PDA

View Full Version : Soulknife debate



Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-26, 10:34 PM
The post that inspired this, to avoid a derail:
To Stoopidtallkid: {Scrubbed} I do actually enjoy the soulknife and when its run correctly, it can go toe to toe with any melee char. and don't argue. A maug soulknife can easilly stand against a maug ranger from Complete Warrior.I doubt that. The Soulknife gets nothing that a normal meleer doesn't. It's primary feature, the Mind Blade, is weaker than what a meleer can get with his raw cash and a simple buff. It gets fewer options for enchanting the MB, the few class features it gets are most of the time weaker than what a Fighter can get from feats. I don't see a single redeeming feature to the class.

arguskos
2009-11-26, 10:43 PM
Wasn't Soulknife made into a feat in Complete Psionic? One that actually was pretty good, IIRC.

If so, you could just tack Soulknife onto a fighter and make it MUCH better than the real class. >_>

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 10:47 PM
Alright then... Let's play..

Soulknife's exclusive prestige class: Soul bow has the advantage of utilizing a ranged aspect of the mind Blade

PLUS, if one gestalts or multiclasses with fighter, you can double stack weapon focus and improved crit trees. NO OTHER class can accomplish this. The Soulknife is a multiclass hero. It can make a wizard actually able to fend off the orc in his grill, it can make a samurai iaijutsu master have a truly surprising attack, and gives a rogue a nice weapon to strike with. Now granted, by itself, yes, soulknife isn't the UBER broken class, but it plays well and is satasfying to Star Wars fans who run a D&D 3.5 gane and want a lightsaber

RagnaroksChosen
2009-11-26, 10:49 PM
Wasn't Soulknife made into a feat in Complete Psionic? One that actually was pretty good, IIRC.

If so, you could just tack Soulknife onto a fighter and make it MUCH better than the real class. >_>

I think it realy depends on the campain in a high rp/combat game that deals with subterfuge i think it helps... like assasination heavy games... as they can apear unarmed... but other then that that theres not alot... realy only good thing is soulbow...

though in ebberon there are some nice kalashtar stuff that has to do with soulknives.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-26, 10:55 PM
Alright then... Let's play..

Soulknife's exclusive prestige class: Soul bow has the advantage of utilizing a ranged aspect of the mind BladeSoulbow is awesome, yes. However it's basically the only way to make the Soulknife usable, which says nothing about the base power of the class, and it's still weaker than an Archivist Archer.
PLUS, if one gestalts or multiclasses with fighter, you can double stack weapon focus and improved crit trees. NO OTHER class can accomplish this.No other class wants to. The Wep Focus tree is widly regarded as a massive trap, and I can't find any reference to boosting criticals on the Soulknife page.
The Soulknife is a multiclass hero. It can make a wizard actually able to fend off the orc in his grill, it can make a samurai iaijutsu master have a truly surprising attack, and gives a rogue a nice weapon to strike with. Now granted, by itself, yes, soulknife isn't the UBER broken class, but it plays well and is satasfying to Star Wars fans who run a D&D 3.5 gane and want a lightsaberI can't figure out how any of those cases aren't better served by buying a normal weapon. Even for concealment, Absorb Weapon or similar is good enough.

For a Lightsaber, just play a Glaivelock or anyone with a Brilliant Energy weapon.

Anyr
2009-11-26, 10:57 PM
Alright then... Let's play..

Soulknife's exclusive prestige class: Soul bow has the advantage of utilizing a ranged aspect of the mind Blade

PLUS, if one gestalts or multiclasses with fighter, you can double stack weapon focus and improved crit trees. NO OTHER class can accomplish this. The Soulknife is a multiclass hero. It can make a wizard actually able to fend off the orc in his grill, it can make a samurai iaijutsu master have a truly surprising attack, and gives a rogue a nice weapon to strike with. Now granted, by itself, yes, soulknife isn't the UBER broken class, but it plays well and is satasfying to Star Wars fans who run a D&D 3.5 gane and want a lightsaber

You seem to be using gestalt as an argument a great deal. While some groups do use this option, it's still an uncommon optional rule which changes a lot of basic assumptions. Unless it's explicitly stated that gestalt rules are in effect for an exercise, it should usually be assumed that they're not. Even if they are, using the Soulknife grants a lot less benefit than gestalting Warblade or many other classes.

Without gestalt, none of the benefits that you've listed are unique to the Soulknife. A Fighter with a bit of spare cash can buy a weapon which is stronger than the Soulknife's mind blade in almost every way. Is it really worth taking an entire class just to gain a glowing weapon which can't be disarmed?

Eldariel
2009-11-26, 10:58 PM
I think it realy depends on the campain in a high rp/combat game that deals with subterfuge i think it helps... like assasination heavy games... as they can apear unarmed... but other then that that theres not alot... realy only good thing is soulbow...

though in ebberon there are some nice kalashtar stuff that has to do with soulknives.

Concealing weapons is only a Sleight of Hand check; easy for Rogues. Also, Superior Unarmed Strike sees to everyone having a weapon at all times.

@Argus: Actually, it's an Alternative Class Feature for Psychic Warrior on Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) here.


And for Lightsaber...no, Lightsaber isn't a weapon you morph yourself. Try Brilliant Energy Sword or something to that effect.

Talbot
2009-11-26, 10:58 PM
Alright then... Let's play..

Soulknife's exclusive prestige class: Soul bow has the advantage of utilizing a ranged aspect of the mind Blade

PLUS, if one gestalts or multiclasses with fighter, you can double stack weapon focus and improved crit trees. NO OTHER class can accomplish this. The Soulknife is a multiclass hero. It can make a wizard actually able to fend off the orc in his grill, it can make a samurai iaijutsu master have a truly surprising attack, and gives a rogue a nice weapon to strike with. Now granted, by itself, yes, soulknife isn't the UBER broken class, but it plays well and is satasfying to Star Wars fans who run a D&D 3.5 gane and want a lightsaber

I play a Soul Knife. I like Soul Knives. One of my favorite classes.

That being said? It's not that great. If it weren't so feat starved, or if it got full base attack, or if it had some way of improving its action economy, or if there were some way to get you psionic focus and your psychic strike to recharge faster without burning feats... yeah, it could be awesome. As it is, it can be great for a specific purpose (say, making it an Ilumine Soul and killing undead, making a Lucky Soulbow and re-rolling every miss), but it's never going to be particularly versatile or powerful overall.

As for multi-classing it... ehhhhhh.... kinda. Multiclassed with fighter, yes, it can be pretty badass, but you're going to end up sacrificing damage and versatility (by way of enhancements you won't get) for feats, HP, and BAB, and the Soul Knife is already pretty damage starved. The "Practiced Mindblade" feat mitigates this somewhat, but every level you take in fighter is a level you aren't taking in Soulknife/Soulbow/Ilumine Soul, which makes your mindblade (you know, the main feature of being a Soulknife) less effective overall.

It is, however, great for Gestalt. With pretty much any class.

awa
2009-11-26, 10:59 PM
If the class needs to multi class or prestige class to be viable does that make it a good class?
And how is it stacking improved critical by multi classing into fighter?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 11:07 PM
Admittedly, yes. However, it is a class that I personally enjoy for the flavor of the Soulknife. I admit, yes, without Gestalt, soulknife is reduced, but it can still be a second-line fighter or a bodyguard to a wizard. But in multiclassing the soulknife gains a substantial boost. In fighter, one gains the bonus feats, in arcane, one gains spells, in divine, one gains the same, ect.

One can see that the soulknife is a medium for multiclassing easily

Talbot
2009-11-26, 11:11 PM
This-


Admittedly, yes. However, it is a class that I personally enjoy for the flavor of the Soulknife. I admit, yes, without Gestalt, soulknife is reduced, but it can still be a second-line fighter or a bodyguard to a wizard. But in multiclassing the soulknife gains a substantial boost. In fighter, one gains the bonus feats, in arcane, one gains spells, in divine, one gains the same, ect.

One can see that the soulknife is a medium for multiclassing easily

-seems to disagree with this:


I do actually enjoy the soulknife and when its run correctly, it can go toe to toe with any melee char. and don't argue. A maug soulknife can easilly stand against a maug ranger from Complete Warrior.

How can a "second line fighter" go "toe to toe" with "any melee char"? Again, I love Soulknife, but assuming roughly equal players on either side, Fighter/Swordsage/Duskblade/Warblade/etc are going to win that fight more often than not.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-26, 11:12 PM
One can see that the soulknife is a medium for multiclassing easilyHow does it gain multiclassing? If you dip it, you're basically gaining a non-magical shortsword that you can keep in prison. That's rather weak. If you dip out of Soulknife, your already-weak weapon loses even more ground. I don't see the benefit.

The flavor is easy, you can get that from half a dozen classes.

Meek
2009-11-26, 11:13 PM
So let me get this straight.

The Soulknife is awesome because everyone loves to multiclass into a 3/4 BAB class, especially melee fighters. The one trick you apparently want from this unholy union is to "double stack" terrible feats that you can't really double stack, for which you're opting to take Fighter levels. The other power which they would derive here is the ability to crap a magic weapon out of thin air because all the good powers of the class are like 10 levels away and you'd never get there because you took a bunch of Fighter levels for the feats you're trying to "double stack." Huh.

Oh but we can also multiclass into classes with spells too. Because spells are awesome and adding them to the awesome that is the Soulknife double stacks awesome doesn't it. Though I don't know what a Druid or a Cleric or a Wizard wants with a mind blade, other than doing little middle finger gestures with it and perhaps juggling. But hey we have a melee weapon now don't we, so maybe we can go into Eldritch Knight or something, and we'd be like Luke Skywalker. If we ever get a spell level high enough for Telekinesis anyway.

PinkysBrain
2009-11-26, 11:21 PM
In fighter, one gains the bonus feats, in arcane, one gains spells, in divine, one gains the same, ect.
The problem is not so much in what the soulknife gains, but what those other classes lose by taking soulknife levels.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-26, 11:26 PM
good point. I meant that a solo soulknife is a bodyguard, while a multiclass/gestalt is frontline

Anyr
2009-11-26, 11:30 PM
good point. I meant that a solo soulknife is a bodyguard, while a multiclass/gestalt is frontline

What makes a multiclass Soulknife a better front line combatant than a single-classed Fighter/Swordsage/Warblade/etc? Multiclassing with Soulknife simply dilutes the benefits gained from the other class, while granting only minor boons which don't scale unless more Soulknife levels are taken. Why should someone want to take any Soulknife levels in combination with one of these classes?

mikeloop86
2009-11-26, 11:34 PM
@Argus: Actually, it's an Alternative Class Feature for Psychic Warrior on Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) here.


THIS! That mind's eye article showed just how worthless the Soulknife is when a Psychic warrior can choose to give up 1 feat, and effectively gain everything a Soulknife has to offer.

But not just that, Soulbound Weapon Psychic Warriors get a better deal, cause they get to actually CHOOSE what kind of weapon they pick, not get stuck with a shortsword for the first five levels of the game.

And then they get all the cool benefits (IE: Actual Psionic Powers, the reason you'd play a Psionic class) of being a PsyWar, a class that doesn't suck.

Hail to thee o crappy Soulknife, you are amazing in how many ways you can be replaced and forgotten.

awa
2009-11-26, 11:36 PM
The soulknifes abbilities don't seem like their useful at all for multi classing and
unless i'm mistaken they don't have any abbilities that make them particularly good at being a body guard or at least not any better then any other class with a decent hit die willing to stand in front of the wizard wouldn't a barbarian with their higher hit points or a chain fighter with their ability to disrupt movement make better body guards..

erikun
2009-11-27, 12:05 AM
The biggest complaint against the Soulknife is that its main class feature - the soulknife - is easy replicated by the WBL every class has access to. There's also the problem of needed to refocus between attacks, giving the Soulknife the same problems as an Improved Feint Rogue. Well, without the Trapfinding ability.

Is it bad? Well, it's not terrible. Like the monk, the soulknife can lose all his equipment and still be competent. He can spend his WBL on stat boosters rather than weapon upgrades, and he never has to worry about breaking, dropping, or having his weapon stolen. (Something many critics seem to ignore.)

The problems: You can't dual wield Psychic Strike, or use it in itterative attacks, so they can't use the benefits a rogue gets from flanking and dual-weilding. 90+% of the time, everyone will have all their equipment, making the never-loose-weapon benefit not meaningful. The soulknife basically needs to multiclass into soulbow to be useful, and when a base class needs a specific prestige class, there is an issue.

Of course, this considers a standard game. If your party consists of a fighter, soulknife, monk, and (core) bard, then the problems with the soulknife aren't as big of a deal. When you try comparing the soulknife to a wizard, cleric, or even Psychic Warrior, then you begin seeing where the soulknife starts lacking.

Sliver
2009-11-27, 12:07 AM
Lets not argue that a class is good because it gains stuff from multiclassing or gestalting, or it is a great class because you like it due to fluff reasons. Those won't convince anyone that the class is good. This already happened before and didn't end well..

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-27, 12:29 AM
(snip)

The problems: You can't dual wield Psychic Strike, or use it in itterative attacks, so they can't use the benefits a rogue gets from flanking and dual-weilding.

(snip)

Emphasis mine. It was my understanding that if you had your mind-blade split into two short-swords that you could hold a psychic strike in each one. It's not a hugely useful detail, since you have to charge each one seperately and the point on iterative attacks stands, but it is worth mentioning IMHO.

erikun
2009-11-27, 12:40 AM
Emphasis mine. It was my understanding that if you had your mind-blade split into two short-swords that you could hold a psychic strike in each one. It's not a hugely useful detail, since you have to charge each one seperately and the point on iterative attacks stands, but it is worth mentioning IMHO.
Er, my mistake. You can focus your psychic strike through both blades, and can use them both on the same turn. The problem occurs next turn, when you need a move action to refocus the psychic strike and only have a standard action to attack.

Sure, you could spend your move action and your standard action to focus, and then attack next turn. However, you have the same problem - only averaging one psychic strike per turn.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-27, 01:02 AM
I've always thought of the psychic strike, and its extension knife to the soul, as obvious ambush tools. Something to take a big chunk out of one enemy at the beginning of combat and to be ignored for most of the rest of the fight. If you blast the Fighter's charisma with a pair of Knife to the soul strikes while he's flat footed, you'll probably drop him on the spot. The whole class really smacks of guerrilla combat. Hide and Move silently to maneuver around the enemy, while you ping them with psychic strikes ala sniping attacks.

Anyr
2009-11-27, 01:07 AM
I've always thought of the psychic strike, and its extension knife to the soul, as obvious ambush tools. Something to take a big chunk out of one enemy at the beginning of combat and to be ignored for most of the rest of the fight. If you blast the Fighter's charisma with a pair of Knife to the soul strikes while he's flat footed, you'll probably drop him on the spot.

13th or higher level Fighters don't tend to have only 6 Charisma. It's also fairly likely that they will have acquired some protection from Mind Affecting attacks by that point, thus rendering them immune to the strike entirely. For an ability that requires so much investment, Knife to the Soul doesn't compare well to its equivalents in other classes.

Optimystik
2009-11-27, 01:13 AM
If you want to be a Jedi(Sith), be a Glaivelock.

If you want "weapons out of thin air" be a Totemist.

If you want a melee class with a weak fort save and poor BAB, as well as a psionic class with no powers, Soulknife is for you!

lesser_minion
2009-11-27, 01:27 AM
I suspect that the "no powers" decision was an intentional part of the class, and exists to facilitate refluffing.

However, yes, the soulknife as written is by no means hot. From a design perspective, it doesn't even make sense - the soulknife does not have enough of an identity to be a character class.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-27, 01:30 AM
Okay, so it's not great against PC classes, what about your average magical beast? Say a hydra, an otherwise cr appropriate encounter for a 13th level soulknife that gives melee types a hard time, 3 successful knife to the soul attacks aimed at its cha, BAM!! no more hydra.

Optimystik
2009-11-27, 01:31 AM
I suspect that the "no powers" decision was an intentional part of the class, and exists to facilitate refluffing.

Of course it was intentional. The Truenamer's "Law of Resistance" was no doubt also intentional.

But I find it difficult to be forgiving of designers that ruin the viability of a class for fluff's sake.

lesser_minion
2009-11-27, 01:36 AM
Of course it was intentional. The Truenamer's "Law of Resistance" was no doubt also intentional.

But I find it difficult to be forgiving of designers that ruin the viability of a class for fluff's sake.

The Law of Resistance wasn't fluff-related at all. It made no sense in fluff. It was an attempt to adhere to a design principle.

The design issue with the soulknife is entirely tied to its fluff - the soulknife doesn't have enough of an identity to be a class.

Adding powers would actually make the soulknife as it stands worse by wrecking what little identity it has.

If you want a soulknife with powers, use the psychic warrior variant.

Kylarra
2009-11-27, 01:42 AM
Okay, so it's not great against PC classes, what about your average magical beast? Say a hydra, an otherwise cr appropriate encounter for a 13th level soulknife that gives melee types a hard time, 3 successful knife to the soul attacks aimed at its cha, BAM!! no more hydra.I'm unconvinced. Giving up your move action for each charge means that your monster needs to be standing still or staying within a 5' step. 3/4 BAB means your hitrate isn't going to be spectacular to begin with. Your mindblade will only be a +2 weapon at that point as well.

Throw mindblade is good for the first shot, but after that you can't charge your mindblade (move action) and psychic strike (another move action) so.. .yeah.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-27, 01:45 AM
Okay, so it's not great against PC classes, what about your average magical beast? Say a hydra, an otherwise cr appropriate encounter that gives melee types a hard time, 3 successful knife to the soul attacks aimed at its cha, BAM!! no more hydra.Assuming we're talking a 12-headed Cyrohydra for CR 11, 129 HP, 22 AC.
Enlarged Half-orc Barbarian 11. Str of 32(18+2[levels]+8[Rage]+2[item]+2[Enlarge]). +3 Furious Glaive. Power Attacks for 9. Charging Leap Attack Pounce with Boots of Speed. Attack routine is +20/+20/+15/+10, each dealing 82 damage per hit, you miss on a 1/1/6/11. One round, unoptimized.

The Soulknife takes 3 rounds to do that, assuming all hit, and assuming the Hydra doesn't eat him.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-27, 01:46 AM
sorry, I meant a 12 headed pyro-hydra. at lvl 13 a soulknife has 3 dice of psychic strike and has been throwing the thing since level 2. So in three rounds he drops the hydra, if he's fighting solo. At lvl 4 with the regular 5 headed hydra he's not so spectacular, but at level 4 what class is?

lesser_minion
2009-11-27, 01:46 AM
Assuming we're talking a 12-headed Cyrohydra for CR 11, 129 HP, 22 AC.
Enlarged Half-orc Barbarian 11. Str of 32(18+2[levels]+8[Rage]+2[item]+2[Enlarge]). +3 Furious Glaive. Power Attacks for 9. Charging Leap Attack Pounce with Boots of Speed. Attack routine is +20/+20/+15/+10, each dealing 82 damage per hit, you miss on a 1/1/6/11. One round, unoptimized.

The Soulknife takes 3 rounds to do that, assuming all hit, and assuming the Hydra doesn't eat him.

Closer to six rounds. I'm pretty sure the soulknife spends half his time moving instead of charging himself up, even with throw mind blade.

Optimystik
2009-11-27, 01:48 AM
Okay, so it's not great against PC classes, what about your average magical beast? Say a hydra, an otherwise cr appropriate encounter that gives melee types a hard time, 3 successful knife to the soul attacks aimed at its cha, BAM!! no more hydra.

Well, first he has to hit the Hydra three times - not a sure thing with medium BAB. Second, he has to imbue his Mind Blade with psychic strike before he can use KttS, each time burning a move action to do so, so no full attack. Lets hope the hydra doesn't move either. If the hydra grapples him, he now takes penalties to his attack on top of his already mediocre attack bonus.


The Law of Resistance wasn't fluff-related at all. It made no sense in fluff. It was an attempt to adhere to a design principle.

1) Anything can make sense in fluff. It's fluff - mutable by definition.

2) The Law of Resistance was explained in fluff terms, making it fluff-related by definition.

3) The point was that making something intentional does not excuse it if it makes a class nigh unplayable.


The design issue with the soulknife is entirely tied to its fluff - the soulknife has no identity - adding powers doesn't help, it just turns it into a variant psychic warrior.

If you want a soulknife with powers, use the psychic warrior variant.

That's a contradictory statement. If a soulknife's design is entirely tied to its fluff, why did Wizards turn around and effectively make a soulknife with powers? Clearly the tie is not as strong in their minds as it is in yours.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-27, 01:49 AM
sorry, I meant a 12 headed pyro-hydra. at lvl 13 a soulknife has 3 dice of psychic strike and has been throwing the thing since level 2. So in three rounds he drops the hydra, if he's fighting solo. At lvl 4 with the regular 5 headed hydra he's not so spectacular, but at level 4 what class is?Did you miss my post? I beat the 12-headed hydra solo with a level 11 Barb in one round. All I needed from the party was 2 buffs, both of which can be done beforehand. Even losing those isn't a major issue, just makes the numbers slightly smaller.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-27, 01:50 AM
I think I can one shot a cryohydra with either a sorcerer or a wizard. For the record.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-27, 01:52 AM
I think I can one shot a cryohydra with either a sorcerer or a wizard. For the record.That's nothing. If I really wanted to be impressive, I'd do it with a Monk. Granted, it would be RAW-shakey, require 11th level, winning Initiative, and being a Catfolk, but I'm pretty sure it can be done.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-27, 01:54 AM
I wasn't saying it for your benefit!

lesser_minion
2009-11-27, 01:57 AM
That's a contradictory statement. If a soulknife's design is entirely tied to its fluff, why did Wizards turn around and effectively make a soulknife with powers? Clearly the tie is not as strong in their minds as it is in yours.

Not so.

The 'identity' of a class is the piece of fluff which implies and explains the collection of benefits given to the class, at the same time establishing the class as being distinct enough from other character classes to justify its existence.

The soulknife's identity is "yanks sword out of mind". Adding powers isn't within the scope of that, and effectively turns it into a psychic warrior variant. It isn't an appropriate solution to the problem, because you've just destroyed the class' identity.

The real issue is that the soulknife's identity is inappropriate for a base class

That can be resolved by either expanding the identity somehow (e.g. allowing the soulknife character to make things that aren't weapons) so that it can be used for a character class, or by making the soulknife into a feat tree, spell, variant, prestige class, or psionic power.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-27, 02:11 AM
Assuming we're talking a 12-headed Cyrohydra for CR 11, 129 HP, 22 AC.
Enlarged Half-orc Barbarian 11. Str of 32(18+2[levels]+8[Rage]+2[item]+2[Enlarge]). +3 Furious Glaive. Power Attacks for 9. Charging Leap Attack Pounce with Boots of Speed. Attack routine is +20/+20/+15/+10, each dealing 82 damage per hit, you miss on a 1/1/6/11. One round, unoptimized.

The Soulknife takes 3 rounds to do that, assuming all hit, and assuming the Hydra doesn't eat him.

Um... your numbers look a little funny there... lemme see if I understand correctly.

Str 18
Plus 6 for improved rage
Plus 2 for gauntlets of Ogre power
plus 2 for the lvl 4 and lvl 8 ability bumps
plus 2 for enlarge person
Plus 2 for the reckless rage feat (?)
gets us to str 32.

Bab 13
plus 11 for str
Plus 3 for weapon enhancement
plus 2 for a charge
plus 1 for haste
minus 1 for size
minus 9 (?) for power attack
gets to-hit 20.

str 16
plus 3 weapon enhancement
plus 7 for a large glaive
plus 27 for the leap attack (?)
gets 54 average damage?

I'm not sure where to find the furious enhancement for the glaive, but if it doesn't give a boost to power attack, then it might take more than one charge, which you might not be able to make through the hydra's marshy home anyway. Besides, how is it not optimal to assume that you've been the subject of enlarge person before combat's begun? Nevermind reckless rage and leap attack? Besides, it's my own mistake to aim at the CHA of a creature with animal intelligence :smalltongue: My soulknife can drop the booger with one attack :smallredface:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-27, 02:22 AM
Um... your numbers look a little funny there... lemme see if I understand correctly.

Str 18
Plus 6 for improved rage
Plus 2 for gauntlets of Ogre power
plus 2 for the lvl 4 and lvl 8 ability bumps
plus 2 for enlarge person
Plus 2 for the reckless rage feat (?)
gets us to str 32.

Bab 13
plus 11 for str
Plus 3 for weapon enhancement
plus 2 for a charge
plus 1 for haste
minus 1 for size
minus 9 (?) for power attack
gets to-hit 20.

str 16
plus 3 weapon enhancement
plus 4.5 for a glaive
plus 27 for the leap attack (?)
gets 50.5 average damage?

I'm not sure where to find the furious enhancement for the glaive, but if it doesn't give a boost to power attack, then it might take more than one charge, which you might not be able to make through the hydra's marshy home anyway. Besides, how is it not optimal to assume that you've been the subject of enlarge person before combat's begun? Nevermind reckless rage and leap attack? Besides, it's my own mistake to aim at the CHA of a creature with animal intelligence :smalltongue: My soulknife can drop the booger with one attack :smallredface:The last +2 on the weapon is from Furious, which boost your rage slightly. not great, but decent, and good enough for my purposes. The final damage was an error, sorry. Glaive deals 7, not 4.5. PA+LA adds 36, not 27(with Leap Attack also allowing you to ignore terrain). 62 damage, so 3 of the blows need to hit rather than 2. Worse than I'd originally figured. I may need to track down a weapon that's actually decent.

It's not optimal because I ignored any of the dozen things that could be boosting the charge, like a single level of Ranger for Rhino's Rush, or going mounted combat+lance for*3 damage at the cost of losing Leap Attack, or the Shock Trooper feat that would allow ne to PA for full, or basically anything that I haven't seen used IRL.

lesser_minion
2009-11-27, 02:23 AM
I'm not sure where to find the furious enhancement for the glaive, but if it doesn't give a boost to power attack, then it might take more than one charge, which you might not be able to make through the hydra's marshy home anyway. Besides, how is it not optimal to assume that you've been the subject of enlarge person before combat's begun? Nevermind reckless rage and leap attack? Besides, it's my own mistake to aim at the CHA of a creature with animal intelligence :smalltongue: My soulknife can drop the booger with one attack :smallredface:

162 damage will take the hydra out just as easily as 246.

The soulknife will be delivering far fewer attacks with a far smaller chance of hitting, and 162 hitpoint damage is far more widely applicable than 3 intelligence damage (although the int damage is a decent debuff to certain opponents).

There are also a lot of other ways to bring 3 intelligence damage to bear on a hydra.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-27, 02:26 AM
Worse than I'd originally figured. I may need to track down a weapon that's actually decent.
Valorious.


It's not optimal because I ignored any of the dozen things that could be boosting the charge, like a single level of Ranger for Rhino's Rush
That's Paladin.


or going mounted combat+lance for*3 damage at the cost of losing Leap Attack, or the Shock Trooper feat that would allow ne to PA for full, or basically anything that I haven't seen used IRL.

And you left out the feat Battle Jump.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-27, 02:30 AM
That's Paladin.And Ranger. it's also on the Wrath Domain list, so I could technically of gone Cleric and added in both that and things like Divine Might.

I also hate playing melee, so I'm not up on all the tricks.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-27, 02:31 AM
that still doesn't change the fact that a lvl 13 soulknife can drop it with one successful attack with KttS against its int. Of course that fact also makes the hydra a much poorer example than I intended...... Doesn't leap attack make your two-handed power attack do triple normal PA damage?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-27, 02:34 AM
that still doesn't change the fact that a lvl 13 soulknife can drop it with one successful attack with KttS against its int. Of course that fact also makes the hydra a much poorer example than I intended......Your point was that the soulknife can kill something that ordinary melee has trouble with. My point was that you picked an example that doesn't trouble ordinary melee. Want to try something else, see how the Soulknife compares to a fairly standard Swordsage build?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-27, 02:34 AM
that still doesn't change the fact that a lvl 13 soulknife can drop it with one successful attack with KttS against its int. Of course that fact also makes the hydra a much poorer example than I intended...... Doesn't leap attack make your two-handed power attack do triple normal PA damage?

Of course, you realize that a 3rd level wizard beats your Soulknife because he gets Ray of Stupidity as a 2nd level spell?

awa
2009-11-27, 02:34 AM
the knife to the soul is useful good for dropping certain creatures mostly those with low intelligence but that's really it's only trick that's any use and he gets it rather late.

theirs no point comparing the soul knife with a full caster there in a diffrent league lets stick the the melee classes

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-27, 02:40 AM
I'd actually love to delve this subject further, but unfortunately I've got work tomorrow, so I've gotta get to bed. As for your wizard, pharaoh, of course he could stomp the snot out of both the barb and the souknife. He could take them both at the same time because wizards are just that badass. My point was that in an environment of PC's versus Monsters the soulknife doesn't do so horribly. It's certainly not unplayable, it just requires a fresh look at things.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-27, 02:45 AM
My point was that in an environment of PC's versus Monsters the soulknife doesn't do so horribly. It's certainly not unplayable, it just requires a fresh look at things.

vs Monsters with low mental scores. You failed to qualify an important point.

Sliver
2009-11-27, 02:49 AM
My point was that in an environment of PC's versus Monsters the soulknife doesn't do so horribly. It's certainly not unplayable, it just requires a fresh look at things.

Sometimes people want to play something somewhat strong. "Not unplayable" is not a strong argument for a class.

Optimystik
2009-11-27, 03:51 AM
Not so.

The 'identity' of a class is the piece of fluff which implies and explains the collection of benefits given to the class, at the same time establishing the class as being distinct enough from other character classes to justify its existence.

The soulknife's identity is "yanks sword out of mind". Adding powers isn't within the scope of that, and effectively turns it into a psychic warrior variant. It isn't an appropriate solution to the problem, because you've just destroyed the class' identity.

The real issue is that the soulknife's identity is inappropriate for a base class

That can be resolved by either expanding the identity somehow (e.g. allowing the soulknife character to make things that aren't weapons) so that it can be used for a character class, or by making the soulknife into a feat tree, spell, variant, prestige class, or psionic power.

I agree with everything you've just said. And it seems to me that they've resolved the issue, by making Soulknife into basically a variant of Psywar. So why are we arguing?

lesser_minion
2009-11-27, 04:58 AM
I agree with everything you've just said. And it seems to me that they've resolved the issue, by making Soulknife into basically a variant of Psywar. So why are we arguing?

I think I just expressed myself badly the first time around. Sorry about that.

FMArthur
2009-11-27, 09:39 AM
I'd actually love to delve this subject further, but unfortunately I've got work tomorrow, so I've gotta get to bed. As for your wizard, pharaoh, of course he could stomp the snot out of both the barb and the souknife. He could take them both at the same time because wizards are just that badass. My point was that in an environment of PC's versus Monsters the soulknife doesn't do so horribly. It's certainly not unplayable, it just requires a fresh look at things.

You could say the same for any NPC class (well, except Adepts, because they're better). The problem you're failing to see here is that the Soulknife is entirely outclassed by better melee options. Nobody's saying it's impossible to get anything done as a Soulknife. The huge issue is that everyone does it better.

Coming up with examples where a Soulknife can overcome a challenge is a useless endeavor in this discussion. A commoner can be built well enough to handle simple challenges. That has nothing to do with whether or not it is ever a good idea to play a commoner - it simply has less of everything than every other class. Soulknives get the dubious honor of having less than every other melee class and nothing special to show for it. Their only distinguishing feature, the only thing they can do that cannot be done by every single one of its fellow melee classes, is get into Soulbow.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-27, 02:06 PM
Sometimes people want to play something somewhat strong. "Not unplayable" is not a strong argument for a class.

This is true. The problem here is the post that started this thread declared the Soulknife on par with a Tier 4 Class with a Race that has a high LA (and absurd stats for a melee character). The main power is coming from the race, not the class. The other problem is that anyone can optimize a class to the point where it can break a campaign (anyone can pull Pun-Pun). That doesn't make it a good class, it means you are a good optimizer.


However, the poster I'm referring to has shown a lack of optimization skill, so moot point. Just to reiterate, I agree with your post. I'm just expanding on it.

Draxar
2009-11-27, 03:38 PM
My GM has upgraded Soulknife to a full BAB class. He's also expanded Shape Soulblade to either give you any one melee weapon you're not proficient in, or all the ones that you are.

I'm doing okay with my one, though the other characters are not particularly optimised.

Melamoto
2009-11-27, 03:50 PM
The Soulknife gets some vast improvements with the 3rd party supplement "The Mind Unveiled" and DR 341. Some useful information, and an awesome alternate class, can be found here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872658/The_Soulknife_Handbook).

KaeltheAwesome
2009-11-27, 04:19 PM
The most amusing thing to me, is if you even just compare the soulknife with other classes from the XPH, the above hydra fight is just plain easier as another class.

For example, a shaper psion could just create constructs to take care of the hydra, while he goes and has some tea and cookies on the sidelines.

a psychic warrior would just beat the tar out of it and a wilder has actual psionic powers.

Overall, each of those base classes have overall more effectiveness to me as well as actually providing psionic powers instead of a dinky little knife that glows. Which a psion could probably fabricate somehow *ponders*

Pardon if my post seems silly, its just that soulknife doesn't scream out "Use me!" He doesn't have any features that are useful overall, because his knife is useful in situations where no one else has a weapon and the monk already covers that territory and better. And the monk gets SR to boot :/

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-27, 04:26 PM
Pardon if my post seems silly, its just that soulknife doesn't scream out "Use me!" He doesn't have any features that are useful overall, because his knife is useful in situations where no one else has a weapon and the monk already covers that territory and better. And the monk gets SR to boot :/

And the Incarnate/Totemist can beat the tar out of both of them in the same situation. Oh, and both of those classes have the highest SR this side of a full caster, FYI.

Optimystik
2009-11-27, 04:58 PM
And the Incarnate/Totemist can beat the tar out of both of them in the same situation. Oh, and both of those classes have the highest SR this side of a full caster, FYI.

Not to mention Unarmed Swordsage. I do LOVE the Soulbow, however.

Oslecamo
2009-11-27, 05:06 PM
Not to mention Unarmed Swordsage. I do LOVE the Soulbow, however.

Don't make me pull out my Jimmy Olsen commoner...

erikun
2009-11-27, 05:18 PM
Oh, don't assume that the soulknife is useless. Heck, combined with the right support spells (Touch of Idiocy, Feeblemind, Mind Fog) a soulknife can drop most things in a single hit. However, this is more due to how easy it is to knock something out with ability damage vs. HP damage. A wizard and rogue both attacking DEX will drop most things just as fast.

My problem is that, in comparing the soulknife to a rogue, the soulknife comes out far behind. Yes, the soulknife can attack with his psychic strike at the beginning of combat, but a rogue can do the same with sneak attack. A soulknife can spend a move action to prepare and one standard action to attack, but so can a rogue. A soulknife can do ability damage, but so can a rogue (with feats). Beyond that, though, the soulknife loses out. A soulknife cannot move-hide-snipe and get their bonus damage. A soulknife cannot full attack from any position and get their bonus damage. A soulknife gets less bonus damage overall.

Worthless? No. The soulknife can chisel a few points off the spellcaster's ability score, which can be useful. However, if you're trying to determine what class would be the most use in various situations, the soulknife ends up below most other classes in any source.

It doesn't make it unusable, just that most other classes are more useable.