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View Full Version : Failing a Will Save by default



industrious
2009-11-26, 08:38 PM
What circumstances are there that a character automatically fails a Will save? I want to say that sleeping does so, but I'm not sure. Anybody want to help me out?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-26, 08:41 PM
You always get a save. A paralyzed character gets a Reflex save, even though they technically have no reflexes. If you're asleep, you count as 'Willing', but that doesn't remove all saves.

NEO|Phyte
2009-11-26, 08:48 PM
What circumstances are there that a character automatically fails a Will save? I want to say that sleeping does so, but I'm not sure. Anybody want to help me out?

Thayan knights automatically fail will saves from spells cast by Red Wizards of Thay.

Aside from that, the only thing I can think of is that you can voluntarily forgo a save if you choose.

ericgrau
2009-11-26, 08:56 PM
^ Yeup.

Unconscious creatures are considered willing for spells that requiring willing targets. But that rule doesn't specify what to do about spells requiring will saves or if that means you voluntarily give up your saving throw. There's at least 1 spell that only targets sleeping creatures and grants a will save.

Since the rules don't specify, I'd use common sense... not try to interpret them in the silliest way possible and claim "Well, that's RAW". IMO give a will save to anything that still has an active mind, conscious or not. Probably anything with a wis of 1 or higher. But what you do is completely up to the DM since the rules don't say.

industrious
2009-11-26, 09:02 PM
Hmmm....my plan involves casting mind control spells while the target is sleeping. I guess I'll have to ask the DM about that, then.

denthor
2009-11-26, 09:06 PM
In all versions of D&D from basic to 3.5 you fail a will save when you say you fail a will save. The best example that nobody ever looks at is when a healing spell comes in.

Undead feel the positive energy do not like it and can make a will save. You feel the energy and say heal me no roll and you get full benefit not half like the undead.

Thurbane
2009-11-26, 09:27 PM
"But your honour, the rules clearly state that unconcious creatures are willing..." :smalltongue: