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View Full Version : Were-wars. There is even a were-paladin by RAW!



taltamir
2009-11-25, 07:10 PM
Select an alignment you wish them to be. Select a were creature of said alignment. Get one to infect you, then go around and infect entire kingdoms.
Make a big ceremony about it.

Why would you do that?
You can shift forms willingly or be forced to shift on full moons. Whenever you shift you must make a will save, if you fail you are forced to act out the alignment of the were form. If you fail enough times you permanently switch alignment and stop making checks...

This is a problem for chaotic evil weres like were wolves.
But then you have things like the werebear, which I prefer to call "werepaladin"... who turn into lawful good when transformed.

An evil murderer you say? no problem, let our paladin werebear friend here bite him, he will be a lawful good guy in no time!

KillianHawkeye
2009-11-25, 07:27 PM
Because if the were-bears tried to pull something like that, all the rest of them would do the same and you really would end up with a were-war. And there's a lot more evil lycanthropes than good ones.

Also, going around infecting people with lycanthropy against their will doesn't really scream "lawful" or "good" to me.

Draxar
2009-11-25, 07:44 PM
Werebears amuse me.

I have this image of an evil crimelord that gets bitten by a werebear, contracts lycantropy, then at the next full moon, involuntarily shifts and is forced to act in a Lawful Good fashion. Whilst being a bear.

And the people will be asking "Who was that mysterious bear, helping old ladies across the street and bringing muggers to the proper authorities?"

Slightly more seriously, if you're willing to be open about the Werebear thing, you wouldn't neccessarily need to infect people agains their will – there are gains to it, and it doesn't make you evil.

Also, I can see it coming under the self-righteous zealotry that Lawful Good sometimes goes for – it *makes* people good.

erikun
2009-11-25, 08:08 PM
Well, contracted wereism forces you to "violently attack those you are most emotionally attached to, whether love or hate," if I recall correctly. So an infected werebear goes insane and starts killing everyone, just like an infected werewolf. That's probably why werebears don't generally use their teeth.

On the other hand, locking someone into a vault until their alignment switched and then curing them (somehow) might work. I'd think a Helm of Opposite Alignment would be better, though...

It still does take away the awesome "Mob Boss by day, Superhero Bear by night" image, though. :smallbiggrin:

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-25, 08:35 PM
I dislike the were alignment system. Their is nothing good about bears. Zilch, nadda, zip. They are quite ruthless in nature and have been known to do some cunning things.

chiasaur11
2009-11-25, 08:45 PM
I dislike the were alignment system. Their is nothing good about bears. Zilch, nadda, zip. They are quite ruthless in nature and have been known to do some cunning things.

Yeah. I mean, we all know bears are PURE EVIL.

It's a basic fact of nature.

KnightDisciple
2009-11-25, 08:48 PM
Yeah. I mean, we all know bears are PURE EVIL.

It's a basic fact of nature.

They're godless killing machines!

Thajocoth
2009-11-25, 08:56 PM
Werebears are Care Bears?

They're lawful good, and have an ability that makes people act lawfully good. Sounds a lot like the Care Bear Stare to me...

(I'm joking, but I do see some resemblance there...)

Roderick_BR
2009-11-25, 09:55 PM
Also, you are pushing the moral dillema by doing a pseudo mind raeping.
Also also, if said criminial just happens to have a strong will, you'll be giving superpowers to a bad man for at least a good time. Bad idea.

Could be used to build a strong willing army, though. And yeah, werebears are good for paladins.

Schylerwalker
2009-11-25, 09:59 PM
I also dislike the alignment system with werecreatures. I think they should either all be evil, or just be the base creature's alignment. Simple.

And yes...bears are, indeed, godless killing machines. ::eyeroll::

averagejoe
2009-11-25, 10:07 PM
I dislike the were alignment system. Their is nothing good about bears. Zilch, nadda, zip. They are quite ruthless in nature and have been known to do some cunning things.

Um, hello? Smokey the Bear? Baloo? Iorek Byrnison? Beorn? The Berestain Bears? The Three Bulgy Bears? Winnie the Pooh?

What sort of depraved person would think bears are evil? OH THE HUMANITY!

erikun
2009-11-25, 10:11 PM
Baloo?
Anyone who runs around naked singing about "bare necessities" is evil in my book. :smalltongue:

DragoonWraith
2009-11-25, 10:27 PM
They're godless killing machines!
I was waiting for this. Was gonna do it if no one else had, but I would have been disappointed if no one had. Heh.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-25, 11:53 PM
As a druid, I have the right to bear arms, the right to arm bears, and I've killed men with my bear hands.

Also, we're waiting partly on Aghihoti, Mr. D.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-26, 12:03 AM
Um, hello? Smokey the Bear? Actually a Blighter, attempting to stop the natural burn cycle of the forests to turn them into a massive firestorm.
Baloo? Took a child away from his family and indoctrinated him in a subversive philosophy, while preventing him from recieving the basic requirements of life, such as medical care and human contact.
Iorek Byrnison? Beorn? The Three Bulgy Bears? Don't recognize them.
The Berestain Bears? Received massive profits from the sale of their tell-all books documenting their borderline criminal acts.
Winnie the Pooh?Spent his life attempting to rob hardworking bees of the honey they needed to survive, not once did he do an honest day's work. Aided and abetted the notorious vandal known as 'Tigger' in his successful attempt to ruin a local farmer.
What sort of depraved person would think bears are evil? OH THE HUMANITY!What sort of depraved person wouldn't? I'm watching you.
http://students.ou.edu/H/Jacob.M.Higginbotham-1/colbert-lockwood.jpg

Bibliomancer
2009-11-26, 12:08 AM
There's an Eberron solution to this, which is "Who cares, 99% of them were killed by the LG Church of the Silver Flame 200 years ago and the rest are hiding." Yes, even the were-bears. There were were-wars in Eberronian history, and the lycanthropes lost.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-26, 12:15 AM
There's an Eberron solution to this, which is "Who cares, 99% of them were killed by the LG Church of the Silver Flame 200 years ago and the rest are hiding." Yes, even the were-bears. There were were-wars in Eberronian history, and the lycanthropes lost.It wasn't the Silver Flame! It's those evil bears again! EBEARron! It's a conspiracy!

BobVosh
2009-11-26, 12:22 AM
It wasn't the Silver Flame! It's those evil bears again! EBEARron! It's a conspiracy!

You seem kinda...shifty. Hmm Lycan in the name....BugBEAR in the playground...Advanced knowledge of the bear phenomenon... WHO DO YOU WORK FOR?!

Alleine
2009-11-26, 12:41 AM
As odd as it is, being infected with lycanthropy doesn't stop you from being infected with lycanthropy. As soon as any evil were-creatures realized what was going on they would just start biting everyone as well(assuming they didn't think of this first). Then you have a bunch of Evil were-bear were-wolf high powered baddies running around. As interesting as a campaign setting like this would be, it would become extremely dangerous extremely fast as people gain more and more strains of lycanthropy in an effort to convert, counter convert, counter-counter convert, etc.

Serpentine
2009-11-26, 01:00 AM
I also am not terribly thrilled by the lycanthrope alignment shift. I think it should just make the person insane when shifted, which they either get control of or gradually seeps into their non-shifted psyche.
OR, when in animal form they're overwhelmed by the basic brute instincts of the animals, and they have to work to get control over it, a la Animorphs.

For the actual topic... ionno.

chiasaur11
2009-11-26, 01:27 AM
As odd as it is, being infected with lycanthropy doesn't stop you from being infected with lycanthropy. As soon as any evil were-creatures realized what was going on they would just start biting everyone as well(assuming they didn't think of this first). Then you have a bunch of Evil were-bear were-wolf high powered baddies running around. As interesting as a campaign setting like this would be, it would become extremely dangerous extremely fast as people gain more and more strains of lycanthropy in an effort to convert, counter convert, counter-counter convert, etc.

And the shiny silver warforged shall inherit the earth.

Jothki
2009-11-26, 01:53 AM
Iorek Byrnison? Beorn? The Three Bulgy Bears

Beorn was in The Hobbit, and is probably the most direct reason why werebears are Lawful Good.

Iorek Byrnison was in The Golden Compass and its sequels, and is probably the most direct reason why everyone knows that armored bears are awesome.

I dunno who the Three Bulgy Bears are.

Beelzebub1111
2009-11-26, 01:57 AM
There's a major problem with your theory:
Only natural lycanthropes can spread the lycanthropy. Infected ones can not. Also, I rule that the alignment of the werecreatures only applies to the natural variates as well.

chiasaur11
2009-11-26, 02:07 AM
Beorn was in The Hobbit, and is probably the most direct reason why werebears are Lawful Good.

Iorek Byrnison was in The Golden Compass and its sequels, and is probably the most direct reason why everyone knows that armored bears are awesome.

I dunno who the Three Bulgy Bears are.

Narnia, Prince Caspian to be more specific.

People tend to forget them because they were introduced at the same time as Reepicheep. Who is awesome.

sofawall
2009-11-26, 02:11 AM
Narnia, Prince Caspian to be more specific.

People tend to forget them because they were introduced at the same time as Reepicheep. Who is awesome.

That would be why I never remembered them. I was distracted by the awesome.

taltamir
2009-11-26, 02:50 AM
There's a major problem with your theory:
Only natural lycanthropes can spread the lycanthropy. Infected ones can not. Also, I rule that the alignment of the werecreatures only applies to the natural variates as well.

what is a natural lycanthrope and how does one become one?


As odd as it is, being infected with lycanthropy doesn't stop you from being infected with lycanthropy. As soon as any evil were-creatures realized what was going on they would just start biting everyone as well(assuming they didn't think of this first). Then you have a bunch of Evil were-bear were-wolf high powered baddies running around. As interesting as a campaign setting like this would be, it would become extremely dangerous extremely fast as people gain more and more strains of lycanthropy in an effort to convert, counter convert, counter-counter convert, etc.

EPIC!
Ok, you shift into your were-bear-wolf-boar-tiger-rat form. Roll 5 a will check to not be lawful good, a will check to not be chaotic evil, a will check not to be neutral, a will check not to be lawful evil and a second will check not to be chaotic evil. If you fail multiple checks roll to choose which alignment you are today.

taltamir
2009-11-26, 02:54 AM
The notion that evil lycanthropes will only try to infect people if good lycans do doesn't make sense, they are evil, they will be infecting people anyways.
They are also being hunted by organized and powerful groups...
But those groups should not be able to stop them... for some reason they do (for some reason humans are not all demon/illithid/dragon/whatever cattle either)

the advantage of the were-bear suggestion is that you could get the "Good people" behind it... and the lawful ones too...

The disadvantage is that the only conceivable reason why evil lycans don't overwhelm humanity is divine intervention, and I can see evil gods divinely interveneing to prevent your were-carebear utopia.

Zaq
2009-11-26, 02:57 AM
As odd as it is, being infected with lycanthropy doesn't stop you from being infected with lycanthropy.

Yo dawg, I heard you like were-things...

Alleine
2009-11-26, 02:59 AM
what is a natural lycanthrope and how does one become one?

Natural lycan is when a mommy lycan and a daddy lycan love each other very much. AKA, they're born into it. Afflicted means you got bit and cursed. So an afflicted would give birth to a natural.

And since only naturals can spread it(how did I never notice that?) the whole scheme might take awhile longer to unfold then, as you have to wait for the next generation to come along before widespread infecting can begin.

Eldariel
2009-11-26, 03:11 AM
Bears are majestic and awesome. Also, kings of the forest and incarnations of Tapio and so on. You don't wanna claim Bears are evil!

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-11-26, 03:13 AM
Actually, lycanthropes are, in fact, immune to further strains of Lycanthropy, due to the Shapechanger subtype. They no longer qualify as a valid target of the Lycanthropy.

Alleine
2009-11-26, 03:17 AM
Actually, lycanthropes are, in fact, immune to further strains of Lycanthropy, due to the Shapechanger subtype. They no longer qualify as a valid target of the Lycanthropy.

:smallconfused: How so? They still qualify as humanoid or giant after being infected. How does the subtype affect that?

averagejoe
2009-11-27, 12:25 AM
What sort of depraved person wouldn't? I'm watching you.
http://students.ou.edu/H/Jacob.M.Higginbotham-1/colbert-lockwood.jpg

Arrrggggh! Curse you and that man! Lies and propaganda, all of it!

I mean, I can't imagine this hasn't been pointed out, but seriously, Stephen Colbert or Stephen ColBEAR? Suspicious, if you ask me. Somehow I suspect the man isn't really what he presents himself as.

Also: Reepacheep is more awesome than most things. The Bulgy Bears were pretty minor even considering this; I only really included them because their name is funny.

Moriato
2009-11-27, 10:46 AM
I'll help!

*rolls a 16*

Bears live in caves. Sorry, that's all I know about bears.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-27, 03:49 PM
I'll help!

*rolls a 16*

Bears live in caves. Sorry, that's all I know about bears.They poo in the woods. Maybe that's where wood-elves and faeries get their fireballs?

Melamoto
2009-11-27, 04:00 PM
Well, contracted wereism forces you to "violently attack those you are most emotionally attached to, whether love or hate," if I recall correctly. So an infected werebear goes insane and starts killing everyone, just like an infected werewolf. That's probably why werebears don't generally use their teeth.

I don't see that anywhere. All I see is that when transformed involuntarily, then you will always act in the alignment of the creature you are transformed into. When you transform voluntarily, you permanently assume the alignment of whatever your creature is, whether in human or animal form.

Draxar
2009-11-27, 04:50 PM
For reference, the text in question.
When a character contracts lycanthropy through a lycanthrope’s bite (see above), no symptoms appear until the first night of the next full moon. On that night, the afflicted character involuntarily assumes animal form and forgets his or her own identity, temporarily becoming an NPC. The character remains in animal form, assuming the appropriate alignment, until the next dawn.

The character’s actions during this first episode are dictated by the alignment of its animal form. The character remembers nothing about the entire episode (or subsequent episodes) unless he succeeds on a DC 15 Wisdom check, in which case he becomes aware of his lycanthropic condition.

Thereafter, the character is subject to involuntary transformation under the full moon and whenever damaged in combat. He or she feels an overwhelming rage building up and must succeed on a Control Shape check (see below) to resist changing into animal form. Any player character not yet aware of his or her lycanthropic condition temporarily becomes an NPC during an involuntary change, and acts according to the alignment of his or her animal form. My emphasis.

taltamir
2009-11-28, 07:14 AM
For reference, the text in question. My emphasis.

but the alignment of a "werebear" is lawful good.
its not a REAL bear, its a carebear.


Natural lycan is when a mommy lycan and a daddy lycan love each other very much. AKA, they're born into it. Afflicted means you got bit and cursed. So an afflicted would give birth to a natural.

And since only naturals can spread it(how did I never notice that?) the whole scheme might take awhile longer to unfold then, as you have to wait for the next generation to come along before widespread infecting can begin.

how fast do goblins breed again? Is there any humanoid that breeds faster than goblins?

BobVosh
2009-11-28, 07:21 AM
but the alignment of a "werebear" is lawful good.
its not a REAL bear, its a carebear.
The point is it is only in animal form that they act LG.


how fast do goblins breed again? Is there any humanoid that breeds faster than goblins?

When a mommy goblin and a daddy goblin like each other, or is ordered by the supreme overlord...

Cyanic
2009-11-28, 07:43 AM
In a campaign back in the day, I, as a PC started a glorious druidic were-dire boar revolution through cheap use of leadership and propaganda. Eventually rule zero took the tribe out of my control and to another plane but I had about 800 convert at that point. I had set up patrols in the woods to exterminate all the "unnatural" things, you know, umm things with clothes, tools, etc.

taltamir
2009-11-28, 08:18 AM
The point is it is only in animal form that they act LG.

Well, two things:
1. The point was that werebears will not eat their family. Werewolves and other chaotic evil will.
2. There are some rules about it making your alignment permanently change. aka, will also change for when you are not wered.

Anonymouswizard
2009-11-28, 08:24 AM
Anyone who runs around naked singing about "bare necessities" is evil in my book. :smalltongue:

No, thats the BEAR necessities.


but the alignment of a "werebear" is lawful good.
its not a REAL bear, its a carebear.



how fast do goblins breed again? Is there any humanoid that breeds faster than goblins?

Kobolds. I infect a tribe of kobolds, and when the mommy kobolds and the daddy kobolds love each other very much, they enter into a special hug (real text was removed due to regulations). /then, I take other the world with my werebear-kobolds.

taltamir
2009-11-28, 08:29 AM
so... if you were a DM, how would you react to "I look for a werebear and a tribe of kobolds". ;p

Sliver
2009-11-28, 08:53 AM
Any attack a Werebear delivers has a significant chance to kill the basic kobold with a single strike. Problem solved.

taltamir
2009-11-28, 09:20 AM
Any attack a Werebear delivers has a significant chance to kill the basic kobold with a single strike. Problem solved.

don't deliver an attack. Gently poke their hand with your nail, or bite.
You are not Chaotic (insane) Evil (Stupid) alignment
You are Lawful (fanatic) Good (stupid)

if need be, the werebear is in chains, the kobold reaches through a small hole in a steel door.

I think "all were creatures retain their normal alignment, instead they go INSANE during transformations" is a much more sensible solution if you are a DM and want to prevent were abuse.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-28, 11:21 AM
I think "all were creatures retain their normal alignment, instead they go INSANE during transformations" is a much more sensible solution if you are a DM and want to prevent were abuse.Some go insane; others just go feral. Once the person transforms on purpose (ie, gains control), he no longer has that problem.

Unfortunately, enough attacks happen during the feral/insane stage that lycanthropes tend to be hunted on sight. Not to mention all of the Evil-aligned people (especially the Chaotic ones) that take advantage of the difficulty it takes to injure and kill them; they tend to get overconfident and brazen, and start killing people. Really doesn't help all the other halfway-decent lycanthropes at all.

ghashxx
2009-11-28, 02:07 PM
Some go insane; others just go feral. Once the person transforms on purpose (ie, gains control), he no longer has that problem.

Unfortunately, enough attacks happen during the feral/insane stage that lycanthropes tend to be hunted on sight. Not to mention all of the Evil-aligned people (especially the Chaotic ones) that take advantage of the difficulty it takes to injure and kill them; they tend to get overconfident and brazen, and start killing people. Really doesn't help all the other halfway-decent lycanthropes at all.

I really like this setup. It stops people from just grabbing an infection to get superpowerd because they'll be uncontrollable for awhile. I guess if they, in character, try to get infected then that's different, but what kind of game/character would have this happen other than a lycan dominated society where lycanthropy isn't a stigma.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-28, 07:26 PM
Ooh, a were-Black Bear, were-brown Bear, Were- Polar, Were-Dire Bear human has the most bear you can get while still Core.

Granted it is epic in ECL.

Str +60, DEx +8, Con +28, Wis +8. Natural armor +8 added to Base NA.

Yzzyx
2009-11-28, 08:43 PM
Ooh, a were-Black Bear, were-brown Bear, Were- Polar, Were-Dire Bear human has the most bear you can get while still Core.

Granted it is epic in ECL.

Str +60, DEx +8, Con +28, Wis +8. Natural armor +8 added to Base NA.

Were-black-bear, were-brown-bear, were-polar-bear, were-dire-bear bugbears are better. Hmm... it needs more owlbear, I think.

arguskos
2009-11-28, 08:52 PM
Also: Reepacheep is more awesome than most things.

Reepacheep is more awesome than things.

Reepacheep is awesome
First, it's Reepicheep, assuming we're talking about the awesome mouse from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. If so, yes, he is pretty hardcore. Dude's a 6 inch high mouse who takes on a sea serpent with a frikkin' pencil-sized rapier! I can dig it.

Roderick_BR
2009-11-29, 02:40 AM
Natural lycan is when a mommy lycan and a daddy lycan love each other very much. AKA, they're born into it. Afflicted means you got bit and cursed. So an afflicted would give birth to a natural.

And since only naturals can spread it(how did I never notice that?) the whole scheme might take awhile longer to unfold then, as you have to wait for the next generation to come along before widespread infecting can begin.
Now I imagine a small group of naturals hatching a plan to infect as many people as possible, then start a breeding program, planning to overthrow the local government with the next generation.

Yes, it's almost 6am here. I'm off to bed before I decide to write it down.

hamishspence
2009-11-29, 06:20 AM
First, it's Reepicheep, assuming we're talking about the awesome mouse from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. If so, yes, he is pretty hardcore. Dude's a 6 inch high mouse who takes on a sea serpent with a frikkin' pencil-sized rapier! I can dig it.

2 ft tall, not 6 inches- in the book, at least.

And, ironically for someone so belligerent, he is the first to realize that fighting the Serpent is a mistake, and that they should push the Serpent's coil off the ship, before it tightens and cuts the ship in half.

They succeed, though it tightens rather quickly and they lose the tail of the ship in the process.

arguskos
2009-11-29, 07:02 AM
2 ft tall, not 6 inches- in the book, at least.

And, ironically for someone so belligerent, he is the first to realize that fighting the Serpent is a mistake, and that they should push the Serpent's coil off the ship, before it tightens and cuts the ship in half.

They succeed, though it tightens rather quickly and they lose the tail of the ship in the process.
Yeah, forgot his actual size. But, the point is valid. He is also the first to attack the damn sea serpent with a sword. Dude had stones the size of grapefruits, and was a 2-ft tall MOUSE. I think any thread about were-people is over when Reepicheep takes the stage, since he steals the show from everyone.

Hell, he gets into Heaven while still alive, because he sails beyond the edge of the world, on what can be summed up as "a life saver with a floor". Reepicheep was awesome. :smallcool:

hamishspence
2009-11-29, 10:30 AM
In the book, Eustace is the one who attacks the serpent first (and his sword promptly breaks) and Reep is the one who, just as the others are about to join him, yells "Don't fight! Push" and promptly starts doing it.

Which was the point to be made- while he is exceptionally courageous, he is also able to realize that fighting is not always the best plan.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-29, 10:55 AM
Hell, he gets into Heaven while still alive*Klaxons fire*

The irony!

Volkov
2009-11-29, 11:22 AM
Were-tyrannosaurus Rex Half Dragon Blackscale Lizard Folk Barbarians are awesome beyond measure.

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-29, 11:51 AM
Given that the carebears Were-Bears are lawfull good, wouldn't they bite the Kobolds for subdual damage, anyway? :smallsmile:

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 12:14 PM
Ooh, good point. They would probably still hit with -4 hit penalty.

taltamir
2009-12-01, 09:39 AM
Some go insane; others just go feral. Once the person transforms on purpose (ie, gains control), he no longer has that problem.

Unfortunately, enough attacks happen during the feral/insane stage that lycanthropes tend to be hunted on sight. Not to mention all of the Evil-aligned people (especially the Chaotic ones) that take advantage of the difficulty it takes to injure and kill them; they tend to get overconfident and brazen, and start killing people. Really doesn't help all the other halfway-decent lycanthropes at all.

by insane I meant "feral"...

I like your idea of control, although, I think this is too lax.
I have a nice approach to it. If a person is transformed into a lycanthrope, they go feral and attack anyone on sight. as a slow process they gain more and more control over their transformations and over their actions. And they can make will saves while in feral mode.

So, for example, attacking a loved one gets you additional will saves (and depending on how far you have come, it will either gain you control over your self again, or at least "find other pray").

Of course some worlds would have "safe weres" where none of this applies, but if you want them the be scary and hunted then...

When a were transforms for the first time after being bitten they start at the feral stage:
At the feral stage they must make a DC25 will save whenever they transform; on success they act "docile", on failure they act feral. Feral weres will attack everyone in sight. While feral, they may make a will save to "avoid" certain pray, say, family member.
After the first transformation, anger or strong emotion can trigger transformations, resistible.
From feral they can become insane and perma feral... I will not come up with the means yet.
Willingly transforming with the intent to "remain in control" allows a bonus to the save.
If they they succeed the will save 3 times in a row they move to the docile stage.

Docile stage:

In the docile stage weres retain slightly more sense, they can choose to not attack people, but are still likely to act like an animal. Hunting deer or even domestic animals is common in this stage. mechanics similar to above really. only DC is now 20.
I don't really have the time at the moment to completely detail it all.


Were-black-bear, were-brown-bear, were-polar-bear, were-dire-bear bugbears are better. Hmm... it needs more owlbear, I think.

half owlbear/half bugbear?

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 10:58 AM
<Lycanthropy stuff>Very, very nice. Now we just need to come up with usable lycanthrope stats.


half owlbear/half bugbear?It's not a bug, it's a feature.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-01, 11:57 AM
And when the Storm Giant Were-Rocs descend from the mountains? What then?

Bandededed
2009-12-01, 01:11 PM
Very, very nice. Now we just need to come up with usable lycanthrope stats.

Rather than "natural" and "inherited," I'd have one template that does both.

A character who gains or begins with the lycanthrope template makes the following changes to the base creature:
Type: changes to shape-changer (humanoid) in all forms.

HD: +1d8 (4.5 hp). A lycanthrope uses the same HP in all forms, and the use their humanoid con bonus for their HP. The animal con bonus does not count toward their hp in any form. This grants the lycanthrope 2+int mod skills, a good fort and ref save progression, and a poor will.

Silver vulnerability: A lycanthrope takes half-again as much damage from any attack made with silver or similar weapons.

Lycan Fortitude: Lycanthropes are immune to all forms of disease, as the lycan virus will defend them soundly.

Alternate Form (su): A lycanthrope has three forms; the first is his humanoid or giant form, the second is (initially, at least) identical to any animal in the MM, and the third is a functional mixture called the hybrid.

Both the human and animal forms are separate, and the animal is initially almost identical to the MM version. Each uses their own physical stats. They increase stat bonuses separately, but share feats. Each form uses the humanoid/giant forms mental stats, even if they're worse than the animals. They also use their own special abilities, such as scent or darkvision.

The hybrid uses the better of the two forms physical stats, the larger of their sizes, use both sets of special abilities (duplicate use the better form, ie darkvision 60 instead of 30), takes the higher base land speed and natural armor bonus.

All lycanthrope characters use the Control Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) skill as a class skill.

La: +1?

There, I through that together on a whim. I hope it's not too bad.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 01:37 PM
LA +1 for an animal's physical stats is way too little LA or way too many bonuses to stats (depending on the animal).

I would say to take what you did, give a flat +2 bonus to two of your physical stats (chosen when contracting lycanthropy, based on whatever your animal is) give scaling DR/silver (based on level; maybe +1 at 1st, with +1 every 2 levels), with silver weapons dealing 2x base weapon damage and +1d6 points of damage per 2 levels or so (the bonus +xd6 damage is doable on a touch attack; lycanthropes REALLY don't like touching silver). Kill Control Shape, and make it a Will save as noted earlier, and that should be good for +1 LA.

Also, you might nix the 1d8 hp unless it doesn't actually count as a Hit Die.

[edit] I think I'll write this up as a viable template. I also don't think I'm going to restrict this to just humanoids and giants. "Any living creature except for plants and oozes" should be good. That way it works for outsiders and wolf-weres and such as well.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-01, 01:49 PM
[edit] I think I'll write this up as a viable template. I also don't think I'm going to restrict this to just humanoids and giants. "Any living creature except for plants and oozes" should be good. That way it works for outsiders and wolf-weres and such as well.

Great, now I can't stop picturing a wolf that transforms into a wolf once a month under the full moon. A 'wolfwolf'?

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 01:52 PM
Great, now I can't stop picturing a wolf that transforms into a wolf once a month under the full moon. A 'wolfwolf'?What about an anthropomorphic bear werebear bear warrior druid with a bear animal companion?

Or, gods forbid, a hippo.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-01, 01:53 PM
What about an anthropomorphic bear werebear bear warrior druid with a bear animal companion?

I don't think I could bear it...
and you;d need Barbarian to qualify for bear warrior anyways...

I know - a Werewolf-sheep. Entirely new meaning to 'a wolf in sheep's clothing'...

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 01:55 PM
I don't think I could bear it...
and you;d need Barbarian to qualify for bear warrior anyways...Oh the cross I have to bear, bearing in mind these unbearable puns.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-01, 02:12 PM
Anyone who runs around naked singing about "bare necessities" is evil in my book. :smalltongue:

he also runs around in a hat and khaki shirt Flying a plane called "the sea duck" working for another bear named Becky for the air company "higher for hire."

it gets worse. or better depending on your point of view.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-01, 02:15 PM
[edit] I think I'll write this up as a viable template. I also don't think I'm going to restrict this to just humanoids and giants. "Any living creature except for plants and oozes" should be good. That way it works for outsiders and wolf-weres and such as well.

Why not plants and oozes?

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 02:20 PM
Why not plants and oozes?Because I can't quite see how either of those can become lycanthropes? I mean, you're gonna have humanoidal, animal, and hybrid forms; oozes and plants tend to not have either one. Not to mention that I don't think either can actually contract a disease, cursed or not.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-01, 02:22 PM
Jelly Bears!

Just alter the template so instead of 'Humanoid/Hybrid/Animal', it's 'Original Form/Hybrid/Animal', and done. After all, there's some extremely non-humanoid outsiders, but you're not excluding them.

Oozes and Plants are immune to Poisons, but not Disease. They are, however, immune to Polymorph effects, so this is potential grounds for exclusion.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 02:24 PM
Jelly Bears!

Just alter the template so instead of 'Humanoid/Hybrid/Animal', it's 'Original Form/Hybrid/Animal', and done. After all, there's some extremely non-humanoid outsiders, but you're not excluding them.So you have wolves that turn into wolves and half-wolf wolves?


Oozes and Plants are immune to Poisons, but not Disease.Ah. Still, I'm not quite sure that I've ever heard of a were-eggplant before.

[edit] Also, I want some creatures to be able to contract lycanthropy, such as elan, but having aberration lycanthropes does kind of open a can of worms or two. A beholder wereowl? An illithid weresquid?

Starbuck_II
2009-12-01, 02:25 PM
Not Jelli. Gummi bears!
They drink potions of jump called "Gummi juice".

The Glyphstone
2009-12-01, 02:26 PM
So you have wolves that turn into wolves and half-wolf wolves?

Ah. Still, I'm not quite sure that I've ever heard of a were-eggplant before.

Hey, you're the one that proposed allowing anything except plants and oozes. Animals are a creature type, so you could have a Wolf-Wolf with no humanoid form already.

And while I don't know about were-eggplants, there are certainly vampiric eggplants. Just ask Bunnicula.


EDIT
i think the real solution is to limit it not by creature type, but to 'Any corporeal creature with a humanoid form' and cannot already have the Shapechanger subtype. Similar to how Half-Dragon works, and it solves all our problems neatly.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 02:32 PM
Hey, you're the one that proposed allowing anything except plants and oozes. Animals are a creature type, so you could have a Wolf-Wolf with no humanoid form already.But that doesn't let us play with wolfweres and such. This makes me a sad Lycan.


And while I don't know about were-eggplants, there are certainly vampiric eggplants. Just ask Bunnicula.Were-squash vs vampiric eggplants?


EDIT
i think the real solution is to limit it not by creature type, but to 'Any corporeal creature with a humanoid form' and cannot already have the Shapechanger subtype. Similar to how Half-Dragon works, and it solves all our problems neatly.I'd like to see stacked templates, which would turn the affected creature into a panwere. I'll stipulate that lycanthropy is the only kind of disease not prone to the lycanthropic immunity vs disease (though you cannot have the same animal type more than once).

The Glyphstone
2009-12-01, 02:40 PM
I'd like to see stacked templates, which would turn the affected creature into a panwere. I'll stipulate that lycanthropy is the only kind of disease not prone to the lycanthropic immunity vs disease (though you cannot have the same animal type more than once).

That was mainly to stop, say, Phasms from getting Were-whatevered, because they technically have a humanoid form if they use Change Shape. I suppose 'any corporeal creature with a natural humanoid body shape' works too.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 02:46 PM
That was mainly to stop, say, Phasms from getting Were-whatevered, because they technically have a humanoid form if they use Change Shape. I suppose 'any corporeal creature with a natural humanoid body shape' works too.Phasms could very well contract lycanthropy. Why they'd want the LA for something that really doesn't help them is something else altogether.

A changeling were-something-or-other could be fun.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-01, 02:51 PM
Changelings have a humanoid base shape, though. A phasm doesn't need to ever adopt one at all - it's an ooze without the Ooze creature type - if a Phasm can become a Lycanthrope, then a Black Pudding would have equally as much right to do so.

Shapechanging isn't necessarily an impediment to Lycanthrophy. Changelings, Dopplegangers, Rakshasas, etc could all contract it....(Rakshasa WereTiger?). But a Phasm shouldn't, because while it can adopt a humanoid form, that is not its 'natural' body.

For Wolfweres and such, we just add a Special note that says the template can be applied to animals, but instead of gaining the ability to turn into an animal, they turn into a human(oid).

Sliver
2009-12-01, 03:04 PM
Most animals would hate to become w/e were-elf, I'm sure...

boomwolf
2009-12-01, 03:28 PM
Not more then a dragon will hate being were-geko....

chiasaur11
2009-12-01, 04:52 PM
What about a were-horace, the endless bear?

That would be worrisome, I wager.