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Fastmover
2009-11-26, 08:45 AM
What would our hero Link look like on paper?

His stats, classes and equipment? I've been trying to think of them for a while now.

Kzickas
2009-11-26, 08:52 AM
What would our hero Link look like on paper?

His stats, classes and equipment? I've been trying to think of them for a while now.

depends on the game and the point in the game

KillianHawkeye
2009-11-26, 09:57 AM
And what system you are statting him up in.

ex cathedra
2009-11-26, 10:06 AM
Duskblade/other class with similar spell channeling ability.

Because his sword shoots lasers.

Fastmover
2009-11-26, 10:21 AM
Oh sorry, 3.5, Either of the games. Mostly Ocarina of Time and the Mask.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-26, 10:27 AM
Swordsage/warblade, or swordsage/crusader?

Nero24200
2009-11-26, 10:57 AM
Honestly? I'd probably just peg him as a ranger or other appropraite full bab class. Remember that 3/4's of his abilities come from magical equipment.

Master Sword - Holy, and with an ability to fire beams
Mirrior Sheild - A sheild with Spell Turning built in, though only rays
Tunics - Range from Standard to having Endure Elements or Water Breathing built in.
Boots - Ones which bestow Air walking and another that simply weights alot.
Golden Gauntlets - I think the bonuses provided by normal magical gauntlets don't really suit. I'd say +8-+10 to strength.
Rocs Feather - Replaces Ring of Jumping
And so on, and so forth.

It should be pretty easy in D'n'D, Legend of Zelda is one of the few non-MMORP fantasy settings that endorses the christmas tree effect.

Thorcrest
2009-11-26, 11:16 AM
You do know that there is a Legend of Zelda D20 game, It fully stats out link using its own classes and races. Maybe that will give you an idea of how to stat him. I believe they stated him as in Ocarina of Time.

Zaq
2009-11-26, 12:29 PM
If you're going for the N64 Link, I have to say Bard.

-Good combat, boosted by magic.
-Can use any item ever.
-Lots of his magic is musical in nature.
-Acrobatic and dramatic combat style.
-Interested in legends and prophecies. (Not exclusive to bards, but it fits.)
-Has magic powers, but the explicit magic is secondary to the items and swordplay.

Link just screams bard to me.

Eldrys
2009-11-26, 12:33 PM
Link would have to at least be a multiclass bard. I mean seriously, in all of his games but Four Seasons and Phantom Hourglass, Link has a magical instrument he plays.

Kosjsjach
2009-11-26, 12:42 PM
I'm not so sure Link would be a bard; he might just be a full-BAB class with some ranks in Perform.

This got me thinking, though: what would some of the other characters have classes in? Ganondorf would almost-certainly have a bunch of levels in Warlock; Ocarina of Time Zelda would probably be an Aristocrat multiclassed into a stealth-skillmonkey class...

Heh. Tingle... Artificer, maybe? Don't ask me why.

bosssmiley
2009-11-26, 02:34 PM
Class: Elf. The original all-singing, all-dancing gish class. :smalltongue:

Zovc
2009-11-26, 02:52 PM
Maybe Factotum.

AstralFire
2009-11-26, 02:55 PM
If statting him within universe, he is a Warblade/Fighter, full-stop. Music has inherent magical powers, it is not his talent with music (though Majora's Mask suggests he is talented).

If statting him for export, I would go Warblade/Fighter and ask the DM for a minor artifact musical instrument.

erikun
2009-11-26, 03:32 PM
In core, I always figured Half-Elf Ranger would be the best fit. Hylians don't really feel "full elf" to me. Bard is another possibility, although most of Link's magical abilities seem to be from his equipment, not from spells he learned and runs around casting.

AstralFire
2009-11-26, 03:38 PM
Hylians are, for all effective purposes, humans with pointy ears.

Prime32
2009-11-26, 03:53 PM
Link has too many distinctive sword techniques not to have levels in a ToB class.

I statted his Twilight Princess incarnation up once as a warblade/paladin/master of nine (can't find the build any more). He needs paladin for immunity to fear and ability to wield holy avengers. Or maybe it was swordsage rather than warblade - I seem to remember giving him some Setting Sun manouevers for goat wrestling and a Desert Wind manouver for Hurricane Spin.

Anyway, Iron Heart has a chain of spin attack manouvers and Tiger Claw covers Leap Attack/Helm Splitter. There's a shield block manouver in White Raven or Devoted Spirit. White Raven also has the Dash Attack.

crazedloon
2009-11-26, 03:57 PM
eternal blade .... "Hey listen" :smallwink:

Prime32
2009-11-26, 03:59 PM
eternal blade .... "Hey listen" :smallwink:It also would fit the flavour of the Hero Spirit teaching him... :smallconfused:

For Link's mastery of any weapon he picks up, there's a warblade class feature which lets you transfer Weapon Focus feats to apply to any weapon you train with for a little while. Or the Triforce of Courage could give him a master's touch SLA.

KillianHawkeye
2009-11-26, 05:29 PM
Or the Triforce of Courage could give him a master's touch SLA.

Yeah, I think the biggest problem with statting Link is deciding what effects possession of the Triforce is actually giving him, since that's ultimately the biggest power source he has.

Prime32
2009-11-26, 06:58 PM
Yeah, I think the biggest problem with statting Link is deciding what effects possession of the Triforce is actually giving him, since that's ultimately the biggest power source he has.
They seem to be "ability to wield the Master Sword" and possibly "talent with new things" or "luck".

Cedrass
2009-11-26, 07:02 PM
Don't forget the invisible bag of holding type XX :smallwink:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-26, 07:07 PM
They seem to be "ability to wield the Master Sword" and possibly "talent with new things" or "luck"....idea. It removes his fear, correct? Or at least that's implied by the fluff. What if that's why you're able to reload the game? No fear if you can't die.

Prime32
2009-11-26, 07:13 PM
The Light Arrows seem quite similar to the bows wielded by Solars (especially in TP, where they come with their own bow). The Master Sword is a holy avenger.

Fire Arrows are a divinely granted SLA of this spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameArrow.htm) and Ice Arrows are an Energy Substituted equivalent. The Fire/Ice Rods from LttP are simply wands of scorching ray.


Oh! Link needs the Boomerang Daze and Boomerang Ricochet feats.

The ocarina is a use-activated item of teleport/control weather/daylight/some other stuff with a 10% cost discount for requiring ranks in Perform to use. (use the rules for improving existing items to add new powers over time)

Deku Leaf is an item of feather fall/gust of wind.

Zeful
2009-11-26, 07:29 PM
They seem to be "ability to wield the Master Sword" and possibly "talent with new things".

A Link to the Past suggests that Link's ability to wield the master Sword is intrinsic to the Master Sword rather than the Triforce (as he lacked it in that game).

AstralFire
2009-11-26, 07:52 PM
I've always interpreted the Triforce as such:

The Courage to face down Power.
The Power to stymie Wisdom.
The Wisdom to outwit Courage.

Accordingly, I feel the Triforce of Courage pretty much is an aid in helping the wielder to adventure and grow, and does not come with a visible direct power boost.

Also, courage means nothing if you can't be afraid. Maybe a +1 or +2 bonus against fear, but what I'd do is add a 5% or 10% experience boost but start the character out at lower level.

Kris Strife
2009-11-26, 08:08 PM
Also, courage means nothing if you can't be afraid. Maybe a +1 or +2 bonus against fear, but what I'd do is add a 5% or 10% experience boost but start the character out at lower level.

Please note the Aura of Courage ability doesn't say Paladins don't feel fear, just they aren't affected by it. Thats just what a lot of people assume.

A Paladin should be able to fear that he might fail, allowing other people to be harmed, he should be afraid that he'll do the wrong thing or that he might die with out accomplishing their goal. Thing is, he (or she) doesn't let that stop them. Their faith in good and rightousness keeps them from panicing or being immobilized with fear and that same determination gives their allies an example to strive for.

Or at least, thats how I believe it works. :smallsmile:

CoffeeIncluded
2009-11-26, 08:11 PM
Please note the Aura of Courage ability doesn't say Paladins don't feel fear, just they aren't affected by it. Thats just what a lot of people assume.

A Paladin should be able to fear that he might fail, allowing other people to be harmed, he should be afraid that he'll do the wrong thing or that he might die with out accomplishing their goal. Thing is, he (or she) doesn't let that stop them. Their faith in good and rightousness keeps them from panicing or being immobilized with fear and that same determination gives their allies an example to strive for.

Or at least, thats how I believe it works. :smallsmile:

That's what I believe as well. Courage does not mean a lack of fear.

deuxhero
2009-11-26, 08:13 PM
Rod of Ropes.

Somewhere
2009-11-26, 08:15 PM
If you trust the Nintendo Comic System (I seriously would NOT), the Triforce of Power lets you shoot energy bolts (and eventually corrupt you into a Ganon-type being) while the Triforce of Courage protects you from said bolts (see: the comic where Link had the Triforce of Power)

Triforce of Courage is not why one can reload the game. NES era Link didn't get that triforce until at the end of II.

Zeful
2009-11-26, 08:15 PM
That's what I believe as well. Courage does not mean a lack of fear.

"Courage is not the absence of fear, but the strength to face them regardless."

Or that's how I think it goes.

realbombchu
2009-11-26, 11:44 PM
Hi everyone! Cool topic! I worked on a Zelda fansite for a while and did work in this direction for both v.3.5 and v.4.0. I realized eventually that I didn't have the time to create everything in the kingdom of Hyrule (at least, at the moment), so I came up with some suggestions that other people could flesh out as they pleased. These suggestions are correct as much as I understand what I saw and read in the games and books (not the same as saying I'm right).

Zelda, I think is interesting, because for a while, she's two people, or at least the manga sure makes it seem that way. I decided to stat them seperately, and bar them from using each other's abilities. Zelda was aware of the other half, but not vice versa. A similar technique was used for a villian/insane victim in the Eberron adventure Heck's Heart (not sure if the language program would stop me there, but you get the idea), so you can't say it has never been done. If Sheik isn't a monk, he sure seems like one with shadow dancer levels. I just wish both classes were a little better.

As for Link, I think Hylian is less a race and more a tribe. The ears are a gift from the gods of Hyrule that let them use their telepathic powers (with training, activation, and sometimes a focus). I have to agree that they are basically human, but with some unspecified special powers. Most Hylians never develop these powers and instead live as normal folk. In any case, most Links are hyrulean (human) with hylian knight blood. If you were to make him an elf, it wouldn't be totally wrong, but if you do, I would make later versions half-elves or humans of elven blood. For class, I would also say ranger. In v.4.0 he is a bard multiclassed to ranger or fighter, in my opinion. The music alone does not convince me that he is a bard, and the lack of his own spellcasting is kind of hard to ignore, but they remove that problem a little in v.4.0. I wouldn't worry about the Master Sword being a Holy Avenger. Link is special, to say the least, and it is -his- sword.

Ganon is fun to stat. If you want, I'll post my take on Gerudo racial stats. I don't have a 4.0 version, though. I made one, but it was a renamed elf. In 3.5, Ganondorf is a Barbarian 1/Wizard 6/Rage Mage 3/Eldritch Knight 10, if you ask me. I don't think he is a warlock. He doesn't rely on magic items for all of his spellcasting, and at least in Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker, had some cool spells at his disposal. I wouldn't make him higher than level 20 because people want to be able to beat him without going epic. I made him level 45 once, big mistake. In 4.0, I made him a tactical warlord/wizard. So far, that works.

But of course, it all depends on your take on the events and your perception of the character's abilities.

KillianHawkeye
2009-11-27, 12:09 AM
I agree that the Master Sword is unrelated to the Triforce. It's always been a seperate entity according to the stories. Usually Link has to get 3 medals of valor/sacred stones in order to win the right to wield it.



On idea I had for the Triforce (beyond any specific powers they might grant) was for each one to be tied to particular ability scores. For example:

Triforce of Courage:
- Boosts Constitution and Charisma.
- Grants a bonus to Fortitude saves.

Triforce of Wisdom:
- Boosts Dexterity and Wisdom.
- Grants a bonus to Reflex saves.

Triforce of Power:
- Boosts Strength and Intelligence.
- Grants a bonus to Will saves.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-27, 12:14 AM
I agree that the Master Sword is unrelated to the Triforce. It's always been a seperate entity according to the stories. Usually Link has to get 3 medals of valor/sacred stones in order to win the right to wield it.



On idea I had for the Triforce (beyond any specific powers they might grant) was for each one to be tied to particular ability scores. For example:

Triforce of Courage:
- Boosts Constitution and Charisma.
- Grants a bonus to Fortitude saves.

Triforce of Wisdom:
- Boosts Dexterity and Wisdom.
- Grants a bonus to Reflex saves.

Triforce of Power:
- Boosts Strength and Intelligence.
- Grants a bonus to Will saves.Like the concept, but their division seems off. Courage should be Will, for example, due to that being the saves to resist fear.

Zeta Kai
2009-11-27, 12:31 AM
Like the concept, but their division seems off. Courage should be Will, for example, due to that being the saves to resist fear.

Agreed; I prefer this arrangement better:

Triforce of Power

Boosts Strength & Charisma
Grants a bonus to Fortitude saves

Triforce of Wisdom

Boosts Dexterity & Wisdom
Grants a bonus to Reflex saves

Triforce of Courage

Boosts Constitution & Intelligence
Grants a bonus to Will saves

Kosjsjach
2009-11-27, 01:23 AM
Agreed; I prefer this arrangement better:

...

Triforce of Courage

Boosts Constitution & Intelligence
Grants a bonus to Will saves


I don't think I agree; Link is rarely portrayed as the sharpest tool in the shed (aside from puzzle-solving, of which YOU get to do all the work), but he can get anyone to share their thoughts and problems at a moment's notice. I think [Courage: Con & Cha] works better.

Prime32
2009-11-27, 07:15 AM
There's a spell called nightstalker's transformation which basically turns you into a rogue - Zelda needs that.

See also this thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872510/Hmm_kind_of_a_humourous_challenge_P) - there's a Ganondorf build here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872510/Hmm_kind_of_a_humourous_challenge_P?post_id=338456 954#338456954).

King of the gerudos, The King of Evil, blah blah blah, etc. etc.
Ganondorf - Human Warlock 20

Feats:
Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)(Human), Improved Unarmed Strike (1), Magical Aptitude (Flaw), Scribe Scroll (Flaw), Battle Caster (3), Craft Wonderous Item (6), Craft Magical Arms and Armor (9), Craft Construct (12), Craft Contigeant Spell (15), Deflect Arrows (18)

Flaws:
Noncombatant and Poor Reflexes

Invocations:
Least - Darkness, Devil's Sight, Eldritch Spear, Entropic Warding, Miasmic Cloud
Lesser - Fell Flight, Voracious Dispelling
Greater - Repelling Blast, Wall of Perilous Flame, Warlock's Call
Dark - Dark Forsight, Eldritch Doom

Emulating Gannondorf: Stopping farie-boys from z-targetting you - Miasmic Cloud. Making the place darker during a musical performance - Darkness invocation. Dismiss it when the fight starts. Flying around like you own the room - Fell Flight. Keeping arrows off of you - Entropic Warding combined with the deflect arrows feat. Evil Ball of energy - Eldritch Blast upgraded by the Beshadowed Blast invocation. Lots of Evil Balls of energy - Invocking Darkness followed by an Eldritch Blast upgraded by the Repelling Blast, then dismissing your Darkness. Wacking the central pillar when some duffuss farie-boy tries to get under you - Blast upgraded by the Eldritch Doom invocation. "I have the Craft Construct feat?" you ask? Do Iron KnucklesTM grow on trees? NO! You make them. :evillaugh Now you're asking "I have the Craft Contingeant Spell feat, too?" See below
In case you are actualy defeated
Crafted Contigeant Spells: If my HP is equal to or less than 0, cast the Daylight spell. When I die, cast True Resurection on me. 20 seconds after the True Resurection contigeant spell goes off, transform me into an ogre by casting Polymorph on me. (Triplet)When I transform into an ogre, cast Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance and Eagle's Splendor. If while in ogre form I am reduced to 0 or less HP, cast Flase Life on me. (triplet)When the False Life contingeant spell goes off, cast Expeditious Retreat, Haste and Iron Body on me.Other Things you need to do: Set up a trap that goes off when subjected to bright light, such as that from the daylight spell. The trap is a timed delayed colaspe of your entire fortress. Make two longswords sized for an ogre, and call them "Hrarr" and "Kwoo-eer". Cast Arcane Mark and Drawmi's Instant Summons on them from scrolls you've made. When you start transforming into an ogre, call your swords too you. Surround the ruins of your fortress with Wall of Perious Flame invocations. Go crazy and kill something!

With all this, no fancy-pants farie-boy is going to bother you and live to tell about it.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-27, 07:57 AM
Triforce of Wisdom

Boosts Dexterity & Wisdom
Grants a bonus to Reflex saves

Wait, how does a Triforce of Wisdom not give a bonus to Will saves?

Then there's stuff like the Roc's Feather (+10 bonus to jump checks), Power Glove (+4 bonus to strength checks but not to attacks), Candle (cast Light spell at will), Pegaus Shoes (+20 to speed) and Magic Cape (invisibility 1/day).

Prime32
2009-11-27, 01:49 PM
Wait, how does a Triforce of Wisdom not give a bonus to Will saves?It does. Boosting your Wisdom increases your Will save. :smalltongue:

KillianHawkeye
2009-11-27, 01:49 PM
Agreed; I prefer this arrangement better:

Triforce of Power

Boosts Strength & Charisma
Grants a bonus to Fortitude saves

Triforce of Wisdom

Boosts Dexterity & Wisdom
Grants a bonus to Reflex saves

Triforce of Courage

Boosts Constitution & Intelligence
Grants a bonus to Will saves


Yeah, but now the ability boosts don't match the save bonuses. Although looking back, I messed mine up as well. Dang!

Anyway, I didn't think the Triforce of Courage needed to boost saves vs. fear to emulate courage, because it is naturally drawn to those who are already courageous. Thus Link would already have a naturally high Wisdom score which doesn't need boosting.

Fastmover
2009-11-27, 02:18 PM
I love this thread... you know that?

ErrantX
2009-11-27, 02:35 PM
I'd call Link an elven warblade 8 / fighter 2 / eternal blade 10. The fighter levels change his stance progression a little so he can get better stances when he levels, he'd get an IL of 19 as well. He could use those two bonus feats for shield fighting feats to make the most of his sword and board, or buy more martial abilities. The eternal blade was totally based off of Link; look at the picture. It's a grim, real-er looking version of Link in D&D. Warrior types are always gear dependent anyway, so I think it's perfect.

-X

Fayd
2009-11-27, 02:47 PM
My two cents:

The Triforce of Courage makes him harder to kill. Hit him with world-shattering apocalypic magic? Smash him to the ground with a large statue? He'll get up in a second. Basically, it's what enables him to make use of the Pieces of Heart and Heart Containers. To everyone else, they're shiny pretty heart shaped rocks.

Also, I would not stat him as a graceful fighter. He's kinda berzerkerish. He's got some moves, but he really doesn't have much grace or finesse. Mostly it is just hack-slash-slash-hack-stab or something like that. Helps that his weapon always goes completely through the enemy, regardless of if it kills the foe or not.

Also, Wolf Link has to have a feat that gives him Ghost Touch.

Zeful
2009-11-27, 03:03 PM
My two cents:

The Triforce of Courage makes him harder to kill. Hit him with world-shattering apocalypic magic? Smash him to the ground with a large statue? He'll get up in a second. Basically, it's what enables him to make use of the Pieces of Heart and Heart Containers. To everyone else, they're shiny pretty heart shaped rocks.

Also, I would not stat him as a graceful fighter. He's kinda berzerkerish. He's got some moves, but he really doesn't have much grace or finesse. Mostly it is just hack-slash-slash-hack-stab or something like that. Helps that his weapon always goes completely through the enemy, regardless of if it kills the foe or not.

Also, Wolf Link has to have a feat that gives him Ghost Touch.

Except they use the same gameplay system in A Link to the Past, where Link explicitly doesn't have any part of the Triforce.

Somewhere
2009-11-27, 03:07 PM
Similar issue with the NES-era Link for that matter; heart containers but no Triforce of Courage yet.

Homebrew him a feat that gives him a similar effect to... Hulking Hurler was it? The effect that lets him hit everything in a tile with a melee attack.

realbombchu
2009-11-27, 03:26 PM
It doesn't matter what the Triforce does, because we really don't know. I don't think the writers know, either. I don't know if the creator knows. I mean, it would limit the plot twists they could add in future games. I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun (at all), it's just that stat-ing the Triforce is like explaining the Mournland, it takes something away from the series.

Most of the time the Triforce shouldn't even come up because its power is too sweeping. I think that's why it sleeps most of the time in the games.

But back to Link, I wish I could stat him for you, but without ToB, I don't think anyone will take my guesses seriously. Um, are you trying to play as Link, or are you just curious (you might've mentioned, but I've forgotten)?

Temotei
2009-11-27, 03:33 PM
Hylians are, for all effective purposes, humans with pointy ears.

Agreed. Remember Zelda II: The Adventure of Link? Sure, I think it was a sad game (in terms of performance), but in the game, Zelda is put to sleep with magic. That shows she's not an elf. Half-elf at most, but I'd say human is the closest, if only because a lot of hylians tend to be...less than diplomatic.

EDIT: Oh, and Ganondorf, with only one piece of the triforce, was able to destroy Hyrule, create more huge monsters, and basically do what he wanted. Sounds like wish, except it really wasn't twisted against him, except in the sense that some usually green-clad 16 - 20 year old defeated him and his huge monstrous form and banished him...if that counts. :smallamused:

Somewhere
2009-11-27, 03:38 PM
IIRC, the official player's guide for LttP flat out said that Hylians were not elves, anyway.

Temotei
2009-11-27, 03:42 PM
IIRC, the official player's guide for LttP flat out said that Hylians were not elves, anyway.

Good. Half-elves are kind of bad anyways--especially when compared to humans.

Oslecamo
2009-11-27, 03:43 PM
Dudes, you're all forgeting Link's most important trait!

VOW OF SILENCE!

Also, you need to make some room for mounted combat feats and archery.

drengnikrafe
2009-11-27, 03:50 PM
I seriously doubt anyone's ability to properly stat the Triforce pieces. I mean, in some games Link has it, and in some games he doesn't. Is he really drastically different in those cases, or is he mostly the same person? In my opinion, the Triforce pieces are artifacts of one sort or another, and give a whole slew of power to those that understand them.

Prime32
2009-11-27, 04:21 PM
Also, I would not stat him as a graceful fighter. He's kinda berzerkerish. He's got some moves, but he really doesn't have much grace or finesse. Mostly it is just hack-slash-slash-hack-stab or something like that. Helps that his weapon always goes completely through the enemy, regardless of if it kills the foe or not.
Eh? Link is always tumbling around in combat, parrying attacks, and quickly repositioning himself so he can strike from an unexpected angle. There are, in fact, enemies which cannot be defeated without doing so.

Zeful
2009-11-27, 04:35 PM
I seriously doubt anyone's ability to properly stat the Triforce pieces. I mean, in some games Link has it, and in some games he doesn't. Is he really drastically different in those cases, or is he mostly the same person? In my opinion, the Triforce pieces are artifacts of one sort or another, and give a whole slew of power to those that understand them.

Well in Twilight Princess, he's implied to have the Triforce and instead of turning into a speaker-faced monster or disembodied spirit, like everyone/thing else, he's instead turned into a wolf.

Oslecamo
2009-11-27, 04:57 PM
Eh? Link is always tumbling around in combat, parrying attacks, and quickly repositioning himself so he can strike from an unexpected angle. There are, in fact, enemies which cannot be defeated without doing so.

They can with carefull use of bombs, and hey, for most of the games it was hack and slash with the ocasional whirlwind attack, only on the most recent titles he gets the fancy moves, and even then they are mostly for the looks, whitout being that usefull.

Also parrying? Since when Link parries stuff? He shield blocks at best, and even then it doesn't work against everything:smallconfused:

ericgrau
2009-11-27, 05:59 PM
Even the tumble is a recent addition that's more for looks than anything.

Almost all of his abilities come from magic items, except for the spin attack. Even the sword blast thing was originally him throwing his sword, then since that made no sense it was later made a magical effect of the Master Sword. He's a fighter with a wide array of cool magic items. Simple.

Somewhere
2009-11-27, 06:01 PM
Adventure of Link! Downthrust, Upthrust, and magic that doesn't depend on medallions!

Prime32
2009-11-27, 07:18 PM
I regard the set of moves in newer games (WW, TP, MC, SC2) as being the canonical fighting style for all Links - the only reason they weren't in previous games was engine limitations. Besides, the one who teaches TP Link his special techniques is OoT Link.

Oslecamo
2009-11-27, 07:34 PM
I regard the set of moves in newer games (TP, MC, SC2) as being the canonical fighting style for all Links - the only reason they weren't in previous games was engine limitations. Besides, the one who teaches TP Link his special techniques is OoT Link.

And you don't actualy need those teqniques to finish the game. Most of them are actualy less pratical than just normal slashing at the right time. They're there just to look cool and collect stuff since there's indeed more memory to burn.

Link doesn't save the world because he's a fancy swordfighter. He saves the world because he knows the basics about a lot of tools and weapons, plus being really good at puzles.

Temotei
2009-11-27, 08:13 PM
He's also a different person in a lot of those games. Very few of the Links are the same.

ericgrau
2009-11-27, 09:52 PM
Ha yeah, with all the puzzles and items and basic sword swings, link could even be a tricked out commoner. Or in different games he could be different things.

Zelda seems to be more about the world around Link than the hero himself, so it's hard to say what he is. It's the way he gets its items and solves its puzzles that makes things interesting.

kpenguin
2009-11-27, 09:54 PM
Hmmm... are we looking at high intelligence here, then? All that puzzle solving.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-27, 10:03 PM
Hmmm... are we looking at high intelligence here, then? All that puzzle solving.That'd mesh with him being a warblade. Or maybe a factotum.

KillianHawkeye
2009-11-27, 10:13 PM
Even the sword blast thing was originally him throwing his sword, then since that made no sense it was later made a magical effect of the Master Sword.

I'm sorry, but it was NEVER throwing his sword! That's ridiculous. :smallannoyed:

ericgrau
2009-11-27, 10:14 PM
I had the NES Zelda manual. It was ridiculous but it's in there!

EDIT: Here you go, page 20: http://www.emuparadise.org/Nintendo%20Entertainment%20System/USA%20Manuals/Legend%20of%20Zelda,%20The%20(U).pdf

Zeful
2009-11-27, 10:33 PM
Except "throw[ing] his sword" isn't what he does in the game, you can still attack while the "Full-heart-sword" is still on screen. Further given the Illustration, I doubt the original phrase used in the Japanese manual was "Throw his sword."

ericgrau
2009-11-27, 10:42 PM
I try not to apply further logic to things that are already ridiculous.

Who knows what the Japanese says, though I'd be curious if anyone really knows. And if it's not "throw", what is he doing with the ordinary starter sword?

Somewhere
2009-11-27, 11:07 PM
Yea, it's odd, English paraphernalia for NES Zelda says "throw". As for the original Japanese...
http://zs.ffshrine.org/album/legend-of-zelda/japanese-instruction-manual-scans/z1-18-19.jpg
It says that he is able to shoot a beam from the tip

Zeful
2009-11-27, 11:47 PM
Who knows what the Japanese says, though I'd be curious if anyone really knows. And if it's not "throw", what is he doing with the ordinary starter sword?

For your first question: It's possible to get acess to the original japanese manuals, as the tendancy to hoard everything is not a unique trait, so any bilingual Japanese-[Insert English speaking country here]ian, and many nerdish Japanese High Schoolers (last time I checked English is routinely taught in Japanese High Schools) would be able to tell you what Link's doing with that sword.
For your second question: "Firing a ethereal proxy blade capable of cutting as well as the original blade" But that's a little wordy.

Oh and Somewhere: The original Legend of Zelda came out during the bad time of Japanese-English translation. It's honestly no surprise that the translation is not quite accurate.

Somewhere
2009-11-27, 11:53 PM
Oh, I'm used to that era. But, going from 'shoot a beam from the tip' to 'throwing a sword' still seems like a stretch to my senses. It's not like the former would seem weird to Americans.

erikun
2009-11-28, 12:04 AM
This, of course, ignores that you can still use the sword after it has been "thrown" but before it hits anything. You just need to wait for the energy-splash to disappear before you can "throw" it again.

[/overplayed original LoZ geek]

ericgrau
2009-11-28, 12:14 AM
For your first question: It's possible to get acess to the original japanese manuals, as the tendancy to hoard everything is not a unique trait, so any bilingual Japanese-[Insert English speaking country here]ian, and many nerdish Japanese High Schoolers (last time I checked English is routinely taught in Japanese High Schools) would be able to tell you what Link's doing with that sword.
For your second question: "Firing a ethereal proxy blade capable of cutting as well as the original blade" But that's a little wordy.

Oh and Somewhere: The original Legend of Zelda came out during the bad time of Japanese-English translation. It's honestly no surprise that the translation is not quite accurate.


http://zs.ffshrine.org/album/legend-of-zelda/japanese-instruction-manual-scans/z1-18-19.jpg


Done. Manual image spoilered for forum stretchiness. And now we only need someone who knows Japanese.


Oh, I'm used to that era. But, going from 'shoot a beam from the tip' to 'throwing a sword' still seems like a stretch to my senses. It's not like the former would seem weird to Americans.
Perhaps after a few mishaps stemming from that era they were afraid of what "beam from the tip of the sword" might mean and changed it. :smallbiggrin:

Somewhere
2009-11-28, 12:21 AM
For the 2nd time, shoot a beam from the tip is what the relevant portion says.

ericgrau
2009-11-28, 12:44 AM
Oh whoops I didn't see.

AstralFire
2009-11-28, 02:11 AM
And you don't actualy need those teqniques to finish the game. Most of them are actualy less pratical than just normal slashing at the right time. They're there just to look cool and collect stuff since there's indeed more memory to burn.

Link doesn't save the world because he's a fancy swordfighter. He saves the world because he knows the basics about a lot of tools and weapons, plus being really good at puzles.

...Actually, -all- of the sword techniques are pretty damn useful in TP (some are harder to learn to use well than others, but still), and you do, in fact, need parry to finish Wind Waker. :P I think you may actually need the sword plant to finish TP as well, it's been a while.

Zeful
2009-11-28, 02:48 AM
...Actually, -all- of the sword techniques are pretty damn useful in TP (some are harder to learn to use well than others, but still), and you do, in fact, need parry to finish Wind Waker. :P I think you may actually need the sword plant to finish TP as well, it's been a while.

Yes, you need Finish to beat the game. Without it you can't kill any of the bosses (at least you can't kill the first boss without it, I've tried).

Temotei
2009-11-28, 03:58 AM
So Link should be a warblade for the maneuvers, is what we're deciding? Or at least multiclassed into it?

Zeful
2009-11-28, 04:31 AM
So Link should be a warblade for the maneuvers, is what we're deciding? Or at least multiclassed into it?

Probably, though things like the Shield Bash and Finish are quite clearly feats. Finish is quite clearly a Coup de Grace that's made into a standard action rather than a Full Round action.

Oslecamo
2009-11-28, 07:09 AM
Probably, though things like the Shield Bash and Finish are quite clearly feats. Finish is quite clearly a Coup de Grace that's made into a standard action rather than a Full Round action.

This. I'll concede that Link has some special usefull moves, but he certainly doesn't have 23 of them, and they can be pretty much all be emulated by regular feats.

And there's actualy a feat that makes coup de grace useable as a standard action, altough I can't remember the book from where it is right now.

Prime32
2009-11-28, 07:50 AM
Add paladin levels for immunity to fear, a special mount, and wielding holy swords.

So right now he's looking like an LG human factotum X/paladin 5/warblade X. Or we could cut that down to LG human factotum X/cloistered cleric (Farore) 1/prestige paladin 3/warblade X (Advice from Navi/Midna/etc. counts as Knowledge Devotion).

Epona could be covered by Wild Cohort rather than special mount, but I'm concerned that this build will need all the spare feats it can get.


EDIT: Found that old Link build of mine. It's really old and probably filled with errors. Oh, and it has levels in gestalt fighter//paladin. :smallconfused: Flick of the Wrist could be replaced with a skill trick, for one thing.

Link, male human swordsage 2/fighter-paladin 14/master of nine 5
Medium Humanoid (Human)
Hit Dice: 7d8+14d10+42 (150 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 30 ft.
Armour Class: 34 (+6 Dex, +2 Wis, +4 +5 mithral chain shirt, +7 +5 steel heavy shield)
Base Attack/Grapple: +19
Attack: Holy avenger +27 melee (1d8+8 plus 2d6 holy) or +1 Composite short bow +26 ranged (+4)
Full Attack: Holy avenger +27/+22/+17/+12 melee (1d8+8 plus 2d6 holy)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Martial powers, Smite evil, Spells
Special Qualities: Aura of Courage
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +18, Will +14
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 16
Skills: ( ranks) Balance, Concentration, Jump, Tumble
Feats: Acrobatic Strike (PHB2), Active Shield Defence (PHB2), Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Defensive Strike (CW), Dodge, Elusive Target (CW), Flick of the Wrist (CW), Giantbane (CW), Improved Feint, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Tumbling Feint (PHB2), Whirlwind Attack
Environment: Any
Organisation: Solitary
Challenge Rating:
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Lawful good

Manoeuvers
Desert Wind: Desert Tempest, Flashing Sun, Wind Stride
Diamond Mind: Rapid Counter, Stance of Clarity (Stance)
Iron Heart (X): Steel Wind
Setting Sun: Counter Charge, Feigned Opening, Giant Killing Style (Stance), Shifting Defense (Stance)
Stone Dragon: Colossus Strike, Mountain Hammer, Roots of the Mountain (Stance)
Tiger Claw: Claw at the Moon, Death from Above, Feral Death Blow, Leaping Dragon Stance (Stance), Sudden Leap, Swooping Dragon Strike, Wolf Climbs the Mountain

Zeful
2009-11-28, 11:42 AM
This. I'll concede that Link has some special usefull moves, but he certainly doesn't have 23 of them, and they can be pretty much all be emulated by regular feats.

And there's actualy a feat that makes coup de grace useable as a standard action, altough I can't remember the book from where it is right now.

Some of Link's moves are better described within D&D as maneuvers, but the amount only justify at best 2 levels of warblade or whatever.

Temotei
2009-11-28, 02:31 PM
Redeads must have the best fear gaze attack ever if Link has bonuses to fear saves from the paladin. Plus divine grace.

I don't know about Epona. It seems like she's just Link's horse. I don't think he needs a feat or anything for that. Epona's Song would have to be connected to her, though.

Then again, paladin is kind of out there for Link. That means he has lay on hands, detect evil (I don't doubt it--did you see his face when he first saw Ganondorf?), aura of good (sure), smite evil (not shown in-game, but it's likely--maybe on the last blow on Ganon in Ocarina of Time), aura of courage (sure), and divine health (yep). So really, the only thing I have against paladin is lay on hands. :smallbiggrin: I don't think he'd be past 3rd level in paladin though. He's never depicted as having spells, except in The Adventure of Link, and when he has items artifacts that give him that power. I'd also say 3rd level ranger for endurance, combat style (archery), favored enemy, track (seriously, how does he find everything so quickly without direction, other than that crazy owl?), and wild empathy. Fighter (thug variant?) and warblade after that probably. Actually, now that I think about it, he might have levels in the barbarian variant that gets rid of rage for favored enemy and combat style. Link never takes extra damage from not seeing or hearing the opponent, so uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge wouldn't be far out there.

Prime32
2009-11-28, 02:40 PM
Redeads must have the best fear gaze attack ever if Link has bonuses to fear saves from the paladin. Plus divine grace.It's because you know what comes after the gaze that you get afraid. :smalltongue:


I don't know about Epona. It seems like she's just Link's horse. I don't think he needs a feat or anything for that. Epona's Song would have to be connected to her, though.
Well, Epona seems to be above-average by horse standards and paladins can call their mount to their side wherever they are.


I'd also say 3rd level ranger for endurance, combat style (archery), favored enemy, track (seriously, how does he find everything so quickly without direction, other than that crazy owl?), and wild empathy.Wild empathy seems like a possibility, but Link doesn't pull off crazy stuff with a bow - it's just a weapon he uses a lot.


Link never takes extra damage from not seeing or hearing the opponent, so uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge wouldn't be far out there.Link gets ambushed plenty of times, but those cases are in cutscenes.

Temotei
2009-11-28, 03:19 PM
It's because you know what comes after the gaze that you get afraid. :smalltongue:

*shudder*


Well, Epona seems to be above-average by horse standards and paladins can call their mount to their side wherever they are.

Good point.


Wild empathy seems like a possibility, but Link doesn't pull off crazy stuff with a bow - it's just a weapon he uses a lot.

Rapid Shot isn't that crazy. It's just faster shooting. And it's a far better choice than Two-Weapon Fighting for Link. Imagine--kokiri sword and master sword being dual-wielded. :smallamused:


Link gets ambushed plenty of times, but those cases are in cutscenes.

He gets ambushed, but he doesn't take extra damage from the sneak attacks or anything like that, as far as I know. In fact, he takes no damage usually, according to his heart gauge.

Dire Moose
2009-11-28, 11:33 PM
For Link's Twilight Princess incarnation, I would figure that he's a Paladin of Freedom with a couple of wilderness rogue levels.

Initially, he's a fairly competent jack-of-all-trades living in an isolated, edge-of-civilization village, thus the wilderness rogue levels. His experience with escaping the twilit Hyrule Castle and purging the darkness from Faron Woods would have earned him his first paladin level, which was what he exclusively leveled up in from then on.

I have him as a CG paladin variant due to the fact that he winds up having to use more trickery and deceit than a standard paladin would be comfortable with.

The rogue aspect is mostly there to explain all the various skills Link employs that are inconsistent with being a paladin (Tumble much?), and the fact that a great deal of his combat style involves hitting enemies' weak spots via back slice, hitting unaware enemies with the mortal draw, etc. which I interpret as sneak attacks.

Prime32
2009-11-29, 08:01 AM
Initially, he's a fairly competent jack-of-all-trades living in an isolated, edge-of-civilization village, thus the wilderness rogue levels. His experience with escaping the twilit Hyrule Castle and purging the darkness from Faron Woods would have earned him his first paladin level, which was what he exclusively leveled up in from then on.
Rogue isn't the jack-of-all-trades class. Factotum is the jack-of-all-trades class.


I have him as a CG paladin variant due to the fact that he winds up having to use more trickery and deceit than a standard paladin would be comfortable with.
Huh? What does Link do that breaks the paladin's code? He seems highly lawful to me, always following the orders of authority figures, etc. There is nothing inherently chaotic about making a Move Silently check.


The rogue aspect is mostly there to explain all the various skills Link employs that are inconsistent with being a paladin (Tumble much?), and the fact that a great deal of his combat style involves hitting enemies' weak spots via back slice, hitting unaware enemies with the mortal draw, etc. which I interpret as sneak attacks.Mortal Draw = Iaijutsu focus, or one of many Diamond Mind/Tiger Claw manouvers.

Oslecamo
2009-11-29, 08:19 AM
Rogue isn't the jack-of-all-trades class. Factotum is the jack-of-all-trades class.


No, chamaleon is the jack-of-all trades class! It would fit well for Link to take a few levels of that, since he indeed does a lot of stuff.

"You needed a warrior? Oh, you needed a delivery boy instead?I'm sorry, I meant to say the warrior is on his way. I'm the delivery boy"-Link, master chamaleon

And it's just 10 levels, and not int and feat starved like factotum.

Prime32
2009-11-29, 09:12 AM
No, chamaleon is the jack-of-all trades class!No, incarnate is Spartacus. :smallmad:

Oslecamo
2009-11-29, 10:06 AM
No, incarnate is Spartacus. :smallmad:

Well, the rogue was the original jack of all trades, but then they printed the factotum, and after they printed the chamaleon.

Like you said, when the factotum came out there were "engine limitations", so chamaleon is the "canon" jack of all trades right now.:smalltongue:

Dire Moose
2009-11-29, 10:11 AM
Huh? What does Link do that breaks the paladin's code? He seems highly lawful to me, always following the orders of authority figures, etc. There is nothing inherently chaotic about making a Move Silently check.

Stealing a sword and shield from Ordon Vilage doesn't strike me as particularly Lawful, and neither does stealing bombs from the pirates in The Wind Waker.

And as for following orders, what did he do when ordered to stay out of Hyrule Castle in Ocarina of Time again?

Oslecamo
2009-11-29, 10:15 AM
And as for following orders, what did he do when ordered to stay out of Hyrule Castle in Ocarina of Time again?

Not to mention desecrating and pillaging Naryuu knows how much tombs and holy places, enslavong faeries, driving people mad (the poor windmill dude), using advanced necromancy and acepting gifts from demonic deities:smallbiggrin:

Prime32
2009-11-29, 12:10 PM
Stealing a sword and shield from Ordon Vilage doesn't strike me as particularly Lawful, and neither does stealing bombs from the pirates in The Wind Waker.
Link wasn't particularly happy about that, but Midna was pressing him and he didn't have much choice but to go along with what she was saying. As for the bombs, it's stealing from pirates so it's okay.:smallamused:


And as for following orders, what did he do when ordered to stay out of Hyrule Castle in Ocarina of Time again?The Great Deku Tree, Ancient Embodiment of Nature: "Link, you must meet Princess Zelda or THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS GOING TO DIE! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnPN2yOup9E)"
Joe Q. Hylian, Random Guard: "You aren't getting in because you're a dumb kid. Nyah nyah. Oh, I might let you in if you bribe me."



Not to mention desecrating and pillaging Naryuu knows how much tombs and holy places, enslavong faeries, driving people mad (the poor windmill dude), using advanced necromancy and acepting gifts from demonic deities:smallbiggrin:Don't tell me paladins in your games don't do this. :smalltongue:

Oslecamo
2009-11-29, 01:01 PM
Don't tell me paladins in your games don't do this. :smalltongue:

Well, I once played a paladin that found himself on a burning tavern. No, I didn't start the burning. Directly at least. There was no way I could stop the fire so I searched for any people in there, got some sheets togheters and improvised an escape route to save them. As I searched to see if there was someone else I found the chest of the innkeeper, who had died. I said I was breaking the lock and taking whatever was inside. The DM warned me that the voices in my head told me that was EEVVVIIIILLL, and I would fall if I did that. After some arguing that it would do no good to anyone leting the loot burn I managed to get out only with a warning, and that was because I had saved the people before searching for the loot.

And let's not talk about necromancy on my RL group. It goes something like this:
Me:So, why's necromancy considered so evil again?
DM:Because it's EEEEVVVIIILLL!!!
Me:What?:smallconfused:
DM:EEEVVIIILLL!!! Oh, look, the town guards are dragging another necromancer just found animating dead corpses to burn him in the pyre. The people cheer for it. You sure you want to talk about necromancy not being EEEVVVILLLL on this city?
DM:...So, what were we hired to kill again?

And incidentaly we once acepted demonic gifts from a Balor for closing our eyes to their operations, but there was no paladin in the party then. Everybody went down one step in the alignment scale tough.