" i mean no wizard, archivist, stuff with actual spellbooks. Jeezus. Spellbooks are clumsy paperweights in my humble opinion.

By "No ArchMage-like" i mean no "filler classes" with cheesy powers that are circumstantial at best.

Let me give a list of my fave classes:

Sorcerer
Bard
Soulknife
Warlock
Favored Soul
Shugenja
Samurai
Duskblade
Hexblade
Druid
Crusader
Warblade
Monk
Cleric

Let me also give my fave races:
Goliath
Fey'Ari
Winged Elf
Wight
Maug
Aasamir
Tiefling
Deepwyrm Half-Drow
Grey Dwarf
Mohrg
Eladrin
Elan
Dromite
Warforged

let's cut the BS and use this list, eh?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 09:36 PM
Okay. Let me set parameters

No Archmage or Archmage-like classes

No Book Keepers

No Cheap "No Save" kills

fair enough?

All i was doing was tightening the scope, not changing the target altogether. These are MY personal choices. If I run a char, this is my rules. On top of the earlier stated rules, I follow these. It saves me time and frustration of having a character with set limits. I like bard for its simplicity. I like classes like this for the simplicity. And I hate wizards because they are librarians who lug around thick heavy paperweights and are nice easy targets with low hit points and no AC. Yes I get that "Arcane Leads the Way," but what does that make of D&D...

Does that mean a fighter who shys from Arcane teachings or a Cleric of Pelor who shows true devotion to his god is any less than some librarian who can read a f***ing book? No. These were put into D&D so people like me can enjoy running a character with a little more flavor. I know that yes, this is a duel, but that changes nothing. A good character isn't simply measured in "What's the damage you can do," but in his level of heart and in the level of emotion and true gutso a palayer puts into him.

In the end, I regret opening this thread, but I now realize it opened my eyes to the true evils of Powergamming. I thank each and every one of you who posted on this thread giving me advice, but for once, I feel I should step back, and with a cooler head run the duel on Monday.

So if anyone who reads this is disgusted in any way, I appologize in advance and you can PM me your complaints at any time.

Temet Nosce
2009-11-26, 09:39 PM
You sir, are comedy gold.

Flickerdart
2009-11-26, 09:42 PM
A Cleric knows all Cleric spells. If that's not unnecessary book-keeping, I don't know what is.

Eldariel
2009-11-26, 09:42 PM
Ach! Hans, run! It's the green-skinned regenerating powergamer! Nevermind, just run!

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 09:54 PM
A Cleric knows all Cleric spells. If that's not unnecessary book-keeping, I don't know what is.

I actually don't carry EVERY book that contains cleric spells. What I do is simply take a notebook and copy down the spells I like and will use most often, and only use those.

and to whoever said I was "comedy gold," I thank you, but I actually meant all of those words. I feel so strongly about D&D that I would LOVE to DM a campaign in my home town if there simply were more D&D players out there.

And the Green Powergammer joke ran its course into an Adamantine Spiked Wall at a x4 charge and takes 256d12 in piercing and bad humor damage

Eldariel
2009-11-26, 09:55 PM
And the Green Powergammer joke ran its course into an Adamantine Spiked Wall at a x4 charge and takes 256d12 in piercing and bad humor damage

I take you don't play MTG then? 'cause you really have to be an MTG player to get it; sorry :smallredface:

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 10:04 PM
I take you don't play MTG then? 'cause you really have to be an MTG player to get it; sorry :smallredface:

I was a four time city champion running both a black Nightmare deck and a Blue/White/Black artifact overrun deck, thank you very much. :smallbiggrin:

However, that was many many years ago, so forgive me, my good chap. :P

Eldariel
2009-11-26, 10:06 PM
I was a four time city champion running both a black Nightmare deck and a Blue/White/Black artifact overrun deck, thank you very much. :smallbiggrin:

However, that was many many years ago, so forgive me, my good chap. :P

I'd just have imagined an MTG player would recognize the most famous flavor text in the game. O.o Pardon me, then.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 10:50 PM
point taken.

Now can we return to the topic at hand: My 30th level duel?

Superglucose
2009-11-26, 11:03 PM
By "No book keeping" i mean no wizard, archivist, stuff with actual spellbooks. Jeezus. Spellbooks are clumsy paperweights in my humble opinion.

By "No ArchMage-like" i mean no "filler classes" with cheesy powers that are circumstantial at best.

Let me give a list of my fave classes:

Sorcerer
Bard
Soulknife
Warlock
Favored Soul
Shugenja
Samurai
Duskblade
Hexblade
Druid
Crusader
Warblade
Monk
Cleric

Let me also give my fave races:
Goliath
Fey'Ari
Winged Elf
Wight
Maug
Aasamir
Tiefling
Deepwyrm Half-Drow
Grey Dwarf
Mohrg
Eladrin
Elan
Dromite
Warforged

let's cut the BS and use this list, eh?


Okay. Let me set parameters

No Archmage or Archmage-like classes

No Book Keepers

No Cheap "No Save" kills

fair enough?

Sure.

20 Sorceror 1 Barbarian 8 Ranger Tiefling (because without "archmage-like classes" there's nothing that matters after you hit the twentieth level).

How to bypass arbitrarily high SR: cast "Mage's Disjunction"

How to kill: "Orb Of" spells

Done.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 11:12 PM
Sure.

20 Sorceror 1 Barbarian 8 Ranger Tiefling (because without "archmage-like classes" there's nothing that matters after you hit the twentieth level).

How to bypass arbitrarily high SR: cast "Mage's Disjunction"

How to kill: "Orb Of" spells

Done.

Barbarian?
and I meant with No-Archmage that I don't want classes LIKE archmage

Deth Muncher
2009-11-26, 11:16 PM
Lolz, Lurgoyf.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 11:29 PM
huh???????????

averagejoe
2009-11-26, 11:53 PM
huh???????????

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGICE/lhurgoyf.jpg

Note the flavor text.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 11:56 PM
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGICE/lhurgoyf.jpg

Note the flavor text.

lol.....
I don't run green

The Glyphstone
2009-11-27, 12:22 AM
point taken.

Now can we return to the topic at hand: My 30th level duel?



In the end, I regret opening this thread, but I now realize it opened my eyes to the true evils of Powergamming. I thank each and every one of you who posted on this thread giving me advice, but for once, I feel I should step back, and with a cooler head run the duel on Monday.



I thought you didn't want our advice anymore?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-27, 12:42 AM
I thought you didn't want our advice anymore?

complete misunderstanding. I want help, but I just don't want any wizard or librarian classes

Wreckingrocc
2009-11-27, 01:12 AM
You know what'd make any of you the most amazingly awesome DnD player ever to have existed? Fighter 100 who wins.

It'd be very, very tough, but with enough cross-class UMD, Wands, and super-gear, it might be possible. I believe gold per level is exponential, too, so you'd have trillions to spend.

EDIT: Aaaand, I fail to read pages 2-7 :P

Still. Try Fighter 30 and see if you can powergame into a win. That'd be really, really epic.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-27, 01:29 AM
You know what'd make any of you the most amazingly awesome DnD player ever to have existed? Fighter 100 who wins.

It'd be very, very tough, but with enough cross-class UMD, Wands, and super-gear, it might be possible. I believe gold per level is exponential, too, so you'd have trillions to spend.

EDIT: Aaaand, I fail to read pages 2-7 :P

Still. Try Fighter 30 and see if you can powergame into a win. That'd be really, really epic.

How exactly in Bahamuts holy name would that stop a demilich that is immune or resistant to anything?

I did consider a berserking sorcerer using Rage Mage.

Narazil
2009-11-27, 01:30 AM
How exactly in Bahamuts holy name would that stop a demilich that is immune or resistant to anything?

I did consider a berserking sorcerer using Rage Mage.
UMD, be able to cast Mage's Disjunction and Orb of X spells, I guess.

Brother Oni
2009-11-27, 08:19 AM
I’ve got a simpler 3 step resolution to your problem:

1: At the beginning of the duel, ask if you can look at his character sheet to check he isn’t cheating.

2: When he hands it over, eat the character sheet.

3: Win the duel as he didn’t bring a valid character to the duel and hence forfeits.

If step 1 fails, simply take the character sheet off him or ask your referee friend to scan both character sheets and take your opponent’s character off him.

Alcopop
2009-11-27, 09:56 AM
I’ve got a simpler 3 step resolution to your problem:

1: At the beginning of the duel, ask if you can look at his character sheet to check he isn’t cheating.

2: When he hands it over, eat the character sheet.

3: Win the duel as he didn’t bring a valid character to the duel and hence forfeits.

If step 1 fails, simply take the character sheet off him or ask your referee friend to scan both character sheets and take your opponent’s character off him.

Actually that’s not too bad… Except replace eating with scanning and showing the forum.

Hell don't even make a character, I can guarantee that he has messed up at least once (it's hard not to at 30, especially for a guy who obviously doesn't know what he is doing). Void Character, win duel without even lifting a finger, better yet make a level 1 commoner just for bragging rights later.

Also, I find it funny that every suggestion that pops up gets "banned" in the latest rules iteration... Step one for winning; don't tell him what it is before you squish him with it. Because your obviously not making the rules here.

Or just get over your need to have the bigger dnd... yeah.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-27, 10:58 AM
The Rage Mage can cast those spells AND hit things with a big hammer

Narazil
2009-11-27, 11:11 AM
The Rage Mage can cast those spells AND hit things with a big hammer
Why would you do both, when all you need to do is cast spells? Which works better. Always.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-27, 11:28 AM
Why would you do both, when all you need to do is cast spells? Which works better. Always.

Then I ask you a question: If only arcane works at epic level, then why do they have the other classes?

Eurus
2009-11-27, 11:31 AM
Then I ask you a question: If only arcane works at epic level, then why do they have the other classes?

Because WotC doesn't playtest. At least, not nearly enough, and not nearly hard enough.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-27, 11:42 AM
so in plain redneck english, Be Damned with third edition?

Signmaker
2009-11-27, 12:00 PM
Then I ask you a question: If only arcane works at epic level, then why do they have the other classes?

Incorrect assumption. There exist epic base classes which perform splendidly against epic monsters in epic, who are not casters. Rogue, as an example, essentially does not 'exist' on the epic monster radar, and subsequently murders them because of being sneaky not-ninjas. However, these non-casting epic classes have basically zero chance against full casting epic classes. Why? They get far more preparation time, far more actions, far more contingencies, and what generally amounts to "not giving a damn" (contingent ressurections, invulnerabilities to death triggered by taking damage, etc.). I doubt that even an undetectable rogue with the ability to one-shot a caster with a Thinaun weapon could take it down permanently, provided they're even able to kill it.

Narazil
2009-11-27, 12:05 PM
Incorrect assumption. There exist epic base classes which perform splendidly against epic monsters in epic, who are not casters. Rogue, as an example, essentially does not 'exist' on the epic monster radar, and subsequently murders them because of being sneaky not-ninjas. However, these non-casting epic classes have basically zero chance against full casting epic classes. Why? They get far more preparation time, far more actions, far more contingencies, and what generally amounts to "not giving a damn" (contingent ressurections, invulnerabilities to death triggered by taking damage, etc.). I doubt that even an undetectable rogue with the ability to one-shot a caster with a Thinaun weapon could take it down permanently, provided they're even able to kill it.
Which leads to the conclusion: Fight fire with fire - you're up against a spellcaster? Be a better spellcaster. It's easy to beat an under-optimized spellcaster with a functioning one.
With a melee character? Not so much. You may be the most awesome melee character ever, but the caster will still just walk all over you. Especially on epic levels.

Signmaker
2009-11-27, 12:09 PM
Which leads to the conclusion: Fight fire with fire - you're up against a spellcaster? Be a better spellcaster. It's easy to beat an under-optimized spellcaster with a functioning one.
With a melee character? Not so much. You may be the most awesome melee character ever, but the caster will still just walk all over you. Especially on epic levels.

More or less. The only real saving grace allowed to the non-caster is the ability to boost their saves high enough to ignore Save-Or effects via Evasion/Mettle. Then again, why an epic caster would use Save-Or effects is beyond me.

Eldariel
2009-11-27, 02:45 PM
More or less. The only real saving grace allowed to the non-caster is the ability to boost their saves high enough to ignore Save-Or effects via Evasion/Mettle. Then again, why an epic caster would use Save-Or effects is beyond me.

Eh, instead of boosting saves, it's generally more efficient to achieve immunity to just about all save-or-X effects; then again, casters will just use other effects (or dispel your equipment if that's what you're relying on).

Heck, immunity to ranged touch attacks is just Exceptional Deflection away. However, since casters have insane CL Gates, effects that do not offer a save and most importantly, epic spellcasting, the immunities don't protect you from epic spellcasters; they just limit their options to the truly powerful ones (or Torrent of Stones). And then it becomes Epic Ward + Epic Dispel + Epic Offense + plain ol'fashioned asskickery fest.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-27, 03:51 PM
Then I ask you a question: If only arcane works at epic level, then why do they have the other classes?

Answer me why they have classes like truenamer, that run into epic amounts of fail even before epic levels?

Obvious possible answers include: Stupidity, lack of playtesting, large amounts of coke and hookers, and that they may possibly be publishing material for money to buy more of the previously mentioned coke and hookers, not to improve the game.

Signmaker
2009-11-27, 05:14 PM
Answer me why they have classes like truenamer, that run into epic amounts of fail even before epic levels?

Actually, epic levels (well, wealth in general) fixes that problem up quite nicely.

Eurus
2009-11-27, 05:29 PM
If you don't mind sinking a lot of money into it, and have a somewhat open-minded DM, a Truenamer can be decent. Not great, at least in comparison to full casters (which really aren't a good baseline to judge against anyway) but a fairly solid class.

Fhaolan
2009-11-27, 05:31 PM
Answer me why they have classes like truenamer, that run into epic amounts of fail even before epic levels?

Obvious possible answers include: Stupidity, lack of playtesting, large amounts of coke and hookers, and that they may possibly be publishing material for money to buy more of the previously mentioned coke and hookers, not to improve the game.

This. Well, except for the coke and hookers part. I'm sure the writers, like most writers everywhere, get barely enough to purchase food from their efforts. It's the publishers who make the profit, not the writers who get paid by the wordcount. (And who are *not* paid to test the work. Just to write it. They don't get paid extra for well-balanced rules.)

mostlyharmful
2009-11-27, 05:38 PM
They don't get paid extra for well-balanced rules.)

This. Just this really. Everything else is hyperbole

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-27, 05:39 PM
Actually, epic levels (well, wealth in general) fixes that problem up quite nicely.

Copious amounts of money can serve to make a mockery of the rules.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-27, 05:40 PM
The rules are a mockery of themselves long before copious amounts of money are arbitrarily dumped on PCs by the great God Level-appropriate-rewards

Signmaker
2009-11-27, 05:49 PM
Copious amounts of money can serve to make a mockery of the rules.

Aye. Massive agreeing aye.

Glimbur
2009-11-27, 10:02 PM
Are we confident he's a Demilich? If so, just go Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor with all the turning boosting items and feats and dust him. No save, no SR.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-27, 10:17 PM
Are we confident he's a Demilich? If so, just go Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor with all the turning boosting items and feats and dust him. No save, no SR.

Glimbur, I owe you a beer.

he's a drow demilich sorcerer20 archmage5 ninja5 Pain in my ***200

I was considering that, but was awaiting a whole "divine blows monkey roosters" speech.

I thought an Aasamir Saint could do the trick.

or mabye a Half-Gold Dragon Saint Dragonwrought Kobold could do the trick

Myrmex
2009-11-27, 10:22 PM
Answer me why they have classes like truenamer, that run into epic amounts of fail even before epic levels?

Obvious possible answers include: Stupidity, lack of playtesting, large amounts of coke and hookers, and that they may possibly be publishing material for money to buy more of the previously mentioned coke and hookers, not to improve the game.

I like to think it's because the game designers were designing around different targets.

Later books have a totally gamist approach, while the older stuff was more focused on simulationist & narrativist content. Though explaining Greater Weapon Specialization vs. Gate is hard to do....

Deth Muncher
2009-11-27, 11:20 PM
Copious amounts of money can serve to make a mockery of the rules.

I c wut u did thar. (http://memegenerator.net/Instances/183/Abridged-Advice-Screw-the-rules-I-have-money.jpg)

Apologies for the net-speak, when memeing I find it the only appropriate way to speak. Which is, of course, as innappropriate as memeing itself.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-27, 11:30 PM
Can someone help me plz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I posted a new thread. It says Radiant Servant of Pelor!!

root9125
2009-11-28, 01:28 AM
Copious amounts of money can serve to make a mockery of the rules.

That...

You might be my favorite person ever.

Optimystik
2009-11-28, 02:03 AM
Yeah, that.

Honestly I'd say you're probably better off throwing glitter at each other and going "I killed you with my magical 100 doom apocalypse!" "Nuh uh!" "Uh huh!"

3.5 shatters when you hit EARLY epic levels. Level 100 is beyond the point of silly and ridiculous in terms of what you can do.

Yeah, that.

taltamir
2009-11-28, 06:57 AM
Glimbur, I owe you a beer.

he's a drow demilich sorcerer20 archmage5 ninja5 Pain in my ***200

I was considering that, but was awaiting a whole "divine blows monkey roosters" speech.

I thought an Aasamir Saint could do the trick.

or mabye a Half-Gold Dragon Saint Dragonwrought Kobold could do the trick

OP, you seem to make a whole lot of limitations on yourself.
For exmple, you don't want archmage because it is "cheap", your opponent IS an archmage though.
Actually you don't want a whole list of things because they are "cheap". You WANT a melee beatstick. You argue that it has to be possible since otherwise WOTC wouldn't publish it. (heh, I remember a guy who said "they wouldn't sell this food if it was unhealthy like you said", my response was "have you heard of cigarettes?")

He is also an arcane caster, which you also seem to dislike...

Most interesting of them all, he is a drow demilich sorcerer20 archmage5 ninja5 on an ECL30 duel.
Drow is +2, and Lich is +4, I don't remember how many pluses the demilich is (you need to be a lich before you can become a demilich, and it adds more pluses)...

but he is at least a level 36 character if you add his classes and the drow and lich ECL.

EDIT: Correct me if I am wrong but:
Challenge Rating: Same as the lich + 6.
Does that count for ECL? it doesn't actually list it on the SRD. Only says +6 challange rating. I think it would be it.
That that means he has an effective character level of 42. vs your level 30 char.

You indicated that the opponent intends to make good use of the following:

Magic Immunity (Ex)
Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.

Trap the Soul (Su)
A demilich can trap the souls of up to eight living creatures per day. To use this power, it selects any target it can see within 300 feet. The target is allowed a Fort saving throw (DC 10 + demilich’s HD + demilich’s Cha modifier). If the target makes its saving throw, it gains four negative levels (this does not count as a use of trap the soul). If the target fails its save, the soul of the target is instantly drawn from its body and trapped within one of the gems incorporated into the demilich’s form. The gem gleams wickedly for 24 hours, indicating the captive soul within. The soulless body collapses in a mass of corruption and molders in a single round, reduced to dust. If left to its own devices, the demilich slowly devours the soul over 24 hours—at the end of that time the soul is completely absorbed, and the victim is forever gone. If the demilich is overcome before the soul is eaten, crushing the gem releases the soul, after which time it is free to seek the afterlife or be returned to its body by the use of either resurrection, true resurrection, clone, or miracle. If the demilich is overcome before the soul is eaten, crushing the gem releases the soul, after which time it is free to seek the afterlife or be returned to its body by the use of either resurrection, true resurrection, clone, or miracle. A potential victim protected by a death ward spell is not immune to trap the soul, but receives a +5 bonus on its Fortitude saving throw and is effective against the level loss on a successful save.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 10:45 AM
Point is he disreguards it via "xp payoff" and I refuse to stoop to his level

Narazil
2009-11-28, 12:58 PM
Point is he disreguards it via "xp payoff" and I refuse to stoop to his level
XP Payoff? For, what, 12 +LA? Sounds wrong.


Also, it's bullcrap to use LA buyoff for this sort of thing. Why not load on truckloads of different templates and +Big Number race and say "I bought it off" ?

Kylarra
2009-11-28, 01:28 PM
You can't* really reduce level adjustments higher than 6, and to get down from 6 to 0 you'd need...
{table=head]
Class levels | ECL | Adjusted ECL
18 | 24 | 23
33 | 38 | 37
45 | 49 | 48
54 | 57 | 56
60 | 62 | 61
63 | 64 | 63[/table]


Okay, so he can't even buy off lich+drow in the stated time.

Note, if we wanted to try to figure out where he is at his +12

{table=head]
Class levels | ECL | Adjusted ECL
36 | 48 | 47
69 | 80 | 79
99 | 109 | 108
126 | 135 | 134
150 | 158 | 157
171 | 178 | 177
189 | 195 | 194
204 | 209 | 208
216 | 220 | 219
225 | 228 | 227
231 | 233 | 232
234 | 235 | 234[/table]

So at level 234 he can have bought off his +12 adjustment. :smalltongue:


*by "can't" I mean in a "generic" game that doesn't stray too far into epics. the rules do allow for reducing higher numbers as I show later.

Narazil
2009-11-28, 01:32 PM
+14 LA, actually, since he's a Drow Demilich.

Kylarra
2009-11-28, 01:34 PM
+14 LA, actually, since he's a Drow Demilich.
2 (drow)+4 (lich) +6 (demilich) = 12 to me.

Admittedly, demilich is actually LA - rather than LA +6, but that's neither here nor there. The numbers are easy enough to scale to appropriate LA adjustment, which I personally feel would be a lot higher than just a +6 for a PC. :smalltongue:

Narazil
2009-11-28, 01:43 PM
The Demilich on page 156 of the Epic Level Handbook is 21 HD and ECL 33. 33-21=12, 4 of which are from the Lich template.

So LA+14 with Drow.

Kylarra
2009-11-28, 01:51 PM
The Demilich on page 156 of the Epic Level Handbook is 21 HD and ECL 33. 33-21=12, 4 of which are from the Lich template.

So LA+14 with Drow.
Neh

{table=head] Class levels | ECL | Adjusted ECL
42 | 56 | 55
81 | 94 | 93
117 | 129 | 128
150 | 161 | 160
180 | 190 | 189
207 | 216 | 215
231 | 239 | 238
252 | 259 | 258
270 | 276 | 275
285 | 290 | 289
297 | 301 | 300
306 | 309 | 308
312 | 314 | 313
315 | 316 | 315[/table]
Level 315 if we assume LA+14 then

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 01:52 PM
He claims that, because he's a DM, he can cheat. Again, not stooping to his level

erikun
2009-11-28, 01:55 PM
Well, I see what the problem is now. Your opponent isn't using a level 30 character; he's using a level 44 one! And as Kylarra said, he would need to be well over lv.200 before he could do so. It's little wonder his "level 30 lich" is capable of killing any other level 30 character.

I mean, if we're following this logic, I could put together a Ethergaunt Wizard13 /Iot7V 7/Incantrix 10 for a 47th level caster with full arcane immunity, and just throw Quickened Consecutive Empowered Maximized Twin Shatter at him for 120d6 damage a round.

[edit] Make that 60d6 a round, since the demilich takes half damage.

Also: You have two options, play by his rules of quit. It's like trying to play poker with someone who can see your hand - there's no way you're going to win.

ocdscale
2009-11-28, 01:59 PM
He claims that, because he's a DM, he can cheat. Again, not stooping to his level

So far I've been enjoying this thread for its hilarity, but I think an intervention is necessary at this point.
Did he really say that? And he still thinks this will prove he's the better player?

Your friend has some kind of superiority/inferiority complex (I'm never sure which one) and basically just wants to exert power over other people. You are enabling him. If you enjoy that, fine. But don't have any delusions about what is going.


It's like trying to play poker with someone who can see your hand - there's no way you're going to win.

It's more like playing poker against someone who decides that only he can deal, and because he's the dealer he gets dealt more cards than you and can decide on the fly which cards are wild and whether certain combinations are possible. "Oh, you think your full house beats my straight? Sorry, we aren't permitting full houses in this game, it's cheesy."

rockdeworld
2009-11-28, 02:00 PM
He claims that, because he's a DM, he can cheat. Again, not stooping to his level
Did I misread this, or is your opponent the DM? Who cheats to win? What makes you think this is going to be a winnable fight?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 02:03 PM
Did I misread this, or is your opponent the DM? Who cheats to win? What makes you think this is going to be a winnable fight?

he claims that since his char is premade, he can use him. thats all. thats his claim. not that he's a DM, but because he's a guy who likes his one character so much that he won't deviate, even if it means "Screw the rules! I like my drow demilich!" It makes me so mad, and yet I said that his character is still beatable. That's the essence of this duel. Not to prove who is better, but to simply prove that I'm right.

Narazil
2009-11-28, 02:06 PM
he claims that since his char is premade, he can use him. thats all. thats his claim. not that he's a DM, but because he's a guy who likes his one character so much that he won't deviate, even if it means "Screw the rules! I like my drow demilich!" It makes me so mad, and yet I said that his character is still beatable. That's the essence of this duel. Not to prove who is better, but to simply prove that I'm right.
So much wrong with this.

Anyway. Make a character with the same ECL as his. That means 44 class levels with a LA+0 race.

Bring your PHB to the duel. If he argues that you have more levels than he does, hit him with your book. Repeatably.

ocdscale
2009-11-28, 02:16 PM
Okay, so his argument is that he loves that character so much that he has to use it, fine.

Ask him whether the ECL matters. If he says yes, then you get a level 44 character to mess around with.
If he says no, then you get to stack whatever the hell you want.

Edit: The best way to 'win' an encounter like this is to show just how unreasonable the other side is.

Flickerdart
2009-11-28, 04:17 PM
Yeah, just grab that Ethergaunt and say you bought the LA off, too.

Volkov
2009-11-28, 11:40 PM
If he can cast epic magic, you can't win.

Flickerdart
2009-11-29, 12:06 AM
If he can cast epic magic, you can't win.
Then you just have to cast better epic magic. With more slots by fulfilling all the skill rank requirements; that guy didn't think of that, but you can.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 01:33 AM
fine. you basterds win....

Grey Elf Lich Wizard10/Archivist10/Archmage5/Heirophant5/Mystic Theurge10/Duskblade5

I Epic Twin Quicken Maximize Still Silent Heighten Extend Empower Persist ...ect. Alter Reality and obliterate every-f***ing-thing

Anyone got a better Ideas???

Kylarra
2009-11-29, 01:41 AM
fine. you basterds win....

Grey Elf Lich Wizard10/Archivist10/Archmage5/Heirophant5/Mystic Theurge10/Duskblade5

I Epic Twin Quicken Maximize Still Silent Heighten Extend Empower Persist ...ect. Alter Reality and obliterate every-f***ing-thing

Anyone got a better Ideas???The sheer amount of lol in this post basically marks the end of my participation in this thread.

This is clearly going to be a farce from the outset and every post past the original only reinforces that point.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 01:54 AM
fine. you basterds win....

Grey Elf Lich Wizard10/Archivist10/Archmage5/Heirophant5/Mystic Theurge10/Duskblade5

I Epic Twin Quicken Maximize Still Silent Heighten Extend Empower Persist ...ect. Alter Reality and obliterate every-f***ing-thing

Anyone got a better Ideas???

That was me having a temper tantrum...I was so fed up with the crap I just snapped.

anywho, here's the basics:

Neutral Battlefield
One-on-One (no cohorts or allies or ect. except familiars, mounts, and companions)
All Books (official) and WotC content (Including Dragon & Dungeon Magazine)
45 levels
"By Defeat"-If I turn/destroy his physical form, I "Win", he kills me, he "wins". ITE, both chars don't acutally "die" at the end of the fight.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-29, 02:02 AM
This. Just this really. Everything else is hyperbole

Yes, but hyperbole involving coke&hooker related conspiracies ends up being so much more amusing.

And, given the thread at this point, likely as close to useful as we're going to get. Between the tales of flagrant cheating on the part of the other guy, the ever changing requirements for the build, and the ludicrous level at which this takes place...oh, and the "temper tantrums", I really don't think we're going to get anywhere as far as actual character building.

A much better dueling tactic would be to remove your pants, seize his character sheet, and dance around the room whistling a jaunty tune while setting it ablaze.

Narazil
2009-11-29, 04:59 AM
That was me having a temper tantrum...I was so fed up with the crap I just snapped.

anywho, here's the basics:

Neutral Battlefield
One-on-One (no cohorts or allies or ect. except familiars, mounts, and companions)
All Books (official) and WotC content (Including Dragon & Dungeon Magazine)
45 levels
"By Defeat"-If I turn/destroy his physical form, I "Win", he kills me, he "wins". ITE, both chars don't acutally "die" at the end of the fight.
.. So Epic Magic is allowed now?

Round 0: Contingency: Teleport to his Genesis-plane.
Timeflow there is different, so in 1 round on the Material plane, a few years will have gone by on his own plane.

Round 1: You get hit by the Kill AirGuitarGod spell he researched. You die, no save.

Round 2: Burritos.


Seriously. This is why you can't win against epic magic.

Volkov
2009-11-29, 09:13 AM
Then you just have to cast better epic magic. With more slots by fulfilling all the skill rank requirements; that guy didn't think of that, but you can.

The problem is that Epic magic can do anything. Infinity cannot beat Infinity. Though multiplying infinity by zero defeats infinity.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 01:22 PM
.. So Epic Magic is allowed now?

Round 0: Contingency: Teleport to his Genesis-plane.
Timeflow there is different, so in 1 round on the Material plane, a few years will have gone by on his own plane.

Round 1: You get hit by the Kill AirGuitarGod spell he researched. You die, no save.

Round 2: Burritos.


Seriously. This is why you can't win against epic magic.

once again, I repeat: NO EPIC MAGIC. The rules remain the same, this is simply the in-game effects.