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View Full Version : 1d2 Crusader Improvement Idea!



Samuel Sturm
2009-11-25, 11:29 PM
Take the 1d2 crusader.
Instead of using a 1d2 weapon, which doesn't really work if the rules are read "right", use a 1d1 weapon.

A blowgun from complete warrior has a 1d3 damage die. But, make it tiny, and it deals 1d1 damage. Now, the die itself will roll maximum damage every time. Therefore, Infinite damage!

Does it work? Or am I just dreaming?

term1nally s1ck
2009-11-25, 11:30 PM
Unfortunately, the rules drop it to just '1' damage, not 1d1, so no die is rolled....sorry.

erikun
2009-11-25, 11:31 PM
Shrinking a 1d2 weapon reduces it to 1 damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize), not 1d1. No infinite damage from that route, as you're not even rolling anymore.

ex cathedra
2009-11-25, 11:31 PM
Indeed, this is clearly stated on the weapon damage sizing charts. Nice try, though.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-25, 11:47 PM
How does the 1d2 not work? Are you referring to the fact that you don't actually roll a 2? Because "treat the result as a 2" is rolling a 2.

erikun
2009-11-25, 11:50 PM
How does the 1d2 not work? Are you referring to the fact that you don't actually roll a 2? Because "treat the result as a 2" is rolling a 2.
It works by combining a "reroll 1's" ability with a "if you roll max damage on a die, roll again and add together." Because you always reroll 1's and always add another die when rolling 2's, any successful attack roll deals infinite damage.

Blade 7 was trying to bypass the "reroll 1's" requirement, as a 1d1 die will always roll maximum damage on a die.

Samuel Sturm
2009-11-25, 11:55 PM
Aha well. <le sigh...>

Riffington
2009-11-26, 12:42 AM
Rolling an infinite number of dice is a bad idea, btw... tends to slow down gameplay.

mikeejimbo
2009-11-26, 12:50 AM
Ask your DM to let you take average, I guess?

Gralamin
2009-11-26, 12:58 AM
Rolling an infinite number of dice is a bad idea, btw... tends to slow down gameplay.

I don't know. If I roll 1,000,000 dice per a second with a computer, having it use BigNums and text files as storage locations, we might finish rolling in never.

sofawall
2009-11-26, 01:00 AM
Ask your DM to let you take average, I guess?

This comment makes me chuckle.

Vorpal Soda
2009-11-26, 07:25 AM
I'm trying to imagine how a character doing decent damage with a greatsword could start turning people into purée with a single blow from a tiny dagger.

It's an odd mental image.

Sliver
2009-11-26, 07:39 AM
Wouldn't having a large penalty to damage (say damage roll is 1d4-3) will result in always getting your max of 1 damage?

kamikasei
2009-11-26, 07:40 AM
Wouldn't having a large penalty to damage (say damage roll is 1d4-3) will result in always getting your max of 1 damage?

But you wouldn't be rolling your maximum on the die.

Killer Angel
2009-11-26, 08:25 AM
Blade 7 was trying to bypass the "reroll 1's" requirement, as a 1d1 die will always roll maximum damage on a die.

So, instead of having an infinite damage loop, we have an infinite damage loop, but with a slightly minor effort (if only the weapon size chart allowed it)? :smallamused:

RebelRogue
2009-11-26, 08:27 AM
If a player ever actually came to a game of mine with a d2 crusader, I'd ask him to roll that d2 until he was satisfied with the result. Every. Damn. Time.

Sliver
2009-11-26, 08:35 AM
If a player ever actually came to a game of mine with a d2 crusader, I'd ask him to roll that d2 until he was satisfied with the result. Every. Damn. Time.

You would ask him to roll handfulls of coins? Some players won't care to do so, especially since they didn't care about actually making it in the first place, so you will only slow down the game and piss off other players that you allowed it and ruled in such a matter to hurt the game.

Vorpal Soda
2009-11-26, 08:35 AM
If a player ever actually came to a game of mine with a d2 crusader, I'd ask him to roll that d2 until he was satisfied with the result. Every. Damn. Time.

Do the rules actually allow you to stop rolling?

Green Bean
2009-11-26, 08:37 AM
You would ask him to roll handfulls of coins? Some players won't care to do so, especially since they didn't care about actually making it in the first place, so you will only slow down the game and piss off other players that you allowed it and ruled in such a matter to hurt the game.

The DM will hurt the game? As opposed to the guy who brought an infinite damage build to the table? :smallamused:

Sliver
2009-11-26, 08:43 AM
The DM will hurt the game? As opposed to the guy who brought an infinite damage build to the table? :smallamused:

If the guy brought the character and the DM approved with this ruling then yes, as the DM is responsible for what he allows in his game and the ruling he makes, and as such, is responsible for the delay caused by such actions and the annoyance it caused at the table.

RebelRogue
2009-11-26, 08:59 AM
You would ask him to roll handfulls of coins? Some players won't care to do so, especially since they didn't care about actually making it in the first place, so you will only slow down the game and piss off other players that you allowed it and ruled in such a matter to hurt the game.
He would of course have to roll one die (or flip a coin) at a time. After all, you don't know in advance whether it will be a max or not :smallbiggrin:

In all seriousness: no, I would of course not allow it as a DM. But if it somehow slipped past me, I'd surely make a player do all that rolling untill his co-players got pissed at him!

Samuel Sturm
2009-11-26, 09:03 AM
Theoretical optimization is never something you want to actually bring to the table. :smalleek:
Pun-Pun, Chuck E. Cheese, and Superboy will ruin a game very quickly, and may cost you some friends while you're at it. But it is fun to mess with the system, and get a good laugh at WOTC every now and then.:smalltongue:

kamikasei
2009-11-26, 09:05 AM
Superboy

Haven't heard of this one, and it's not amenable to Googling - what is it, may I ask?

Wings of Peace
2009-11-26, 09:08 AM
If the guy brought the character and the DM approved with this ruling then yes, as the DM is responsible for what he allows in his game and the ruling he makes, and as such, is responsible for the delay caused by such actions and the annoyance it caused at the table.

To be fair in the instance of a player bringing an infinite damage Crusader I am fairly certain the initial question asked will not usually be "Can I bring my infinite damage Crusader" but rather "I made a Crusader from Tome of Battle is that cool?"

Samuel Sturm
2009-11-26, 09:11 AM
Haven't heard of this one, and it's not amenable to Googling - what is it, may I ask?

Superboy is what the WOTC CO boards called the 1d2 crusader build.

ex cathedra
2009-11-26, 09:11 AM
Theoretical optimization is never something you want to actually bring to the table. :smalleek:
Pun-Pun, Chuck E. Cheese, and Superboy will ruin a game very quickly, and may cost you some friends while you're at it. But it is fun to mess with the system, and get a good laugh at WOTC every now and then.:smalltongue:

Chuck, actually, isn't that dangerous in normal play. If memory serves, he doesn't come together until near epic levels.

Emmerask
2009-11-26, 09:14 AM
If the guy brought the character and the DM approved with this ruling then yes, as the DM is responsible for what he allows in his game and the ruling he makes, and as such, is responsible for the delay caused by such actions and the annoyance it caused at the table.

Because EVERY dm can instantly calculate EVERY implication with EVERY build :smallconfused:
Of course the player that brought the class to the table is responsible not the dm...

Sliver
2009-11-26, 09:16 AM
To be fair in the instance of a player bringing an infinite damage Crusader I am fairly certain the initial question asked will not usually be "Can I bring my infinite damage Crusader" but rather "I made a Crusader from Tome of Battle is that cool?"

And even if you don't check the sheet or miss the trick, as soon as tries to blow up monsters with a fork you say that this is not TO here. Not tell him "alright, flip a coin. Another one.. Again.." Until everybody else are pissed. If someone brings up TO characters to the game, most chances he won't care if everybody gets pissed at him. You should have other things more important then proving the player "his" character has no place here, like, running a game for the rest of the players.

kamikasei
2009-11-26, 09:18 AM
Superboy is what the WOTC CO boards called the 1d2 crusader build.

Ah, I see. Don't remember ever seeing the reference.

Boci
2009-11-26, 09:25 AM
Because EVERY dm can instantly calculate EVERY implication with EVERY build :smallconfused:
Of course the player that brought the class to the table is responsible not the dm...

Not really. I was rolled up a duskblade who channeled empowered vampire touch via arcane thesis. The DM told me after my first full attack that it was too powerful. He could have saved both of us a lot of time if he'd bothered to check my feats and made a logical conclusion as to which spell I was going to chanel based of that.

Ecalsneerg
2009-11-26, 09:29 AM
Because EVERY dm can instantly calculate EVERY implication with EVERY build :smallconfused:
Of course the player that brought the class to the table is responsible not the dm...

How can the DM approve a build he hasn't looked at thoroughly?

Emmerask
2009-11-26, 09:55 AM
Not really. I was rolled up a duskblade who channeled empowered vampire touch via arcane thesis. The DM told me after my first full attack that it was too powerful. He could have saved both of us a lot of time if he'd bothered to check my feats and made a logical conclusion as to which spell I was going to chanel based of that.

In that case it is fairly obvious what you wanted to do yes there the blame would be on the dms side... I was talking more about the obscure builds that rely on badly worded rules etc.

The dm looks over the char true but do you realy want him to put lots of hours maybe days into checking every implication every feat and choice might have?
Perhaps if you dm for strangers that is necessary though I would still not bother and just kick this person out of my house ;)

Alavar
2009-11-26, 09:56 AM
How can the DM approve a build he hasn't looked at thoroughly?


Because I, as a DM, have a busy life, and specifically make time for playing with my friends. Taking the relatively large amount of time to figure out what a person is going to try to do by looking at his feats, spells, etc. takes away from the time we have to play.

Even without the major time concerns it is still going to take fun playing time out, and I trust the players to bring characters that make the game fun for everyone, not just the one man army wonder that they happened to bring.

Sir_Elderberry
2009-11-26, 11:02 AM
I think everyone missed the point about the rules not allowing you to stop rolling. Therefore, by D&D rules, anyone playing a 1d2 crusader will die of thirst, exhaustion, or starvation after making their first successful attack roll.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-26, 11:25 AM
Yeah - I'd let them start the loop, then make them go off into another room and roll for the rest of the session while I ran my game.

Akal Saris
2009-11-26, 11:26 AM
I wonder if there's a way to interrupt the cycle - something like automatically using Cleave when the opponent drops to 0, then quick-drawing a 1d6 weapon for that attack.

And really, as far as infinite loops go, I think this one's pretty cute and harmless. It's a funny idea, really - the concept of some guy wielding a toothpick and completely slaughtering a titan in one shot, slowly driving it into the thing's foot as the d2's stack up, cracks me up when I think of it.

Mongoose87
2009-11-26, 11:43 AM
"Can I bring my infinite damage Crusader"

Of course the answer to this would be, "Sure, he'll have fun fighting the infinite stat kobold."

Boci
2009-11-26, 03:41 PM
I think everyone missed the point about the rules not allowing you to stop rolling. Therefore, by D&D rules, anyone playing a 1d2 crusader will die of thirst, exhaustion, or starvation after making their first successful attack roll.

Nope. Your turn doesn't end until you damage is calculated, no time passes. Its like two unarmed fighters with improved unarmed strike, epic combat reflexes, robilar's gambit and a different forms of DR each. It breaks time.

erikun
2009-11-26, 03:42 PM
Yeah - I'd let them start the loop, then make them go off into another room and roll for the rest of the session while I ran my game.
And when the game is done, inform him that the monster he hit had immunity to [damage type]. :smallwink:

sofawall
2009-11-26, 03:53 PM
Nope. Your turn doesn't end until you damage is calculated, no time passes. Its like two unarmed fighters with improved unarmed strike, epic combat reflexes, robilar's gambit and a different forms of DR each. It breaks time.

He did not say the crusader would die. He said anyone playing one would die. The real world is place where people need food, Boci.

Boci
2009-11-26, 04:06 PM
He did not say the crusader would die. He said anyone playing one would die. The real world is place where people need food, Boci.

That explains so much...

Saph
2009-11-26, 04:57 PM
So come to think of it, the 1d2 Crusader would never actually kill anything. There's no way to stop rolling damage once you've started, so the Crusader's turn would never end.

So the Crusader would attack, there's be a slight flicker, and the universe would hang. Then Mystra has to ring up Ao and get him to reboot reality.

NEO|Phyte
2009-11-26, 05:15 PM
So come to think of it, the 1d2 Crusader would never actually kill anything. There's no way to stop rolling damage once you've started, so the Crusader's turn would never end.

Sure there's a way to stop.

When one or more of your damage dice show a maximum possible result, reroll each such die and add its result to the original damage total. You can continue to reroll as long as blah blah
You can, you don't have to.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-26, 05:26 PM
You would be right if it said "may". May is permission, where can is a statement of ability. You are able to reroll indefinitely, it says. The preceding line is the important one - it says whenever you hit max damage, "reroll" - that's imperative, not "you may reroll" or something similar. You must do so.

Sir_Elderberry
2009-11-26, 05:29 PM
I suppose it's down to DM interpretation whether or not the offending player rolls dice for the rest of their short, tortuous life or not then.