Query regarding Owl's Wisdom and psychotic halflings.

[Sewblon]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html I know that the joke is that Belkar was only evil all that time because he didn't know any better, but why did Vaarsuvius bother to dismiss Owl's Wisdom? And why did Belkar's shirt turn white?

[Zxo]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html I know that the joke is that Belkar was only evil all that time because he didn't know any better, but why did Vaarsuvius bother to dismiss Owl's Wisdom? And why did Belkar's shirt turn white?

V dismissed Owl's Wisdom because they were in the middle of a battle and after Elan was healed, Belkar the psychotic killer was much more useful than Belkar who never wanted to hurt a living creature again.

[Turkish Delight]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html I know that the joke is that Belkar was only evil all that time because he didn't know any better, but why did Vaarsuvius bother to dismiss Owl's Wisdom?

Joke wouldn't have worked otherwise, naturally.


And why did Belkar's shirt turn white?

Drastic changes in alignment always necessitate a costume change of some sort. In this case, it probably changes to white to show how much more pure and selfless he is. Same reason V suddenly received solid black robes with his splices and reverted instantly to red when they left.

[Turkish Delight]

A bigger question would be: if Wisdom means understanding the futility of inflicting harm on others for fun and profit, how can you have an effective evil Cleric?

In other campaign settings, I've often pondered the question of how a man can have 18 wisdom and yet devote his brief mortal existence to worshipping the God of Slugs or something.

[Sewblon]

V dismissed Owl's Wisdom because they were in the middle of a battle and after Elan was healed, Belkar the psychotic killer was much more useful than Belkar who never wanted to hurt a living creature again.

That was in a thought bubble, V didn't know that Belkar didn't want to hurt a living creature ever again.
A bigger question would be: if Wisdom means understanding the futility of inflicting harm on others for fun and profit, how can you have an effective evil Cleric?

In other campaign settings, I've often pondered the question of how a man can have 18 wisdom and yet devote his brief mortal existence to worshipping the God of Slugs or something. And how could someone with 18 wisdom not realize that world conquest never works.

[Katana_Geldar]

Hey, it does work! Just not for very long.

[Sewblon]

Hey, it does work! Just not for very long.

But the world always sucks when it does. So why would anyone want to rule over it?

[Katana_Geldar]

:xykon: I mean, I've been cruising around doing local evil here and there, but I'm not getting any younger. Time to start thinking of a legacy. And what legacy could be better than "ruled the whole damn world".

[Turkish Delight]

:xykon: I mean, I've been cruising around doing local evil here and there, but I'm not getting any younger. Time to start thinking of a legacy. And what legacy could be better than "ruled the whole damn world".

Who needs a legacy when you're immortal? And, really, given how often bids to take over the world end in the death of the one doing the planning at the hands of some upstart hero, it seems a rather needlessly risky undertaking for a Lich.

Given how much Genre Saviness is displayed by characters in this comic, you'd think someone on Team Evil would eventually reflect on how rarely villains win in these kinds of stories and make plans to not be associated with an organization called Team Evil when the whole thing starts to reach it's bitter conclusion. But Xykon's Wisdom score sucks, so he can be excused somewhat for not grasping that he's probably been completely screwed from Strip 1.

[Katana_Geldar]

When Xykon said that, he wasn't immortal.

[Yuki Akuma]

The Wisdom boost made Belkar Good because Belkar is Evil due to the fact that he lacks empathy.

Evil characters with high Wisdom are still Evil because, while they're good at recognising others' emotions, they don't care.

Okay? Okay.

[Sewblon]

Who needs a legacy when you're immortal? And, really, given how often bids to take over the world end in the death of the one doing the planning at the hands of some upstart hero, it seems a rather needlessly risky undertaking for a Lich.

Given how much Genre Saviness is displayed by characters in this comic, you'd think someone on Team Evil would eventually reflect on how rarely villains win in these kinds of stories and make plans to not be associated with an organization called Team Evil when the whole thing starts to reach it's bitter conclusion. But Xykon's Wisdom score sucks, so he can be excused somewhat for not grasping that he's probably been completely screwed from Strip 1.

Given the bonuses he gets from being in the venerable age category, and being a lich, his wisdom score should be at least 15, which isn't quite effective cleric level but it is well above average.

[Thanatosia]

Wow, I had never noticed that his shirt turned white during the owl's wisdom effect before.

[Turkish Delight]

The Wisdom boost made Belkar Good because Belkar is Evil due to the fact that he lacks empathy.

Evil characters with high Wisdom are still Evil because, while they're good at recognising others' emotions, they don't care.

Okay? Okay.

I don't know. Belkar doesn't seem to be evil because he can't recognize other people's emotions. In fact, he flagrantly gets off on seeing the abject terror of his victims.

The proper answer, I think, is 'Belkar becoming good when he got a wisdom boost was a one-off joke and has zero relevance to anything else.' Quick and easy.

[The Dark Fiddler]

The Wisdom boost made Belkar Good because Belkar is Evil due to the fact that he lacks empathy.

Evil characters with high Wisdom are still Evil because, while they're good at recognising others' emotions, they don't care.

Okay? Okay.

This. It's not that Wisdom = Good, it's that Belkar's evil is partially because of his lack* of empathy, which is related to his pitiful Wisdom score. For him, the boosted Wisdom gives him this empathy suddenly, which is a huge change, and probably enough to make him rethink everything.

*Or perhaps misapplication, or maybe not fully functioning.


When Xykon said that, he wasn't immortal.

It's generally a good idea to spoiler things from SoD, for people who haven't read it. :smallannoyed:


I don't know. Belkar doesn't seem to be evil because he can't recognize other people's emotions. In fact, he flagrantly gets off on seeing the abject terror of his victims.

That's not empathy. Empathy is when you're, to use the saying, able to put yourself in the shoes of others and feel what they're feeling.

[Turkish Delight]

That's not empathy. Empathy is when you're, to use the saying, able to put yourself in the shoes of others and feel what they're feeling.

Belkar is able to comprehend fear. He knows that the people he's stabbing are terrified, and doesn't get off on killing undead precisely because they don't become frightened or feel pain when he does it. Where's the fun in that?

In other words, he recognizes other's emotions. He just doesn't care. Which would be the exact definition that was used to explain why he's different from a high Wisdom Evil character.

Really, though, seriously reading that comic and attempting to apply the concept of wisdom enhancement producing instant saintliness as canon is silly. It's the equivalent of sitting around wondering what part of the OotS world G.I. Joe comes from.

[noiadodh]

Really, though, seriously reading that comic and attempting to apply the concept of wisdom enhancement producing instant saintliness as canon is silly. It's the equivalent of sitting around wondering what part of the OotS world G.I. Joe comes from.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html
hey, they only said that Japan doesnt exist in OotS world :smalltongue:

[derfenrirwolv]

Drastic changes in alignment always necessitate a costume change of some sort. In this case, it probably changes to white to show how much more pure and selfless he is. Same reason V suddenly received solid black robes with his splices and reverted instantly to red when they left.

And looked MUCH cooler... do all the fashion designers wind up in hell?

[73 Bits of Lint]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html I know that the joke is that Belkar was only evil all that time because he didn't know any better, but why did Vaarsuvius bother to dismiss Owl's Wisdom?
Maybe she doesn't believe in wearing white after labor day? Or she just doesn't like or trust Belkar, so she wants to minimize the magical assistance that she gives him.

As for the personality shift, even if he had a permanent wisdom boost, there is no guarantee that wise Belkar would have remained good and peaceful for any length of time. He might have fallen back into his old habits anyway, or become jaded and bitter because the world doesn't really reward pacifists. Especially pacifists who have a nasty reputation, belong to a warrior class and have few skills of use outside the battlefield.

[BatRobin]

how can you have an effective evil Cleric?

Redcloak and Jirix.


That is all.

[Kish]

Snipping out half of the sentence really does distort the meaning there.

[Zxo]

That was in a thought bubble, V didn't know that Belkar didn't want to hurt a living creature ever again.

V could figure it out from Belkar's facial expression.



And how could someone with 18 wisdom not realize that world conquest never works.

I think some ability scores are "always on" without any extra effort, like charisma or constitution, others you must decide to apply to a situation and put some effort in actually using them. 25 strength doesn't mean you'll lift every heavy object you happen to pass by, you must want to do it. I think people like RC or Xykon never bothered to think about (apply their wisdom to) some of the things they're doing, because they were motivated by something more important to thyem than "doing the wise thing".

[Kish]

V could figure it out from Belkar's facial expression.
...if Vaarsuvius had a high Wisdom (no), a Sense Motive (no), and the time or interest to look at Belkar's expression right then and try to puzzle out what it meant as the Wall of Ice melted (no and no).

[Spiky]

And how could someone with 18 wisdom not realize that world conquest never works.
Never?

Khan.
Alexander.
Catholicism.

[Sewblon]

Never?

Khan.
Alexander.
Catholicism.

There is a big difference between conquering "The Known World" and conquering "The World"

[Sewblon]

V could figure it out from Belkar's facial expression.




I think some ability scores are "always on" without any extra effort, like charisma or constitution, others you must decide to apply to a situation and put some effort in actually using them. 25 strength doesn't mean you'll lift every heavy object you happen to pass by, you must want to do it. I think people like RC or Xykon never bothered to think about (apply their wisdom to) some of the things they're doing, because they were motivated by something more important to thyem than "doing the wise thing".

Even then, having high wisdom would cause you to notice certain patterns, especially in Redcloak's case, since his wisdom is probably in the twenties and he is the one doing all the planning and working out the logistics. You would think that at some point in that process he would think "Hey, evil plans like this fail 90% of the time, and I am one of the founding members of an organization named 'Team Evil' this does not bode well for me."
It's the equivalent of sitting around wondering what part of the OotS world G.I. Joe comes from. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0145.html He went their through a trans-dimensional anomaly, now he is stuck their so he just wanders around yelling "G.I Joe!" whenever anyone says "and knowing is half the battle."

[Spiky]

There is a big difference between conquering "The Known World" and conquering "The World"

What exactly is that?

[Sewblon]

What exactly is that? Once you conquer "The Known World" external threats are very unlikely, but technically possible. Once you conquer "The World" the only threats are internal, insurgents, traitorous lieutenants and the like.

[Sir_Elderberry]

V could figure it out from Belkar's facial expression.
"The halfling's face is extraordinarily tranquil. Clearly he is currently choosing to renounce all violence and reconsidering his entire life."

I mean, really. "Conversion to pacifism" is not a facial expression.


And how could someone with 18 wisdom not realize that world conquest never works.
Never, ever underestimate the characteristic that most accompanies Evil: Raw, unbridled arrogance, possibly the most potent force on the planet.

[Red XIV]

It's generally a good idea to spoiler things from SoD, for people who haven't read it. :smallannoyed:
I think it's kind of obvious that Xykon wasn't born a lich. We've seen him from back when he was human in the main comic, after all.

[Nimrod's Son]

Drastic changes in alignment always necessitate a costume change of some sort. In this case, it probably changes to white to show how much more pure and selfless he is. Same reason V suddenly received solid black robes with his splices and reverted instantly to red when they left.
See also Miko turning beige, that most neutral of colours...

[Sir_Elderberry]

Then why did Lord Neutral live in a Grey House?

[Nimrod's Son]

Grey's not a colour. :smalltongue:

(And who the hell's "Lord Neutral", anyway?)

[Spiky]

Once you conquer "The Known World" external threats are very unlikely, but technically possible. Once you conquer "The World" the only threats are internal, insurgents, traitorous lieutenants and the like.

I think seeing this from millenia later is skewing your understanding of being a world conqueror. There is no difference between Known World and World.

[Callista]

Here, maybe. We've mapped the world. OotS, where entire nations may be completely unknown, and entire planes almost certainly are? Yeah, big difference.

Empathy/Compassion nitpick:

There's two components to what people call empathy. First one is knowing what the other person is feeling. Second one is caring about what they feel.

The "knowing what the other person is feeling" part is a combination of Charisma and Wisdom. Charisma = people skills, like diplomacy. Wisdom involves perceptiveness (sense motive), etc. You have to have both to be a decent people-reader; with low WIS you don't get the information, low CHA you can't use it.

But neither low wisdom nor low charisma would keep you from caring about what people feel. You might have no clue that someone close to you is upset, for example; but once you figured it out, you'd want to do something about it. You might have such a low charisma that you couldn't make them feel better, might actually insult them; but that would be clumsily low diplomacy checks, not evil intent.

I don't see Belkar blundering around with low diplomacy and sense motive checks; I see him deliberately causing as much pain and chaos as he can manage.

Low CHA and low WIS don't make people evil. They just end up really, really bad at social skills. Belkar, with his moderately low (for an adventurer) scores in both stats, displays this typical social clumsiness.

There's no way that this would lead to him being evil, though. Even when he knows what other people are thinking and feeling, Belkar simply doesn't care. He probably enjoys knowing that other people are suffering, actually, since he's a pretty textbook sociopath.

My conclusion, with the evidence at hand, is that this is probably just a result of an old strip where the rules took a backseat to humor. It was funny when I first read it; it's just caused a lot of debate since.

The runner-up for me, if I'm not allowed to mentally delete this particular occurrence from the canon of the strip, would be that Belkar, with a higher Wisdom, realized that his life would not be as frustrating (or as short) if he weren't constantly killing things, and deciding to retire as a still Evil but no longer active adventurer.

[Kish]

A still evil but no longer active adventurer who regretted that he hadn't spent his life healing, you mean?

[Callista]

I said it was the runner-up. My first choice is still "throwaway joke; let's pretend it didn't happen." Because there's just no way, logically, that raising your Wisdom score changes your alignment. Evil gods would have to make do with nothing but really pathetic clerics if it did.

[Sewblon]

I think seeing this from millenia later is skewing your understanding of being a world conqueror. There is no difference between Known World and World.

Isn't that the same as saying "If I don't know about it, it doesn't exist"?

[HotAndCold]

The idea is that Belkar's Evil is primarily the result of a fundamentally immature worldview: Belkar is incapable of acknowledging things like other people have the right to exist or, really, that the entire world doesn't just revolve around him. Raising his Wis to positive scores opens him up to these ideas and suddenly his entire worldview is challenged. Belkar is an evil murderer because, basically, he can't even understand how Good works, while Redcloak kills to further his Plan, and Xykon kills mostly for ****s and giggles. Belkar doesn't know, Xykon knows but doesn't care, and Redcloak knows and cares but is willing to do whatever he has to to get what he wants.

[Super_slash2]

Who needs a legacy when you're immortal? And, really, given how often bids to take over the world end in the death of the one doing the planning at the hands of some upstart hero, it seems a rather needlessly risky undertaking for a Lich.

I think you're doing it in the wrong order. It's not that people who become liches want to take over the world, I think it's more that people who want to take over the world become liches. As in, the sort-of people who would strip the humanity from their bodies also tend to be the sort-of people who would get a mad rush from the power they'd get from the conversion. That was certainly the case with Xykon, there may be exceptions but I think that would be the general case.


Isn't that the same as saying "If I don't know about it, it doesn't exist"?

No, the motive is the same. You wanted to conquer the whole world. The fact that your knowledge of what that entailed was wrong doesn't change the fact that you wanted to conquer and dominate every inch of it - it just means that you won't be done when you think you are.

[Sewblon]

it just means that you won't be done when you think you are. That was basically my point, some people believed they had conquered the world, some even when they died, but really none of them ever finished conquering the world.

[Super_slash2]

Yes but you missed the first part, where the motive and belief that you have done so is the same. Just because you didn't conquer every part of it doesn't mean you didn't have the intent or determination to do so, which falls in line with the Alexander example (not assuming real historical facts, I'm just using the example given). You're using hindsight to show that they didn't succeed. While that is true, it isn't important to the example.

[Cute_Riolu]

Isn't that the same as saying "If I don't know about it, it doesn't exist"?

If you don't know about it, it DOESN'T exist - at least not to you.

[Sewblon]

If you don't know about it, it DOESN'T exist - at least not to you.

That is an entirely different debate. Just in respect to the Stickverse, we already know that it has several unmapped planes of existance, so any one with high wisdom should realize just how unrealistic a goal World Conquest is in this context.

[HotAndCold]

I don't think conquering another Plane of Existence counts as part of World Domination, though I wouldn't put getting bored enough to try it past Xykon.