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Rev.Scarecrow
2009-11-26, 08:40 PM
I need some help making a character. I really like the monk unarmed damage chain since you don't have to draw your weapon you can't lose it, and it goes up without having to get new weapons. Fortunately the sword sages have a option to get a unarmed damage chain exactly like it so I don't have to be a underpowered monk.

I also know that the Shadow hand chain is largely based around dexterity damage when you get the feat shadow blade.

But I will have more maneuvers available to be ready than there are shadow hand maneuvers.

Wisdom is also important for defense for Sworsdsages. My DM has house ruled that since I lost the light armor proficiency my wisdom based defense applies to unarmored now instead. So wisdom is important so I wanna get the Shiba protector prestige class to add that to my damage as well minimizing the need for strength.

I came up with this character

Dante

Male Human Fighter 2 / Swordsage 1
Neutral Evil

Strength 10 (+0)
Dexterity 15 (+2)
Constitution 13 (+1)
Intelligence 13 (+1)
Wisdom 15 (+2)
Charisma 8 (-1)

Size: Medium
Height: 5' 10"
Weight: 170 lb
Skin: Pale
Eyes: Red
Hair: Black

Total Hit Points: 19

Speed: 30 feet

Armor Class: 14 = 10 +2 [dexterity] + 2 [wisdom]

Touch AC: 14
Flat-footed: 12

Initiative modifier: +3 = +2 [dexterity] +1 [quick act]
Fortitude save: +4 = 3 [base] +1 [constitution]
Reflex save: +4 = 2 [base] +2 [dexterity]
Will save: +2 = 0 [base] +2 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +2 = 2 [base]
Weapon Finesse: +4 = 2 [base] +2 [dexterity]
Attack (unarmed): +5 = 2 [base] +2 [dexterity] +1 [weapon focus]
Attack (missile): +4 = 2 [base] +2 [dexterity]
Grapple check: +2 = 2 [base]

Light load:
Medium load:
Heavy load:
Lift over head:
Lift off ground:
Push or drag:
33 lb. or less
34-66 lb.
67-100 lb.
100 lb.
200 lb.
500 lb.

Languages: Common Infernal

Feats:

Alertness
Combat Expertise
Improved Unarmed Strike
Weapon Finesse
Shadow blade [hand-edit as needed]

Traits:

Skill Name

Key
Ability

Skill
Modifier

Ability
Modifier

Ranks

Misc.
Modifier
Appraise Int 1 =
+1

Balance Dex* 2 =
+2

Bluff Cha -1 =
-1

Climb Str* 0 =
+0

Concentration Con 7 =
+1
+6
Diplomacy Cha -1 =
-1

Disguise Cha -1 =
-1

Escape Artist Dex* 2 =
+2

Forgery Int 1 =
+1

Gather Information Cha -1 =
-1

Heal Wis 2 =
+2

Hide Dex* 8 =
+2
+6
Intimidate Cha -1 =
-1

Jump Str* 0 =
+0

Knowledge (religion) Int 3 =
+1
+2
Listen Wis 4 =
+2
+2 [alertness]
Move Silently Dex* 8 =
+2
+6
Dance Cha 4 =
-1
+5

Ride Dex 2 =
+2

Search Int 1 =
+1

Sense Motive Wis 2 =
+2

Spot Wis 4 =
+2
+2 [alertness]
Survival Wis 2 =
+2

Swim Str** 0 =
+0

Tumble Dex* 3 =
+2
+1
Use Rope Dex 2 =
+2


* = check penalty for wearing armor

Dante's Equipment:

0 lb
2 lb
5 lb
10 lb
1 lb
4 lb
_____
22 lb Weapons / Armor / Shield (from above)
Backpack
Bedroll
Rations (1 day) x10
Torches x1
Waterskins x1

Animefunkmaster
2009-11-26, 09:21 PM
With the heavy use of bold, posting the build the way you did, and wanting to “not be an underpowered monk” I am tempted to take the OP as a joke.

Assuming you aren’t joking here are a few things:
Swordsage 3 is superior to fighter2/sword sage 3. More skills, better saves, more maneuvers. Unless you’re timing the swordsage’s progression for something, the fighter bonus feats aren’t worth it.

How about picking up the feat:
Intuitive Strike (Wisdom to attack rolls, less to worry about strength)
Adaptive Style (re ready maneuvers)
Free

Feats to look at are:
Snap Kick (Extra attack ALL THE TIME, Standard action, maneuvers, ect, better than twfing and flurry)
Shadow Blade (You mentioned it, I am not fan if only for limiting its uses to your stances and maneuvers)
Superior Unarmed Strike (More monk damage isn’t bad)
Improved Natural Attack (obvious monk like feat is obvious)
Robilars Gambit/Kharmic Strike (these feats are a good ways off, but you can prep for there prereqs, if you head for dodge also look at elusive target in CW, it is pretty handy)
Combat Reflexes (Getting to use kharmic strike while flat footed is nice plus more AoOs)
Improved trip/stunning fist/side step/evasive reflexes/Anything to make your unarmed strikes do more than just damage for your AoO+ Snap Kick

Tactics, Run Around with your maneuvers, anything that decides to melee you will get an AoO + snap Kick in return.

You have a lot of odd number stats, if you rolled these, consider upping your age category for a quick -1 to physical stats +1 to mental.

Mongoose87
2009-11-26, 09:39 PM
Thing is, the two fighter levels mean you'll actually get your last (marginally useless) iterative attack, and sooner.

Whatever you do, make sure the Swordsage is your first level, so you can try to get x6 skill points at first level.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 09:49 PM
Alright. First and foremost, this coming idea does require an alignment shift, but it'll work out.

First, become Lawful Evil. I know, this looks counter-productive, but trust me.
Next, screw fighter and gestalt (pray for DM ftw) Monk and Swordsage
Then, after 10 levels, multiclass into Sohei. Its from OA. Basically, a lawful barbarian.
following that, Take whatever prestige classes you want after 20th

What you get
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbarian-like Rage ability
Full BAB
Maneuvers
Unarmed Strike
Wis to AC
Monk's Dodge bonus

Items?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monk's Belt-Bonus monk levels and more unarmed damage
Items that give you either AC or Wis bonuses
Kama of the Scorpion (I think. From MIC)- Kama damage + Unarmed with a better crit

Feats?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Superior Unarmed
Snap Kick
Snatch Arrows
Any other feats that require "Improved Unarmed Strike" as a prereq

Mongoose87
2009-11-26, 10:21 PM
Alright. First and foremost, this coming idea does require an alignment shift, but it'll work out.

First, become Lawful Evil. I know, this looks counter-productive, but trust me.
Next, screw fighter and gestalt (pray for DM ftw) Monk and Swordsage
Then, after 10 levels, multiclass into Sohei. Its from OA. Basically, a lawful barbarian.
following that, Take whatever prestige classes you want after 20th

What you get
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbarian-like Rage ability
Full BAB
Maneuvers
Unarmed Strike
Wis to AC
Monk's Dodge bonus

Items?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monk's Belt-Bonus monk levels and more unarmed damage
Items that give you either AC or Wis bonuses
Kama of the Scorpion (I think. From MIC)- Kama damage + Unarmed with a better crit

Feats?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Superior Unarmed
Snap Kick
Snatch Arrows
Any other feats that require "Improved Unarmed Strike" as a prereq

This seems unlikely to work, and I don't understand why it would have full BaB.

Rev.Scarecrow
2009-11-26, 10:22 PM
With the heavy use of bold, posting the build the way you did, and wanting to “not be an underpowered monk” I am tempted to take the OP as a joke.

Assuming you aren’t joking here are a few things:
Swordsage 3 is superior to fighter2/sword sage 3. More skills, better saves, more maneuvers. Unless you’re timing the swordsage’s progression for something, the fighter bonus feats aren’t worth it.

How about picking up the feat:
Intuitive Strike (Wisdom to attack rolls, less to worry about strength)
Adaptive Style (re ready maneuvers)
Free

Feats to look at are:
Snap Kick (Extra attack ALL THE TIME, Standard action, maneuvers, ect, better than twfing and flurry)
Shadow Blade (You mentioned it, I am not fan if only for limiting its uses to your stances and maneuvers)
Superior Unarmed Strike (More monk damage isn’t bad)
Improved Natural Attack (obvious monk like feat is obvious)
Robilars Gambit/Kharmic Strike (these feats are a good ways off, but you can prep for there prereqs, if you head for dodge also look at elusive target in CW, it is pretty handy)
Combat Reflexes (Getting to use kharmic strike while flat footed is nice plus more AoOs)
Improved trip/stunning fist/side step/evasive reflexes/Anything to make your unarmed strikes do more than just damage for your AoO+ Snap Kick

Tactics, Run Around with your maneuvers, anything that decides to melee you will get an AoO + snap Kick in return.

You have a lot of odd number stats, if you rolled these, consider upping your age category for a quick -1 to physical stats +1 to mental.
No I was being serious I am this much of a noob and I really think that monks are underpowered but Swordsages are pretty cool.

I didn't roll the stats it's actually because of a point buy system that my DM uses. All stats start at 8 and you have a maximum of 28 points. Then you buy points at this system

8 to 14= one point per increase
15 to 16 = two points per increase
17 to 18 = three points per increase

so to get the maximum defense from stats its better to do 15 in dex and wis I probably should have a positive con mod but charisma doesn't matter much. strength shouldn't have a negative mod and int needs to be 13 for combat expertise.

I put some things in bold so attention should be paid to them. It also appears to be shorter so I get less TLDRs or at least they will pay attention to the important things.

I don't see a point to intuitive strike since it doesn't add to my attack modifier but replaces the strength with wisdom weapon finesse does the same thing since it works on unarmed.

The point of taking fighter is for the extra two feats and the extra HP. The skill difference is pretty big but the feats are needed if I wanna get Shiba Protector for no thought to add my wisdom modifier to my damage and to hit. With Weapon finesse and shadow blade give the same effect. Since I'm doing unarmed improved unarmed strike is needed. Snap kick looks pretty awesome since it basically acts as flurry of blows but can be used on AoO. Speaking of AoO combat reflexes is a great pick for someone with that high of a dex mod.

Eldariel
2009-11-26, 10:31 PM
Try Martial Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) if you want feats while maintaining skills. This means low HD and BAB, but if you're going by fractional BAB, that's no problem. If not, it hurts a bit unless you take 4 levels.

Oh, and go 16 Dex/14 Wis or 16 Wis/14 Dex 'cause it's the exact same cost on PB, but one gives you plain higher modifiers for the first levels. I suggest high attack stat so you can actually hit something with your medium BAB.

imperialspectre
2009-11-26, 10:36 PM
Okay, no. Do not take 2 fighter levels. Do not take any fighter levels. That is the path of defeat when it comes to swordsage builds.

See, you're not actually feat-dependent with a good swordsage build, and you're even less feat-dependent than you think because the feats you've picked so far are not very good. Here's how swordsages work:

First off, you only need Wisdom and Dexterity, with a little bit of Constitution. Drop your Intelligence down to 12, because Combat Expertise sucks for you. Get rid of Alertness, because it sucks for everyone. Get rid of Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, because they necessitate MAD, which you don't want.

Second, you don't need Shiba Protector. 4th-level swordsages get to add Wisdom to damage anytime they execute a strike. Since you don't get iterative attacks very easily, all your attacks should be strikes. So, just get Intuitive Attack (BoED, gives Wisdom to attack rolls instead of Strength) and now all of your offense keys off of Wisdom.

Third, see how you've freed up a bunch of feat slots this way? Great! Now it's time to make your attacks hurt a lot more. Snap Kick gets you a free unarmed attack even when you execute a strike, which means that it's always a good thing. Superior Unarmed Strike pushes you up on the unarmed strike chain, and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) basically makes your unarmed strike do damage as if you were Large-sized.

This should give you a lot more capability in melee combat, which makes you generally stronger as a swordsage. You should focus your stats in Wisdom with a secondary focus in Constitution, so that you boost your two more important saves, your AC, and all of your offense.

Good luck. Hope the advice helps.

Edit: Also, listen to Eldariel. He is very wise in the ways of optimization, and martial characters are far more his specialty than mine.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 10:37 PM
This seems unlikely to work, and I don't understand why it would have full BaB.

Sohei gets a full BAB.

Mongoose87
2009-11-26, 11:25 PM
Sohei gets a full BAB.

Ah, I thought you meant for the whole build.

Animefunkmaster
2009-11-26, 11:35 PM
No I was being serious I am this much of a noob and I really think that monks are underpowered but Swordsages are pretty cool.

Perhaps I should clarify, or perhaps I read you wrong. I read it as claiming the swordsage as an underpowered monk. After rereading, this was in error. You are correct in the assumption that monks are lacking.

In regards to stats, since it is point buy try to make your stats even numbers or at most 1 being for either the increasement at level for or prereq. The reason for this is that stat number doesn't matter so much as modifiers, and the modifier only increases at an even number.

The reason for intuitive strike is the same reason for weapon finesse except that wisdom is slightly better for you than dex. You do not want to be dependent on str to hit. The rationale for wisdom over dex is that with your abilities your wisdom is better for your AC (since it applies when flat footed) and will automatically get a better version of shadow blade but for wisdom. I say better since you can be in any stance and at 12th level (assuming you last that long) it applies to two disciplines.

On the dip, the average hp you will gain from the two level dip is 2, but you will lose out on 8 skill points, improved initiator level (1 level off isn't much to scoff at but 2 off the progression of maneuvers/stances known are). Wisdom to AC (remember this is lv 2 ability) and getting that much closer to wisdom per damage (from swordsage) not to mention unarmed strike damage.

But speaking of a dip, I do believe dipping into something that has light armor prof would be worthwhile for your AC, but skills, hp, and bab should still be considered. Obviously you want higher than d8 hit dice, and full bab, hopefully as much skills as you can muster.

Some to think about:
Swashbuckler:If you want weapon finesse over intuitive strike, pick this up for the added 2 skill points over fighter
Warblade: Extra Skill Points, a few manuevers, and weapon aptitude will make some interesting unarmed strikes. not to mention d12 hd.


I would do a single level at most and continue swordsage. with some light armor.

Also with combat expertise as a prereq, might as well check out improved trip.

Rev.Scarecrow
2009-11-27, 01:19 AM
Perhaps I should clarify, or perhaps I read you wrong. I read it as claiming the swordsage as an underpowered monk. After rereading, this was in error. You are correct in the assumption that monks are lacking.

In regards to stats, since it is point buy try to make your stats even numbers or at most 1 being for either the increasement at level for or prereq. The reason for this is that stat number doesn't matter so much as modifiers, and the modifier only increases at an even number.

The reason for intuitive strike is the same reason for weapon finesse except that wisdom is slightly better for you than dex. You do not want to be dependent on str to hit. The rationale for wisdom over dex is that with your abilities your wisdom is better for your AC (since it applies when flat footed) and will automatically get a better version of shadow blade but for wisdom. I say better since you can be in any stance and at 12th level (assuming you last that long) it applies to two disciplines.

On the dip, the average hp you will gain from the two level dip is 2, but you will lose out on 8 skill points, improved initiator level (1 level off isn't much to scoff at but 2 off the progression of maneuvers/stances known are). Wisdom to AC (remember this is lv 2 ability) and getting that much closer to wisdom per damage (from swordsage) not to mention unarmed strike damage.

But speaking of a dip, I do believe dipping into something that has light armor prof would be worthwhile for your AC, but skills, hp, and bab should still be considered. Obviously you want higher than d8 hit dice, and full bab, hopefully as much skills as you can muster.

Some to think about:
Swashbuckler:If you want weapon finesse over intuitive strike, pick this up for the added 2 skill points over fighter
Warblade: Extra Skill Points, a few manuevers, and weapon aptitude will make some interesting unarmed strikes. not to mention d12 hd.


I would do a single level at most and continue swordsage. with some light armor.

Also with combat expertise as a prereq, might as well check out improved trip.

The only problem I have with Insightful strikes is that you have to use strikes to do it which are limited. Stances seem easier to stay in.

Can you use adaptive style to reuse the same moves again? So instead of using a full action to refresh one ability you get all back?

Like you use the last maneuver you have readied (clinging shadow strike for this example) so you use a full round action to get all your maneuvers back which you make them all clinging shadow strike giving you 5 strikes before you have to meditate for a full round?

If it works that way then I'll go with
str 10
dex 14
con 14
int 12
wis 16
chr 8

and defiantly the feats
Intuitive attack
Improved Unarmed attack
???
Now what race should I be since I don't HAVE to be a human anymore. But the extra feat is nice.

Douglas
2009-11-27, 01:27 AM
The only problem I have with Insightful strikes is that you have to use strikes to do it which are limited. Stances seem easier to stay in.
Strikes are almost always better than full attacking anyway, so "having to use strikes" is not a drawback. What is a drawback is that you have to use strikes belonging to a single chosen discipline.


Can you use adaptive style to reuse the same moves again? So instead of using a full action to refresh one ability you get all back?
Yes.


Like you use the last maneuver you have readied (clinging shadow strike for this example) so you use a full round action to get all your maneuvers back which you make them all clinging shadow strike giving you 5 strikes before you have to meditate for a full round?
You cannot ready the same maneuver multiple times. A maneuver is either readied or not readied, double-readied is not an available option.


Improved Unarmed attack
Unarmed Swordsage gets that one for free automatically.

Rev.Scarecrow
2009-11-27, 02:45 AM
Ok how does this look?


Dante

Male Human Swordsage 3
Neutral Evil

Strength 10 (+0)
Dexterity 14 (+2)
Constitution 14 (+2)
Intelligence 12 (+1)
Wisdom 16 (+3)
Charisma 8 (-1)

Size: Medium
Height: 5' 10"
Weight: 170 lb
Skin: Pale
Eyes: Red
Hair: Black; Straight; Thick Beard / Hirsute

Total Hit Points: 22

Speed: 30 feet

Armor Class: 15 = 10 +2 [dexterity] +3 [wisdom]

Touch AC: 15
Flat-footed: 13

Initiative modifier: +3 = +2 [dexterity] +1 [Quick act]
Fortitude save: +3 = 1 [base] +2 [constitution]
Reflex save: +5 = 3 [base] +2 [dexterity]
Will save: +4 = 1 [base] +3 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +5 = 2 [base] +3 [wisdom]
Attack (unarmed): +6 = 2 [base] +3 [wisdom] +1 [weapon focus]
Attack (missile): +5 = 2 [base] +3 [wisdom]
Grapple check: +2 = 2 [base]

Light load:
Medium load:
Heavy load:
Lift over head:
Lift off ground:
Push or drag:
33 lb. or less
34-66 lb.
67-100 lb.
100 lb.
200 lb.
500 lb.

Languages: Common Infernal

Feats:

Intuitive Attack
Adaptive Style
Willing Deformity (this chain sounds fun but I may switch it for shadow blade)

Traits:

Skill Name

Key
Ability

Skill
Modifier

Ability
Modifier

Ranks

Misc.
Modifier
Appraise Int 1 =
+1

Balance Dex* 4 =
+2
+2 [tumble]
Bluff Cha -1 =
-1

Climb Str* 0 =
+0

Concentration Con 8 =
+2
+6

Diplomacy Cha -1 =
-1

Disguise Cha -1 =
-1

Escape Artist Dex* 2 =
+2

Forgery Int 1 =
+1

Gather Information Cha -1 =
-1

Heal Wis 3 =
+3

Hide Dex* 8 =
+2
+6
Intimidate Cha 5 =
-1
+6
Jump Str* 2 =
+0
+2 [tumble]
Knowledge (history) Int 2 =
+1
+1
Listen Wis 9 =
+3
+6
Move Silently Dex* 8 =
+2
+6
Dance Cha 4 =
-1
+5

Ride Dex 2 =
+2

Search Int 1 =
+1

Sense Motive Wis 3 =
+3

Spot Wis 6 =
+3
+3
Survival Wis 3 =
+3

Swim Str** 0 =
+0

Tumble Dex* 8 =
+2
+6
Use Rope Dex 2 =
+2


* = check penalty for wearing armor

Dante's Equipment:

0 lb
2 lb
5 lb
2 lb
3 lb
4 lb
_____
16 lb Weapons / Armor / Shield (from above)
Backpack
Bedroll
Flint and steel
Rations (1 day) x2
Torches x3
Waterskins x1

Total

♠Spade♠
2009-11-27, 02:45 AM
Whatever you do, make sure the Swordsage is your first level, so you can try to get x6 skill points at first level.

Tome of Battle's not really my cup of tea, but you should probably be aware that the swordsage does not, in fact, multiply skill points by six. It was errata-ed to multiply by four just like everyone else.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-27, 02:48 AM
Tome of Battle's not really my cup of tea, but you should probably be aware that the swordsage does not, in fact, multiply skill points by six. It was errata-ed to multiply by four just like everyone else.No, it wasn't. The ToB errata is a joke, and I'm fairly sure it never got to that. That said, I've never had a DM or a player even consider it.

Mongoose87
2009-11-27, 02:52 AM
Tome of Battle's not really my cup of tea, but you should probably be aware that the swordsage does not, in fact, multiply skill points by six. It was errata-ed to multiply by four just like everyone else.

Yeah, ToB's errata is about 10% for ToB, and 90% for Complete Arcane (Mage?)

♠Spade♠
2009-11-27, 03:02 AM
Well, if nothing else, CustServ says it should be x4.


No, it wasn't. The ToB errata is a joke, and I'm fairly sure it never got to that. That said, I've never had a DM or a player even consider it.

Personally, I've never seen a GM allow the x6. I mean, why would they when every other base class in 3.X was only x4?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-27, 03:04 AM
Well, if nothing else, CustServ says it should be x4.



Personally, I've never seen a GM allow the x6. I mean, why would they when every other base class in 3.X was only x4?That's what I meant. Sorry if it was unclear. Does anyone argue in favor of the x6?

♠Spade♠
2009-11-27, 03:07 AM
That's what I meant. Sorry if it was unclear. Does anyone argue in favor of the x6?

That's cool, then. I'll simply blame my lack of comprehension on the trypto-whatever-it-is from turkey-day.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-11-27, 03:27 AM
My regular group lets it get x6, because that's what the book says. Why not, it is a skill-based class after all, and all it really does is allow you to start a few extra skills at 4 ranks. We typically use those for synergy skills that won't go over 5 ranks anyway, to get some versatility and bonuses without sacrificing too many ranks in whatever skills the character is focusing on.

I've never really been a big fan of the Willing Deformity line of feats, though I really like the Aberration Blood feats in Lords of Madness. Willing Deformity is only better than Aberration Blood if you're going to be using Intimidate a lot, otherwise you really can't beat the versatility of Aberration Blood. You can actually make a really decent Monk/Psionic Fist grappler build using those, though it somewhat depends on the DM cooperating with using Warped Mind in place of Wild Talent.

Augmented Lurk
2009-11-27, 03:44 AM
Sohei gets a full BAB.

Uh, no it doesn't.

MichielHagen
2009-11-27, 05:49 AM
Ok how does this look?
Strength 10 (+0)
Dexterity 14 (+2)
Constitution 14 (+2)
Intelligence 12 (+1)
Wisdom 16 (+3)
Charisma 8 (-1)

Feats:

Intuitive Attack
Adaptive Style
Willing Deformity (this chain sounds fun but I may switch it for shadow blade)


You put way too many info in your post. Please stick to the optimization part, i dont care what color your hair is.

I would take Weapon Finesse and Shadowblade, so you can focus more on DEX (which would add to AB, AC and damage). Wisdom does not add to damage.

Master_Rahl22
2009-11-27, 12:33 PM
I agree with most of the advice given so far. You might consider Shadow Sun Ninja, especially if you like Shadow Hand and Setting Sun maneuvers. See if your DM will let your levels of Unarmed Swordsage count as Monk levels for the SSN feature to boost your Monk level with stuff. Even if he doesn't let that stack, you can gain flurry, a speed boost, and continue to increase unarmed damage while getting some really awesome abilities too. Touch of the Shadow Sun plus some kind of undead friendly to the party equals unlimited healing at will. By the time you're level 10 and get the ability to bestow negative levels, you can spend the chump change (8000gp) for a Talisman of Undying Fortitude which protects you from ability damage, among other things. Give out negative levels right and left, and right before the ability ends you become immune to the Con damage which results.

Rev.Scarecrow
2009-11-27, 02:26 PM
You put way too many info in your post. Please stick to the optimization part, i dont care what color your hair is.

I would take Weapon Finesse and Shadowblade, so you can focus more on DEX (which would add to AB, AC and damage). Wisdom does not add to damage.

Oh sorry about the unnecessary stuff I'm using a character generator and posting the results of that I'll just post the ability scores and the feats from now on.

As far as weapon finesse and shadowblade go we talked about them earlier in this thread. I was all ready to do that but someone pointed out that at level 4 a swordsage gets a ability that allows you to add your wisdom mod to your damage (while using strikes). So technically both Shadow blade and the swordsage ability do stack so I can use both to get the damage up to +5 as long as I am in a shadowfist stance and I am using strikes from one school.


Tome of Battle's not really my cup of tea, but you should probably be aware that the swordsage does not, in fact, multiply skill points by six. It was errata-ed to multiply by four just like everyone else.

Yeah my DM has changed the x6 to x4 he understands that it was a typo.
He also banned all of unearthed arcana since for the most part it is just a exploitable book.



I've never really been a big fan of the Willing Deformity line of feats, though I really like the Aberration Blood feats in Lords of Madness. Willing Deformity is only better than Aberration Blood if you're going to be using Intimidate a lot, otherwise you really can't beat the versatility of Aberration Blood. You can actually make a really decent Monk/Psionic Fist grappler build using those, though it somewhat depends on the DM cooperating with using Warped Mind in place of Wild Talent.

I was mainly picking willing deformity for the reach increase later on but aberration blood looks pretty cool. From a roleplaying perspective this guy is going to be involved with demons and just generally a bad guy. Neutral evil explains this guy rather well. But I'm going to have him masquerade as a good guy so he can get more stuff. The rest of the group is Chaotic neutral or True Neutral so my alignment won't cause much of a problem. He is defiantly going to be using intimidate to get what he wants if diplomacy fails. But truth be told he's not gonna try diplomacy for very long.

Rev.Scarecrow
2009-11-27, 08:46 PM
The last step is really what schools I should take i figure that I can have most of 3 different schools mastered by the time I'm level 20 Shadow hand is a definite but the others I'm unsure of. Any suggestions?

Also I think I'm gonna take the aberration line starting with a tail since it will be the easiest to hide from a role playing perspective. I would rather have the spot or search one but those will be impossible to hide. Eventually I'll get starspawn and maybe deep spawn.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-11-28, 12:43 AM
Also I think I'm gonna take the aberration line starting with a tail since it will be the easiest to hide from a role playing perspective. I would rather have the spot or search one but those will be impossible to hide. Eventually I'll get starspawn and maybe deep spawn.

Flexible Limbs would actually be the easiest to hide IMO, a tail is one of things that can accidentally come into plain view. Being 100% double-jointed doesn't initially scream of being not what you seem, plus the bonus on grapple checks could prove useful. Then you could explain Inhuman Reach as additional elbows, which enables you to fold them against themselves into your sleeves to appear normal. In combat the character would look like Dhalsim, extending his limbs to strike distant opponents, and if anyone asks just play it off as a Swordsage ability.

If you're going to be using Hide and Move Silently, be sure to get the feat Darkstalker also in LoM.

Rev.Scarecrow
2009-11-28, 02:09 PM
Flexible Limbs would actually be the easiest to hide IMO, a tail is one of things that can accidentally come into plain view. Being 100% double-jointed doesn't initially scream of being not what you seem, plus the bonus on grapple checks could prove useful. Then you could explain Inhuman Reach as additional elbows, which enables you to fold them against themselves into your sleeves to appear normal. In combat the character would look like Dhalsim, extending his limbs to strike distant opponents, and if anyone asks just play it off as a Swordsage ability.

If you're going to be using Hide and Move Silently, be sure to get the feat Darkstalker also in LoM.

Good point flexible limbs is easier to hide and I guess would be better I just rather dislike grapple... I think I'll take darkstalker when we start getting around that level where there are things with blindsight.

Setting sun, Shadow hand Desert wind and diamond mind seem pretty good. You get weapon focus for all of the weapons from 2 disciples but I'm pretty sure you can't get say shortsword weapon focus twice. I'm I right?