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ravenkith
2009-11-25, 11:28 PM
I was making a point in aother thread and used a dragon as an example of a dangerous creature.

ANother poster claimed that he found dragons way over CR'd, to which I responded that he should thank his DM and buy him a nice present for christmas, since he had been so kind.

Long story short: I got a little agitated and issued a challenge to the person in question, and here it is, in it's entirety:



RE: Dragons:
As to you finding dragons or dragons finding you:

By the time you reach level 20, you are pretty damn famous, too.

Dragons are hundreds of years old, and they've got a few tricks up their sleeves.

...and lest we forget, dragons are spell casters. They get up every morning and cast divinations to see who's coming for supper - they have access to literally hundreds of thousands of gold pieces in treasure and magic items - and they are not stupid.

I can see we're not going to settle anything here. So I'll throw it out there: I'll take my great wyrm dragon, and you take your four adventurers....I'll even make it simple for you by saying It's core (dmg, phb, MM) and spell compendium only (and that only because I'm looking to give you a break).

I'll stat out my dragon how I want, based on the guidelines in the MM, and you stat your party out how you want (let's say 32 point buy).

I'll run a mini adventure for you, let's call it "Against the Dragon"... and I'll beat you like a red headed stepchild every damn time.


I've bolded the relevant parts.

The other poster has wrangled and wriggled and struggled and argued and counteroffered and such, and has finally got me to offer him a guaranteed cr 23 dragon instead of a cr 25, with all other restrictions in place...

Instead of guaranteeing victory, I am giving myself a 75% chance of TPK, or 100% chance of three characters dead.

Gan The Grey
2009-11-25, 11:33 PM
*grabs popcorn, pops open a beer, and slips into his Snuggie*

sofawall
2009-11-25, 11:45 PM
What are the rules?

And please, don't say the rules are "Level 20, cr 23 dragon, core+SpC" because we all know that those rules are simply not enough. Even I, someone with but weak optimization-fu, can crack anythings head open with open season on RAW, never mind someone like PhoenixRivers, Eldariel, Doc Roc etc.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 11:57 PM
Player Applicants, and links to sheets:
Pharaoh's Fist (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=27364)
Tehnar (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169196)
Mostlyharmful (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=143324)
Superglucose (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=149954)
Toliudar (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169168)

Optimystik
2009-11-25, 11:59 PM
Ooh, internet gunfight.

*Shares Gan's popcorn*

ravenkith
2009-11-26, 12:02 AM
::Scratches head::

Well technically I suppose I'm dming a campaign here....so under normal circumstances I'd have to approve the sheets to allow them in the campaign. <shrug>.

That said, I'd probably only ban infinite loops and gate abuse, use polymorph errata and limit wish and wish types to what is specifically allowed by the spell. But in short, if a sane dm wouldn't allow you to do it, chances are I won't either.

On the other hand, all rolls will be made 'in the open', probably by using invisible castle or some such.

Given that we're talking about just the PHB, the DMG, the MM 1 and the spell compendium here (and please note, that includes item selection - if it's not listed on a table in the DMG you simply can't buy it.) a lot of the abuse goes right out the bloody window, with some exceptions for some high level spells and some insanely powerful items.

And yes, I'm aware of Solar abuse. There's a strat for that: It's called run away and come back later. It's what a real person would do, why not an NPC?

Please Note: The only victory condition that counts is the death of the major combatants: my dragon, his four pcs.

In short though, rule #1 If it's not in the listed books, it doesn't exist. IE, no turning into a sarrukh, no epic spells, etc.

Of course, since the argument was that the DM wasn't running the dragons right.... <shrug>.

and phoenix stop trying to change terms. Take it leave it dude, I'm tired of going back and forth with you.

ranagrande
2009-11-26, 12:05 AM
Yeah, the dragon really doesn't stand a chance against an optimized party of 20th level characters. There are just too many ways to easily defeat it, especially with ninth level spells in the mix.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 12:05 AM
::Scratches head::

Well technically I suppose I'm dming a campaign here....so under normal circumstances I'd have to approve the sheets to allow them in the campaign. <shrug>.


No. Absolutely no.
If you're a combatant, you're not a judge. Impartiality and all.

If you're serious about this, and you're running the OpFor, find an impartial mediator.



And yes, I'm aware of Solar abuse. There's a strat for that: It's called run away and come back later. It's what a real person would do, why not an NPC?
Because how much can you run from? Do you believe that a dragon can escape 10,000 clerics that cast at level 20? That's what solar abuse is, at its weakest.

As for taking it or leaving it?

Drop the bluster. If you're veiling your own weaknesses as "giving me a break", then drop the act, and say that YOU only want core. I, personally, enjoy psionics. If you wish to say that your argument fails outside of core, and concede that, I'll be happy to engage you core.

But if the only reason you're doing core + SpC is to give ME a break, as you said? Not interested. Do what you can do.

dspeyer
2009-11-26, 12:11 AM
I'm fine with a CR 24 dragon vs a CR 20 party.

Does that include a Great Wyrm Brass dragon with two (non-associated) levels in expert? And the Epic Spellcasting feat?

Seriously, though, is this just the announcement of a big battle or is one side or the other requesting optimization? And should perhaps the two sides optimize seperately, without seeing eachother?

Knaight
2009-11-26, 12:11 AM
I'll moderate. I actually have some free time on my hands again, and know D&D well enough to break it wide open. Of course, that isn't exactly difficult. And of course, I'm completely impartial, and almost always GM, and given that I'm well liked enough by my players to be the only person in my group allowed to, I can claim sanity.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 12:12 AM
Does that include a Great Wyrm Brass dragon with two (non-associated) levels in expert? And the Epic Spellcasting feat?

LOL. That's out of core. I'm happy with that, as I've got dragonwraught kobolds with the same feat.

ravenkith
2009-11-26, 12:14 AM
Man, every time I give you a concession, you ask for more.

and more...

and more...

:shakes head:

I'm done giving you things.

Bibliomancer
2009-11-26, 12:15 AM
There does need to be a DM. I'd be interested in watching this. Should a thread be made in On-going Games (In -Character)? Both contestants could use spoilers for planning and the honor system so that bystanders can read everything that's happening (as opposed to leaving all of it hidden in PM format).


Man, every time I give you a concession, you ask for more.

and more...

and more...

:shakes head:

I'm done giving you things.

I'd have to agree with PhoenixRivers here. Playing outside of Core favors you in some ways, since your 'player' can use Epic Spellcasting, with the right feats. If you want to make this core-specific due to lack of time or experience, you should specify that. Otherwise, playing outside of core works if there is a referee.

mikeejimbo
2009-11-26, 12:18 AM
I think that the DM should decide what material is allowed, too. Of course, he/she would have to listen to both sides' arguments about what the original argument was over so that the DM can be sure that his/her scenario will satisfy both parties.

I'm glad I'm not DMing this.

BenTheJester
2009-11-26, 12:19 AM
....I'll even make it simple for you by saying It's core (dmg, phb, MM) and spell compendium only (and that only because I'm looking to give you a break).

Keep in mind that there are WAY more options for players than for dragons(unless you are giving dragons class levels, but that screws the CR).

sofawall
2009-11-26, 12:20 AM
Saying Core+SpC was a concession, unless I am mistaken. One PR decided wasn't needed. It was also conceded by both of you to average the level that each of you thought the dragon was, so no concession gain there. What did you concede?

EDIT: Am I the only one who finds running from an infinite number of Solars funny? Like, seriously, how do you run from something when it occupies every single space, everywhere, ever?

ex cathedra
2009-11-26, 12:24 AM
Man, every time I give you a concession, you ask for more.

and more...

and more...

:shakes head:

I'm done giving you things.

Really? I mean, really?

Going from a CR+5 to a CR+4 is too much? If dragons were accurately CRed, I don't think you'd need to, you know, play one with a CR arbitrarily higher than that of the party.

Not being able to read and approve your opponent's sheet is too unfair?

Don't cry foul when you don't feel like you can win with fair rules. Concede the fact that dragons aren't listed at appropriate CRs when compared to the resources of a party, or prove PhoenixRivers wrong fairly.

Bibliomancer
2009-11-26, 12:24 AM
Balance issues:

One Dragon, CR24 = EL 24 vs. 4 Adventurers, CR20 = EL 24

Outside of Core, the adventurers would have more class features to draw on, but the dragon would get Epic Spellcasting and a few interesting feat syngeries if they looked.

The main initial issue I see is what are the relative positions to each other, and can each side make initial preparations (buff spells or skill checks to surprise their opponent)? Also, how far apart with the two teams start?


Really? I mean, really?

Going from a CR+5 to a CR+4 is too much? If dragons were accurately CRed, I don't think you'd need to, you know, play one with a CR arbitrarily higher than that of the party.

Not being able to read and approve your opponent's sheet is too unfair?

Don't cry foul when you don't feel like you can win with fair rules. Concede the fact that dragons aren't listed at appropriate CRs when compared to the resources of a party, or prove PhoenixRivers wrong fairly.

Yes. Both sides must begin with no knowledge of the other side. Thus, all character design should occur by PM or in spoiler, if both sides can agree to not look. Anything else would provide a game-distorting tactical advantage to the side receiving the information.

The most fair scenario would probably be a flat-footed start separated by (2d6)x50 feet, to prevent initial charges from being too effective and allow both sides to take advantage of speed (dragon) or flexible positioning (adventurers). We can assume that a dragon's preparations would be approximately canceled by the efforts of the rogue and the wizard.

BenTheJester
2009-11-26, 12:25 AM
Saying Core+SpC was a concession, unless I am mistaken. One PR decided wasn't needed. It was also conceded by both of you to average the level that each of you thought the dragon was, so no concession gain there. What did you concede?

EDIT: Am I the only one who finds running from an infinite number of Solars funny? Like, seriously, how do you run from something when it occupies every single space, everywhere, ever?

Hell, running from ONE solar is an exploit

HamHam
2009-11-26, 12:26 AM
At level 20 this isn't really a meaningful contest. If the dragon doesn't have 9th level spells and the party does and actually optimizes the use of those spells, the dragon loses. All it's awesome stats and all mean nothing compared to full casting.

If the dragon does have full spellcasting somehow, it just become a contest of who is better at optimizing full casters.

At more meaningful test would be level 10-15 party against a CR appropriate dragon. And even then an actually optimized party will wipe the floor with dragon by virtue of action economy alone.

EDIT: That said, it is a commonly known fact that dragons are overpowered at their CR compared to other monsters.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-26, 12:27 AM
Might I recommend looking at either the Test of Spite or the Fighter v Terrasque poop threads for inspiration? Randomly roll for an arena from one of their lists, use the ToS ban list(and ban Epic Spellcasting), and see what happens.

sofawall
2009-11-26, 12:28 AM
Balance issues:

One Dragon, CR24 = EL 24 vs. 4 Adventurers, CR20 = EL 24

Outside of Core, the adventurers would have more class features to draw on, but the dragon would get Epic Spellcasting and a few interesting feat syngeries if they looked.
Only Epic Spellcasting matters. You'll note of all Epic features, the only one PR specifically asked not to be used was Epic Spellcasting.


The main initial issue I see is what are the relative positions to each other, and can each side make initial preparations (buff spells or skill checks to surprise their opponent)? Also, how far apart with the two teams start?
The problem is, at this level, either side can choose the battleground, and if they don't like it, can leave with an immediate (out of core) or standard (in core) and come back later better prepared.


Yes. Both sides must begin with no knowledge of the other side. Thus, all character design should occur by PM or in spoiler, if both sides can agree to not look. Anything else would provide a huge tactical advantage.

But of course.

Bibliomancer
2009-11-26, 12:30 AM
At level 20 this isn't really a meaningful contest. If the dragon doesn't have 9th level spells and the party does and actually optimizes the use of those spells, the dragon loses. All it's awesome stats and all mean nothing compared to full casting.

If the dragon does have full spellcasting somehow, it just become a contest of who is better at optimizing full casters.

At more meaningful test would be level 10-15 party against a CR appropriate dragon. And even then an actually optimized party will wipe the floor with dragon by virtue of action economy alone.

EDIT: That said, it is a commonly known fact that dragons are overpowered at their CR compared to other monsters.

So...most monsters are underpowered relative to optimization potential? That must mean that players are not supposed to play Pun-Pun. I agree that a mid level challenge would better capture the flavor of adventurer versus dragon combat, though.

Bibliomancer
2009-11-26, 12:33 AM
Only Epic Spellcasting matters. You'll note of all Epic features, the only one PR specifically asked not to be used was Epic Spellcasting.

Exactly. It should either be outside of core + epic or inside of core. All or nothing, not all minus the bit that helps my opponent.


The problem is, at this level, either side can choose the battleground, and if they don't like it, can leave with an immediate (out of core) or standard (in core) and come back later better prepared.

We're assuming that Kord cast "I want to see a fight on a big grassy field so I can see what's going on" for this fight to happen. Neither side had any previous knowledge of the other and is prevented from leaving by DM fiat.


But of course.

I was simply reinforcing this point, because ravenkith seemed to disagree.

sofawall
2009-11-26, 12:33 AM
So...most monsters are underpowered relative to optimization potential? That must mean that players are supposed to play Pun-Pun. I agree that a mid level challenge would better capture the flavor of adventurer versus dragon combat, though.

Mid-level would better capture the balance of the combat, but high level is supposed to be where the near-epic adventurers fight the epic dragon in a battle for the ages!

EDIT: Stop ninjaing me, Biblical Small Person.

Typically, battles occur in a random arena, but that negates much of the strategy of high-level play, being restricted to one area.

Also, it can make dragons literally unable to fly, as their maneuverability is too low to fly is a smallish arena. You'd need a massive arena, and how you would keep track of all the BC and movement is beyond me.

HamHam
2009-11-26, 12:37 AM
So...most monsters are underpowered relative to optimization potential?

Yes. An optimized party will stomp encounters of equal CR, and could handle a CR = part level + 4 with relative ease. At mid levels, I would estimate that optimization (and I mean simple practical optimization, nothing straight out broken) is like being ECL+2. This increases at higher levels.

EDIT: If you let the dragon have Epic Spellcasting, and actually let it use it, that's just game over like there. But not because it's a dragon, the fact that it's a dragon is basically irrelevant. A house cat with Epic Spellcasting could beat anyone without Epic Spellcasting.

Darcand
2009-11-26, 12:52 AM
We should really nail down a few things, like where this fight will occur. A dragon inside is a very different encounter then one outdoors.

I also nominate that a third party DM be used. One combatant creates and runs a party of four, the other the dragon and home defenses, but neither side has any metagame knowledge of the other, beyond dragon color and rough idea of lair location.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 01:16 AM
Man, every time I give you a concession, you ask for more.

and more...

and more...

:shakes head:

I'm done giving you things.

Let's look at that, then.

You state Great Wyrm vs Party.
I say cool, but not CR +5.

You say that it's not good unless it's at least CR +3.
I say cool, use that. (possible under the original terms. Great Wyrms exist within that CR limit)

You say it's either CR +5 and a straight fight, or CR +3 with limited victory options for the dragon.
I point out that I'm cool with CR +4 for the dragon. (This is an actual concession request)

You conceded earlier that you'll let me run core + SpC only. I reject that concession.

You want to mediate and run OpFor. I state that's unacceptable. There's a conflict of interest when the Ref is a player. (This is an actual concession request, based on a solid concern about the validity of the exercise)

In other words, if you mediate, get someone else to run the dragon. If you run the dragon, get someone else to mediate. I'm happy with running either way, though I'd prefer you run the dragon, as it's fairly obvious you're not entirely impartial in this issue.

I've asked for 2 things. Your phrasing was that core was a concession to ME... One that, I assure you, I do not need. If you need it, fine. Tell me that YOU need that break. I assure you, I don't need such 'breaks'.

But if you want it core only, you're going to need to admit that you agree that out of core, you aren't as optimistic about your chances. I'm cool with making that concession for you. But you'll need to ask for it. Not disguise it as a concession to me. Cause I don't want it. Give that fruitcake to someone else for christmas. I'll just return it, and use the gift cert for a toaster.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-26, 02:57 AM
Say, PR, do you want to run the party yourself, or would you like to put together a team of some sort?

Because I'd be up for that.

Killer Angel
2009-11-26, 03:52 AM
My heart is with the dragon, but my brain is with phoenix.
The dragon can be a though adversary, 'specially if he uses his treasury resources and all the magic he can, even with divination, etc.
But at such high levels, with 9th lev. spells (and epic ones), the PCs shoud be able to win, hands down.

Any loop should be banned. I don't need a clash between 10.000 solars chain-gated by the Wiz and some other nasty loop set up by the dragon and his candle of eternal wishes.

BooNL
2009-11-26, 04:13 AM
This is starting to turn into a poo flinging fest here...

I agree with Phoenix though, the dragon has way better options outside core. Also, OpFor is a big no-no.
I echo the suggestion made earlier, take this into the Arena and use its rules. There's no need to come up with special rules and comprimising what works and what doesn't if there's already a perfectly good basis laid out.

lord_khaine
2009-11-26, 05:27 AM
Though to make it fair for the Dragon, it really should be 4 different people who playes the party, the cordination improves to a unfair degree when its one person running 4 pc, compared to when its 4 people running 1 pc each, and the later situation is the most normal scenario.

Sliver
2009-11-26, 06:28 AM
This thread amuses me. Why ravenkith claims he is "giving things" while the rulings he tries to pass are in his favor. His claim is pretty strong, that the dragon will always be able to do what he supposed to do according to his CR (kill 1 or more characters) but he wants to be the DM of this proof and restrict PR to his chosen books because he is nice... Interesting challenge.. "I will prove you dragons are strong, but only on my terms and restricted access to books"

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 10:50 AM
I don't mind collaborative play. I would insist that my teammates be skilled at Char Op. At level 20, a party's had practically a lifetime of working together, so I'm also interested in communicating concepts to increase party synergy.

I do feel it bears mentioning, while this concept came up during a Gestalt thread discussion, I do not expect the party to be gestalt. There's too many options there. If gestalt IS used, then by all means, take CR25. Hell, take CR 26 or 27 great wyrm. In a non-gestalt vs gestalt contest, an extra 3 CR isn't that big an issue.

ravenkith
2009-11-26, 12:07 PM
I'll be the first to say: I haven't read a lot of the previous posts.

The original point of the argument was: if you aren't worried about fighting an appropriate threat level dragon, then your dm isn't playing them right.

This argument factored in a LOT of different things, not JUST the stat block - like, for instance, after a certain level, dragons are SMARTER than your average bear, and they've had hundreds of years to prepare their lair for an invasion of adventuring thieves. It also factored in that they, too can cast arcane spells and choose to meet you on their own terms - and have had those same hundreds of years to spread false rumors about themselves (among other things).

In addition, most DMs just flat fail to use magic items included in the hoard, or the wealth of the dragon appropriately.

Most DMs fail to even try to play that 180 iq that some dragons have...it's just , "Oh hey look a dragon straight out of the MM. (three rounds later) Wow it sure was easy to beat this dragon in this utterly featureless cave that's piled knee deep in treasure....I probably should have picked out his spells ahead of time or something. <shrug>."

These were all points that I made before, that lead to me making the challenge in the first place, which if you remember, was originally about a great wyrm against a level 20 party, as it should be run by a dm.

We all know that the cr system breaks down the further from core you go - unfortunately, this is the only measuring stick we have for NPC/PC power levels, so we are forced to use it.

This means that for this to be a fair test, core only is implicit.

(Well, we also have character levels - but, frankly, I don't think even I could get you to swallow an argument that each of us should have 80 levels to play with, yours spread amongst 4 characters, mine on one critter that happens to be a dragon).

As a special favor to PR, I said I'd let him use spell compendium as well, since that opens up a lot more options for him, personally, since he will likely have both arcane and divine casters...granted, it doesn't hurt me either, but that's neither here nor there, it's still a concession, and a big one, as it amps spell caster power considerably.

My biggest concession was, quite frankly, going from a cr 25 to a cr 23 and losing two casting levels and an entire level's worth of spells to do it. There is a lot of raw power in spells, as we all know.

That concession was, at one point, all PR was asking for. Now. since I yielded to that one request, I'm getting a whole ream of them. Which, to speak plainly, is doing nothing but pissing me off.

You give people an inch, they want a freakin' mile.

Finally, while we all know that while some **** works by RAW, no sane DM would let you get away with it in an actual game.

Solar abuse is one of those things (among many).

First, in order for you to summon an infinite number of solars, there have to BE an infinite number of solars to summon. Or even 10,000.

Second, you are assuming that the relevant deity is going to let you open a gate to their demesnes. Solars are not common. They exist only on good-aligned planes, and are rare enough that they would most likely be close to, or at least on the same plane as, a deity of some sort. That deity (with knowledge of all things that will affect him or his portfolio) will know what you are planning.

...and will promptly say "Eff that!" and disallow your shenanigans.

Third sure, if the first deity lets you, you COULD do it, but very, very shortly you are going to have some extremely pissed off OTHER deities coming looking for the mortal who was dumb enough to steal ALL of their minions out from under them....and possibly leaving the higher plains unpopulated and at risk of invasion....

at the very least, leaving them in chaos as various tasks go unattended.

Those deities are NOT going to be happy with said mortal.

So yeah....your DM is entirely too permissive and kind, and you really SHOULD buy him a christmas present. A nice one.

BooNL
2009-11-26, 12:32 PM
I know I shouldn't get involved in this.

Guys, this is turning ugly fast, this has changed a lot from a friendly competition and a test to see who's argument is better to an all out slug fest.

Though, instead of flinging punches you're arguing where it's allowed to hit someone.

To be honest, either grow up and leave this be or let a third man step in to decide the rules for you.

HamHam
2009-11-26, 12:35 PM
My biggest concession was, quite frankly, going from a cr 25 to a cr 23 and losing two casting levels and an entire level's worth of spells to do it. There is a lot of raw power in spells, as we all know.

A CR 25 versus a lvl 20 party is not supposed to be a reasonable encounter, so I'm not sure what the point is.

More importantly, the fact is that at that level this is really just a battle between casting optimization. The fact that one side is a dragon is utterly irrelevant because none of the dragon's abilities (breath weapon, frightful presence, etc) is going be remotely relevant compared to it's spells.

Finally, any encounter that consists of one big bad enemy against a full party is probably going to be a walk in the park for the party because of the imbalance in the action economy. No amount of fancy tricks or superior stats can make up for the fact that you are being hit with four spells per round while only casting one (or 8 while you cast 2 if quicken is in play).

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 12:35 PM
I'll be the first to say: I haven't read a lot of the previous posts.

The original point of the argument was: if you aren't worried about fighting an appropriate threat level dragon, then your dm isn't playing them right.

This argument factored in a LOT of different things, not JUST the stat block - like, for instance, after a certain level, dragons are SMARTER than your average bear, and they've had hundreds of years to prepare their lair for an invasion of adventuring thieves. It also factored in that they, too can cast arcane spells and choose to meet you on their own terms - and have had those same hundreds of years to spread false rumors about themselves (among other things).You know what else is smarter than your average bear?

Wizards. Psions. Heck, any PC that doesn't use int as a dump stat. Choice of terms can be limited, and is largely limited by advance knowledge of something's patterns. The attacker usually has that choice, and the party is usually the attacker. Regardless of false rumors, and whatnot, you know what's needed, RAW, to know about the dragon? A knowledge check. That's it.

You know what else dragons are? Creatures with a heck of a superiority complex. The typical dragon views humans as humans view cockroaches. This means they're vulnerable to being surprised.


In addition, most DMs just flat fail to use magic items included in the hoard, or the wealth of the dragon appropriately.A large amount of the hoard is nonmagical. Limited use items will likely be saved, as much as possible (wealth conservation and all... last I checked, dragons like keeping their hoard). However, yes, extensive use of at-will items, and such, should be expected.


Most DMs fail to even try to play that 180 iq that some dragons have...it's just , "Oh hey look a dragon straight out of the MM. (three rounds later) Wow it sure was easy to beat this dragon in this utterly featureless cave that's piled knee deep in treasure....I probably should have picked out his spells ahead of time or something. <shrug>."Every dragon should be individually statted out. The book entry isn't a statblock. It's a guide to creating one. Yes, they should use terrain. Yes, they should use wealth.

Yes, parties typically have a character whose IQ is somewhere in the 290-400 range. By level 20, a wizard with an Int of 32-40 isn't uncommon.


These were all points that I made before, that lead to me making the challenge in the first place, which if you remember, was originally about a great wyrm against a level 20 party, as it should be run by a dm.

We all know that the cr system breaks down the further from core you go - unfortunately, this is the only measuring stick we have for NPC/PC power levels, so we are forced to use it. If THAT'S the guide you're using, fine. Just don't disguise it as generosity to me. I'm happy if the concern's over balance. Just SAY SO.


This means that for this to be a fair test, core only is implicit.I personally find core to be more broken than most noncore. But that's just me.


(Well, we also have character levels - but, frankly, I don't think even I could get you to swallow an argument that each of us should have 80 levels to play with, yours spread amongst 4 characters, mine on one critter that happens to be a dragon).By that argument, 4 level 5 characters should be a match for a level 20. However, a level 20 won't even break a sweat trouncing 20 level 5 characters.

So the argument breaks down. The CR system lists a level 20 character as a CR 20. 4 such characters is CR 24.

A level 80 character is CR 80.


As a special favor to PR, I said I'd let him use spell compendium as well, since that opens up a lot more options for him, personally, since he will likely have both arcane and divine casters...granted, it doesn't hurt me either, but that's neither here nor there, it's still a concession, and a big one, as it amps spell caster power considerably.SpC isn't a huge issue to me. If I had to choose a resource, I'd go with XPH and CompPsi. I love me some psions.

But you went and threw that "special favor" at me, without bothering to check what favor I'd go for. SpC isn't a huge issue. Expanded Psionics Handbook's in the SRD, at least.

My biggest concession was, quite frankly, going from a cr 25 to a cr 23 and losing two casting levels and an entire level's worth of spells to do it. There is a lot of raw power in spells, as we all know.Yes, it is. So's taking a level 16 character against a level 12 party, rather than a level 18. That doesn't mean it's not a WISE concession to make. Even so, I'm happy with CR 24. As I've said many times.


That concession was, at one point, all PR was asking for. Now. since I yielded to that one request, I'm getting a whole ream of them. Which, to speak plainly, is doing nothing but pissing me off.
In the actual setup of such a match, there are many terms that need to be set. Such things? Not needed. Your original challenge included a couple dozen terms. Encounter level, books allowed, what you're allowed, what I'm allowed. And precious little in the way of what is actually the boundaries used.

Those undefined items need defining. Mediator, etc.
If you want reasonable? SRD + CompPsi is what I'd choose. If you're going "special favors to me", go that. Keep SpC. Not interested.


You give people an inch, they want a freakin' mile.I agree, you certainly do want one.


Finally, while we all know that while some **** works by RAW, no sane DM would let you get away with it in an actual game. Using Rule 0 to balance an encounter isn't D&D. It's homebrew. If you want this to be a match, I want a mediator that plays RAW. If you want any agreements on what stuff to not use? Tell me. Stating "oh, a DM shouldn't allow that" is rubbish. If the core rules allow it, it's allowed. If you don't like that, go play cops and robbers across the street with the 6 year olds and have fun arguing over who hit who. The rules are the rules. We're not gonna be line iteming them to be the game you play. We'll be using the rules as presented, and special exceptions will be agreed upon.


Solar abuse is one of those things (among many).

First, in order for you to summon an infinite number of solars, there have to BE an infinite number of solars to summon. Or even 10,000. Nope. I only need 1.


Second, you are assuming that the relevant deity is going to let you open a gate to their demesnes. Solars are not common. They exist only on good-aligned planes, and are rare enough that they would most likely be close to, or at least on the same plane as, a deity of some sort. That deity (with knowledge of all things that will affect him or his portfolio) will know what you are planning.Well, yeah. I assume that the spell will work as written. Is that wrong? The only task that the Solar would be asked would be a 1-2 round simple service, and he'd be on his way. Thereafter, I need no Solars.

You underestimate me, and assume I'm referring to chaingating. I'm not.


...and will promptly say "Eff that!" and disallow your shenanigans.

Third sure, if the first deity lets you, you COULD do it, but very, very shortly you are going to have some extremely pissed off OTHER deities coming looking for the mortal who was dumb enough to steal ALL of their minions out from under them....and possibly leaving the higher plains unpopulated and at risk of invasion....Invalid. Not a single Solar would be removed from the command of a Deity. One service, 2 rounds tops.


at the very least, leaving them in chaos as various tasks go unattended.

Those deities are NOT going to be happy with said mortal.Flawed conclusion from flawed premise.


So yeah....your DM is entirely too permissive and kind, and you really SHOULD buy him a christmas present. A nice one.
Nope. Solar abuse doesn't need to take anything from Deities. Other than 2 rounds of a Solar's time, in a nonthreatening, nondangerous capacity.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-26, 12:36 PM
I know I shouldn't get involved in this.

Guys, this is turning ugly fast, this has changed a lot from a friendly competition and a test to see who's argument is better to an all out slug fest.

Though, instead of flinging punches you're arguing where it's allowed to hit someone.

To be honest, either grow up and leave this be or let a third man step in to decide the rules for you.Again, I recommend using the ToS ruleset. It's designed to eliminate the worst abuses and keep the game playable, but leave the basic balance the same.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 12:59 PM
Again, I recommend using the ToS ruleset. It's designed to eliminate the worst abuses and keep the game playable, but leave the basic balance the same.

I'd be amenable to that, though it would make it somewhat more difficult to 1 shot. I do believe that the shapechange/polymorph and timestop bans should be lifted at level 20, as the ToS ruleset assumes non-core allowances in its balance reasoning, as well as a level 13 combatant.

Ecalsneerg
2009-11-26, 01:09 PM
SpC isn't a huge issue to me. If I had to choose a resource, I'd go with XPH and CompPsi. I love me some psions.

One of these things is not like the other.

Unless you refer to Ardents. In which case... proceed unmolested :P

ravenkith
2009-11-26, 01:09 PM
Okay there's a lot of stuff, and frankly, this debate is essentially between me and PR, so please pardon me if I don't respond to each and every person with an axe to grind.



Using Rule 0 to balance an encounter isn't D&D. It's homebrew. If you want this to be a match, I want a mediator that plays RAW.


No, no, a thousand times no. RAW is for theory only. Trying to use it for actual gameplay is like trying to paint by holding the brush between your butt cheeks.

Not only that, but wasn't this originally an argument about why you should be afraid of a threat level dragon as run by an actual DM?



If you want any agreements on what stuff to not use? Tell me. Stating "oh, a DM shouldn't allow that" is rubbish.

If the core rules allow it, it's allowed. If you don't like that, go play cops and robbers across the street with the 6 year olds and have fun arguing over who hit who.


Oh, what a nice and polite way of insulting my intelligence and maturity. note that I haven't done the same to you mind - I've simply laid a challenge down that you have refused to pick up. Repeatedly. While changing the reasons why. <shrug>.



The rules are the rules. We're not gonna be line iteming them to be the game you play. We'll be using the rules as presented, and special exceptions will be agreed upon.


1. You are absolutely right. The rules are the rules.

Last I checked, 'Rule 0' is, in fact, a rule in the core handbooks.

So in fact 'rules as written' AUTOMATICALLY comes with a disclaimer of: "The DM is responsible for making sure his players are not trying to break the game, and it is not WOTC's fault if you don't bother to read the material and/or characters you choose to allow in your game".

Doesn't matter if it's from fiend folio or savage species or the BOEF - since it's all based off the original core books, it all comes with rule 0 attached as a part of the rules as written.

IT IS EXPECTED THAT THINGS WILL BE DISALLOWED BY THE DM BECAUSE THEY UNBALANCE GAMEPLAY.

Most people just choose to ignore that when talking about things theoretically and call it 'rules as written'.



Well, yeah. I assume that the spell will work as written. Is that wrong? The only task that the Solar would be asked would be a 1-2 round simple service, and he'd be on his way. Thereafter, I need no Solars.



...and you know what? Check the spell...what I described is exactly how it works. There's an entire line in there about deities saying no.

So yeah. At this point you have failed to take me up on my challenge....and from what I'm seeing, you probably won't want to.

Which, by the way, if you check the original challenge, bears very little resemblance to anything you are asking for.

For god's sake, it's like I challenged you to a pistol duel at dawn and you want to make it a boxing match at midnight a week from next tuesday, only you'll be sending George Foreman into the ring to do your fighting for you....

Kind of weak, dude. Kind of weak.

Riffington
2009-11-26, 01:35 PM
I'm really seeing two different arguments here, and I'm not really sure how to reconcile them.
1. arena combat, everything goes. But the human/elf/dwarf/gnome team knows they're up against a dragon and buy dragonslayer weapons/shivering touch. Does the dragon get to know if he needs a humanslayer weapon or such? If the PCs are optimizing, can the dragon do something totally unfair like say "I'm CR 23. That means Mature White Dragon 21/Cleric 1/Wizard 21? Also, what wealth does the dragon get? Based on a dragon's treasure drop? Its ECL? Its CR? Is solargating allowed and if so, by both sides?

2. Dragons as used in a campaign. Neither the party nor the dragon are optimized against one another. The claim just being that a dragon in a cave is less vulnerable than a dragon in a cave with two secret exits who's previously scried the characters as they slew the kobolds guarding his decoy lair and had his elite kobold guard (in his real lair) prepare some carefully-tailored traps.

PinkysBrain
2009-11-26, 01:37 PM
With RAI monsters without class levels get no gear to speak off at all unless it's in their MM entry (maybe some magic items from random rolling). Monsters with custom treasure value placed entirely into custom fit gear represent in no way their normal CR.

If they have class levels they get NPC based wealth for gear based on the class levels.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 01:55 PM
No, no, a thousand times no. RAW is for theory only. Trying to use it for actual gameplay is like trying to paint by holding the brush between your butt cheeks.RAW is the basis for everything we play. As stated, I'm fine with alterations and modifications. By a 3rd party mediator. Who is there to keep it balanced, and keep either side from abuse.

Other ones? Mutual agreement. In the real world, we call this "fair play". Unless you want to point out the last time you saw an NFL game with a ref that ran the ball.


Not only that, but wasn't this originally an argument about why you should be afraid of a threat level dragon as run by an actual DM?No, it was originally an argument over the threat level possessed by dragons. If it's only a threat in the land of candy canes and lollipops, it's not a threat. Mutually agreed upon exceptions, neutral mediator, and fair rules. Otherwise, it's not a balance issue.


Oh, what a nice and polite way of insulting my intelligence and maturity. note that I haven't done the same to you mind - I've simply laid a challenge down that you have refused to pick up. Repeatedly. While changing the reasons why. <shrug>.You've made more than a few patronizing comments, sir. Pardon me correlating a similarity between the two:
a tabletop game where only the rules that suit you apply
a game of cops and robbers, ran by 6 year olds.

The reference wasn't about you. It was about the game you're suggesting I play. A game not by rules as written, but by "oh, I guess I'll ban it if it's bad, but I don't want to be obligated to actually lay out rules in the interest of fair play."

Rules exist to assume balance. If we deviate from it, fine. But such alterations are announced in advance, for the sake of fair play. We should both go into this knowing EXACTLY what is and is not permissable. We should both have input. This ensures it's based upon more than one person's opinion.



1. You are absolutely right. The rules are the rules.

Last I checked, 'Rule 0' is, in fact, a rule in the core handbooks. It's also a rule with no ability to standardize.
Tell you what. You want to retain arbitrary decision on the rules, fine. I guess I'll follow suit. Any human gets an arbitrary +300 to any save involving dragons, an arbitrary 99% miss chance against any attack made by dragons, and an arbitrary SR 9000 vs any dragon's effects.

Because Rule 0 is arbitrary enough to support all of those. Which is why it isn't used in any serious discussion. Tell me raven, are you serious? Are you? Really?


So in fact 'rules as written' AUTOMATICALLY comes with a disclaimer of: "The DM is responsible for making sure his players are not trying to break the game, and it is not WOTC's fault if you don't bother to read the material and/or characters you choose to allow in your game".Indeed. Who's the DM?


Doesn't matter if it's from fiend folio or savage species or the BOEF - since it's all based off the original core books, it all comes with rule 0 attached as a part of the rules as written.I declare, by the glorious balance of Rule 0, that if I show up with a party of 4 commoners, I gain the power: {Ex: Any and all dragons I wish die, and lose for the purposes of this challenge. This is an immediate action that can be taken while flatfooted, and may not be interrupted or negated by any means.}

And oddly enough, your support of Rule 0 prevents you from arguing. Because Rule 0 allows that.
And that's why Rule 0 shouldn't be used. At least, not by someone with an axe to grind.


IT IS EXPECTED THAT THINGS WILL BE DISALLOWED BY THE DM BECAUSE THEY UNBALANCE GAMEPLAY.It is also expected that those things be specifically laid out in advance, and that otherwise, the players have the stability of a familiar ruleset to follow. I'm fine with that, as I've said before.


Most people just choose to ignore that when talking about things theoretically and call it 'rules as written'.No, there's a difference between "practical CharOp" and "Theoretical CharOp" for that reason.


...and you know what? Check the spell...what I described is exactly how it works. There's an entire line in there about deities saying no.Does it outline the conditions under which they will, or is it yet another arbitrary rule that you want to arbitrate to unfairly skew your victory chances?


So yeah. At this point you have failed to take me up on my challenge....and from what I'm seeing, you probably won't want to.Not until you start coming up with fair terms, no.

If you want to come around, and discuss terms sensibly, I'm more than happy to consider it.


Which, by the way, if you check the original challenge, bears very little resemblance to anything you are asking for.None of the original challenge terms are invalidated by the request, with the exception of wanting CompPsi and XPH instead of SpC.

Original challenge CR? Not Set.
Mediator? Not Set.
Barred/Prohibited abilities? Not set.

Forgive me if I don't want an earnest competition with someone who makes the rules, and doesn't even have the courtesy of announcing them in advance. That's why D&D isn't "Players vs DM". Cause the DM can say, "Rule 0, I win". If we're evaluating the strength of a dragon, it should be under fair, neutral terms.


For god's sake, it's like I challenged you to a pistol duel at dawn and you want to make it a boxing match at midnight a week from next tuesday, only you'll be sending George Foreman into the ring to do your fighting for you....And that has as much relevance to what actually happened as a picture of a bunny with a pancake on its head.


Kind of weak, dude. Kind of weak.
Protesting arbitrary deification from a combatant is actually "kinda reasonable", last I checked.

Other people have already told you that you should at least play fair.

All I want is: Defined rules.

If something is, in your opinion, unbalanced, list it so we can list it "out of bounds".

For other balance issues, dealing with a 3rd party that is neutral to ensure that the rules are based on balance, and not an arbitrary desire to win... The 3rd party would handle balance issues at character creation and in match, to keep possible unforeseen imbalances from unduly influencing the challenge.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-26, 02:02 PM
No, no, a thousand times no. RAW is for theory only. Trying to use it for actual gameplay is like trying to paint by holding the brush between your butt cheeks.

Who are you to say that isn't art?

Riffington
2009-11-26, 02:10 PM
Who are you to say that isn't art?

That's not good art, anyway.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-26, 02:18 PM
That's not good art, anyway.

And who are you to say what is or isn't good art?

Riffington
2009-11-26, 02:22 PM
And who are you to say what is or isn't good art?

I have had this power for years. Many people do too. Do you lack it?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-26, 02:24 PM
I have had this power for years. Many people do too. Do you lack it?

Rather, I am free from your square and fascist standards which limit creativity!

Fight the power! Stick it to the man!

Melamoto
2009-11-26, 02:30 PM
I agree with PR on most things, but Ravenkith is absolutely right about Rule 0. RAW is completely broken, and can be abused by a party to lengths that a monster could never dream of. A Mediator will run the encounter as a normal DM would, no questions. And no, that doesn't mean arbitrary advantages, that means closing off cheese, abuse, and anything that shouldn't be (i.e. having a character with maxed out levels in Dragonslayer).


In fact, you know what? I vote that neither PR or Ravenkith should run the challenge against each other, as there is serious bad blood building up here. The Party should still be entirely optimized, and the Dragon should be run to it's intelligence. Whoever wins, this will only end in sadness.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-26, 02:45 PM
And that has as much relevance to what actually happened as a picture of a bunny with a pancake on its head.

HOORAY!!!! My favourite...

http://humour.200ok.com.au/img/pancake_bunny.jpg

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 02:48 PM
I agree with PR on most things, but Ravenkith is absolutely right about Rule 0. RAW is completely broken, and can be abused by a party to lengths that a monster could never dream of. A Mediator will run the encounter as a normal DM would, no questions. And no, that doesn't mean arbitrary advantages, that means closing off cheese, abuse, and anything that shouldn't be (i.e. having a character with maxed out levels in Dragonslayer).I agree with and support the above.

My principle objection is that deviations be laid out, in advance, by players or a neutral mediator. If possible, planned applicable tactics should be presented to that DM, who can make advance rulings on them before the match. That way, as much foreknowledge as is possible is offered to the players, concerning where rules and rulings lie. RAW is the basis that can be thereafter tweaked to prevent imbalance.

All I'm arguing for is that I know the rules of the game going in. One doesn't play a game without knowing the rules first.

At least, not one that expects to remain competitive.


In fact, you know what? I vote that neither PR or Ravenkith should run the challenge against each other, as there is serious bad blood building up here. The Party should still be entirely optimized, and the Dragon should be run to it's intelligence. Whoever wins, this will only end in sadness.
I have no anger or resentment. I just want fair terms, laid out in advance.

I don't expect to know all about the dragon. I DO expect to know what rules I'm playing by.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-26, 02:56 PM
HOORAY!!!! My favourite...

http://humour.200ok.com.au/img/pancake_bunny.jpg

Epic Fail.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-26, 02:58 PM
HOORAY!!!! My favourite...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/toddsun/Pwnage%20pics/bunny.gif

Fixed it for you.

Real men have the picture on their photobucket account.

Sleepingbear
2009-11-26, 02:59 PM
In fact, you know what? I vote that neither PR or Ravenkith should run the challenge against each other, as there is serious bad blood building up here. The Party should still be entirely optimized, and the Dragon should be run to it's intelligence. Whoever wins, this will only end in sadness.

I have to agree with this.

Frankly, I don't think that arena style combat at this point will prove anything on either side. The characters should be built organically by four seperate players who are working together to build a well rounded party (not one optimized to kill dragons specifically-although an optimized party shouldn't need to worry about being that specific). The encounter should be run as though it were an actual mini-adventure or cap-stone boss fight at the end of a campaign. Which means each side should know something of the other.

There should be a neutral DM, not a mediator as the challenge is based around how things work in an actual game. That means there will be impositions that neither side is happy with. For example, if this encounter were being run in my game, it would be against a CR 25 dragon, there would be no psionics and there would be limits to how much of the hoard the dragon could actually use as the beasts tend to collect things for their value rather than their direct usefulness. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, as it were.

Not that I'm volunteering for this as all that would prove is how things would go down under the conditions I impose as a DM. And that would continue to be true for anyone who would run this. Because each DM's game is as personal and individual as each DM.

It might be productive to see what different DM's would do or what they would consider to be the 'right' way to run a high level dragon encounter. But as things stand, I don't see any particular value in this contest.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-26, 02:59 PM
Frankly, I don't think that arena style combat at this point will prove anything on either side. The characters should be built organically by four seperate players who are working together to build a well rounded party (not one optimized to kill dragons specifically-although an optimized party shouldn't need to worry about being that specific).

What if someone wants to play a ranger?

ravenkith
2009-11-26, 03:01 PM
Ok. This my last try at talking some sense into you.

I am a DM. I have played D&D for many years. I've played 2nd, 3rd, 3.5 and to some extent, 4th.

Rule 0 is always in effect in my campaigns. If something breaks balance or is unfun, I will move to block it. Unfun, in this case, would be anything like pun pun.

An addendum to rule zero is: use common sense. Build what you want, let me look at it, if it's not too broken, I'll let it run. This is how I've always done it. It's never been a problem before.

You object to letting me see what's on your character sheet - and under normal circumstances for a 1v1 arena match I would totally agree. These aren't normal circumstances though: most of my character sheet is public domain from day one!

Don't you think that kind of double standard is a bit ridiculous?

The only thing that is going to change from the mm entry are the feats and the spells... so guess what? The very thing that offended you so much? Yeah, I don't have a choice about having to deal with it.

Rule # 1 is always: if it's not listed in the allowed books, it doesn't exist.

Rule # 2 is: 'What's good for the goose is good for the gander". If I ban something for you, the same thing is banned for me as the DM and all my npcs.

Rule # 3 is: unless the allowed books specifically state otherwise, physics as we know them in this reality apply.

My challenge to you was for you to let me run you through a mini-adventure, entitled 'Against the Dragon', wherein the principle antagonist would be a dragon of great wyrm age category. I had a specific type of dragon in mind, as they are my favorite. <shrug>.

For this adventure, since I was trying to demonstrate that if they are being run correctly, yes, you should be afraid of dragons, I opted for core only, because the only measuring stick we have to determine what 'fair' is, only really works in core.

Since I assumed that you would be bringing at least one arcane caster and at least one divine caster to the party, and I wanted to use a dragon that was one CR above appropriate per core, I decided to allow spell compendium as well, to bring in some variety and allow more room for customization of spell lists and equalize the balance of power.

That is what I meant by '...and SpC - and that only because I'm being nice'.

End of the day: you keep trying to turn this into an arena battle - which is not something I intended it to be...

you keep trying to take it further away from core (and by extension, fair, since you've already acknowledge that CR only works right in core),

and you keep trying to push me around and bully me into doing things your way, where everything favors you.

You sir, said dragons were over cr'd. You, sir, said that you could beat one with a third level spell. You also said these things without qualifying them.

I said your DM was overly kind and had given you gifts (in the form of dragon treasure that you apparently did not have to earn).

I also said that I could beat you like a red-headed step child under a specific set of circumstances....

As an aside:

Knowledge checks? Do not work the way you think they do. For every successful check, you get one useful bit of information about a monster type. I.E. "Red Dragons? They're vulnerable to cold, right?"

Gather Information checks can get you information on specific creatures, but these are based on rumors and finding someone who knows what you need to know. IE " Well some folks say there's a dragon in these parts. Hear tell he might be black or green, and makes his lair in the swamp over yonder...or was it that mountain over there? Never can keep all these darn stories straight,"


AS TO THE CLAIMS OF 'BAD BLOOD':

I have no emnity towards PR. I think he knows a lot of stuff about D&D and has read a lot of posts on these boards...I just happen to think he's wrong about dragon's being over cr'd and would like the opportunity to prove it to him in an adventure type setting.

My intent was always more of a PBP than an arena battle, and that's a disconnect that I think we may have only just now resolved.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-26, 03:07 PM
I am a DM. I have played D&D for many years. I've played 2nd, 3rd, 3.5 and to some extent, 4th.
PR has DMed and played D&D for many years too, if memory serves.

Also, it kinda feels like General Haig telling Montgomery that because he had commanded in the British military longer, Montgomery should defer to his advice and send in wave after wave of his own men at Rommel's defenses.

Just because you've been at it longer doesn't mean you're better.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-26, 03:08 PM
I am a DM. I have played D&D for many years. I've played 2nd, 3rd, 3.5 and to some extent, 4th.
So have I. And yes, I also do rule zero a lot. However, the point is that that doesn't say anything about dragons!

I could write a mini-adventure entitled 'Against the Goblin', wherein the principle antagonist would be, yes, a goblin. I claim that this is a suitable challenge for four characters of level 14. I'm sure that I can demonstrate that, if they are run the way I intend to run them, you should be afraid of goblins.

If I succeed at that, it still doesn't say anything about goblins. It says something about my DM'ing skill (likewise, if I fail, that says something about my DM'ing skill).

If your argument is that a competent DM can make a battle against an arbitrary monster interesting, challenging, and dangerous, then nobody is disagreeing with you. If your argument is that by the rules-as-written, a monster of level X is a dangerous challenge for a party of level Y, then you've got some proving to do.

Sir Giacomo
2009-11-26, 03:11 PM
I feel ravenkith has a point here. If (party level +3 CR) dragons are really such a walkover there should not be a problem to challenge them for a level 20 group in the way ravenkith outlined it.

- Giacomo

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 03:12 PM
Frankly, I don't think that arena style combat at this point will prove anything on either side. The characters should be built organically by four seperate players who are working together to build a well rounded party (not one optimized to kill dragons specifically-although an optimized party shouldn't need to worry about being that specific). The encounter should be run as though it were an actual mini-adventure or cap-stone boss fight at the end of a campaign. Which means each side should know something of the other.The party concept I had in mind would be equally effective against dragons, outsiders, aberrations, and undead.


There should be a neutral DM, not a mediator as the challenge is based around how things work in an actual game. That means there will be impositions that neither side is happy with. For example, if this encounter were being run in my game, it would be against a CR 25 dragon, there would be no psionics and there would be limits to how much of the hoard the dragon could actually use as the beasts tend to collect things for their value rather than their direct usefulness. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, as it were. DM's are mediators.

As for dragon hoard? The rules for generating monster wealth are by random rolling. I'm happy with a dragon using anything it gets randomly. I'm even happy with, to a limited extent, some items being chosen (perhaps, 10-15%).

I'm fine with rules going against me. The issue I have is with rules going against me on round 3 of combat. The time for that is before combat. Not during.


Not that I'm volunteering for this as all that would prove is how things would go down under the conditions I impose as a DM. And that would continue to be true for anyone who would run this. Because each DM's game is as personal and individual as each DM.Rules imposed would need to be on the basis of effectively running the challenge. Personal whims shouldn't enter in, beyond a lack of familiarity. A good DM considers balance and fun when changing rules.


It might be productive to see what different DM's would do or what they would consider to be the 'right' way to run a high level dragon encounter. But as things stand, I don't see any particular value in this contest.
There never is. But he issued it, under the idea that he can beat me every time. I'm just trying to clarify before I prove him wrong.


I feel ravenkith has a point here. If (party level +3 CR) dragons are really such a walkover there should not be a problem to challenge them for a level 20 group in the way ravenkith outlined it.

- Giacomo

Except that's not Raven's point. Raven's point is that if a dragon is ran right, it will, at great wyrm level, walk over an ECL 20 party, in core(+SpC) every time.

If that's the case, then it should be valid for a great wyrm gold (CR 27), red (CR 26), green (CR 24), and white (CR 21).

If that's the case, then he shouldn't need to control the DM variables. If they're reasonable, then another DM who isn't involved shouldn't ban anything he's trying.

In fact, if the argument he's trying to get is true, then, barring a balance issue with psionics, there should be no issues whatsoever with him running it the way I suggested.

Neutral mediator (DM), and pre-agreed upon limits? The day someone says that those are unbalanced is the day I stop listening to that someone.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-26, 03:14 PM
I feel ravenkith has a point here. If (partly level +3 CR) dragons are really such a walkover there should not be a problem to challenge them for a level 20 group in the way ravenkith outlined it.

- GiacomoThe issue is that Ravenkith has so far A: not laid down what rules he actually wants, just said he'll ban anything he feels is too unbalanced, and B: he wants to be both the opposition and the DM. That's a conflict of interest in a power check.

ravenkith
2009-11-26, 03:15 PM
So have I. And yes, I also do rule zero a lot. However, the point is that that doesn't say anything about dragons!

I could write a mini-adventure entitled 'Against the Goblin', wherein the principle antagonist would be, yes, a goblin. I claim that this is a suitable challenge for four characters of level 14. I'm sure that I can demonstrate that, if they are run the way I intend to run them, you should be afraid of goblins.

If I succeed at that, it still doesn't say anything about goblins. It says something about my DM'ing skill (likewise, if I fail, that says something about my DM'ing skill).

If your argument is that a competent DM can make a battle against an arbitrary monster interesting, challenging, and dangerous, then nobody is disagreeing with you. If your argument is that by the rules-as-written, a monster of level X is a dangerous challenge for a party of level Y, then you've got some proving to do.

As I said, other than feats and spells, I don't plan to change anything from the stats as posted in the MM.

My argument is that the reason most dragons are such easy beats is because the DM doesn't take the time treat them like the intelligent, dangerous, crafty creatures they are supposed to be. DMs do not treat their dragons as independent creatures capable of rational thought, but rather complete and total idiots that sit there immobile waiting for the next adventurer with a sword of dragon slaying to come along.

My argument is, that in a real campaign, with a DM who plays his dragon as a living thinking being, you should be bloody terrified of these things, and not want to go anywhere near them, as opposed to seeking them out like they are the nearest ATM.

Sir Giacomo
2009-11-26, 03:19 PM
A: ravenkith outlined the level, rulesset and examples for what he'd ban (the typical consensus bans like the allegedly possible infinite solars as far as I could see). Granted, point buy is still lacking, but apart from that?
B: I may be mistaken here - but the issue is not a pvp situation ("would a player playing an xy dragon be underpowered relative to xy level wizard/other characters?). But it is the typical situation of a DM faced with players who think that by the rules, monsters meant to really challenge them would not be able to do so, or ONLY if the DM cheated/did outrageous thinks/houseruled.

And I guess that's what the whole thing is about: Show a typical DM challenge, a typical task for DM to provide everyone with a challenging play experience - and how easy that is by just using the MM entry (and choosing skills, spells and feats). Not a pvp situation.

- Giacomo

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 03:20 PM
As I said, other than feats and spells, I don't plan to change anything from the stats as posted in the MM.

My argument is that the reason most dragons are such easy beats is because the DM doesn't take the time treat them like the intelligent, dangerous, crafty creatures they are supposed to be. DMs do not treat their dragons as independent creatures capable of rational thought, but rather complete and total idiots that sit there immobile waiting for the next adventurer with a sword of dragon slaying to come along.

My argument is, that in a real campaign, with a DM who plays his dragon as a living thinking being, you should be bloody terrified of these things, and not want to go anywhere near them, as opposed to seeking them out like they are the nearest ATM.

Then tell me this:

How does a neutral DM interfere with the above?
How does pre-agreed upon imbalances that will not be used interfere with the above?

If the goal is to show that a well statted dragon (feats and spells) is dangerous, then do so. When the plaintiff is also the judge, it doesn't lend well to validating a test.

ravenkith
2009-11-26, 03:25 PM
Then tell me this:

How does a neutral DM interfere with the above?
How does pre-agreed upon imbalances that will not be used interfere with the above?

If the goal is to show that a well statted dragon (feats and spells) is dangerous, then do so. When the plaintiff is also the judge, it doesn't lend well to validating a test.

Frankly I don't know anyone on here well enough to know whether a) they have common sense or b) they would be truly neutral.

Plus, as I KEEP saying, I originally intended this to be a mini-adventure with a whole plot arc and everything. <shrug>

It was meant to be a bit of light-hearted fun that ALSO happened to prove a point.


EDIT: Oh, and at one point I actually gave him a 32 pointbuy. Should have made it 28, but oh well.

Melamoto
2009-11-26, 03:29 PM
Ok, listen:

RAW a Dragon is not much of a threat.
RAI a Dragon is the most dangerous enemy you can face.

An Arena style fight does not work for the latter.
RAI is not always how things end up working.

Crunch-wise, dragons lose.

If this were a real life situation, the dragon would very often trample the heroes. Remember, a Great Wyrm will have fought and slain hundreds of adventurers before, so it knows how to deal with them. Unfortunately, if they were run this way, then they would be many CRs above what they are listed as. Therefore, they are instead run as fairly intelligent monsters.


PR has a point; Dragons are pretty weak for their CR.
Ravenkith has a point; when Dragons are run for what they are made to be, they are a lethal opponent (Barring Shivering Touch).

Milskidasith
2009-11-26, 03:31 PM
Don't forget Love's Pain!

I bet my character, McLovin, could kill a dragon fairly easily. He's a level 13 ToS character built for Love's Pain abuse. Then again, that's probably something that would be banned by RAW.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-26, 03:41 PM
If this were a real life situation, the dragon would very often trample the heroes. Remember, a Great Wyrm will have fought and slain hundreds of adventurers before, so it knows how to deal with them. Unfortunately, if they were run this way, then they would be many CRs above what they are listed as. Therefore, they are instead run as fairly intelligent monsters.

I doubt that since after hundreds of fights you're also pushing the probabilities quite a long way and Dragons are often the sorts that don't make friends easily (those that are routinely violent to the tune of hundreds of dead adventurers particularly). Fact is for this to be the case the dragon can't just win, it has to win every time with no chance of losing or it'll be ganked in the end and I don't think anyone in this threads THAT in favour of Dragons are they?

Plus, it really does depend on the level of Optifu you throw at this once ninth level spells are being chucked about, I mean are we thinking of a group of shapechanged, timestopping, forsighted, astrally projecting mages that have CoPed the dragon to the Nth degree or what? cause at twentieth that's not beyound the realms of possible, even probable if they're allowed to be built from scratch and not naturally generated by running for 20 levels of random rewards and lower power level build choices.

Edit: Also, Fist? why'd you say Epic fail on the bunny? It comes up fine on mine?:smallconfused:

Sleepingbear
2009-11-26, 03:43 PM
The party concept I had in mind would be equally effective against dragons, outsiders, aberrations, and undead.

As it should be.


DM's are mediators.

But not all mediators are DM's. My point is that it shouldn't be run as a boxing match but as an encounter. I don't think there really is much disagreement here.


As for dragon hoard? The rules for generating monster wealth are by random rolling. I'm happy with a dragon using anything it gets randomly. I'm even happy with, to a limited extent, some items being chosen (perhaps, 10-15%).

How about purchased? For example, I will often have up to half a dragons coins from it's hoard used to purchase nice things for itself.


I'm fine with rules going against me. The issue I have is with rules going against me on round 3 of combat. The time for that is before combat. Not during.
Rules imposed would need to be on the basis of effectively running the challenge. Personal whims shouldn't enter in, beyond a lack of familiarity. A good DM considers balance and fun when changing rules.

I agree with you, rules shouldn't change in the middle of combat. And by level 20 in most cases, the players and the DM know the rules at the table. Certainly it is fair to have all rules declared ahead of time. I also agree with you on when and why rules should be imposed. For example, why I wouldn't personally allow psionics is because I am not familar with the rules regarding them.

I'm just saying that every DM is different and sets different conditions. Therefore all a challenge like this proves is how things are resolved differently in different games.


There never is. But he issued it, under the idea that he can beat me every time. I'm just trying to clarify before I prove him wrong.

Fair enough. Good luck.

sofawall
2009-11-26, 03:47 PM
Ravenkith, there is a problem with you being both the DM and the one who says Dragons are the best.

You see, DMs have this fun rule called Rule 0. You can, if you want to, use Rule 0 to make a rule saying "Dragons beat equal CR parties with ease" and that's that. Doesn't make a good test though. There is a conflict of interest. Pick someone to make a mini-adventure, you've got a few volunteers. Maybe ask them to PM you links to PBPs that they've run, or something, if you don't know anyone enough to trust them to run it competently. Because, no offense to yourself, as I've not seen you before, but I have no idea if you know a breath weapon from a claw attack.

Also, I have been playing D&D since 3.5 came out. Not 2e, not the White Box, 3.5 Not that long. I'm still better informed about the rules and balance in D&D then the vast majority of people who play this game.

Melamoto
2009-11-26, 03:50 PM
I doubt that since after hundreds of fights you're also pushing the probabilities quite a long way and Dragons are often the sorts that don't make friends easily (those that are routinely violent to the tune of hundreds of dead adventurers particularly). Fact is for this to be the case the dragon can't just win, it has to win every time with no chance of losing or it'll be ganked in the end and I don't think anyone in this threads THAT in favour of Dragons are they?No, the chances of surviving so many fights ARE very low. That's why their are only a handful of Great Wyrms around. And by the time you reach that point, most adventurers may as well have a 0% chance of victory against you. Don't forget, the older the dragon gets, the less enemies there are that have a chance of killing it.


Plus, it really does depend on the level of Optifu you throw at this once ninth level spells are being chucked about, I mean are we thinking of a group of shapechanged, timestopping, forsighted, astrally projecting mages that have CoPed the dragon to the Nth degree or what? cause at twentieth that's not beyound the realms of possible, even probable if they're allowed to be built from scratch and not naturally generated by running for 20 levels of random rewards and lower power level build choices.That's why I said that it will OFTEN trample the heroes. Shapechanged, Timestopping, Foresighted, Astrally Projecting Mages are not what one would call a "normal" encounter, or indeed defeatable by...anything. Being very powerful does not make a Dragon an exception to this rule.


Edit: Also, Fist? why'd you say Epic fail on the bunny? It comes up fine on mine?:smallconfused:On the screens of others, it comes up as a picture telling you to not hotlink pictures.

ravenkith
2009-11-26, 03:55 PM
Ravenkith, there is a problem with you being both the DM and the one who says Dragons are the best.



1. That's not what I said.

I said, if I was running him through an adventure and he was facing off against a cr 25 great wyrm with 4 level 20 PHB & DMG & SPC characters, he'd get beaten every time.

He took umbrage at this. <shrug>

2. How can I prove that dragons are not being DM'd right if I'm not the DM?

sofawall
2009-11-26, 03:56 PM
1. That's not what I said.

I said, if I was running him through an adventure and he was facing off against a cr 25 great wyrm with 4 level 20 PHB & DMG & SPC characters, he'd get beaten every time.

He took umbrage at this. <shrug>

Ok. In that case: Ravenkith, there is a problem with you being both the DM and the one who says a CR 25 Great Wyrm will always beat 4 level 20 Core+SpC characters.

EDIT: Also, please address the points of people. I can't help but notice you didn't really respond to what I said, you just nitpicked at the exact wording I used. You took far too long to get around to talking about Core+SpC vs. Core+XPH, you seem to just point out bits of minutiae that really have no bearing on the overall argument.

EDIT2: Please reply to the above post before the edit, actually. I'd rather see the initial concern get addressed rather than get attacked for some imprecise wording, or something.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-26, 04:09 PM
1. That's not what I said.

I said, if I was running him through an adventure and he was facing off against a cr 25 great wyrm with 4 level 20 PHB & DMG & SPC characters, he'd get beaten every time.

He took umbrage at this. <shrug>

2. How can I prove that dragons are not being DM'd right if I'm not the DM?

And if you cheat?

mostlyharmful
2009-11-26, 04:18 PM
No, the chances of surviving so many fights ARE very low. That's why their are only a handful of Great Wyrms around. And by the time you reach that point, most adventurers may as well have a 0% chance of victory against you. Don't forget, the older the dragon gets, the less enemies there are that have a chance of killing it.

That's why I said that it will OFTEN trample the heroes. Shapechanged, Timestopping, Foresighted, Astrally Projecting Mages are not what one would call a "normal" encounter, or indeed defeatable by...anything. Being very powerful does not make a Dragon an exception to this rule.

On the screens of others, it comes up as a picture telling you to not hotlink pictures.

a 0% chance of losing and OFTEN winning are rather different. And the above spell buffs are emphatically not Optifu level stuff, they're just a moderately powerful set of tools right out of the box for a caster, using Su abilities of a nightmare, binding outsiders, Genesis and simulacrums are Optifu and they're only mid level.... like I said, it really comes down to who goes for the higher level of Optimization with their casting and the 'Dragon' parts got essentially nothing to do with that.

And the Bunny picture is damn disappointing in that case:smallredface:

Sillycomic
2009-11-26, 04:20 PM
2. How can I prove that dragons are not being DM'd right if I'm not the DM?



So, then the real argument isn't that 4 level 20 characters (optimized or not) can easily be defeated by a cr 25 (or 24 or 23) dragon. The real argument is that DM's don't play dragons very well.

If that is your real argument, then why this whole thread? I would say if anything your beef is with novice idiot DM's, not a pompous player who thinks he can set up a team to beat appropriately CR'ed dragons.

I think there is a thread out there for misfit or misunderstood Monsters, that come up with clever fluff (and some crunch) backstories on origins of monsters and why they look/fight/act the way they do.

Perhaps your argument for dming clever dragons is better moved over to that thread.

Being a novice DM myself, I would have to agree with you. I personally don't think dragons are played all that well. They should be more dangerous than some DM's stat them out to be. But oh well, what can you do about that? Not sure how goading Phoenix further along will help your argument, but what do I know...

Although, it is a shame. I would have loved to see an epic fight between a CR 24 dragon and an optimized level 20 party. Perhaps we should do that anyway, since so many people are in here to see just that.

A lot of people did come in here to see a bloody fight. We should at least give them something.

I liked a lot of Pheonix's outlines for the battle.

An agreed upon DM to mediate the thing
TOS banned cheese
CR 24 dragon out of MM but with optimized feats, skills, and spells
Appropriate treasure horde for CR, randomly rolled... except 15% used specifically for optimization
4 level 20 optimized characters (played by 4 different people)
32 point buy
Core only with PrC

Grassy field outside where the dragon can fly, but no one can escape because of GM fiat.

Now that would be an interesting fight to see.

Melamoto
2009-11-26, 04:23 PM
If those kind of mages are so common, then I'm sure the Dragon will have some powerful Githyanki hirelings with Silver Swords at the ready. When you have an Int that stretches into the 30s, you often have a lot of contingencies in effect.

And the contradiction comes in because I mean that most adventurers who challenge the dragon won't be level 20, so they will have a more or less 0% chance of victory. And if they are level 20, then they will only OFTEN be beaten down by the dragon. The exception comes in when a particularly powerful group of level 20s who have planned for the unexpected come along.

ravenkith
2009-11-26, 04:24 PM
Ok. In that case: Ravenkith, there is a problem with you being both the DM and the one who says a CR 25 Great Wyrm will always beat 4 level 20 Core+SpC characters.

EDIT: Also, please address the points of people. I can't help but notice you didn't really respond to what I said, you just nitpicked at the exact wording I used. You took far too long to get around to talking about Core+SpC vs. Core+XPH, you seem to just point out bits of minutiae that really have no bearing on the overall argument.

EDIT2: Please reply to the above post before the edit, actually. I'd rather see the initial concern get addressed rather than get attacked for some imprecise wording, or something.

Yeah that's because I haven't really been reading most of the posts, as I have mentioned previously. <shrug>

Scanning them at best. But it does bug me when people misquote me, or quote me out of context, or try to put words in my mouth.

Other than that, I'm not actually that concerned with any of this...I made an offer to show PR how to DM a dragon properly, and an assertion that under certain circumstances I could beat him every time. Circumstances, I might add, which he rejected flat out - so the assertion no longer stands in any case.

What has been irking me is his constant need to revise the basic rules, which I have no intention of agreeing to, because then the whole exercise becomes meaningless.

I also have no intention of trying to list all of the broken crap in core, and hoping that I didn't forget one, only to be told later - "well you didn't list it, so nyah nyah nyah" ::rolls eyes::

I know my rules but I don't make a habit out of memorizing every single loophole.

Sliver
2009-11-26, 04:25 PM
This will probably be ignored, but anyway, ravenkith, if your plan has nothing to do with arbitrary saying "the dragon was prepared for that" or making rule calls in your favor mid battle, there is no reason that you can't prove that dragons are strong when played wisely by playing the dragon and having someone else to do the rule calls.

What exercise? "If I decide the terms of battle and play by rules I know of but I won't be telling you them all because I don't want to right now" will fail to prove much. Just say that "With a handful of fiat, a DM can crush a group with his dragon. Because that is how it was meant to be and the rules fail to emulate that".

ravenkith
2009-11-26, 04:27 PM
This will probably be ignored, but anyway, ravenkith, if your plan has nothing to do with arbitrary saying "the dragon was prepared for that" or making rule calls in your favor mid battle, there is no reason that you can't prove that dragons are strong when played wisely by playing the dragon and having someone else to do the rule calls.

As I said, I don't know anyone on these boards well enough to trust them to do that....

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-26, 04:28 PM
I know my rules but I don't make a habit out of memorizing every single loophole.Hence my ToS recommendations. They've made a clear effort to discover every loophole, and when one is forgotten, it's added to the rule set. I think they've got most of them at this point.

Shyftir
2009-11-26, 04:29 PM
*throws a dagger between PR and ravenkith*

"There's only one way to settle this."

Seriously, are we forgetting that classic internet rule?

"Arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics, even if you win you're still retarded."*

Plus Dragons are like Nazis.

Okay I think I've satisfied all the necessary internet argument tropes. Go about your business, gentlemen.


* Not a slam on Special Olympians, those guys (and girls) are amazing!

Sliver
2009-11-26, 04:30 PM
As I said, I don't know anyone on these boards well enough to trust them to do that....

But expect to be trusted by others that you will run the opposition and be the judge fairly. Interesting..

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 04:31 PM
Frankly I don't know anyone on here well enough to know whether a) they have common sense or b) they would be truly neutral.And I do not know you. So I cannot judge whether or not you would be either.

However, I do know that you have a stake in the matter, which is a strike against most random people here. The very argument that you use to invalidate everyone else on the board invalidates you.


Plus, as I KEEP saying, I originally intended this to be a mini-adventure with a whole plot arc and everything. <shrug>Fine with that. I've got an alternative I'd like to present. Wait for it, the offer's at the end.


It was meant to be a bit of light-hearted fun that ALSO happened to prove a point.


EDIT: Oh, and at one point I actually gave him a 32 pointbuy. Should have made it 28, but oh well.
My offer: Rather than neither me or Raven doing anything here, how about both of us?

Raven runs the moderation, I'll run... the dragon.

Pick any four chumps from the board to see about stabbity defeat of a dragon-based combat engine.

That way, we seperate the role. One pro dragon, one con dragon will ensure a modicum of balance, and I think it'll be an interesting teamwork exercise for both of us.

Dekkah
2009-11-26, 04:33 PM
Ok, listen:

RAW a Dragon is not much of a threat.
RAI a Dragon is the most dangerous enemy you can face.

An Arena style fight does not work for the latter.
RAI is not always how things end up working.

Crunch-wise, dragons lose.

If this were a real life situation, the dragon would very often trample the heroes. Remember, a Great Wyrm will have fought and slain hundreds of adventurers before, so it knows how to deal with them. Unfortunately, if they were run this way, then they would be many CRs above what they are listed as. Therefore, they are instead run as fairly intelligent monsters.


PR has a point; Dragons are pretty weak for their CR.
Ravenkith has a point; when Dragons are run for what they are made to be, they are a lethal opponent (Barring Shivering Touch).


I agree with the above.
As DM, it is easy to adjust thing to make an encounter challenging, easyer or even TPK. On the other hand, DND is a game of heroes, where they can beat stuff relativly easyly when it is of their level, and even defeat stronger stuff.

Anyway, for the actual conflict, a possible solution :
1 - Raven prepares his adventure (well fleshed out, with everything in it and how they react and their strategy - this prevent the easy DM ajusting that would invalidate the test).
2 - Phoenix prepare his team (with strategy/combo explained).
3 - A 3rd party (should be multiples peoples to be more impartial) check both out beforehand to make sure there is no abuse/broken combo/etc. on either side.

Then Raven run the adventure, with one person of the 3rd party to surpervise and have final say if a disagrements happen.

ravenkith
2009-11-26, 04:37 PM
Raven runs the moderation, I'll run... the dragon.

Pick any four chumps from the board to see about stabbity defeat of a dragon-based combat engine.

That way, we seperate the role. One pro dragon, one con dragon will ensure a modicum of balance, and I think it'll be an interesting teamwork exercise for both of us.

This could actually be fun.

We would definitely have to discuss certain things in private though.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 04:40 PM
This could actually be fun.

We would definitely have to discuss certain things in private though.

I would expect you to discuss things in private with the party as well. I'd need to estimate what resources were used, methods for determining those resources, and other fun things like that.

Eurus
2009-11-26, 04:50 PM
Ok, listen:

RAW a Dragon is not much of a threat.
RAI a Dragon is the most dangerous enemy you can face.

An Arena style fight does not work for the latter.
RAI is not always how things end up working.

Crunch-wise, dragons lose.

If this were a real life situation, the dragon would very often trample the heroes. Remember, a Great Wyrm will have fought and slain hundreds of adventurers before, so it knows how to deal with them. Unfortunately, if they were run this way, then they would be many CRs above what they are listed as. Therefore, they are instead run as fairly intelligent monsters.


PR has a point; Dragons are pretty weak for their CR.
Ravenkith has a point; when Dragons are run for what they are made to be, they are a lethal opponent (Barring Shivering Touch).

Okay, so, I realize that this has long since ceased to be an argument about whether dragons are or are not over-CRed, and become something else entirely. But are dragons actually weak for their printed CR, though? I mean, obviously an optimized party can demolish pretty much anything even remotely close to an "acceptable" CR. With the wild variance in possible PC strengths, the CR system is loose at best. But how do dragons compare to other monsters?

ravenkith
2009-11-26, 04:51 PM
Alright. Anyone interested in playing the PCs?

PHB, DMG, SpC are allowed, 32 point buy, level 20.

standard wbl, Character sheets must be approved by me, and I'm a 'common sense prevails' kind of DM.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-26, 04:52 PM
Okay, so, I realize that this has long since ceased to be an argument about whether dragons are or are not over-CRed, and become something else entirely. But are dragons actually weak for their printed CR, though? I mean, obviously an optimized party can demolish pretty much anything even remotely close to an "acceptable" CR. With the wild variance in possible PC strengths, the CR system is loose at best. But how do dragons compare to other monsters?To other monsters? The Dragons are OP. D12 HD, good skills, spellcasting=half CR, 1.75*CR HD, full BAB, non-magical flight, good nat armor, mostly great stats. They're about CR+2 in terms of difficulty. It's just a well-built party is far better.

Ehra
2009-11-26, 04:55 PM
I'm also going to have to agree that the original argument was beyond silly (not to say this one isn't as well). When arguing that something is "over CR'd" and then you talk about how awesome you are at breaking the game, then that should tip you off. You didn't demolish the monster because it was over CR'd, you demolished it because you broke the game.

That's like saying Devil May Cry is too easy because you turned on beginner's mode and put in a God Mode cheat.

Toliudar
2009-11-26, 05:01 PM
That actually sounds like fun. I'd be up for that. I'm not the king of CO, but have played enough to keep the stupidities to a minimum. We'll keep this simple. How about a Human Druid 20?

Eurus
2009-11-26, 05:06 PM
To other monsters? The Dragons are OP. D12 HD, good skills, spellcasting=half CR, 1.75*CR HD, full BAB, non-magical flight, good nat armor, mostly great stats. They're about CR+2 in terms of difficulty. It's just a well-built party is far better.

See, that's what I thought. The CR system isn't particularly good at comparing monsters to PC parties, just because the difference between a "well-built" party and one that's not is so huge. But all that means is that you honestly can't use the strength of a given party as a measuring tool for monster strength. Dragons are strong monsters -- relatively speaking. And you won't see a Great Wyrm getting toasted by an Allip, either. :smallamused:

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 05:09 PM
That actually sounds like fun. I'd be up for that. I'm not the king of CO, but have played enough to keep the stupidities to a minimum. We'll keep this simple. How about a Human Druid 20?

I don't think DMM works with spells not on the list of the class giving you turning... I could be mistaken, but that's the way I've always done it...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-26, 05:10 PM
See, that's what I thought. The CR system isn't particularly good at comparing monsters to PC parties, just because the difference between a "well-built" party and one that's not is so huge. But all that means is that you honestly can't use the strength of a given party as a measuring tool for monster strength. Dragons are strong monsters -- relatively speaking. And you won't see a Great Wyrm getting toasted by an Allip, either. :smallamused:Keep in mind they still have useless feats, skills, and spells. They're poorly built, with good numbers.

Bibliomancer
2009-11-26, 05:14 PM
Keep in mind they still have useless feats, skills, and spells. They're poorly built, with good numbers.

Those are sample in the MM, and the DM can change them is 1) he or she has time and 2) feels that it would make sense (it usually does). A dragon selecting metamagic feats or Improved Spell Capacity is incredibly effective, since they receive so many feats from their high HD.

Also, if you're looking for players, are you allowed to play a level 20 wizard who immediately teleports out to find something more level-appropriate?

Lastly, will the Dragon be allowed to design its own lair, and what initial information can the players attempt to gather?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 05:23 PM
Those are sample in the MM, and the DM can change them is 1) he or she has time and 2) feels that it would make sense (it usually does). A dragon selecting metamagic feats or Improved Spell Capacity is incredibly effective, since they receive so many feats from their high HD.Actually, I don't believe feats are laid out in the MM.


Also, if you're looking for players, are you allowed to play a level 20 wizard who immediately teleports out to find something more level-appropriate?Up to the DM, but I'll be doing my best to limit such tactics on my end.


Lastly, will the Dragon be allowed to design its own lair, and what initial information can the players attempt to gather?
I'd hope I get to build my own home. It's reasonable to venture forays into gathering information. I'll likely work with Raven to provide an opening hook, and let player actions go from there.

Toliudar
2009-11-26, 05:28 PM
I don't think DMM works with spells not on the list of the class giving you turning... I could be mistaken, but that's the way I've always done it...

I think DMM actually affects divine spells. As it turns out, that's irrelevant to this, since DMM wouldn't be available to me anyway - hence the shift back to Druid 20.

Eurus
2009-11-26, 05:37 PM
Keep in mind they still have useless feats, skills, and spells. They're poorly built, with good numbers.

As far as I can see, there are no given spell/feat/skill lists for dragons in general, just some for specific example dragon NPCs. The book mentions what things dragons are likely to take, but those are guidelines. I think the assumption is that, if you're going to throw a dragon at your party, you can take the time to customize it yourself.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-26, 05:51 PM
standard wbl, Character sheets must be approved by me, and I'm a 'common sense prevails' kind of DM.
There you go. (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=27364)

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 05:59 PM
As far as I can see, there are no given spell/feat/skill lists for dragons in general, just some for specific example dragon NPCs. The book mentions what things dragons are likely to take, but those are guidelines. I think the assumption is that, if you're going to throw a dragon at your party, you can take the time to customize it yourself.

Exactly. There will be customization of the customizable.

Tehnar
2009-11-26, 10:12 PM
Ill submit my ranger: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169196

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-26, 11:28 PM
Need moar Hunter's Eye.

Tehnar
2009-11-27, 07:39 AM
Need moar Hunter's Eye.

I'm not familiar with that spell?/feat?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-27, 09:01 AM
I know of Hunter's Mercy, which is pretty good. Other spells would be not in the approved book list.

Tehnar
2009-11-27, 09:12 AM
Its a standard action though, and I still have to hit next round. Though I have it memorized if needed.

I'll be more then happy if I can get the no range penalties (Guided Shot), auto confirm criticals (exacting shot) and Find the Gap at one time.

ZombieGenesis
2009-11-27, 09:22 AM
There you go. (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=27364)

You can't use Seto in D&D!
His cumbersome wealth makes a farce of the regulations...

I'd still love to see this sheet used though.

jseah
2009-11-27, 12:41 PM
Seto is missing some of the more strategic spells.

Can I suggest Contact Other Plane and Legend Lore?

Or get access to Divination. Yes/no questions. Remember that "was the answer to the previous question correct?" counts as a different question.

Also try to stay invisible to divination. Even if it means sacrificing slots to have mindblank up at all times.

Cleric/Druid level 6: Find the Path
- It tells you how to bypass traps. XD Note that you cannot ward traps against divination. (mind blank is creature only, and there's no specific counter to Find the Path)

Eurus
2009-11-27, 12:52 PM
Seto is missing some of the more strategic spells.

Can I suggest Contact Other Plane and Legend Lore?

Or get access to Divination. Yes/no questions. Remember that "was the answer to the previous question correct?" counts as a different question.

Also try to stay invisible to divination. Even if it means sacrificing slots to have mindblank up at all times.

Cleric/Druid level 6: Find the Path
- It tells you how to bypass traps. XD Note that you cannot ward traps against divination. (mind blank is creature only, and there's no specific counter to Find the Path)

You mean, besides Hide the Path? :smallwink: (Spell Compendium, if you're wondering, so it doesn't even count as obscure)

jseah
2009-11-27, 12:56 PM
You mean, besides Hide the Path? :smallwink: (Spell Compendium, if you're wondering, so it doesn't even count as obscure)
My apologies. I did not know about that spell.

Still, 24 hour duration means it's a reactive defense. So I recommend the druid preparing 1 Find the Path anyway just to make the dragon spend resources countering it.

Resources that will take it's gold to do so since it doesn't get druid casting.
Unless the dragon is a cleric? Is that even possible?

And it doesn't block the Divination pseudo-scrying if you're not in it.

lord_khaine
2009-11-27, 01:12 PM
Or get access to Divination. Yes/no questions. Remember that "was the answer to the previous question correct?" counts as a different question.


What is that going to help?
If the first answer is yes, and the second answer is no, how do you then know whats the correct answer? the only thing this would do is waste your questions.

Asbestos
2009-11-27, 01:26 PM
Am I the only one that keeps misreading the thread title as "Dagon Vs. Party" and thinking "Wow, those guys are screwed"

jseah
2009-11-27, 01:28 PM
What is that going to help?
If the first answer is yes, and the second answer is no, how do you then know whats the correct answer? the only thing this would do is waste your questions.
1st qn (subject matter): X
- Confidence in correct answer 0.9

2nd qn (test 1st qn):
Yes
- Confidence in 1st qn answer 1 - 0.1^2
No
- Confidence in 1st qn answer 1 - 0.1*0.9 + 0.1 * 0.1

3rd qn is where it really starts.
3rd qn (test 2nd qn):
2Yes/3Yes
- Confidence in 1st qn answer 1 - 0.1^3
2Yes/3No
- Confidence in 1st qn answer 1 - 0.1*0.1*0.9 + uh...

...

Urgh. Someone with a better head for statistics can try this. Ás for me, I'll see if I can't Monte Carlo the problem away.

Anyway, succeeding qns improve your confidence in your answer exponentially. So you probably don't need more than three.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-27, 01:36 PM
My apologies. I did not know about that spell.

Still, 24 hour duration means it's a reactive defense. So I recommend the druid preparing 1 Find the Path anyway just to make the dragon spend resources countering it.

Resources that will take it's gold to do so since it doesn't get druid casting.
Unless the dragon is a cleric? Is that even possible?

And it doesn't block the Divination pseudo-scrying if you're not in it.

IIRC, all dragons cast spells as a Sorceror/Wizard, at great wyrm level.
Several dragons get to cast cleric spells and a domain or three as arcane, as well.
Not saying I'm using one (not saying I'm not), but I did look over every dragon in the MM (SRD) before choosing my combat platform.

jiriku
2009-11-27, 02:04 PM
I'd play in this. Is there room for a second full arcane caster? I love me my wizards, and I could pick a lot of utility spells that Seto doesn't have room for. If Seto doesn't want anyone else in the limelight, I could play something barbarian-ish clerical.

Edit: Decided that knowing how to read is more fun. Sub utility cleric for BSF barbarian.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-27, 03:04 PM
Hey, we've established no rules for party composition. If there's 4 clerics, it's in bounds (barring Raven banning it). I have no problem with any party composition you like. 4 beatsticks is not advised, though. At least, not without careful inspection of dragon AC and HP, and determining that you could effectively engage a creature with a rather high fly speed.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-27, 03:04 PM
I'm not familiar with that spell?/feat?
It's in the SpC. It gives you sneak attack.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-27, 03:06 PM
It's in the SpC. It gives you sneak attack.

I didn't see it in SpC.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-27, 03:09 PM
Seto is missing some of the more strategic spells.

Can I suggest Contact Other Plane and Legend Lore?
I'm banking on a cleric or wizard being in the party.

CoP is handled by my Imp familiar.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-27, 03:16 PM
possible second arcane PC (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=143324) if anyone wants to use him without having to bother writing one up... core only and a little cheesey in the prep routine but easily fixable.

Eldariel
2009-11-27, 03:18 PM
Am I the only one that keeps misreading the thread title as "Dagon Vs. Party" and thinking "Wow, those guys are screwed"

Probably given how D&D "Dragon" is, but yeah, Dagon would pretty much eff them up royally.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-27, 03:19 PM
Probably given how D&D "Dragon" is, but yeah, Dagon would pretty much eff them up royally.

Pffft. All I'd have to do is chant "Hastur Hastur Hastu -"

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-27, 03:22 PM
Just to note: Hunter's Eye isn't in the SPC.

Coidzor
2009-11-27, 04:25 PM
So... No acceptable volunteers for mediator or have you two hashed out enough of the rules to stop fighting? I sorta started glazing over from the walls of text and then they abruptly stopped.

PF: I love Seto, by the way. Might wanna check your name on the sheet though.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-27, 04:26 PM
So... No acceptable volunteers for mediator or have you two hashed out enough of the rules to stop fighting? I sorta started glazing over from the walls of text and then they abruptly stopped.

PF: I love Seto, by the way. Might wanna check your name on the sheet though.

LOL, you're a page too late. I made an offer. Raven's Mediator. I'm dragon.

jiriku
2009-11-27, 04:33 PM
Groovy. Watcha say, Ravenkith, am I in?


A few years ago, I had a debate with a friend who swore up and down that a lvl 20 wizard could solo a CR 20 dragon. We tested it twice, once with me DMing and him playing the wizard, and again with the situations reversed. Result: dragon 1, wizard 1. This is not quite the same, and I'm interested to see how it turns out.

Coidzor
2009-11-27, 04:35 PM
LOL, you're a page too late. I made an offer. Raven's Mediator. I'm dragon.

Ah. Yeah, definitely missed that bit there. Sounds fun.

Mongoose87
2009-11-27, 04:44 PM
It seems kind of flawed to have the guy trying to prove dragons are strong mediate and have the guy arguing with him play the dragon.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-27, 04:47 PM
It seems kind of flawed to have the guy trying to prove dragons are strong mediate and have the guy arguing with him play the dragon.
Having the guy trying to prove dragons are stronger both mediating, DMing, and playing the dragon is worse.

Mongoose87
2009-11-27, 05:21 PM
Having the guy trying to prove dragons are stronger both mediating, DMing, and playing the dragon is worse.

This is true. I just feel switching them around would be more effective.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-27, 05:22 PM
This is true. I just feel switching them around would be more effective.

Ravenkith wasn't prepared to trust anyone else to run it.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-27, 10:15 PM
Well, that's easy. I won't ask for anything I feel is against the rules for a dragon environment. I'm going to play it like I would DM it. The only thing the DM will do is restrict any actions that he feels is out of the spirit of the competition. (as he is doing for abuses in the Players, as well).

I'm optimizing the dragon as best I can, and doing the craftiest tactics I can, but I'm not attempting to circumvent the rules or the spirit of the dragon.

And as nasty as I make it, I can make PC's worse. Even with what I made, I feel the party has a chance, unless they fall for the numerous tricks I've plotted, from my experience as a DM.

That said, I have the gloves off. Level 20 parties aren't a joke.

Myrmex
2009-11-27, 10:18 PM
Well, that's easy. I won't ask for anything I feel is against the rules for a dragon environment. I'm going to play it like I would DM it. The only thing the DM will do is restrict any actions that he feels is out of the spirit of the competition. (as he is doing for abuses in the Players, as well).

I'm optimizing the dragon as best I can, and doing the craftiest tactics I can, but I'm not attempting to circumvent the rules or the spirit of the dragon.

And as nasty as I make it, I can make PC's worse. Even with what I made, I feel the party has a chance, unless they fall for the numerous tricks I've plotted, from my experience as a DM.

That said, I have the gloves off. Level 20 parties aren't a joke.

/salivating

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-27, 10:45 PM
I wouldn't mind trying my own wizard, but it takes me a freakishly long time to build characters.

Though I could probably curb-stomp just about anything you sent at me, solo. And core-only, mind. Barring epic casting, anyway.

Though you seem to more-or-less have a full party about to go anyway.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-27, 11:00 PM
I wouldn't mind trying my own wizard, but it takes me a freakishly long time to build characters.

Though I could probably curb-stomp just about anything you sent at me, solo. And core-only, mind. Barring epic casting, anyway.

Though you seem to more-or-less have a full party about to go anyway.

Epic Casting isn't core, I believe. I don't have it, regardless. I'm fairly confident it'll take more than one character to beat me though. ;)

jiriku
2009-11-28, 01:18 AM
Epic Casting isn't core, I believe. I don't have it, regardless. I'm fairly confident it'll take more than one character to beat me though. ;)

I could take you with a single commoner and one non-core feat...involving chickens. :D

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-28, 01:41 AM
I could take you with a single commoner and one non-core feat...involving chickens. :DI'd make a joke involving choking him with chickens, but it would be in rather bad...er...taste.


Epic Casting isn't core, I believe. I don't have it, regardless. I'm fairly confident it'll take more than one character to beat me though. ;)I dunno; I can pull in things more powerful than you with a single spell, and be pretty much untouchable unless you know exactly what I'm planning, and have prepared extensively for it.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 10:17 AM
I'd make a joke involving choking him with chickens, but it would be in rather bad...er...taste.

I dunno; I can pull in things more powerful than you with a single spell, and be pretty much untouchable unless you know exactly what I'm planning, and have prepared extensively for it.

I'm staying away from blatant cheese. I'm well-built, but I'm staying away from any blatantly unbalanced spells, feats, or combos. Consider it my sense of fair play.

And I do believe chicken infested is a flaw, not a feat.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-28, 11:12 AM
I'm staying away from blatant cheese. I'm well-built, but I'm staying away from any blatantly unbalanced spells, feats, or combos. Consider it my sense of fair play."Screw the rules; I have spell-slots!"


And I do believe chicken infested is a flaw, not a feat.That it is. Though it should be a feat, considering that you really don't get many downsides with it (especially with Quick Draw).

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 11:22 AM
"Screw the rules; I have spell-slots!"As do I. I don't know of a single Great Wyrm that doesn't... In core, at least.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-28, 11:32 AM
So is there a thread being started up anywhere?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-28, 11:37 AM
As do I. I don't know of a single Great Wyrm that doesn't... In core, at least."Screw the rules; I have more/higher spell slots"?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 11:45 AM
"Screw the rules; I have more/higher spell slots"?

Depends on the dragon, lol. A party of 4 certainly will have, at the least, more.

However, with 23 or 24 CR? I could get 10th level slots in core with a dragon, if I liked that sorta thing.

Toliudar
2009-11-28, 02:23 PM
I'd forgotten how long high level spellcasters take. There's a chunk of money, skill points and spells yet to be allocated, but here's my druid (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169168).

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 02:27 PM
I'd forgotten how long high level spellcasters take. There's a chunk of money, skill points and spells yet to be allocated, but here's my druid (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169168).

Tell me about it. I had to make a spell list, a feat list, and generate a hoard... Randomly.

Got good results, mostly, though.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-11-28, 06:09 PM
Just to note: Hunter's Eye isn't in the SPC.

Hunter's Eye is in PHB2, for the record, which makes it unusable for this test, I believe.

EDIT: It's also not too good for a ranger, due to it being based on 1/3 your caster level for the effect, sadly.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 06:34 PM
Hunter's Eye is in PHB2, for the record, which makes it unusable for this test, I believe.

EDIT: It's also not too good for a ranger, due to it being based on 1/3 your caster level for the effect, sadly.

Practiced Spellcaster FTW? lol

Rogue 7
2009-11-29, 01:54 PM
I feel like someone should be doing wrestling announcements for this...

*sits down, starts munching popcorn*

Be sure to throw up a link to where the fight's gonna go down, yeah?

drevil
2009-11-29, 03:36 PM
Hi,

As I am a noob, I would like to know how these guys are going to settle this?
How are they gonna fight each other?
Is it gonna happen over the internet? If yes, where?

Because I would really like to watch this.

A Great Wyrm with Anti-Magic Field is difficult to defeat.

ex cathedra
2009-11-29, 03:39 PM
Hi,

As I am a noob, I would like to know how these guys are going to settle this?
How are they gonna fight each other?
Is it gonna happen over the internet? If yes, where?

Because I would really like to watch this.

A Great Wyrm with Anti-Magic Field is difficult to defeat.

The dragon would probably be more effective in an environment in which his magic functions, actually.

They'll probably do it in another portion of these forums; I'm sure a link to it will appear here.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 03:42 PM
Hi,

As I am a noob, I would like to know how these guys are going to settle this?
How are they gonna fight each other?
Is it gonna happen over the internet? If yes, where?

Because I would really like to watch this.

A Great Wyrm with Anti-Magic Field is difficult to defeat.

Pull back, lob Orbs at it.

Oslecamo
2009-11-29, 03:45 PM
Pull back, lob Orbs at it.

How exactly you pull back from something moving 240 feets per turn and can afford to get enough hide modifier for the wizard never to see him?

Tshern
2009-11-29, 03:50 PM
I might be able to give this a try at around Christmas, in case there is a willing DM. Sorry for the long time limit, but building the party will take time.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 03:52 PM
How exactly you pull back from something moving 240 feets per turn and can afford to get enough hide modifier for the wizard never to see him?

Teleport.

Also, Colossal Great Wyrms can only hide behind geographical features. Just fyi. Might want to think about that before posting things relating to colossal creatures hiding.

Unless it's a shadowdancer Great Wyrm, but that would put it beyond the indicated CR of the challenge. Plus, the person running it said he wouldn't be giving it class levels.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-29, 04:05 PM
Teleport.

Also, Colossal Great Wyrms can only hide behind geographical features. Just fyi. Might want to think about that before posting things relating to colossal creatures hiding.

Unless it's a shadowdancer Great Wyrm, but that would put it beyond the indicated CR of the challenge. Plus, the person running it said he wouldn't be giving it class levels.

the water breathing ones can often hide quite well in their chosen environments, as can the burrowing desert ones to be fair.... geographical features don't have to be impossible to find

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 04:09 PM
The statement he made felt far more general than that.

Eurus
2009-11-29, 04:15 PM
Teleport.

Also, Colossal Great Wyrms can only hide behind geographical features. Just fyi. Might want to think about that before posting things relating to colossal creatures hiding.

Unless it's a shadowdancer Great Wyrm, but that would put it beyond the indicated CR of the challenge. Plus, the person running it said he wouldn't be giving it class levels.

Magic helps with that. Not once there's an Antimagic Field up, of course, but it helps the dragon get close enough to make use of the AMF before casting it. Shadow Form provides concealment, a potion of Camouflage is ridiculously cheap for a dragon, and its speed is great enough to make most non-sight location methods moot; by the time it gets within range of your Blindsense or whatever, it's already on top of you.

Obviously it's not foolproof - nothing is - but personally, I'd be quite scared of a dragon that suddenly flies up, quickens an AMF with a metamagic rod (or alternately, activates a contingent AMF with a growled curse; no items required for that), and readies an action to follow you if you try to run away.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 04:19 PM
Magic helps with that. Not once there's an Antimagic Field up, of course, but it helps the dragon get close enough to make use of the AMF before casting it. Shadow Form provides concealment, a potion of Camouflage is ridiculously cheap for a dragon, and its speed is great enough to make most non-sight location methods moot; by the time it gets within range of your Blindsense or whatever, it's already on top of you.

Obviously it's not foolproof - nothing is - but personally, I'd be quite scared of a dragon that suddenly flies up, quickens an AMF with a metamagic rod (or alternately, activates a contingent AMF with a growled curse; no items required for that), and readies an action to follow you if you try to run away.

AMF has a radius of 10 feet. Back up and teleport.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-29, 04:22 PM
AMF has a radius of 10 feet. Back up and teleport.

Meh, once the dragons taken it's own spellcasting out of the equation you're dealing with a big dumb brute opponent, you shouldn't need to teleport far, move action away and then use your greater manuverability with the Fly spell to take you above the damn thing and then (as you said) lob orbs at it until it dies. Or else target the bits of it not inside the AMF field since by the time a dragon gets 6th level spells it's too big to fit inside.

Eurus
2009-11-29, 04:25 PM
AMF has a radius of 10 feet. Back up and teleport.

Hence the readied action to pursue. Because there's no way your wizard has a higher unbuffed move speed than the dragon. Sure, it's potentially a waste of a standard action, but if it means that the dragon can rip you a new one next turn, it's worth it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 04:25 PM
Hence the readied action to pursue. Because there's no way your wizard has a higher unbuffed move speed than the dragon. Sure, it's potentially a waste of a standard action, but if it means that the dragon can rip you a new one next turn, it's worth it.
Incidentally, dragons can't use MM rods.

It's land speed is 60 feet. A caster with Boots of Speed can pull that on a move action, and outmatch that on a double move action.

It's fly speed is that of clumsy, which means it can't, among other things, turn in place.

Eurus
2009-11-29, 04:27 PM
How does it pursue on your round?

With a readied action. The fact that the action triggers before the action that triggered it makes it a tad more complicated, but "If he moves away from me and then tries to do anything, move to engage him" should still work.

EDIT: Why not? I was under the impression that they could use essentially any magic item that a human could, even if it looked a bit awkward. Though like I said, Contingency works just as well.

EDIT 2: Your boots of speed don't work if you're in an Antimagic Field. And yes, it's fly speed is clumsy, but its speed is, in all likelihood, high enough to circle around and get to you anyway instead of doing a 180.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 04:31 PM
A dragon's land speed is 60 feet. A caster with Boots of Speed can pull that on a move action, and outmatch that on a double move action.

It's fly speed is that of clumsy, which means it can't among other things, turn in place. Seriously, it has horrible mobility. Withdraw past it in the opposite direction and it can't follow.

And the boots work well enough OUTSIDE of one. Which you will be in about 10 feet.

Oslecamo
2009-11-29, 04:32 PM
Teleport.

Takes a standard action (so no orb shooting) and the dragon can get feats to improve his own flight capacities.



Also, Colossal Great Wyrms can only hide behind geographical features. Just fyi. Might want to think about that before posting things relating to colossal creatures hiding.

Clouds are pretty big last time I checked. Weather manipulation before AMF to make heavy rain fall or rise fogs or a snowstorm. There's your giant cover.

Or just fight at night. I don't recall anyway of geting 240 feets darkvision.



Unless it's a shadowdancer Great Wyrm, but that would put it beyond the indicated CR of the challenge. Plus, the person running it said he wouldn't be giving it class levels.
Shadow template. Just +1 CR. And I bet there are ways of geting it whitout class levels or templates.

Eurus
2009-11-29, 04:32 PM
With a readied action. The fact that the action triggers before the action that triggered it makes it a tad more complicated, but "If he moves away from me and then tries to do anything, move to engage him" should still work.

EDIT: Why not? I was under the impression that they could use essentially any magic item that a human could, even if it looked a bit awkward. Though like I said, Contingency works just as well.

EDIT 2: Your boots of speed don't work if you're in an Antimagic Field. And yes, it's fly speed is clumsy, but its speed is, in all likelihood, high enough to circle around and get to you anyway instead of doing a 180.

Reposting, because it gets difficult to keep track of arguments when edits are flying around.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-29, 04:34 PM
There's also the marvolous Phantom Steed point, flight at dragon speeds with better manuverablitiy and you don't even need to take actions. Goes away in a AMF but it's been mentioned there's ways around that.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 04:37 PM
Takes a standard action (so no orb shooting) and the dragon can get feats to improve his own flight capacities.
If only there was a rod of some sort that would allow you to quicken spells.



Clouds are pretty big last time I checked. Weather manipulation before AMF to make heavy rain fall or rise fogs or a snowstorm. There's your giant cover.

Clouds are also very high in the air. 6500 feet or so at least iirc. The dragon, flying down and moving at max speed with Haste, only runs 4320 feet in a full round action.

Now, if you're going to use Fog, rain, or snowstorm, then there's the question of how you see me.



Or just fight at night. I don't recall anyway of geting 240 feets darkvision.

How does he see me then?


Shadow template. Just +1 CR. And I bet there are ways of geting it whitout class levels or templates.
In core + SpC? You'll have to enlighten me.

Also, how do you overcome the -32 hide check for Colossal?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 04:38 PM
Reposting, because it gets difficult to keep track of arguments when edits are flying around.

Boots work well enough outside of one, which you will be in about 10 feet.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 04:42 PM
A dragon's land speed is 60 feet. A caster with Boots of Speed can pull that on a move action, and outmatch that on a double move action.

It's fly speed is that of clumsy, which means it can't among other things, turn in place. Seriously, it has horrible mobility. Withdraw past it in the opposite direction and it can't follow.

And the boots work well enough OUTSIDE of one. Which you will be in about 10 feet.

It's possible for flyers to turn in place. Even clumsy ones.

For the Shadow template person? I don't know of any way inside of core without templates or class levels. That's not to say I'm not planning on hiding. Just that HiPS isn't part of my mission plan.

EDIT: Haven't heard from Raven in some time. Who are the competitors?

I know Pharoah was in, and I saw a druid, ranger, and backup arcane in there.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 04:45 PM
It's possible for flyers to turn in place. Even clumsy ones.

For the Shadow template person? I don't know of any way inside of core without templates or class levels. That's not to say I'm not planning on hiding. Just that HiPS isn't part of my mission plan.

Isn't there a minimum forward movement thing clumsy fliers have to keep up?

Which would imply that if he readies a standard action to follow, you just stay in place, wait for him to fly past, and then cast spells.

Or, if he's charging down from the clouds, wait for him to splat into the ground...

Eurus
2009-11-29, 04:46 PM
Even with clumsy maneuverability, the dragon still has enough speed to - in one move action - circle around and get to you. Assume that it started out 5-10 feet above or below you you, and approached from the west. You move 60 feet east. The dragon flies west 10 feet, turns 45 degrees. Flies southwest 10 feet, turns another 45 degrees. Flies south 10 feet - you get the idea. It takes the dragon about 100 feet of movement (if I figured this correctly) to end up 20 feet east of where it started, facing you. It then has another 100-150 feet of movement to use to chase you down. So unless you managed to get over 170 feet away in one move action... yeah. Ridiculously high fly speeds do still have their advantages, even at higher levels.

EDIT: If you choose not to dodge, that just means that the dragon has to move again on its next turn (since it already moved this turn to get close to you). Except it doesn't, because it decides to land on you instead. They did give it an entire special attack exclusively for that purpose, after all...

Tshern
2009-11-29, 04:48 PM
Does the flight speed really matter? Four flying creatures going to different directions still means that the dragon faces a three men barrage.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 04:49 PM
Isn't there a minimum forward movement thing clumsy fliers have to keep up?

Which would imply that if he readies a standard action to follow, you just stay in place, wait for him to fly past, and then cast spells.

Or, if he's charging down from the clouds, wait for him to splat into the ground...

Minimum forward movement can be circumvented. I can take a 240 move clumsy flyer and move it as much as 230 feet in any direction but up (115 in that direction) and down (460) on a moment's notice, without any minimum whatsoever applying, and no risk of stalling. Not to mention, at ground level, which an AMF move-away would likely be at, the consequences for flying 5 feet above the ground is falling... 5 feet. Which is essentially no penalty for not maintaining minimum movement.


Does the flight speed really matter? Four flying creatures going to different directions still means that the dragon faces a three men barrage.

I've thought of that too. I sincerely hope the party decides that splitting up is the way to go. I've never had problems mauling a split party.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-29, 04:54 PM
again with the Phantom Steed, wizards fly faster than Dragons and do it without expending actions.

Eurus
2009-11-29, 04:54 PM
Does the flight speed really matter? Four flying creatures going to different directions still means that the dragon faces a three men barrage.

I'd like to think that if the party is reduced to letting the dragon pick which of them it wants to maul, they're in a tight spot. :smalltongue:


again with the Phantom Steed, wizards fly faster than Dragons and do it without expending actions.

AMF blinks it out, since it's not an instantaneous conjuration.

Tshern
2009-11-29, 04:54 PM
It's not like they are switching continents and the dragon can start hunting them with all the time it needs. We are talking about moving a single move action away. The dragon goes and tries to maul a character, the three others kill it. While the dragon is busy moving about, the other three just start gating in a lot more dangerous dragons and start flying towards the proverbial bank.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 04:59 PM
I'd like to think that if the party is reduced to letting the dragon pick which of them it wants to maul, they're in a tight spot. :smalltongue:

I find it interesting that the dragon devotes all his actions to locking down one party member.

Pity there are three others.

Eurus
2009-11-29, 05:04 PM
It's not like they are switching continents and the dragon can start hunting them with all the time it needs. We are talking about moving a single move action away. The dragon goes and tries to maul a character, the three others kill it. While the dragon is busy moving about, the other three just start gating in a lot more dangerous dragons and start flying towards the proverbial bank.

So this is an entire party capable of casting 9th level spells/UMDing 9th level scrolls? :smallconfused: Possible, granted, but that sounds like escalation to me - great wyrm dragons can cast Gate too, y'know, and have had a heck of a lot longer to spend gating and mindraping various flavors of outsider. Is that really a can of wyrms that you want to open? :smalltongue: Pun absolutely intended.

Also, the dragon will only need a round or so to take down Batman McWizard. In all likelihood, the dragon is going to snatch him up in the turn immediately following his appearance, putting him more or less solidly out of commission (I'd like to see the wizard that can out-grapple a dragon in an Antimagic Field, even with the dragon taking the penalties to not be considered grappled himself). Next turn, it uses Fly-By Attack + Snatch to scoop up a second party member. And the third the round after that. And then land on the fourth.

Oslecamo
2009-11-29, 05:05 PM
It's not like they are switching continents and the dragon can start hunting them with all the time it needs. We are talking about moving a single move action away. The dragon goes and tries to maul a character, the three others kill it. While the dragon is busy moving about, the other three just start gating in a lot more dangerous dragons and start flying towards the proverbial bank.

Yoh, gawd, I heard you liked gating dragons, so we put you against a dragon who gates dragons, so you can gate dragons while you're eaten alive by the dragon gating dragons.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 05:09 PM
Also, the dragon will only need a round or so to take down Batman McWizard. In all likelihood, the dragon is going to snatch him up in the turn immediately following his appearance, putting him more or less solidly out of commission (I'd like to see the wizard that can out-grapple a dragon in an Antimagic Field, even with the dragon taking the penalties to not be considered grappled himself). Next turn, it uses Fly-By Attack + Snatch to scoop up a second party member. And the third the round after that. And then land on the fourth.

Run your pretty little dragon and we'll see how well it does. Ask PR to take over the dragon for him. That way PR can play.

Incidentally, the dragon does not get longer to spend mindraping outsiders. The caster can be as old as him, and all casters at level 20 get more 9th level spells than the dragon.

It only casts as sorcerer level 17, remember?

mostlyharmful
2009-11-29, 05:10 PM
So this is an entire party capable of casting 9th level spells/UMDing 9th level scrolls? :smallconfused: Possible, granted, but that sounds like escalation to me - great wyrm dragons can cast Gate too, y'know, and have had a heck of a lot longer to spend gating and mindraping various flavors of outsider. Is that really a can of wyrms that you want to open? :smalltongue:.

why do they have longer? any caster can be immortal long before 20th. Plus if it's really about caster shinanigans then the 'dragon' parts a complete wipe, you're now just two duelling arcane casters and one of you's got a swankier bed.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 05:10 PM
I find it interesting that the dragon devotes all his actions to locking down one party member.

Pity there are three others.

I like this idea. Please use it.

EDIT: Side note: I'm avoiding gate escalation. I'm avoiding this as I feel it's an unbalanced representation of combat. Similarly, I'm avoiding simulacrum, as I feel it's so crazily broken, that it's not funny.

Tshern
2009-11-29, 05:15 PM
So this is an entire party capable of casting 9th level spells/UMDing 9th level scrolls? :smallconfused: Possible, granted, but that sounds like escalation to me -- great wyrm dragons can cast Gate too, y'know, and have had a heck of a lot longer to spend gating and mindraping various flavors of outsider.
No, it doesn't need to be so. First off, if the dragon uses the AMF tactics and shoots cripples itself, there is no Gate from the dragon. Secondly, the dragon has four characters to chase, so at worst there would be a single caster to bombarding the dragon, I am assuming ranged attacks from bows would be pretty ineffective in this situation. This assumes the dragon ever even finds out where the people are, which is easily avoided with Superior Invisibility. While the dragon can do the same thing, that would still not mean the party loses, because the status quo would remain in place.


Also, the dragon will only need a round or so to take down Batman McWizard. In all likelihood, the dragon is going to snatch him up in the turn immediately following his appearance, putting him more or less solidly out of commission (I'd like to see the wizard that can out-grapple a dragon in an Antimagic Field, even with the dragon taking the penalties to not be considered grappled himself). Next turn, it uses Fly-By Attack + Snatch to scoop up a second party member. And the third the round after that. And then land on the fourth.
Heh, the dragon needs a life time to take out a Wizard. If the Wizard wants to, he will not die against the dragon. Contingencies, defenses and divinations are there to help. And, of course, three other meatbags standing by his side. Figuratively speaking.

In short, Wizard uses his 8th level slots to Superior Invisibility (something he might or might not be able to cast as an immediate action, thanks Proteus!) and makes all senses apart from touch totally useless. Then the dragon is up against four creatures it cannot perceive without True seeing and thus unable to break the status quo.

Simply, I don't believe the dragon ever gets a chance to get close to the party members unless they want to. You can even have the Wizard craft some Superior Invisibilities as contingent spells.

Eurus
2009-11-29, 05:17 PM
why do they have longer? any caster can be immortal long before 20th. Plus if it's really about caster shinanigans then the 'dragon' parts a complete wipe, you're now just two duelling arcane casters and one of you's got a swankier bed.

My point exactly. This seems to sort of defy the spirit of the challenge.


Run your pretty little dragon and we'll see how well it does. Ask PR to take over the dragon for him. That way PR can play.

Incidentally, the dragon does not get longer to spend mindraping outsiders. The caster can be as old as him, and all casters at level 20 get more 9th level spells than the dragon.

It only casts as sorcerer level 17, remember?

Wait, do we have a specific color decided on already? I thought it was any CR 25 great wyrm. I've been assuming metallic, not chromatic. :smallamused:

Also, I actually wouldn't half mind running the dragon (with some help and advice, of course). And I'm not insisting that the dragon would win - I've admitted that it's in no way foolproof, and a party of four optimized characters stands a good chance (unless they happen to be four optimized spellcasters, in which case I'm frankly not liking the dragon's chances at all). I'm just insistent that a dragon is not as weak of a combatant as it's made out to be.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 05:22 PM
I like this idea. Please use it.

EDIT: Side note: I'm avoiding gate escalation. I'm avoiding this as I feel it's an unbalanced representation of combat. Similarly, I'm avoiding simulacrum, as I feel it's so crazily broken, that it's not funny.

No astral projection either.


I'm just insistent that a dragon is not as weak of a combatant as it's made out to be.

I'm not saying it's weak, I'm just saying we can kill it.

Also, that Oscalemo is wrong about some things.

Eurus
2009-11-29, 05:26 PM
No, it doesn't need to be so. First off, if the dragon uses the AMF tactics and shoots cripples itself, there is no Gate from the dragon. Secondly, the dragon has four characters to chase, so at worst there would be a single caster to bombarding the dragon, I am assuming ranged attacks from bows would be pretty ineffective in this situation. This assumes the dragon ever even finds out where the people are, which is easily avoided with Superior Invisibility. While the dragon can do the same thing, that would still not mean the party loses, because the status quo would remain in place.

Oh no, you misunderstand. Dragon gates Solar. Dragon mindrapes Solar into obedience, perhaps by convincing it that the dragon is in fact the god that the Solar worships. Dragon tells Solar to Plane Shift back to the Dragon after the Gate wears off. Dragon then tells Solar to gate in more Solars. Repeat ad nauseum. Wizard does the same thing. Tainted armies of heaven march into battle, skies rain blood, etcetera. Not what I'd call an entertaining fight, even if it makes for a nice visual.

Superior Invisibility is a problem, but not one that cannot be overcome. As you said, the dragon has it too. In this case, it really depends on the location of the fight. If it's in the dragon's lair, you can almost guarantee that the dragon will find the party first. Either the party will trip a trap, or they'll disarm one - either way, the dragon sees that one of his traps is gone and chucks a Disjunction. No more invisibility.


Heh, the dragon needs a life time to take out a Wizard. If the Wizard wants to, he will not die against the dragon. Contingencies, defenses and divinations are there to help. And, of course, three other meatbags standing by his side. Figuratively speaking.

The dragon has them too. All of the contingencies, all of the magic defenses, all of the items. A Great Wyrm Brass Dragon is a 19th level sorcerer plus melee. It just saddens me that this fight, like all others, must inevitably degenerate into a caster war...


In short, Wizard uses his 8th level slots to Superior Invisibility (something he might or might not be able to cast as an immediate action, thanks Proteus!) and makes all senses apart from touch totally useless. Then the dragon is up against four creatures it cannot perceive without True seeing and thus unable to break the status quo.




Simply, I don't believe the dragon ever gets a chance to get close to the party members unless they want to. You can even have the Wizard craft some Superior Invisibilities as contingent spells.

We're going with Core + SpC, aren't we? So no Craft Contingent Spells. Or the dragon gets it too. :smallamused:

mostlyharmful
2009-11-29, 05:27 PM
Wait, do we have a specific color decided on already? I thought it was any CR 25 great wyrm. I've been assuming metallic, not chromatic. :smallamused:

I thought it was limited to no more than CR24?

Eurus
2009-11-29, 05:29 PM
I thought it was limited to no more than CR24?

I don't remember, to be honest. I saw at the beginning that CR 25 was mentioned, but so was CR 24... It doesn't really matter, though. A Great Wyrm Brass Dragon is only CR 23, and still has 19th level casting.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 05:29 PM
Wait, do we have a specific color decided on already? I thought it was any CR 25 great wyrm. I've been assuming metallic, not chromatic. :smallamused:

Also, I actually wouldn't half mind running the dragon (with some help and advice, of course). And I'm not insisting that the dragon would win - I've admitted that it's in no way foolproof, and a party of four optimized characters stands a good chance (unless they happen to be four optimized spellcasters, in which case I'm frankly not liking the dragon's chances at all). I'm just insistent that a dragon is not as weak of a combatant as it's made out to be.

I do have the dragon type decided and fully constructed.

I have not yet revealed that to the players, nor will I, short of accurate and available divination that reveals such information.

Myself and the mediator will work on a hook and intro method, and leave the party to go from there.

The area that the dragon will likely be in will be near Mountains, swamps, the ocean, desert, and limited access to tundra (all within a 1 day's flight by dragon). I am also aiming for within 1 day's flight of two humanoid settlements of some sort (to provide for non-hostile environments that basic supplies may be obtained). Which of those terrains will be used shall be revealed by plot hook and divination.

Volkov
2009-11-29, 05:30 PM
Meh, I don't use dragons without sorcerer levels, or psion levels for gem dragons.

Tshern
2009-11-29, 05:34 PM
Oh no, you misunderstand. Dragon gates Solar. Dragon mindrapes Solar into obedience, perhaps by convincing it that the dragon is in fact the god that the Solar worships. Dragon tells Solar to Plane Shift back to the Dragon after the Gate wears off. Dragon then tells Solar to gate in more Solars. Repeat ad nauseum. Wizard does the same thing. Tainted armies of heaven march into battle, skies rain blood, etcetera. Not what I'd call an entertaining fight, even if it makes for a nice visual.
I think I would that call a really entertaining fight. The DM would have his handful of dice to say the least.


Superior Invisibility is a problem, but not one that cannot be overcome. As you said, the dragon has it too. In this case, it really depends on the location of the fight. If it's in the dragon's lair, you can almost guarantee that the dragon will find the party first. Either the party will trip a trap, or they'll disarm one - either way, the dragon sees that one of his traps is gone and chucks a Disjunction. No more invisibility.
If it is in the lair, the Wizard has a decent chance at this even if he's alone. I am guessing the Wizard has higher initiative (due to dexterity, that is likely to be higher without any buffs) and when that is clear, the Wizard tosses a a Time stop, Dimensional lock, moves out and some delayed Earthquakes. Or any variation of the tactics. Just leave and collapse the place on the dragon.


The dragon has them too. All of the contingencies, all of the magic defenses, all of the items. A Great Wyrm Brass Dragon is a 19th level sorcerer plus melee. It just saddens me that this fight, like all others, must inevitably degenerate into a caster war...
Yes, the same things, but not times four, which is the case with the party. I am not saying it's going to be easy for the party, but the dragon just won't outmaneuver them all. Agreed on the caster war part though.


We're going with Core + SpC, aren't we? So no Craft Contingent Spells. Or the dragon gets it too. :smallamused:
An accurate point, I got a bit carried away there.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 05:40 PM
I do love when the PC's debate tactics in front of me.

I've not seen anything that worries me yet though. Nothing that would cause me to adjust my build selections in any way.

But just sayin'. :p

Oslecamo
2009-11-29, 05:43 PM
Incidentally, the dragon does not get longer to spend mindraping outsiders. The caster can be as old as him, and all casters at level 20 get more 9th level spells than the dragon.

It only casts as sorcerer level 17, remember?

If we're mindraping outsiders by now, you really don't need 9th level spells. Planar biding and friends are 8th level or lower. Bring efreetis. Unleash the madness.

So the fact that it's a party vs a dragon it's kinda becoming irrelevant. This is becoming tippyverse vs tippyverse.

Eurus
2009-11-29, 05:43 PM
I think I would that call a really entertaining fight. The DM would have his handful of dice to say the least.

Meh. After the first hundred thousand Solars march to their deaths, I imagine it would get dull. But, to each his own. :smallwink:


If it is in the lair, the Wizard has a decent chance at this even if he's alone. I am guessing the Wizard has higher initiative (due to dexterity, that is likely to be higher without any buffs) and when that is clear, the Wizard tosses a a Time stop, Dimensional lock, moves out and some delayed Earthquakes. Or any variation of the tactics. Just leave and collapse the place on the dragon.

Lair does not necessarily equal cave. :smalltongue: And I would be ashamed of the dragon who did live in a cave, and chose not to sufficiently protect that cave from collapses and earthquakes. You can be almost certain that a simple cave-in isn't going to actually kill a dragon, though. Inconvenience it, perhaps...


Yes, the same things, but not times four, which is the case with the party. I am not saying it's going to be easy for the party, but the dragon just won't outmaneuver them all. Agreed on the caster war part though.

This is true, the dragon is disadvantaged in terms of the sheer amount of resources that the party can bring against it. Four times the actions, four times the spells, etc. And a dragon's hoard is nice, but the combined WBL of four 20th level characters is just crazy. I still think that the dragon has a chance, though, if it can get the jump on the party.


EDIT:

If we're mindraping outsiders by now, you really don't need 9th level spells. Planar biding and friends are 8th level or lower.

So the fact that it's a party vs a dragon it's kinda becoming irrelevant. This is becoming tippyverse vs tippyverse.

Hence the ban, because any situation in which Gate-spam is an acceptable tactic quickly reduces all fights to nothing but Gate-spam.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 05:46 PM
Just so we're clear, polymorphing one's self into a dragon is frowned upon, correct?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 05:50 PM
I do love when the PC's debate tactics in front of me.


The actual tactic will be much different. This is just to throw you off.

Eurus
2009-11-29, 05:52 PM
Just so we're clear, polymorphing one's self into a dragon is frowned upon, correct?

How? Doesn't Polymorph cap at 15 HD? Or do you mean Shapechanging into a dragon (max 25 HD)? Or Polymorph Any Object, I suppose. Either way, that's just one more buff to be dispelled.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 05:54 PM
If you do choose to change shape into another dragon, following polymorph HD regs, shapechange HD regs, or similar spells, it's cool.

And I hope so. These tactics all seem fairly... Standard fare. Some are blatantly overpowered, but the only original tactic was the cave collapse, and that one's not particularly worrisome.

Tshern
2009-11-29, 05:54 PM
Meh. After the first hundred thousand Solars march to their deaths, I imagine it would get dull. But, to each his own. :smallwink:
Well, frankly, I have experience about stupid numbers, ridiculous levels and excessive divine ranks. Kind of a responsibility I accepted after a retirement of sorts. A silly challenge, but entertaining.


Lair does not necessarily equal cave. :smalltongue: And I would be ashamed of the dragon who did live in a cave, and chose not to sufficiently protect that cave from collapses and earthquakes. You can be almost certain that a simple cave-in isn't going to actually kill a dragon, though. Inconvenience it, perhaps...
Hmmm... Reaching (Archmage, I look at you!) a Quickened Dimensional anchor is a good start though. Everything depends, of course, on the level of buffing. With buffs, Fleshriver becomes pretty ridiculous.


This is true, the dragon is disadvantaged in terms of the sheer amount of resources that the party can bring against it. Four times the actions, four times the spells, etc. And a dragon's hoard is nice, but the combined WBL of four 20th level characters is just crazy. I still think that the dragon has a chance, though, if it can get the jump on the party.
A chance, yes.

Volkov
2009-11-29, 05:54 PM
Assuming the dragon is good, it won't be sending any undead at you. But it can animate it's breath, and summon a celestial colossal scorpion at you. As well as animal friends. While this won't hurt the party that much, it will slow them down, allowing it to bring in it's followers and cohorts while taking pot-shots with it's magic.

If it is not good. The Dragon can simply toss undead at you while summoning many fiends and fiendish creatures, while throwing it's followers, minions, lackeys, cohorts, mind controlled servants and it's obligatory small army of kobolds. Depending on the dragon, it will either sit back and wait for it's minions to do their job, or it can join the fray.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-29, 06:02 PM
and the team can send their minions and the dragon can get better ones and then we're back to gated uberminions and escalating chains of ridonkulous until it loses meaning. This is about Dragon versus four twentieths.

Volkov
2009-11-29, 06:05 PM
and the team can send their minions and the dragon can get better ones and then we're back to gated uberminions and escalating chains of ridonkulous until it loses meaning. This is about Dragon versus four twentieths.

No evil dragon is complete without an tribe of kobolds that worships him/her.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 06:06 PM
and the team can send their minions and the dragon can get better ones and then we're back to gated uberminions and escalating chains of ridonkulous until it loses meaning. This is about Dragon versus four twentieths.

Difference is:

Animate Breath would be a feat that's not in the mix. Were it, however, it'd be a use of a resource (breath weapon, which can't be used while the breath is animate).

Summon Monster X is a balanced spell. Nothing wrong with it. Gate's one of those questionable spells. Minionmancy isn't the issue. Gate is.

Volkov
2009-11-29, 06:07 PM
Difference is:

Animate Breath would be a feat that's not in the mix. Were it, however, it'd be a use of a resource (breath weapon, which can't be used while the breath is animate).

Summon Monster X is a balanced spell. Nothing wrong with it. Gate's one of those questionable spells. Minionmancy isn't the issue. Gate is.

cough cough....It's a spell....cough cough..

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 06:09 PM
cough cough....It's a spell....cough cough..

Either way, I've looked at it. It's crap.

Volkov
2009-11-29, 06:10 PM
Either way, I've looked at it. It's crap.

It has it's uses, and that use is cannon fodder, which you can never have enough of.

Eurus
2009-11-29, 06:12 PM
A chance, yes.

But here's the thing; the dragon has "a chance" against a highly optimized party that's prepared to fight it. Against a normal party? They'd be lucky to survive long enough to actually see the dragon that they're fighting.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 06:16 PM
It has it's uses, and that use is cannon fodder, which you can never have enough of.

There are better ways of obtaining cannon fodder. If it can't reliably hit the party, and if it does, can't reliably hurt the party, the only thing that makes the party possibly waste enough time to kill it? If it's effectively providing flanking situations... Which isn't likely.

Otherwise, it's something that's ignored or one-shotted. There are many effective methods of getting minions. Summon Monster, hired mercs, and fanatic worshippers are three that are on par with the quasi elemental you get, if not better.


But here's the thing; the dragon has "a chance" against a highly optimized party that's prepared to fight it. Against a normal party? They'd be lucky to survive long enough to actually see the dragon that they're fighting.

It's bad form for a dragon to not reveal itself for part of the fight. I mean really, where's your sense of theatrics?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 06:18 PM
But here's the thing; the dragon has "a chance" against a highly optimized party that's prepared to fight it. Against a normal party? They'd be lucky to survive long enough to actually see the dragon that they're fighting.

But that's not a normal dragon, is it?

Superglucose
2009-11-29, 06:21 PM
Has this started yet?

Volkov
2009-11-29, 06:22 PM
There are better ways of obtaining cannon fodder. If it can't reliably hit the party, and if it does, can't reliably hurt the party, the only thing that makes the party possibly waste enough time to kill it? If it's effectively providing flanking situations... Which isn't likely.

Otherwise, it's something that's ignored or one-shotted. There are many effective methods of getting minions. Summon Monster, hired mercs, and fanatic worshippers are three that are on par with the quasi elemental you get, if not better.




It's bad form for a dragon to not reveal itself for part of the fight. I mean really, where's your sense of theatrics?

When all of them are combined, you get awesomeness.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 06:22 PM
No. So far there's only a wizard and a sorcerer. We need two more. I personally want a Cleric and Druid.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 06:23 PM
No. So far there's only a wizard and a sorcerer. We need two more. I personally want a Cleric and Druid.

There was a druid submitted, I thought, and a ranger.


But that's not a normal dragon, is it?

It's well-built, and well-designed. But it's also true to what I feel dragons should be.

Eurus
2009-11-29, 06:27 PM
It's bad form for a dragon to not reveal itself for part of the fight. I mean really, where's your sense of theatrics?

True enough. It would probably reveal itself at the end, as it slowly crushes the life out of the hapless rogue. :smallcool:


But that's not a normal dragon, is it?

Good point. But I am of the opinion that a "normal" dragon can probably take down a "normal" party with relative ease.

Superglucose
2009-11-29, 06:31 PM
No. So far there's only a wizard and a sorcerer. We need two more. I personally want a Cleric and Druid.
If you'll have me I'll finish this cleric I'm working on. I promise I'm much better in a party setting XD

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 06:32 PM
True enough. It would probably reveal itself at the end, as it slowly crushes the life out of the hapless rogue. :smallcool:
That's the idea. Generally, I like the reveal to be shortly after the party realizes that they're in over their head. When they're pressed on all sides, and don't know what to do. Then, they can engage the dragon, and have all the things they WERE holding off finish them... Or they can hold off the tertiary threats, while the dragon picks them apart.

In other words, at that point, it takes creative thinking to win.


Good point. But I am of the opinion that a "normal" dragon can probably take down a "normal" party with relative ease.
I don't know. A standard or light optimized party will still have tools at their disposal that can get a "V" versus a dragon.

WorldWalker
2009-11-29, 06:39 PM
{Scrubbed}

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 06:54 PM
{Scrubbed}

Sure. Provide me with a 4th PC, allow the 3rd to finish his character, give me some input from our Mediator/DM, who's been MIA for the last couple days, and we're good to go.

Until then, we'll discuss and socialize, if that's alright with you.

Volkov
2009-11-29, 06:59 PM
{Scrubbed}

{scrubbed}

WorldWalker
2009-11-29, 06:59 PM
Sure. Provide me with a 4th PC, allow the 3rd to finish his character, give me some input from our Mediator/DM, who's been MIA for the last couple days, and we're good to go.

Until then, we'll discuss and socialize, if that's alright with you.

*grins* And there's your sarcasm yet again.

You two...just...bah, it's not even worth it.

Goodluck.

WorldWalker
2009-11-29, 07:01 PM
{Scrubbed}

Volkov
2009-11-29, 07:05 PM
{Scrubbed}

One cannot expect the most efficient route to be taken first. People are well known to do the exact opposite of what would be efficient.

WorldWalker
2009-11-29, 07:07 PM
One cannot expect the most efficient route to be taken first. People are well known to do the exact opposite of what would be efficient.

I concur.

It is the way of humanity, actually. You sir, are a good deal smarter than your prior post had led me to believe.

I now bow out gracefully and watch with anticipation and a great deal of misplaced impatience.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 07:08 PM
{Scrubbed}

I'm just letting you know that steps are still needed to finish it. I can only assume you were posting because you have interest in the encounter. The steps remaining are as I posted. 1 PC needs completion, we need one more volunteer PC, Raven needs to touch base with the party and myself, letting us know which of our tactics and preparations are fine, and approve all characters, and then a thread can be created.

As I prefer solution-oriented people, I fully encourage you to civilly add yourself to the PC list, and lessen those issues by one. Regardless of the above, complaining over mistakes of the past is crying over spilled milk. Whether or not the past issues were efficiently handled, complaining about past issues is nothing more than a guarantee that present issues won't be.

If you're not interested in the results, then I can only assume you're heckling for no purpose, rather than heckling out of genuine interest. Please let me know if that's the case, so I can block you.

Arrogancy
2009-11-29, 07:09 PM
Please forgive me if this has already been covered, but what exactly are the conditions of the beginning of the fight? In particular:

1. Is the dragon aware the PCs are coming to get it? Does it know when? What buffs does it have time to cast? How short can their duration be?
2. Do the PCs have advance time to cast their own short-duration buffs?
3. What distance do the two parties start from each other? What shape is the arena?

The last one is a bigger deal than you might think. If everyone begins within 120ft (true seeing range) of each other, then, for example, initiative becomes a much bigger deal, and the fight is going to involve much less feint and misdirection. Alternatively, if everyone begins 300ft away (and invisible) then a great deal of time will be spent just figuring out where the other party is.

As an aside: I feel the addition of the SpC really helps the dragon quite a lot more than the PCs. The breath weapon spells are really beasts.

Volkov
2009-11-29, 07:12 PM
Is the dragon going to start chucking fire balls in an nigh impossible to dodge pattern while the players attempt to reach his chamber through a long Corridor like Bowser does when you are trying to reach him?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 07:12 PM
Please forgive me if this has already been covered, but what exactly are the conditions of the beginning of the fight? In particular:

1. Is the dragon aware the PCs are coming to get it? Does it know when? What buffs does it have time to cast? How short can their duration be?
2. Do the PCs have advance time to cast their own short-duration buffs?
3. What distance do the two parties start from each other? What shape is the arena?

The last one is a bigger deal than you might think. If everyone begins within 120ft (true seeing range) of each other, then, for example, initiative becomes a much bigger deal, and the fight is going to involve much less feint and misdirection. Alternatively, if everyone begins 300ft away (and invisible) then a great deal of time will be spent just figuring out where the other party is.

As an aside: I feel the addition of the SpC really helps the dragon quite a lot more than the PCs. The breath weapon spells are really beasts.

I've built and statted an entire lair. I've made allowances for surrounding environment to the lair. I do intend for it to be more than an "arena" style. Simply put, Raven's original vision for this was to simulate an actual D&D dragon encounter in a mini-adventure as best as possible. I'm doing what I can to assist in that.

WorldWalker
2009-11-29, 07:12 PM
I'm just letting you know that steps are still needed to finish it. I can only assume you were posting because you have interest in the encounter. The steps remaining are as I posted. 1 PC needs completion, we need one more volunteer PC, Raven needs to touch base with the party and myself, letting us know which of our tactics and preparations are fine, and approve all characters, and then a thread can be created.

As I prefer solution-oriented people, I fully encourage you to civilly add yourself to the PC list, and lessen those issues by one. Regardless of the above, complaining over mistakes of the past is crying over spilled milk. Whether or not the past issues were efficiently handled, complaining about past issues is nothing more than a guarantee that present issues won't be.

If you're not interested in the results, then I can only assume you're heckling for no purpose, rather than heckling out of genuine interest. Please let me know if that's the case, so I can block you.

*laughs* A modicum of civility. I do so like this thread. Fantastic. And I assure you I am most interested in the results. Forgive my misplaced and badly timed commentary on the events. However, I do so wish the beginning of the thread could of been conducted with more mutual respect instead of belitteling (spelling?) comments. It would serve only to see new visitors driven away.

I, however, work full time, and study Naturopathy and Management Administration, both, in my spare time. Thus, I must respectfully refuse to acquiest your request, and do admit to being very interested when the result finally comes around. My best wishes to you both.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 07:16 PM
No, it doesn't need to be so. First off, if the dragon uses the AMF tactics and shoots cripples itself, there is no Gate from the dragon. Secondly, the dragon has four characters to chase, so at worst there would be a single caster to bombarding the dragon, I am assuming ranged attacks from bows would be pretty ineffective in this situation. This assumes the dragon ever even finds out where the people are, which is easily avoided with Superior Invisibility. While the dragon can do the same thing, that would still not mean the party loses, because the status quo would remain in place.


Why would ranged attacks fail? Dragon loses DR in a Antimagic field.
And ranged attacks are made to kill flying creatures.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-29, 07:26 PM
How in the world do you figure that the dragon loses DR in an amf?

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 07:30 PM
How in the world do you figure that the dragon loses DR in an amf?

The rules.
Dragons have DR/ magic which is not Extraordinary or DR/ Epic which is also not extraordinary.
Supernatural abilities like DR's are lost in AMF.

Volkov
2009-11-29, 07:34 PM
The rules.
Dragons have DR/ magic which is not Extraordinary or DR/ Epic which is also not extraordinary.
Supernatural abilities like DR's are lost in AMF.

I'd assume DR/Epic would trump the AMF just for being epic. :P

arguskos
2009-11-29, 07:34 PM
The rules.
Dragons have DR/ magic which is not Extraordinary or DR/ Epic which is also not extraordinary.
Supernatural abilities like DR's are lost in AMF.
To be more detailed, pg 22 of the Draconomicon states in no uncertain terms that DR is supernatural, and is suppressed in an AMF.

Volkov
2009-11-29, 07:44 PM
To be more detailed, pg 22 of the Draconomicon states in no uncertain terms that DR is supernatural, and is suppressed in an AMF.

The draconomicon is not being used in this.

arguskos
2009-11-29, 07:53 PM
The draconomicon is not being used in this.
That's the only technical reference I could find to it. Perhaps there's one in the Rules Compendium as well (ah, yes, there is, pg 41, DR x/magic is considered supernatural).

There, another source. Use whichever, I just wanted to clarify. I could not find a clarification in Core, so if you're only using Core and being ***** about it, then there's no reason AMF should prevent DR.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 08:22 PM
*laughs* A modicum of civility. I do so like this thread. Fantastic. And I assure you I am most interested in the results. Forgive my misplaced and badly timed commentary on the events. However, I do so wish the beginning of the thread could of been conducted with more mutual respect instead of belitteling (spelling?) comments. It would serve only to see new visitors driven away.

I, however, work full time, and study Naturopathy and Management Administration, both, in my spare time. Thus, I must respectfully refuse to acquiest your request, and do admit to being very interested when the result finally comes around. My best wishes to you both.

Well, I certainly find it odd that your principal complaint is belittling and demeaning commentary in the thread, when your opening post was spent with gems such as insulting other posters, criticism for people discussing disagreements, and drawing correlation between other posters and schoolgirls.

Don't you see a little reason why people might respond in a less than warm manner? Don't you see a basis for disregarding comments criticizing rudeness by one who addresses us in a rude manner?

There has been progress. The basic nature of the encounter has been laid out. The primary opposition (dragon) is created. The party has two applicants ready for approval and one in the design process, with one slot open.

If everyone else isn't moving at the pace you like, and yet, you're unwilling to throw in a hand yourself... I just don't know what to tell you. It'll be done when people who DO have the time and inclination are finished.

However, I tend to not lend the same weight to criticism on the thread's organization by someone unwilling to present a better method, and unwilling to invest anything other than negativity. There's no solution to the issues you've presented. The status of the challenge is known. It's organized, at this step, in that we know exactly where we're at.

While I can certainly sympathize with your frustration over missteps that took place 8 pages and 3 days ago, might I suggest directing your criticism to more productive sources? Such as suggestions for how to streamline the process now?

Anything else is just complaining. And if I'm going to take anything from your previous posts seriously...

That's just not a productive use of my time.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-29, 10:42 PM
Given that it's Core + SpC, I don't suppose I could pull out my XPH and CPsi (since that's really the only official psi source other than The Mind's Eye)?

I'd love to make a psion bruiser for this...

Extra plusses if I could use this PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b). :smallsmile:

But alas, none of those sources are allowable.

Fie!

Superglucose
2009-11-29, 10:53 PM
Whelp, if you'll have him, Lord Kagrenac (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=149954) is always willing to finish off the dragons, as blasphemous as it may be.

tyckspoon
2009-11-29, 11:06 PM
Why would ranged attacks fail? Dragon loses DR in a Antimagic field.
And ranged attacks are made to kill flying creatures.

The source of damage on ranged attacks is almost universally well-chosen enhancements. Shooting into an AMF nulls those. The weakest variety of Great Wyrm (the White, to the best of my knowledge) has a non-magical AC of 41 and 522 HP. Can you hit that reliably with a non-magical weapon? Can you do meaningful damage to that pool with a non-magical weapon? If the answer to either one is no, the dragon doesn't care that it drops DR by putting up an AMF. Especially since it was only DR/magic, which you were going to be ignoring anyway.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 11:32 PM
The source of damage on ranged attacks is almost universally well-chosen enhancements. Shooting into an AMF nulls those. The weakest variety of Great Wyrm (the White, to the best of my knowledge) has a non-magical AC of 41 and 522 HP. Can you hit that reliably with a non-magical weapon? Can you do meaningful damage to that pool with a non-magical weapon? If the answer to either one is no, the dragon doesn't care that it drops DR by putting up an AMF. Especially since it was only DR/magic, which you were going to be ignoring anyway.

+1. DR/Magic is laughable, at high levels. Anyone that's trying to meaningfully insert a sharp object into the dragon can bypass it. Of all the things a dragon loses in an AMF, that's the least worrisome.

EDIT: As much as I love the Psionics rules, by Raven's guidelines, they're not allowed. Sorry.

EDIT2: Lord Kagrenac brings us to 3 entries awaiting approval, and 1 in construction. That means that, with the completion of the cleric, we're just waiting on Raven. If he hasn't shown up within a reasonable amount of time, I may take that over until he arrives.

WorldWalker
2009-11-29, 11:40 PM
Well, I certainly find it odd that your principal complaint is belittling and demeaning commentary in the thread, when your opening post was spent with gems such as insulting other posters, criticism for people discussing disagreements, and drawing correlation between other posters and schoolgirls.

Don't you see a little reason why people might respond in a less than warm manner? Don't you see a basis for disregarding comments criticizing rudeness by one who addresses us in a rude manner?

There has been progress. The basic nature of the encounter has been laid out. The primary opposition (dragon) is created. The party has two applicants ready for approval and one in the design process, with one slot open.

If everyone else isn't moving at the pace you like, and yet, you're unwilling to throw in a hand yourself... I just don't know what to tell you. It'll be done when people who DO have the time and inclination are finished.

However, I tend to not lend the same weight to criticism on the thread's organization by someone unwilling to present a better method, and unwilling to invest anything other than negativity. There's no solution to the issues you've presented. The status of the challenge is known. It's organized, at this step, in that we know exactly where we're at.

While I can certainly sympathize with your frustration over missteps that took place 8 pages and 3 days ago, might I suggest directing your criticism to more productive sources? Such as suggestions for how to streamline the process now?

Anything else is just complaining. And if I'm going to take anything from your previous posts seriously...

That's just not a productive use of my time.

*chuckle*

Obviously you don't understand when someone politely withdraws their arguments, which I believe I did in the nicest way possible. Then I believe I even went so far as to apologise for my impatience. But I see now that you are one of those lonely souls who gets their jollies from starting fun little arguments on the internet. And with that, I withdraw my presence from this thread. Enjoy your battle good sir.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 11:58 PM
*chuckle*

Obviously you don't understand when someone politely withdraws their arguments, which I believe I did in the nicest way possible. Then I believe I even went so far as to apologise for my impatience. But I see now that you are one of those lonely souls who gets their jollies from starting fun little arguments on the internet. And with that, I withdraw my presence from this thread. Enjoy your battle good sir.

I believe I stated interest in doing the opposite, and am the primary coordinator (until Raven returns) for the thread. As such, I find it a bit questionable when someone who puts forth no effort sees fit to criticize the methods by which it was handled 2 days ago as a means to ridicule how it's being handled now.

Both of these points were alluded to in the message I responded to previously, and I saw fit to address them both.

Have a good one.

WorldWalker
2009-11-30, 12:03 AM
I believe I stated interest in doing the opposite, and am the primary coordinator (until Raven returns) for the thread. As such, I find it a bit questionable when someone who puts forth no effort sees fit to criticize the methods by which it was handled 2 days ago as a means to ridicule how it's being handled now.

Both of these points were alluded to in the message I responded to previously, and I saw fit to address them both.

Have a good one.

Actually. If you would re-read my posts. You wouldn't find a single iota of criticism about how matters were being handled. What you would find is three comments on how disrespectful you both were towards each other at the start of the thread.

But hey....I guess that would be overlooked in favour of starting yet another argument, no? *winks*

Worry not, you shall not see another post from me on this board.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-30, 12:07 AM
Actually. If you would re-read my posts. You wouldn't find a single iota of criticism about how matters were being handled. What you would find is three comments on how disrespectful you both were towards each other at the start of the thread.

But hey....I guess that would be overlooked in favour of starting yet another argument, no? *winks*

Worry not, you shall not see another post from me on this board.

Thank goodness.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-30, 12:13 AM
Actually. If you would re-read my posts. You wouldn't find a single iota of criticism about how matters were being handled. What you would find is three comments on how disrespectful you both were towards each other at the start of the thread.


To counter your argument, I call upon the WorldWalker of one page ago.



This thread has been open for some time has it not? Don't act like it's been the past twenty seconds. If they didn't spend the first 30 posts squabbling like children, maybe something would of gotten done?

sofawall
2009-11-30, 12:14 AM
Thank goodness.

Amen to that.

WorldWalker
2009-11-30, 12:27 AM
{Scrubbed}

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-30, 12:35 AM
Say, does PR's dragon have the spell Scintillating Scales?