DnD 3.5: Psion questions

[KaeltheAwesome]

Hello folks, first post I've done so bear with me if I make any newbie mistakes :)

I've been considering a psion lately for use in some online dnd campaigns I hop into with friends. However, the DM I play with most is leery of Psions due to never using psionics and is worried I have some pun pun type guy up my sleeve.

Now, this isn't my intention at all, I'm just looking for something different from the usual and the whole power point system intrigues me. My main question is, how balanced would you consider the psion to be? Which method of treating psionics would be the most fair? (I.E.-Psionics is different, etc.) and which specialized line of psion is the most broken and the most underpowered, so I don't get gimped but I don't go crazy.

Thanks!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Full transparency is far more balanced. There's a reason it's so heavily recommended. With that, and remembering the rule that # of points spent is capped at your ML, Psionics is far better balanced than core full-casters.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It's less unbalanced than a wizard, and about on the same level as a sorcerer.

[KaeltheAwesome]

That should be interesting then, considering my usual DM loves sorcs to death and considers them the coolest class evar. (I find him silly, but I think maximized fireballs just thrill him for reasons unknown)

Ya max transparency looks like its really fair! I've always thought of psionics like this anyway, so it won't require any rethinking.

Another question I have is with a core spellcaster type, like say a wizard, I make my spells more powerful in higher levels by using meta magic feats. Are meta power feats just as useful, or does the ability to load on power points make them more situational?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Another question I have is with a core spellcaster type, like say a wizard, I make my spells more powerful in higher levels by using meta magic feats. Are meta power feats just as useful, or does the ability to load on power points make them more situational?

Metapsionic feats are weaker than metamagic feats because they require a psionic focus.

[PhoenixRivers]

Meta-power feats are pretty bad, actually.

The real gem for psionics is in augmenting.

Summon Monster 1? you need a whole new spell when you hit level 3.

Astral Construct? One power, every level.

Augmentation gives you your flexibility, especially where SoL powers are concerned.

[AirGuitarGod32]

To start off with, yes, there are Metamagic-type feats called ironically "Metapsionics" personally, I avoid abuse of metapsionics because later on, it gets Roleplay fundamentally broken. What I mean is this: a character is supposed to be an extension of the player, not some drone with the personallity of a cardboard box. They are supposed to think and feel, much like a real person. If all one does is abuse the system, then how can he enjoy the storytelling experience. One such as youself I only pray to Vecna can understand this.

If your DM is wary of psionics, but you want to dabble into the vast powers, I suggest actually running a Soulknife or a Psi Warrior or hell, gestalt the two. This gives you a low-difficulty "baby step" into the world of psionics.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I suggest actually running a Soulknifeha ha ha ha aha!

HA!

Please don't do that. Suggesting the Soulknife is just cruel.

[Dracomorph]

It's a good way to get past the whole "psionics is broken" mentality fast.

[PhoenixRivers]

To start off with, yes, there are Metamagic-type feats called ironically "Metapsionics" personally, I avoid abuse of metapsionics because later on, it gets Roleplay fundamentally broken. What I mean is this: a character is supposed to be an extension of the player, not some drone with the personallity of a cardboard box. They are supposed to think and feel, much like a real person. If all one does is abuse the system, then how can he enjoy the storytelling experience. One such as youself I only pray to Vecna can understand this.

If your DM is wary of psionics, but you want to dabble into the vast powers, I suggest actually running a Soulknife or a Psi Warrior or hell, gestalt the two. This gives you a low-difficulty "baby step" into the world of psionics.

I have a rather hard time envisioning how a feat selection can suck the entire soul out of the character and turn it into a cardboard box...

Hm. Maybe I have an easier time making characters that practice strange arts, and giving them personality.

As for system abuse? This is a mechanical balance question. This isn't a "you optimize, so your soul is damned to the realms of Asmodeus, heathen scum" question.

[KaeltheAwesome]

Also kind of curious, how does a shaper type psion stand up to say a kineticist?

Shaper intrigues me because you can create constructs to suit whatever fight you are heading into (or even mid fight? I'm not sure if you can manifest more than one) and the menu options are really neat.

I'm also starting up a campaign in which I'm the DM and would like to offer my players the psionics option, if only because two of them want to be sorc/wizard respectively and its a 4-5 person party. 2 arcane casters like that would get silly fast XD

[PhoenixRivers]

Also kind of curious, how does a shaper type psion stand up to say a kineticist?

Shaper intrigues me because you can create constructs to suit whatever fight you are heading into (or even mid fight? I'm not sure if you can manifest more than one) and the menu options are really neat.

I'm also starting up a campaign in which I'm the DM and would like to offer my players the psionics option, if only because two of them want to be sorc/wizard respectively and its a 4-5 person party. 2 arcane casters like that would get silly fast XD

The biggest asset of a shaper is a construct maker. A single feat at level 3 will get that power for you.

I prefer kineticists and telepaths, myself. However, psionics is good about having useful powers in the general list.

[KaeltheAwesome]

That was my main problem with specialist wizards when I first looked at them because it was almost like "So I'm trading 2 useful schools to make my favorite skill just a teeensy bit stronger?" (this was in neverwinter nights 1, my first introduction into dnd)

also I can't seem to find the construct maker feat. Is it in the Expanded Psionics Handbook?

[IthilanorStPete]

He means spending a feat on Expanded Knowledge to grab Astral Construct.

[AirGuitarGod32]

{Scrubbed} .I do actually enjoy the soulknife and when its run correctly, it can go toe to toe with any melee char. and don't argue. A maug soulknife can easilly stand against a maug ranger from Complete Warrior

And as for Shaper, I'd suggest, if you want to run shaper, multiclass/gestalt with Marshall. You'd get a lot of willing allies to get powerful auras and plus you get a lot of cool bonuses

[Pharaoh's Fist]

To start off with, yes, there are Metamagic-type feats called ironically "Metapsionics" personally, I avoid abuse of metapsionics because later on, it gets Roleplay fundamentally broken. What I mean is this: a character is supposed to be an extension of the player, not some drone with the personallity of a cardboard box. They are supposed to think and feel, much like a real person. If all one does is abuse the system, then how can he enjoy the storytelling experience. One such as youself I only pray to Vecna can understand this.
What in the name of Vaul are you talking about?

[Gnomo]

You have to be careful, cause is not that as simple as just Magic > Psionics.

First off, Manifesting has less weaknesses than Spellcasting, for example manifesting during a grapple is a walk in the park, you don't need components, your flexibility is much greater than sorcerer's (although that's easy), and your reliability is greater than a wizard's (if you need to cast Dispel 9 times a day you can do so without any hazzle). There are only 2 points that make Spellcasting a bit better than manifesting:

1.- There are many more spells published than powers, so you can nit-pick all you want when you are a wizard, thus use the best combinations you can find, this makes it so that Spells do better than Powers, cause in the avalanche of spells available there will be always some that breaks the game without even trying.

2- You can more easily stack metamagic, stacking metapsionic is much more dificult and limited. On the metapsionics vs metamagic side, in the comparison each side gets highlights, metapsionics is cheaper in level investment but metamagic gets crazy at a very high level with stacking.

Long story short, it's harder to abuse manifesting, but it's fairly doable. Just try not to abuse it and you will be fine in the eyes of your DM.

[Anyr]

{Scrubbed} judging by your post...I do actually enjoy the soulknife and when its run correctly, it can go toe to toe with any melee char. and don't argue. A maug soulknife can easilly stand against a maug ranger from Complete Warrior

And as for Shaper, I'd suggest, if you want to run shaper, multiclass/gestalt with Marshall. You'd get a lot of willing allies to get powerful auras and plus you get a lot of cool bonuses

Do you have any hard figures to back up either of these assertions? By most accounts the Soulknife is strictly inferior to even a Fighter. The entire class is based around what is basically a piece of free equipment which can be equalled or outmatched by the other classes with a little cash. They have worse BaB, less hit points and a host of other weaknesses with barely any compensation. Could you point out a few reasons why they shouldn't be regarded as a weak class?

Multiclassing a manifester class with a non-manifester class is usually a bad idea. The benefits gained from taking a few levels of Marshal don't stand up to that of extra levels of Psion. Gestalt is another matter entirely, but with straight multiclassing then the exchange isn't worth it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

{scrubbed} I do actually enjoy the soulknife and when its run correctly, it can go toe to toe with any melee char. and don't argue. A maug soulknife can easilly stand against a maug ranger from Complete Warrior

And as for Shaper, I'd suggest, if you want to run shaper, multiclass/gestalt with Marshall. You'd get a lot of willing allies to get powerful auras and plus you get a lot of cool bonusesNew thread started (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7389480#post7389480), to avoid a derail.

[Sinfire Titan]

What in the name of Vaul are you talking about?

He's just explaining that he has no idea what optimization means, or trying to bait.

[KaeltheAwesome]

Errm to the above statement about expanded knowledge, why would I have to take that to get Astral Construct if I am a shaper psion? Don't I get that as my discipline power anyway?

[IthilanorStPete]

What PR was saying was that a kineticist or w/e can just take that feat and get access to the biggest reason to play a Shaper.

[KaeltheAwesome]

Oh that makes alot more sense! Ya looking down the list, metacreativity is interesting, but depends on the character you want to play. Shaper would be good for a major villain/good npc in a campaign though, as he could use things like genesis to make a home base and give his evil/good army more weapons and such with Psionic Fabricate.

Kineticist would probably be a more useful choice for a player, particularly in hack and slash campaigns right?

[Gnomo]

C'mon, Astral Construct is not the only Shaper only good power, Psionic Fabricate and Greater Psionic Fabricate are quite awesome too. You can spend all your power points but at the end of the day you will get your very own ship, castle, bridge, siege weapon, what-you-say.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

And how is the name "metapsionic" ironic?

Irony is defined as



The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.

An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.

A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. See Synonyms at wit1.

Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: "Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated" (Richard Kain).

An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity. See Usage Note at ironic.

Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: "Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated" (Richard Kain).

An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity. See Usage Note at ironic.

Dramatic irony.

Socratic irony.

That word you used... I don't think it means what you think it means.

[KaeltheAwesome]

There are some feats in here that look really useful, namely:Twin power. Sure, you have to be focused first, but its not a bad prepatory ability. Is focusing enough of a hassle to just avoid those particular line of feats, or is just worth it to only take one so you only have to worry about focusing before combats where it would be useful?

[jokey665]

Focusing/metapsionics can definitely be worth it if you build you character towards it. Psionic meditation makes focusing take a move action instead of full-round action, and psicrystal containment lets you have a second focus.

[KaeltheAwesome]

That would be rather useful. Hmm, I'll have to start marking feats as useful and seeing when I could fit them in on level progression. While I make a character for current online pick up games, I also wish to see if a psion would be useful for the much lower level party I'm DMing for, or one of the memorable villains I wish to create (Order of the Stick has really made me want to create memorable and persistent villains, Go Redcloak!)

[Lycanthromancer]

Hello folks, first post I've done so bear with me if I make any newbie mistakes :)There are a few buttons you can press to get the boards riled up (monks, trashing psionics or ToB, killing catgirls with science), but this isn't one of them. Welcome aboard!


I've been considering a psion lately for use in some online dnd campaigns I hop into with friends. However, the DM I play with most is leery of Psions due to never using psionics and is worried I have some pun pun type guy up my sleeve.Breaking psionics is possible, but difficult. I wouldn't worry about it unless you're intentionally going after broken (or are using the Psionics Is Different option, which is just bad).


Now, this isn't my intention at all, I'm just looking for something different from the usual and the whole power point system intrigues me. My main question is, how balanced would you consider the psion to be? Which method of treating psionics would be the most fair? (I.E.-Psionics is different, etc.) and which specialized line of psion is the most broken and the most underpowered, so I don't get gimped but I don't go crazy.Psionics is good. It's fluid, dynamic, and really stresses a conservative mindset due to easily running out of power points if you don't go easy.

None of the disciplines are "broken" in any sense (though they are somewhat abusable; metamorphosis and psionic dominate, I'm looking at you). Some are more useful in some situations than others, however, and they're utilized in different ways. Shaper psions are quite probably the most useful in the most situations, due to never having to worry about immunities (dimensional anchor, mindless critters, mind blank), and don't even have to stress overly much about antimagic fields (various instantaneous creation crystal powers). They really focus on creativity, which is quite fitting.

However, feel free to choose whichever discipline you like that fits the campaign. Telepaths are great in a socially-focused campaign. Nomads are good for battlefield control and party mobility. Seers are good for recon, skillmonkeying, and ranged attackers. Kineticist are good for battlefield control and damage-dealing. Egoists are good for gishes (though they work best if a psicrystal is available and is the focus of your buffs, at least at higher levels).


To start off with, yes, there are Metamagic-type feats called ironically "Metapsionics" personally, I avoid abuse of metapsionics because later on, it gets Roleplay fundamentally broken. What I mean is this: a character is supposed to be an extension of the player, not some drone with the personallity of a cardboard box. They are supposed to think and feel, much like a real person. If all one does is abuse the system, then how can he enjoy the storytelling experience. One such as youself I only pray to Vecna can understand this.This really makes no sense at all. You can be mechanically effective without destroying your ability to roleplay, unless your goal is to roleplay an ineffective, dead weight, worthless person (in which case, why is your character in the party at all?) People who purposefully put their lives on the line daily will not bring someone along who will increase their chances of dying unless they absolutely have to, because otherwise they won't last long at all.


If your DM is wary of psionics, but you want to dabble into the vast powers, I suggest actually running a Soulknife or a Psi Warrior or hell, gestalt the two. This gives you a low-difficulty "baby step" into the world of psionics.Psychic warrior is okay, but soulknife is crap. It's supposed to be a mix of melee and stealth, but does neither one well, and the only class feature it really has is "I have a weapon," which isn't done well at all (and, in fact, is outdone at it by a single 1st level psychic warrior power; it's sad, really).


{Scrubbed}Not cool, man. Not cool at all.


.I do actually enjoy the soulknife and when its run correctly, it can go toe to toe with any melee char. and don't argue.A maug soulknife can easilly stand against a maug ranger from Complete Warrior"I'm right, you're wrong, I don't want to listen otherwise, nyah" is not a viable discussion strategy. Soulknives are worse than the vast majority of martial classes, except the monk (because it's just bad). It doesn't deal much damage (and its only real damage booster doesn't work against a lot of creatures), has medium BAB with no way to make up for it, and is only partially saved by some decent PrCs (which are in CPsi, oddly enough).


And as for Shaper, I'd suggest, if you want to run shaper, multiclass/gestalt with Marshall. You'd get a lot of willing allies to get powerful auras and plus you get a lot of cool bonusesMarshal auras don't work on mindless creatures (Int 3 or better only).

If you want to play with a shaper, ignore the astral construct nerf in CPsi, as well as all of the Ectopic Form feats (eww!), because they're crap. If you want to focus on astral constructs, check out the Mind's Eye constructor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b). It's an official WotC prestige class, and is really, really fun.

[KillianHawkeye]

I just wanted to point out that psionic focus lasts until you use it, or maybe until you sleep. The point is, you can just gain your focus in the morning or after a fight instead of trying to do it right before. This way, you don't even need Psionic Meditation unless you're planning on expending your focus more than once per fight.

[erikun]

Hihi. Let me go ahead and answer a few of your questions here.

--

First, the big draw for psionics is the PP pool and power augmentation. You can spend as many PP as you like on each power, limited only by your level and remaining PP. This means you can toss all your PP into several high-damage powers, or divide them out into many lower-cost powers (like weaker Astral Constructs) and keep going for much longer.

How well the DM deals with this varies between person to person. Personally, I like the variety, from being able to go through a half-dozen encounters to taking on one tough, large fight. Others dislike it, preferring the physical limit of higher level magic that a wizard or sorcerer can do.

Of course, a specialist wizard can have more high-level spells than a psion (or sorcerer) can manifest/cast in a day.)

--

Metapsionics are handy, in that you can apply them at any time, and they don't cost extra actions like a sorcerer. What they do cost is your psionic focus, which means you need to spend a round (or move action, with a feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicMeditation)) in order to regain it. The metapsionic must also be paid in PP, and the PP is still limited by you level, so you can't manifest at "full level" with metapsionics. (Much like a wizard cannot metamagic with his highest level spells at first.)

Obviously, this stops the psion from spamming Maximized rays every turn. Problems can occur at higher levels, as a psion can manifest with a standard action, use a Quickened power as an immediate action, then use a move action to regain the psionic focus. (And if you have Schism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm), you can throw out a 3rd power at the same time.) This is absurbly expensive to do, but will allow the psion to "go nova" very will with minimal setup. Quicken Power is still useful for getting out of a jam, but you might want to avoid the obvious abuse if you're worried about the DM crying "Overpowered!"

Other than that, pick whatever metapsionics you think you'll use. Twin Power is quite an investment and only useful at higher levels, but it obviously gives you the biggest payoff. On the other hand, something like Empower Power will be useful to you for longer in your career, and is still useful at higher levels. (Although I guess this is the same advice for metamagic.)

--

For disciplines, Kinesis is considered one of the better, while Shaping is one of the weaker. The reason is that "blasting" is much more viable for a psion; spending PP to augment powers increases both the damage and DC, making low level psion powers much better at later levels than low level wizard spells. Shaper is considered weaker because, as someone already mentioned, you can take the Expanded Knowledge feat to get Astral Construct, the biggest reason to be a Shaper.

Note, though, that blasting spends PP quickly. Conversely, Astral Construct lasts for 1 round/level, reguardless of how much PP you spend. So if you have both, you can dump PP into kinesis powers or conserve PP into weaker constructs. (or dump PP into powerful constructs, depending on need)

Remember that your skills defer depending on discipline, so that may affect your final choice.

--

As others have mentioned, using magic-psionics transparency is best. In fact, I wouldn't recommend using the "Psionics is Different" rule unless you had a very good reason for doing so.

--

Nobody in the XPH (or SRD) starts play with a Psicrystal, not even the psion of wilder. They can be handy if you're planning on spending feats on one, but just getting a psicrystal to have a psicrystal opens up the same vulnerabilities as having a wizard familiar.

--

Mind's Eye Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi) from the WotC website has a TON of psionic options, although if your DM is unfamiliar with psionics, you may want to stick with just XPH to start.

--

Other than all than, have fun! :smallsmile: Ask any other questions you may have.

[Draz74]

I just wanted to point out that psionic focus lasts until you use it, or maybe until you sleep. The point is, you can just gain your focus in the morning or after a fight instead of trying to do it right before. This way, you don't even need Psionic Meditation unless you're planning on expending your focus more than once per fight.

... which you will, if you're focusing on Metapsionics at all.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm seeing a surprising amount of Shaper hate. Shapers have a number of very worthwhile powers besides Astral Construct. Mostly noncombat powers, but that shouldn't completely rule them out.

[Lycanthromancer]

You have to be careful, cause is not that as simple as just Magic > Psionics.Mostly true, sure.


First off, Manifesting has less weaknesses than Spellcasting, for example manifesting during a grapple is a walk in the park, you don't need components, your flexibility is much greater than sorcerer's (although that's easy), and your reliability is greater than a wizard's (if you need to cast Dispel 9 times a day you can do so without any hazzle).This is definitely true. Psionics isn't weighed down by arbitrary class weaknesses based around the flavor of "sing I'm a little teapot while doing the Macarena and throwing bat crap because a book told you to," and is more reliable as a result without any op-fu at all.

Psionics, however, doesn't have the sheer number of "Nuh-uh, you can't touch me" abilities that magic-types have. The tiniest bit of optimization can make an arcanist utterly untouchable, while psions require three times the work to get half as far.

For instance, mirror image alone can give you a 87.5% miss chance without metamagic if you're high level and/or roll well, which stacks with several other sources of miss chances, whereas the best a psion can do is 50% for a short time, which doesn't stack with anything else they can do sans multiclassing or high-level items.


There are only 2 points that make Spellcasting a bit better than manifesting:Not exactly true. There's at least one more.


1.- There are many more spells published than powers, so you can nit-pick all you want when you are a wizard, thus use the best combinations you can find, this makes it so that Spells do better than Powers, cause in the avalanche of spells available there will be always some that breaks the game without even trying.Most spells outside of core are weaker than the ones in core. There are exceptions (celerity and the orb spells come to mind), but most of the broken is in core.


2- You can more easily stack metamagic, stacking metapsionic is much more dificult and limited. On the metapsionics vs metamagic side, in the comparison each side gets highlights, metapsionics is cheaper in level investment but metamagic gets crazy at a very high level with stacking.This is definitely true. Metamagic beats metapsionics hands down, because metapsi has lots of restrictions, while metamagic has very few (which can be circumscribed and bypassed very easily).

The third reason why magic >>>>> psionics on the broken scale is because an absurd number of core spells are incredibly b0rked. Core is full of abusive spells that don't even require combos to wreck a game (shrink item, alter self and the polymorph line, glitterdust, planar binding, explosive runes, simulacrum, clone, forcecage, shadow evocation/transmutation, silent image, rope trick, and so on). I could name ways that are core-only to get infinite wishes by the time you hit level 4. These get considerably worse if you start thinking about combinations of spells, too.

I swear nobody playtested core magic beyond mindless blasting at all. The game was designed around healing clerics and blasting wizards, with monsters doing little aside from attacking the party fighter, and it shows.


Long story short, it's harder to abuse manifesting, but it's fairly doable. Just try not to abuse it and you will be fine in the eyes of your DM.Definitely true. Don't go out of your way to break the game, and you very likely won't.

[erikun]

EDIT: Oh, and I'm seeing a surprising amount of Shaper hate. Shapers have a number of very worthwhile powers besides Astral Construct. Mostly noncombat powers, but that shouldn't completely rule them out.
I happen to like the Shaper myself. I'm just pointing out that the biggest selling point for the Shaper - Astral Construct - is easily gained by spending a feat.

Draz does have a point, though. Take a look at the power list for each discipline (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowerList.htm) before making a choice. Shaper has stuff like Hail of Crystals (14d4 single target, 9d4 everything else in area), Crystalize (basically Flesh to Stone), and Genesis (make new planes!) are quite useful, and even Repair Damage can get a lot of use.

[Lycanthromancer]

Shaper is bar-none my favorite discipline, but then I favor classes that let me be imaginative and optimize heavily without destroying balance.

I have found that I tended to be weaker number-wise with a shaper than the parties I play with, but that I was so much more versatile that it made their heads spin. I was always useful, and always had a trick up my sleeve I could use, and I was always effective. Sometimes I was the only person in the group that could pull off anything because while the rest of the group had to color-by-numbers, I could ignore the numbers altogether and simply color outside the lines. It was refreshing, and very, very fun. I was as useful against absurdly high-level creatures as I was those of our level, but conversely, I wasn't that much more useful against creatures of our level or lower.

For example:I played a blue goblin shaper 6/constructor 10 (obviously focused on the astral construct power), when our group (all ECL 16) was faced with an ancient shadow dragon dracolich, which was, I believe, around CR 23 or so. It was supposed to overpower us due to the story (it was meant to abduct me for the BBEG, since I was the only Evil character and she thought she could blackmail me into being a turncoat), but the DM was a fair guy and allowed us to overcome challenges beyond our level if we could out-think him or use abilities cleverly.

The rest of the party had difficulty hitting its AC or saves, and its Spell Resistance made affecting it directly with magic a tricky proposition. Instead of doing the obvious thing and blasting, I knocked it out of the air with a wall of ectoplasm anchored to a tree, then grappled it with a Huge construct with a bunch of little constructs using Aid Another to swarm it.

The rest of the party then hacked at it for a couple of rounds until it breath-weapon'd everyone (destroying all the small constructs and allowing it to break the grapple), and the party's cleric managed to get in a lucky bestow curse, which blinded it.

It managed to paralyze me (and would've picked me up and flown away with me), but I used my Huge construct to do it instead, fleeing into the surrounding forest and instructing it to hide me under some leaf-litter while I manifested a bunch of Small constructs of my size and shape using a Craft check. The blinded dragon spent several rounds trying to figure out which construct was me, while they and the Huge construct grappled it and the rest of the party caught up and I waited there, technically helpless but meanwhile being more effective than the rest of the group would've been without me.

A few lucky hits by the party's paladin a few rounds later, and the dragon was dusted. The DM was a bit flummoxed, but it was, I think, the most fun I'd ever had in a campaign, ever.

Shapers aren't incredibly powerful, but if you utilize them correctly you'll rarely ever run out of power points, and your group will be considerably more powerful with you in it.
I love me some shaper.

[KaeltheAwesome]

Thanks for all the helpful advice guys! Its nice to meet such cool people on boards with just your first post and nearly all the posts helped expand my knowledge about psionics (excepting the bashing posts, not cool man just not cool)

Now to get cracking on some character sheets and see what works out best :)

[Lycanthromancer]

And how is the name "metapsionic" ironic?

That word you used... I don't think it means what you think it means.Maybe he misspelled "Meta-Ironic"?

[Sinfire Titan]

Maybe he misspelled "Meta-Ironic"?

That was bad...



And how is the name "metapsionic" ironic?

A lot of people don't know what Irony is. Perhaps he meant "redundant"?

[Lycanthromancer]

A lot of people don't know what Irony is. Perhaps he meant "redundant"?Or maybe he's like the rest of us who have no idea what he meant.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

How ironical.

[Sinfire Titan]

Or maybe he's like the rest of us who have no idea what he meant.

I'm sure he knew what he was saying, but he didn't know that his opinion was based on personal experience in ideal situations, not on actual numbers or statistics. One of these is a proper way to present an argument, the other is going to be dismissed as invalid if the supporting argument doesn't provide evidence to the contrary.


But you knew that all ready.

[Nero24200]

Just a word of warning, if your DM is leery about Psionics, I might avoid a DD focused one. Direct Damage is one of the few areas in which a Psion is straight-up better than it's core counterparts (even though DD spells generally aren't that great compared to other spells).

Just something to keep in mind if you don't want your DM thinking they're overpowering.

[ex cathedra]

Just a word of warning, if your DM is leery about Psionics, I might avoid a DD focused one. Direct Damage is one of the few areas in which a Psion is straight-up better than it's core counterparts (even though DD spells generally aren't that great compared to other spells).

Just something to keep in mind if you don't want your DM thinking they're overpowering.

The proper application of metamagic renders this untrue.

[Dacia Brabant]

The proper application of metamagic renders this untrue.

Not only that but you have to spend power points augmenting that Crystal Shard or Energy Stun into respectable damage range, whereas (most) damaging spells automatically scale with caster level free of charge. A psionic blaster can hit hard but he'll run out of juice quickly if he does that consistently and without mitigation.

[Optimystik]

Not to mention Prestige classes - arcane blasters have a ton of useful ones, psions... don't.

[Milskidasith]

Well in Gestalt Metamind is pretty amazing... well, it sucks for nine levels, but damn, a level 15 psion with 10 levels in metamind is just absurd.

[erikun]

Oh, I'd say Psions have a number of useful prestige classes. What they don't have are 10/10 progression prestige classes which give a bunch of bonus abilities on top of it.

The Psion Uncarnate, Slayer, and Thrallherd are all very good prestige classes, and all give up manifester levels in balance. Compare that to 90% of the wizard prestige classes, though.

[AshDesert]

Oh, I'd say Psions have a number of useful prestige classes. What they don't have are 10/10 progression prestige classes which give a bunch of bonus abilities on top of it.

The Psion Uncarnate, Slayer, and Thrallherd are all very good prestige classes, and all give up manifester levels in balance. Compare that to 90% of the wizard prestige classes, though.

Yeah, Loremaster set a pretty bad precedent... I've always liked that WotC decided not to have any 10/10 progression Psionic PrC's, but give a bunch of cool special abilities instead.

[Optimystik]

Well in Gestalt Metamind is pretty amazing... well, it sucks for nine levels, but damn, a level 15 psion with 10 levels in metamind is just absurd.

Gestalt is like Bailey's - makes things good by overpowering them. Case in point, Monk//Druid makes Monk awesome - says nothing about Monk's power level without it.


The Psion Uncarnate, Slayer, and Thrallherd are all very good prestige classes, and all give up manifester levels in balance. Compare that to 90% of the wizard prestige classes, though.

Uncarnate is awful. Yay, I just gave up 4 ML to be incorporeal all day. I sure hope I didn't need those 9th-level powers. Go me! Actually, worse than incorporeal, since they don't get Cha to AC like other incorporeal creatures do.

Slayer is decent as a gish. Thrallherd is an entire class meant to duplicate Leadership.

Furthermore, just because a class is 10/10 casting doesn't mean it's unbalanced. You can tradeoff other things besides casting progression without being overpowered, e.g. Archmage. Why didn't Psions get a PrC like that?

[AirGuitarGod32]

I'd like to interject that players who adore Archmage, WotC made Arch Psion, the same basic class. And as for those who like rogue, but want to play a psionic version, Lurk is actually a decent (though not anywhere near as good as rogue, but not as bad as Spellthief) and can take any prestige class, including Assassin and Black Flame Zealot. And the divine mind is a cleric knock-off

[Noodles2375]

I'm inclined to disagree about the Divine Mind. The cleric as a full progression caster is very powerful.

The Divine Mind is AWFUL. The class has no niche to fit into, learns a handful of powers very slowly, can't focus its stats, and can't really do anything particularly well.

The Divine Mind is not a cleric knock-off, it is a sort of odd Paladin knock-off without full BAB.

[AirGuitarGod32]

I'm inclined to disagree about the Divine Mind. The cleric as a full progression caster is very powerful.

The Divine Mind is AWFUL. The class has no niche to fit into, learns a handful of powers very slowly, can't focus its stats, and can't really do anything particularly well.

The Divine Mind is not a cleric knock-off, it is a sort of odd Paladin knock-off without full BAB.

Thanks for correcting me. I meant it gets "Domains" by trade. It sux overall anyways

[erikun]

Uncarnate is awful. Yay, I just gave up 4 ML to be incorporeal all day. I sure hope I didn't need those 9th-level powers. Go me! Actually, worse than incorporeal, since they don't get Cha to AC like other incorporeal creatures do.
Depends on what you're comparing it to. After all, no amount of special abilities will compare to a Psion throwing out Schismed, Quickened powers and then teleporting to their Genesis plane to recover all PP in one round.

One good thing about psionics is that lower level powers are still useful at higher levels, so lacking 9th level powers won't impare your ability to use lower level powers fully. (You'll want Practiced Manifester to spend PP up to your level, though.) I also think you are disreguarding incorporeal a bit too much. Complete immunity to physical attacks (including traps) and 50% miss chance to most others? Walking through walls? Immunity to listen checks?

And I'm not sure about the AC complaint. The biggest complaint against Soulknife is that their main class ability can be replecated with WBL equipment. What's wrong with wearing a +5 mithral chain shirt?


Furthermore, just because a class is 10/10 casting doesn't mean it's unbalanced. You can tradeoff other things besides casting progression without being overpowered, e.g. Archmage. Why didn't Psions get a PrC like that?
Depends on what you're comparing them too. 10/10 PrC are considered stronger than the base spellcasting classes, except Druid, which is why most people recomment for an (optimized) spellcaster to PrC out as soon as possible. Then again, psionics handle lost manifester levels better than spellcasting, as lower level powers are still useful later in their career.

Psionic PrC are more of a tradeoff - as you said, either 9th level powers or incorporeal bonuses. It pushes Psions closer to the "average" power level of all the classes.

And what does Archmage give up? One wizard feat for 5 unique abilities? Spending Spell Focus on two different schools?


And as for those who like rogue, but want to play a psionic version, Lurk is actually a decent (though not anywhere near as good as rogue, but not as bad as Spellthief) and can take any prestige class, including Assassin and Black Flame Zealot. And the divine mind is a cleric knock-off
I believe you meant to say Ardent, not Divine Mind. Also: Psychic Rogue and Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723a)

[AirGuitarGod32]

I believe you meant to say Ardent, not Divine Mind. Also: Psychic Rogue and Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723a)

yeah. my bad. lol. Meant one thing and said another.

[Optimystik]

Depends on what you're comparing it to. After all, no amount of special abilities will compare to a Psion throwing out Schismed, Quickened powers and then teleporting to their Genesis plane to recover all PP in one round.

I'm comparing it to any full caster that gets 9th-level abilties, which are always more useful than just being able to walk through walls with your gear intact. As a point of reference, Ghostform is a level 8 spell.


One good thing about psionics is that lower level powers are still useful at higher levels, so lacking 9th level powers won't impare your ability to use lower level powers fully.

The same is true for magic - many lower-level spells remain useful throughout your career. Polymorph, Glitterdust, Phantom Steed, Dimension Door, Enervation... Psionics hasn't cornered that particular market, even with augmentations.

In fact, magic stays even more useful, due to DC and other effects scaling automatically, instead of just duration.


I also think you are disreguarding incorporeal a bit too much. Complete immunity to physical attacks (including traps) and 50% miss chance to most others? Walking through walls? Immunity to listen checks?

You can gain all of those things without gimping your manifester progression. Etherealness is a 9th level power. Time Hop a door. Amorpha up some concealment. Phase door through the wall. And that's not even going into the discipline powers.


Depends on what you're comparing them too. 10/10 PrC are considered stronger than the base spellcasting classes, except Druid, which is why most people recomment for an (optimized) spellcaster to PrC out as soon as possible. Then again, psionics handle lost manifester levels better than spellcasting, as lower level powers are still useful later in their career.

Depends on the class. Sorcerer is the only one that requires you to "PrC out as soon as possible" as they get nothing past first level. The same is not true for Wizard, Cleric, Beguiler, Dread Necro, Druid etc.


And what does Archmage give up? One wizard feat for 5 unique abilities? Spending Spell Focus on two different schools?

Spell slots - a nice middle ground between getting features for free (like Planar Shepherd does) and losing caster levels.


I'd like to interject that players who adore Archmage, WotC made Arch Psion, the same basic class.

True, but that was in Mind's Eye, their common place to fix their psionic foibles. It was Mind's Eye that finally gave Lurks Trapfinding, made the Soulknife effective at last by tacking it on to the Psywar, and gave us a Psychic Assassin. There was no reason for the XPH designers not to realize that the PrCs that we were given in the actual supplement were subpar.

In fact, the core PrC Loremaster (assuming you allow metapsionics to take the place of metamagic for entry purposes) is stronger for a Psion than just about every PrC in XPH.

[Lycanthromancer]

Depends on what you're comparing it to. After all, no amount of special abilities will compare to a Psion throwing out Schismed, Quickened powers and then teleporting to their Genesis plane to recover all PP in one round.Psionic genesis doesn't allow you to mess with time, unlike the arcane and divine versions.

[tyckspoon]

I just wanted to point out that psionic focus lasts until you use it, or maybe until you sleep. The point is, you can just gain your focus in the morning or after a fight instead of trying to do it right before. This way, you don't even need Psionic Meditation unless you're planning on expending your focus more than once per fight.

I have a really hard time thinking of a situation where you would be spending focus and not want to do it more than once in a fight. Generally you either have abilities that depend on being focused (Up The Walls feat, Slayer PrC's Mind Blank effect) or core combat tricks that require you to expend focus (metapsionics, Overchannel, Deep Impact.) In the first situation you just don't spend focus. In the second, you're spending it all the time, and getting it back efficiently is very important. You may also have both, in which case you want to be able to recover efficiently because you want to make sure your while-focused abilities are active on the enemies' turn. Especially if they happen to form a central part of your defensive suite.

[Devils_Advocate]

That should be interesting then, considering my usual DM loves sorcs to death and considers them the coolest class evar.
Well, then, he should love psions, who are even more sorcerer-like than sorcerers.

They're also more wizard-like than sorcerers. They manage this by being extremely awesome. :smallcool:

As a psionicist, I'm pimp as hell.