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View Full Version : [3.5] Relics and UMD



Zaq
2009-11-26, 03:35 AM
So, let's keep this short and sweet. How does UMD affect Relics? I get the feeling that the "Emulate Class Feature" use of UMD would let you mimic the "Sacrifice X level divine spell" aspect of a relic, but I'm not really sure. I know that the "Emulate Alignment" function would let you use the lesser powers, but I can't quite tell if the skill can (or should) let you use the relic powers.

The example given for Emulate Class Feature in the PHB (not in the SRD) involves a character without turn undead activating an item that triggers when a turn undead charge is channeled into it. They don't have any turn attempts to use, but they can use the item anyway. I can see an argument that this is the same thing as not having any X level divine spells to use, but using the item anyway... any thoughts on that?

Keld Denar
2009-11-26, 03:53 AM
Would it be easier to emulate having the True Believer feat instead? Same results, different path.

MichielHagen
2009-11-26, 07:19 AM
Would it be easier to emulate having the True Believer feat instead? Same results, different path.

AFAIK you cannot emulate a feat with UMD.

MichielHagen
2009-11-26, 07:22 AM
The example given for Emulate Class Feature in the PHB (not in the SRD) involves a character without turn undead activating an item that triggers when a turn undead charge is channeled into it. They don't have any turn attempts to use, but they can use the item anyway.

This is a mistake in the PHB, i believe it has erratta.

AslanCross
2009-11-26, 08:13 AM
This is a mistake in the PHB, i believe it has erratta.

How is it mistaken? The rules as presented in the SRD and PHB are identical except for the lack of the turn undead example presented in the PHB. I checked the PHB errata archive and there seems to be nothing on the UMD skill. My copy of the PHB is the softcover version that came with the Player's Kit; it has some errata incorporated into it (the one I noticed immediately is that instead of calling the lance a Heavy Lance, it just says Lance [Medium] and Lance [small] for the "Light Lance").

UMD cannot emulate feats, though, as you have mentioned.

Looking at the skill's entry, though, it seems that you can only emulate having the ability as if you had the class feature. The Relic Power requires you to give up a prepared spell slot, forgoing one of your daily spells during your spell preparation period IF you are a divine spellcaster devoted to the relevant deity. As far as I can tell, UMD can emulate being a divine spellcaster of (UMD check-20)th level, but not being a caster devoted to a particular deity, nor does it emulate having spell slots to sacrifice. The choice to sacrifice a spell slot doesn't seem to be made when actually activating the power; to me it looks more like a key you have to turn before you can activate the item at all.

Zaq
2009-11-26, 12:14 PM
Looking at the skill's entry, though, it seems that you can only emulate having the ability as if you had the class feature. The Relic Power requires you to give up a prepared spell slot, forgoing one of your daily spells during your spell preparation period IF you are a divine spellcaster devoted to the relevant deity. As far as I can tell, UMD can emulate being a divine spellcaster of (UMD check-20)th level, but not being a caster devoted to a particular deity, nor does it emulate having spell slots to sacrifice. The choice to sacrifice a spell slot doesn't seem to be made when actually activating the power; to me it looks more like a key you have to turn before you can activate the item at all.

I can see where you would get that interpretation, but again, the example in the PHB involves specifically using a turn attempt even though you don't have any turn attempts to use. It's not simply enough to HAVE a turn attempt, you have to actually "channel positive energy" into the hypothetical item, but UMD lets you do it. Likewise, it's not enough to HAVE a divine spell slot of whatever level, you have to actually sacrifice it to the item... but if you're able to do that with the turn undead thing, you should be able to do it with spell slots. Anyone see anything to the contrary?

Curmudgeon
2009-11-26, 12:51 PM
The PH example is nebulous. It speaks of channeling "positive energy into it as if turning undead", but doesn't actually specify that this uses up a turn undead attempt. Would this magic chalice still work for a Cleric who'd exhausted their turn undead attempts for the day? It's frustratingly unclear.
A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player’s choice), depending on whether the cleric is more proficient at wielding positive or negative energy. You can still spontaneously convert spells to Cures when you can no longer turn undead that day, and you can still spontaneously convert spells to Inflicts when you can no longer rebuke undead that day. Would that chalice still work then?

It's an interesting discussion, and I like Zaq's take on it. There just isn't an adequate foundation for that argument to make a definitive decision.

Saph
2009-11-26, 12:58 PM
Emulation-wise, UMD allows you to:

Emulate a class feature
Emulate an ability score
Emulate a race
Emulate an alignment
However, one thing it can't emulate is worshipping a deity, and AFAIK all relics require you to worship the correct deity for them to work. So unless you happen to worship the exact same deity, trying to UMD a relic would fail at the first hurdle without getting into the "does it count as a class feature" issue.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-26, 01:10 PM
AFAIK all relics require you to worship the correct deity for them to work. So unless you happen to worship the exact same deity, trying to UMD a relic would fail
Actually, there's a Use Magic Device check that would work for that, too. A DC 40 UMD check will let you Emulate a Specific Individual for purposes of activating a device, and you can pick any individual you know about. But yeah, otherwise this will only work if you happen to worship the required deity; I assumed that went without saying, so I didn't.

Saph
2009-11-26, 03:18 PM
Actually, there's a Use Magic Device check that would work for that, too. A DC 40 UMD check will let you Emulate a Specific Individual for purposes of activating a device, and you can pick any individual you know about.

What's the source for that? That use definitely isn't in the base description of UMD in the SRD.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-26, 03:49 PM
What's the source for that? That use definitely isn't in the base description of UMD in the SRD.
Nope. It's actually in a couple of places in Dragon magazines. (You know, that thing that said "100% Official D&D® Content" on the front cover.) One instance is in an article regarding Pazuzu and his Blinding Claw throne (major artifact). You can emulate being Pazuzu with a DC 40 Use Magic Device check. See Dragon # 329, page 67. There's also a reference in an adventure in either Dragon or Dungeon, but I can't come up with that source at the moment.

Nate the Snake
2009-11-27, 01:48 AM
Actually, there's a Use Magic Device check that would work for that, too. A DC 40 UMD check will let you Emulate a Specific Individual for purposes of activating a device, and you can pick any individual you know about.

I don't think that would work. Emulate a Specific Individual lets you emulate that individual's identity for the purpose of activating a magic item that only works for certain people, but not any other traits of that individual. For example, you can emulate "Jozan" but not "cleric of Pelor."

Probably the closest you could get to emulating a religious belief is Emulate Alignment. Whether or not that would work is a DM call.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-27, 03:30 AM
For example, you can emulate "Jozan" but not "cleric of Pelor."
Is there a "Jozan" that is not a worshiper of Pelor? I'm not suggesting the check emulates "Cleric", merely that worship of Pelor seems intrinsic to "Jozan".