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View Full Version : [3.5] I don't understand LA.



Burley
2009-11-25, 11:08 AM
I thought I did, but I don't.
My problem is starts at the Satyr, but I'm sure it flows out to the ocean of many problems.
Now, the Satyr has a +2 level adjustment, but 5 racial HD.
My understanding is that if you choose a level adjustment, the rest of the party is level 3, and you're level 1. Okay, that's fine. But, now at level one, I have 5HD work of HP, skills, feats, etc.?

So, please, what's the deal with LA?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-11-25, 11:14 AM
well , prolly gonna get ninja'ed but

you add LA and racial hit dice to get some thing called ECL
so for your satyr it would be 7 so a first level satyr would be equivelent to an 8th level pc

Kylarra
2009-11-25, 11:14 AM
I thought I did, but I don't.
My problem is starts at the Satyr, but I'm sure it flows out to the ocean of many problems.
Now, the Satyr has a +2 level adjustment, but 5 racial HD.
My understanding is that if you choose a level adjustment, the rest of the party is level 3, and you're level 1. Okay, that's fine. But, now at level one, I have 5HD work of HP, skills, feats, etc.?

So, please, what's the deal with LA?
Sort of, what you want is your effective character level (ECL), which is your LA+RHD.

So in the satyr's case, in order for you to get your first level in any class, the rest of the party needs to be level 8, so you'd have 5 RHD, +2 LA, + 1 class = ecl 8.

jmbrown
2009-11-25, 11:14 AM
If you take the satyr as a player character race you begin with 5hd and the stats that come with it. Despite being a 5hd monster with no player classes, you're considered 7th level for the purposes of advancement.

The origins of level adjustment are pretty clear. AD&D restricted non-human races on their class advancement because they were way more powerful. In 2E, one of the variant rules was to give demihumans slower advancement rate. This translated into level adjustment in 3E if a race was more powerful than the player character races. Unfortunately, the system doesn't work like it did in AD&D because 3E's rapid increase in power (in AD&D, every class capped hit dice 9th or 10th level; after that you gained fixed hp) and the overall weakness of monster racial hit dice coupled with the recommended wealth by level makes characters with slow advancement underwhelmed immediately.

You're not alone in hating level adjustment. Even with the buy off rules in Unearthed Arcana, monsters are outshined by equal level PCs.

jokey665
2009-11-25, 11:16 AM
A Satyr with 5 Racial Hit Dice and a +2 Level Adjustment means that a 1st level Satyr Fighter would have an Effective Character level of 8 (5+2+1). Racial Hit Dice are sort of a mix between Level Adjustment and Class Levels. They count towards the character's overall level, but instead of being empty space like Level Adjustment they grant you HP, BAB, Saves, etc but no class features like a regular class level would.

Kzickas
2009-11-25, 05:01 PM
I thought I did, but I don't.
My problem is starts at the Satyr, but I'm sure it flows out to the ocean of many problems.
Now, the Satyr has a +2 level adjustment, but 5 racial HD.
My understanding is that if you choose a level adjustment, the rest of the party is level 3, and you're level 1. Okay, that's fine. But, now at level one, I have 5HD work of HP, skills, feats, etc.?

So, please, what's the deal with LA?

LA being a creature of primordial chaos is by definition impossible to understand

Bosh
2009-11-26, 12:35 AM
It means that in virtually every case, taking LA (and especially racial hit dice) makes taking monk levels look like a good idea power-wise...

ex cathedra
2009-11-26, 12:45 AM
It means that in virtually every case, taking LA (and especially racial hit dice) makes taking monk levels look like a good idea power-wise...

Feral, Mineral Warrior, Lolth-Touched, White Dragonspawn, and Greensnake Naga would like to have a word with you.

Optimystik
2009-11-26, 01:01 AM
You're not alone in hating level adjustment. Even with the buy off rules in Unearthed Arcana, monsters are outshined by equal level PCs.

Without LA though, certain monsters become ridiculously good. A Rakshasa without LA is strictly better than an equal-leveled sorcerer, for instance.

For non-casters, being a monster can be helpful. You lose quite a few bonus feats by being a centaur fighter, for instance, but the gains are equally substantial.

jokey665
2009-11-26, 01:02 AM
Feral, Mineral Warrior, Lolth-Touched, White Dragonspawn, and Greensnake Naga would like to have a word with you.

And Saint, don't forget Saint. And Half-Minotaur. And Insectile.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-26, 01:30 AM
And Saint, don't forget Saint. And Half-Minotaur. And Insectile.And phrenic. Don't forget phrenic. And worm that walks.

Half-giant (race, not a template) can be pretty awesome, though I'm finding I can do more with a kobold...

Optimystik
2009-11-26, 02:30 AM
I think LA-buyoff is a sensible solution. It still slows LA race progression early onto make 0-LA choices still be attractive, but it doesn't completely preclude their use.

BobVosh
2009-11-26, 02:32 AM
I would like to interject Sylph.

Eldariel
2009-11-26, 02:34 AM
Half-giant (race, not a template) can be pretty awesome, though I'm finding I can do more with a kobold...

When you optimize hard enough, Kobolds always do it better. I mean, that's like the TO credo or something.

Optimystik
2009-11-26, 03:03 AM
When you optimize hard enough, Kobolds always do it better. I mean, that's like the TO credo or something.

WotC should have known what would happen when they printed a 0 LA Dragon.