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AmberVael
2009-11-27, 11:12 AM
Vampire

Hit Die: d8

{table=head]Level|
BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Blood Known

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Fangs 1d8, Immortality, Weak Blood|1

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Tough +1|2

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|-|3

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Fangs 1d10|4

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Thick Blood|5

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|-|5

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Tough +2|6

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+6|Fangs 2d6|7

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+6|-|8

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+7|High Blood|9

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+7|-|9

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Fangs 2d8, Tough +3|10

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|-|11

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+9|-|12

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+9|Pure Blood|13

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Fangs 3d8|13

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Tough +4|14

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|-|15

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|-|16

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Fangs 4d8|16[/table]
Class Skills (6+int per level): Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Gather Information, Jump, Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Spot.

Fangs (Ex): At level one, a vampire gains a bite attack that deals 1d8 piercing damage. The damage of the bite attack increases as shown on the class chart.

Immortality (Ex): Vampires are not subject to the ravages of time. They do not gain bonuses or penalties for aging, nor can they die of age.

Tough (Ex): A vampire gains +1 natural armor at 2nd level, which increases by one each five levels thereafter.

Vampiric Blood: A vampire gains access to certain abilities as they grow in power, which is induced by their vampiric blood. Some abilities are active and must take conscious effort to use, while others are passive and continually active. If a power is labeled as passive, it is assumed to be a permanent bonus. If a power is labeled as active, it takes a standard action to activate unless otherwise noted.
Vampiric blood abilities are assumed to be Ex abilities unless otherwise noted. The save DC for vampiric abilities is 10 + 1/2 vampire level + cha modifier (if it provokes one).
There are four grades of vampiric abilities- Weak, Thick, High, and Pure (ordered in level of power).

Each vampiric blood ability comes with a taboo. These taboos usually involve some weakness or condition under which the vampire loses their power.

Weak Blood Powers: A vampire gains Weak Blood abilities at first level. At first level, and each odd level thereafter, they may select as a Weak Blood power as one of their known blood powers.
Climbing (Passive):
Some vampires gain the ability to scamper up walls with little more difficulty than they would encounter while walking. This power gives the vampire a climb speed equal to half their base land speed. At tenth level, their speed is equal to their base land speed.
Taboo: A vampire must ask permission to enter any private residence. If they fail to do this, they lose this ability for four hours.

Potent Appearance (Active):
Many vampires have unusual appearances, be they hideous, terrifying, or beautiful. A vampire with this ability can force a target within 30ft to make a will save or be frightened or fascinated (chosen when the ability is chosen) for 1d4 rounds. On a successful save, they are shaken instead. At fifth level and each five levels thereafter, the duration increases by one round.
Taboo:
If a vampire fully faces their reflection, they lose this ability for four hours. A vampire aware of a reflective surface may choose to avert their eyes and avoid triggering the taboo- but anything adjacent to the reflective surface gains concealment from the vampire.

Powerful (Passive):
Vampires have unusually potent strength. A vampire with this ability gains a +1 enhancement bonus to strength, which increases by one every odd level after first to a maximum of +6 at level 11.
Taboo:
While directly exposed to daylight, the vampire loses this power. They regain it immediately when they move out of it.
Vampires with this power take double damage from spells with the light descriptor (does not stack with Repairing Body taboo).

Resilience (Passive):
A vampire gains damage reduction equal to their vampire level.
Taboo:
Silver weapons bypass this damage reduction.

Supernatural Speed (Passive):
This passive weak blood power gives the vampire a +10ft enhancement bonus to their base land speed. This bonus increases by 5ft every level after first. (Bonuses may be gained retroactively. For example, a fifth level vampire who takes this will gain a +30ft bonus to their base land speed.)
Taboo:
If the vampire crosses running water, they lose the benefits of supernatural speed for four hours.

Scent (Passive):
A vampire with the scent power gains the Scent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent) ability. At fifth level, they're considered to have the Track feat when using Scent. At tenth level, their scent range doubles. At fifteenth level, they can pinpoint any target within 30ft.
Taboo:
The smell of garlic is horrific to any vampire with this blood power. If they encounter the strong scent of garlic, they lose this ability for one hour.

Unholy Body (Passive):
Vampires are no longer truly alive, and so they gain certain benefits that a living person would not possess. At first level, they do not need to eat, and spend only four hours sleep. At fifth level, they gain immunity to disease and poison. At tenth level, they are immune to fatigue and exhaustion. At fifteenth level, they are immune to energy drain and level loss.
Taboo:
The touch of consecrated water or soil voids the power that sustains the life of the vampire. If a vampire touches holy water, or spends longer than one round in a hallowed or consecrated area, they lose this ability for four hours.

Thick Blood Powers: A vampire gains Thick Blood abilities at fifth level. They may now select Weak or Thick Blood powers as one of their known blood powers.
Charming Gaze (Active):
A vampire may target at one creature within sixty feet. If they fail a will save, then they are affected as if by the charm monster spell (with the vampire level acting as caster level for purposes of duration). The vampire may only keep one person charmed at a time.
This power is a supernatural ability.
Taboo:
A vampire must either wear courtly garb, or follow an accepted code of etiquette to maintain this power. If divested of garb or etiquette, the vampire loses this power for four hours, and any ongoing charms are instantly dismissed.

Flight (Passive):
Flight grants a fly speed equal to the vampire's land speed with average maneuverability. They may sprout leathery wings, slightly change form, or simply levitate to achieve this flight (as chosen by the player when selected).
Taboo:
Immersion in water breaks a vampire's tie to the heavens. After being completely immersed in water, a vampire loses their ability to fly for four hours.

Life Drinking (Active:)
As a standard action, the vampire may make a single bite attack and deal normal damage. The vampire heals a number of HP equal to half the damage dealt.
Taboo:
A vampire can only use this ability against a living creature with blood.

Predator Eyes (Passive:)
A vampire with this power notices living creatures within 30ft as if it had blindsight. It also senses the strength of their life force automatically, as if it had cast deathwatch. At 10th level, the range increases to 60ft. At 15th level, the vampire knows a creature's HP. At 20th level, the range increases to 90ft.
This power is a supernatural ability.
Taboo:
If targeted with a strongly presented holy symbol (usually if within the radius of a turning attempt), the vampire loses this ability for four hours.

Vampiric Stealth (Active):
A vampire can hide themselves within shadow. This ability works as the spell invisibility, except that its duration is permanent until dismissed.
This power is a supernatural ability.
Taboo:
A vampire must ask permission to enter any private residence. If they fail to do this, they lose this ability for four hours.

Whisper (Passive):
The vampire gains 60ft telepathy. This increases to 100ft at 10th level, 150ft at 15th, and 200ft at level 20.
This power is a supernatural ability.
Taboo:
A vampire who touches the mind of someone bearing a holy symbol or other protective talisman loses this ability for four hours.

High Blood Powers: A vampire gains High Blood abilities at tenth level. They may now select Weak, Thick, or High Blood powers as one of their known blood powers.
Animal Form (Active):
As a standard action, a vampire may assume the form of any suitable animal of the Animal type with hit dice equal to the vampire's level or less. This ability otherwise works identically to Alternate Form.
Typically, vampires can only assume the forms of carnivorous animals.
Taboo: A vampire may only use this ability at night, or while indoors.

Blood Drain (Passive):
The vampire may now deal 1 constitution damage every time they successful deal damage with their bite attack. At 15th level, they deal 1d3 constitution damage instead. At 20th level, they deal 1d4+1.
Taboo: A vampire can only deal constitution damage to living creatures with blood.

Repairing Body (Passive):
The vampire gains Fast Healing 1. At level 20, this becomes Fast Healing 5.
Taboo:
While directly exposed to daylight, the vampire loses this power. They regain it immediately when they move out of it.
Vampires with this power take double damage from spells with the light descriptor (does not stack with Powerful taboo).

Telekinesis (Active):
The mind of the vampire becomes capable of affecting its surroundings. This ability is identical to the telekinesis spell, as if the vampire were a sorcerer of its level.
This power is a supernatural ability.
Taboo:
A vampire is incapable of moving any sacred or sanctified object or person, or any target protected by such holy magics. This ability is lost for four hours if it is used against such a target.

Pure Blood Powers: A vampire gains Pure Blood abilities at fifteenth level. They may now select Weak, Thick, High, or Pure Blood powers as one of their known blood powers.
Dominating Gaze (Active):
A vampire may target at one creature within sixty feet. If they fail a will save, then they are affected as if by the dominate monster spell (with the vampire level acting as caster level for purposes of duration). The vampire may only keep one person dominated at a time.
This power is a supernatural ability.
Taboo:
If the vampire touches cold iron, it loses this ability for four hours, and any ongoing dominate effects are instantly dismissed.

Undying Body (Passive):
This power grants Regeneration 1.
Taboo:
Wooden stakes and fire both deal lethal damage to the vampire. If the vampire is decapitated, it is also slain.

AmberVael
2009-11-27, 11:14 AM
...well, I totally didn't mean to post this yet. However! I'll go with the accidental flow.

So, what I was planning on was creating a vampire class. As you can see, I haven't even gotten started yet. Kinda hit submit instead of preview. My bad.

However, since it isn't finished, and I'm already explaining it, I might as well take suggestions.

The basic outline for the class idea is to create something that takes cues from both the standard Warlock class, and Fax's Paladin. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551) It gains supernatural powers at the cost of taboos (which represent the vampiric weaknesses).

So if anyone has suggestions, I'd love to hear them- if not, well, just wait for me to finish. :smallwink:

Woodsman
2009-11-27, 11:25 AM
Obviously there will have to be some shape-shifting ability, standard weaknesses, climbing ability, etc.

BRC
2009-11-27, 11:29 AM
I would reccomend several "Path's", representing the various types of Vampire

The Predator path represents the Vampire as a brutal hunter, more animal than anything, stalking it's prey and overpowering them with pure strength. This path should be based around building up the Vampires natural weapons/DR/ Physical stats (Str/Dex/Con)
The Dominator path represents the Vampire as a charming socialite capable of controlling people both subtly and directly, feeding off "Willing" victims whose minds are in thrall to them.
The Blood Magus path represents the Vampire as a powerful spellcaster, who uses the blood they consume to power dread magics. I see this path being more like a Warlock than anything.

As for a base mechanic, I see it like this.
Every time a Vampire feeds, they get one "Blood Token". Living for a day consumes one Blood Token, as does activating various special abilities. A Vampire may have up to their class level in Blood Tokens at any one time, so while a first level vamp must feed every night, a higher level one can feed on multiple people, then wait. However, a first level Vamp could feed, use an ability, then feed again that same night.

Some Vampire abilities are active, they take Blood Tokens to use, here's a random example.

Destroy Will: All opponents within 30 feet of you must make a Will Save, if they fail, they take a -3 penalty on all further will saves to resist your abilities. This takes one Blood Token to use.

Other abilities are passive, giving constant bonuses in exchange for increasing the Vamp's daily rate of consumption. Example:
Hunter's Might: Add a permanent +2 bonus to your Strength and Constitution scores. However, you consume an additional blood token each day.

If a Vampire runs out of blood tokens, they make progressively harder will saves every hour, if they fail one, they enter a "Frenzy", they lose all control and are entierly focused on feeding as quickly as possible. they are mindless in this state, and will even run out into sunlight. The Frenzy continues until they have their maximum number of Blood Tokens.

If killed in a Frenzy, they die for good. Also, for every hour a Frenzied vampire fails to feed, they must make increasingly difficult fortitude saves. If they fail one of these saves, they die.

Edit: as for weaknesses (Sunlight, holy Symbols, ect), Blood Tokens can be spent to grant immunity to them, but only for a short time. A Vampire who stands in bright sunlight isn't necessarily hurt, but is losing Blood Tokens every round.

AmberVael
2009-11-27, 11:34 AM
Obviously there will have to be some shape-shifting ability, standard weaknesses, climbing ability, etc.

If by standard weaknesses you mean "weaknesses that every vampire has," that probably won't happen. You only gain weaknesses through taking certain types of supernatural powers. Granted, these will reflect all (or most) fabled vampiric weaknesses- it just isn't foisted onto any vampire without them gaining the appropriate ability.


I would reccomend several "Path's", representing the various types of Vampire.

*snip*

While these things are very interesting ideas, the multiple paths would work better as several different classes (which I am not sure I'll do), and the blood token thing only complicates a class that will already give flaws for every advantage you take.

I love the ideas, but they're not especially compatible with what I'm already making. Perhaps you should make your own?

Woodsman
2009-11-27, 11:36 AM
If by standard weaknesses you mean "weaknesses that every vampire has," that probably won't happen. You only gain weaknesses through taking certain types of supernatural powers. Granted, these will reflect all (or most) fabled vampiric weaknesses- it just isn't foisted onto any vampire without them gaining the appropriate ability.


That makes sense. Keeps enemies on their toes. :smalltongue:

BRC
2009-11-27, 11:38 AM
If by standard weaknesses you mean "weaknesses that every vampire has," that probably won't happen. You only gain weaknesses through taking certain types of supernatural powers. Granted, these will reflect all (or most) fabled vampiric weaknesses- it just isn't foisted onto any vampire without them gaining the appropriate ability.



While these things are very interesting ideas, the multiple paths would work better as several different classes (which I am not sure I'll do), and the blood token thing only complicates a class that will already give flaws for every advantage you take.

I love the ideas, but they're not especially compatible with what I'm already making. Perhaps you should make your own?
Maybe I will
Personally, I wouldn't have each individual ability give an individual weakness, I would have it be a list thing.
"Oh, you want the ability to turn into a bat, well, you can either be unable to enter houses without permission, be unable to approach holy symbols, or be unable to cross running water".

AmberVael
2009-11-27, 11:44 AM
Maybe I will
Personally, I wouldn't have each individual ability give an individual weakness, I would have it be a list thing.
"Oh, you want the ability to turn into a bat, well, you can either be unable to enter houses without permission, be unable to approach holy symbols, or be unable to cross running water".

Most of the weaknesses are going to be directly tied to the ability- giving options wouldn't make much sense.

For example- a vampire can regenerate while in shadow (well, fast heal, probably), but while in sunlight they lose the ability, possibly get it inverted, possibly lose other powers (haven't decided completely yet). They'd also take double damage from sunlight based spells.

Or possibly, if a vampire took supernatural appearance (either hideous or beautiful), confronting a mirror would be bad for them.

Or if a vampire has supernaturally tough skin, silver (or maybe a stake) would bypass it with terrible ease, possibly even adding damage.

I'm considering actually having two levels of flaw for each advantage. I'm not sure what would trigger the worse flaw though. Maybe they can choose to gain extra advantage for extra flaw? Seems like asking for Min Maxing though...

Friend Computer
2009-11-27, 11:48 AM
I would reccomend several "Path's", representing the various types of Vampire

The Predator path represents the Vampire as a brutal hunter, more animal than anything, stalking it's prey and overpowering them with pure strength. This path should be based around building up the Vampires natural weapons/DR/ Physical stats (Str/Dex/Con)
The Dominator path represents the Vampire as a charming socialite capable of controlling people both subtly and directly, feeding off "Willing" victims whose minds are in thrall to them.
The Blood Magus path represents the Vampire as a powerful spellcaster, who uses the blood they consume to power dread magics. I see this path being more like a Warlock than anything.

As for a base mechanic, I see it like this.
Every time a Vampire feeds, they get one "Blood Token". Living for a day consumes one Blood Token, as does activating various special abilities. A Vampire may have up to their class level in Blood Tokens at any one time, so while a first level vamp must feed every night, a higher level one can feed on multiple people, then wait. However, a first level Vamp could feed, use an ability, then feed again that same night.

Some Vampire abilities are active, they take Blood Tokens to use, here's a random example.

Destroy Will: All opponents within 30 feet of you must make a Will Save, if they fail, they take a -3 penalty on all further will saves to resist your abilities. This takes one Blood Token to use.

Other abilities are passive, giving constant bonuses in exchange for increasing the Vamp's daily rate of consumption. Example:
Hunter's Might: Add a permanent +2 bonus to your Strength and Constitution scores. However, you consume an additional blood token each day.

If a Vampire runs out of blood tokens, they make progressively harder will saves every hour, if they fail one, they enter a "Frenzy", they lose all control and are entierly focused on feeding as quickly as possible. they are mindless in this state, and will even run out into sunlight. The Frenzy continues until they have their maximum number of Blood Tokens.

If killed in a Frenzy, they die for good. Also, for every hour a Frenzied vampire fails to feed, they must make increasingly difficult fortitude saves. If they fail one of these saves, they die.

Edit: as for weaknesses (Sunlight, holy Symbols, ect), Blood Tokens can be spent to grant immunity to them, but only for a short time. A Vampire who stands in bright sunlight isn't necessarily hurt, but is losing Blood Tokens every round.

I'm totally in love with this idea... Now, to actually make it...

BRC
2009-11-27, 11:50 AM
Most of the weaknesses are going to be directly tied to the ability- giving options wouldn't make much sense.

For example- a vampire can regenerate while in shadow (well, fast heal, probably), but while in sunlight they lose the ability, possibly get it inverted, possibly lose other powers (haven't decided completely yet). They'd also take double damage from sunlight based spells.

Or possibly, if a vampire took supernatural appearance (either hideous or beautiful), confronting a mirror would be bad for them.

Or if a vampire has supernaturally tough skin, silver (or maybe a stake) would bypass it with terrible ease, possibly even adding damage.

I'm considering actually having two levels of flaw for each advantage. I'm not sure what would trigger the worse flaw though. Maybe they can choose to gain extra advantage for extra flaw? Seems like asking for Min Maxing though...
So each ability has a method of bypassing it?
That sounds workable. I do like the idea of each flaw having 2 levels, one where it's merely negated,and other where it's reversed. Maybe each ability has two levels, if you go for the better bonus, you accept the better penalty.

For example, if you take "Vampiric Healing", you get Fast Heal 5 while in shadows. In sunlight, you are deprived of this healing. However, you can upgrade that to "Improved Vampiric Healing", in which you gain fast heal 10 in shadows, but take 10 damage a round in bright sunlight.

Woodsman
2009-11-27, 11:50 AM
I'm totally in love with this idea... Now, to actually make it...

I'm pretty sure that's really close to WoD vampires, actually.

Kesnit
2009-11-27, 11:51 AM
If a Vampire runs out of blood tokens, they make progressively harder will saves every hour, if they fail one, they enter a "Frenzy", they lose all control and are entierly focused on feeding as quickly as possible. they are mindless in this state, and will even run out into sunlight. The Frenzy continues until they have their maximum number of Blood Tokens.

If killed in a Frenzy, they die for good. Also, for every hour a Frenzied vampire fails to feed, they must make increasingly difficult fortitude saves. If they fail one of these saves, they die.

I don't know if Vampire was intended as a playable race/class. If not, disregard my comments.

Using this mechanic, the player and DM would have to be in close accord about how the vampire feeds. (I am assuming feeding =/= killing, but that is another issue.) If the party is in a dungeon (or otherwise away from non-party members for an extended time), the vampire risks quickly becoming useless, and eventually a liability.

The Vampire loses one Blood Token (BT) per night. One week-long trip (which is not an unreasonable one) is going to put a low-level Vampire into Frenzy without question. (Unless, of course, they feed off party members. But then you have to determine penalties, if any, for victims and the party members have to be agreeable.) Even if the party is just doing a short delve, a low-level Vampire is going to have to severely ration BT's because there is no way for them to know when they might get another.

If you want to say Vampires can feed in combat, there need to be rules for how it is done. (Grapple checks? Command Monster/Person as an SLA? How long does it take to get a BT? How much damage does feeding do? How many BT can a Vampire get from a given monster? Are there creatures a Vampire cannot feed from?)

Removing the requirement to blow a BT every day would help, because that would allow the Vampire to better manage assets. ("I have 5 BT left, but it could take 3 days to finish what we are doing. That only leaves 2 BT for anything else I want to do.")


I'm pretty sure that's really close to WoD vampires, actually.

The mechanics are similar, but VtR is a very different game from D&D.

Friend Computer
2009-11-27, 11:53 AM
I'm pretty sure that's really close to WoD vampires, actually.
Which would be a great reference if I knew that system, or had some books with me...

But the main issue would be balance, and when to apply the abilities, and how strong they should be.

Friend Computer
2009-11-27, 11:56 AM
So each ability has a method of bypassing it?
That sounds workable. I do like the idea of each flaw having 2 levels, one where it's merely negated,and other where it's reversed. Maybe each ability has two levels, if you go for the better bonus, you accept the better penalty.

For example, if you take "Vampiric Healing", you get Fast Heal 5 while in shadows. In sunlight, you are deprived of this healing. However, you can upgrade that to "Improved Vampiric Healing", in which you gain fast heal 10 in shadows, but take 10 damage a round in bright sunlight.
This makes no sense to me. If you have to take an ability to get fast healing, and it only applies under a specific condition, how is 'it doesn't happen under opposite condition' a flaw? Wouldn't it be better to say that no healing at all is possible in sunlight, rather than 'no fast healing'?

BRC
2009-11-27, 11:58 AM
I don't know if Vampire was intended as a playable race/class. If not, disregard my comments.

Using this mechanic, the player and DM would have to be in close accord about how the vampire feeds. (I am assuming feeding =/= killing, but that is another issue.) If the party is in a dungeon (or otherwise away from non-party members for an extended time), the vampire risks quickly becoming useless, and eventually a liability.

The Vampire loses one Blood Token (BT) per night. One week-long trip (which is not an unreasonable one) is going to put a low-level Vampire into Frenzy without question. (Unless, of course, they feed off party members. But then you have to determine penalties, if any, for victims and the party members have to be agreeable.) Even if the party is just doing a short delve, a low-level Vampire is going to have to severely ration BT's because there is no way for them to know when they might get another.

If you want to say Vampires can feed in combat, there need to be rules for how it is done. (Grapple checks? Command Monster/Person as an SLA? How long does it take to get a BT? How much damage does feeding do? How many BT can a Vampire get from a given monster? Are there creatures a Vampire cannot feed from?)

Removing the requirement to blow a BT every day would help, because that would allow the Vampire to better manage assets. ("I have 5 BT left, but it could take 3 days to finish what we are doing. That only leaves 2 BT for anything else I want to do.")
Well If we did that, there would be feats a vampire could take to increase their BT capacity. Maybe a magic item that lets them store BT's. Or making the BT capacity Class level +4 or something.
Also, they could definitely drain in-battle. I would say draining deals constitution damage, and a Vamp could get a BT for every X constitution damage they deal. This means that if a Vamp is going for kills, they could get multiple BT's from one creature by completely draining them.
Any creature with discernible anatomy could be drained. So that leaves out Oozes, Undead, Constructs, and Plants.
Draining in combat is definitely an option, I would call it a grapple check of some sort. Of course, you can always just batter an opponent into negatives before you feed. Each "Path" would have a different specailzed way of getting their food. Predators would grapple, Dominators would mind control, and Blood Magi would use magic to paralyze or otherwise render the target helpless.

The idea would be that a vamp could lose and regain several blood tokens over the course of a single combat. But this thread is about Vael's vampire class, not mine.

AmberVael
2009-11-27, 12:01 PM
This makes no sense to me. If you have to take an ability to get fast healing, and it only applies under a specific condition, how is 'it doesn't happen under opposite condition' a flaw? Wouldn't it be better to say that no healing at all is possible in sunlight, rather than 'no fast healing'?

Well, its more of a taboo (again like Fax's paladin). The idea is that if you do the wrong thing, you're deprived of abilities (because burdening them with tons of weaknesses would be kind of unfair, balance wise).

Of course, vampires are known for having weaknesses, so the idea is somehow one can trigger the terrible negative effects under the right conditions. So they need to be careful, but they aren't just completely doomed like a DnD vampire is.

Friend Computer
2009-11-27, 12:06 PM
Well, its more of a taboo (again like Fax's paladin). The idea is that if you do the wrong thing, you're deprived of abilities (because burdening them with tons of weaknesses would be kind of unfair, balance wise).

Of course, vampires are known for having weaknesses, so the idea is somehow one can trigger the terrible negative effects under the right conditions. So they need to be careful, but they aren't just completely doomed like a DnD vampire is.
I have no idea what taboos are, but all this is doing is saying that you can only use this ability in a given situation. The ability comes with the caveas that you cannot use this ability in a non-given situation.

So it seems like is should either just get 'FH5 in shadows only' with the removal of the ability to heal naturally in sunlight, or have no off-set at all.

Friend Computer
2009-11-27, 12:09 PM
Well If we did that, there would be feats a vampire could take to increase their BT capacity. Maybe a magic item that lets them store BT's. Or making the BT capacity Class level +4 or something.
Also, they could definitely drain in-battle. I would say draining deals constitution damage, and a Vamp could get a BT for every X constitution damage they deal. This means that if a Vamp is going for kills, they could get multiple BT's from one creature by completely draining them.
Any creature with discernible anatomy could be drained. So that leaves out Oozes, Undead, Constructs, and Plants.
Draining in combat is definitely an option, I would call it a grapple check of some sort. Of course, you can always just batter an opponent into negatives before you feed. Each "Path" would have a different specailzed way of getting their food. Predators would grapple, Dominators would mind control, and Blood Magi would use magic to paralyze or otherwise render the target helpless.

The idea would be that a vamp could lose and regain several blood tokens over the course of a single combat. But this thread is about Vael's vampire class, not mine.

Hmm... Maybe have it that each bite takes a full round, and deals one con damage. For every 4 con dealt, the vampire recieves one BT?

AmberVael
2009-11-27, 12:11 PM
I have no idea what taboos are, but all this is doing is saying that you can only use this ability in a given situation. The ability comes with the caveats that you cannot use this ability in a non-given situation.
Yes. It is. As I was trying to explain, that is the point. To hand out weaknesses as well as class abilities is essentially punishing the player for choosing the class- which is rather silly. So the idea is to give someone a power that cannot be used under certain circumstances which are tied to a vampire's weaknesses.

However, as the actual weaknesses are tied to vampiric lore, I do want some way to trigger a real flaw (which would be burning in sunlight, or susceptibility to fire, silver, or that kind of stuff). But I don't want that to be the standard reaction, because it would be unfair to the player.

Friend Computer
2009-11-27, 12:16 PM
Yes. It is. As I was trying to explain, that is the point. To hand out weaknesses as well as class abilities is essentially punishing the player for choosing the class- which is rather silly. So the idea is to give someone a power that cannot be used under certain circumstances which are tied to a vampire's weaknesses.

However, as the actual weaknesses are tied to vampiric lore, I do want some way to trigger a real flaw (which would be burning in sunlight, or susceptibility to fire, silver, or that kind of stuff). But I don't want that to be the standard reaction, because it would be unfair to the player.

OK, I must be an absolute idiot for not getting this, so you'll have to explain it to me like I'm 4.

How do you lose access to an ability which you can't use under that condition?
It makes absolutely no sense to me how someone could have 'FH5 in shadow' which means 'nowhere but shadow, and yet somehow be deprived of the use of that ability in sunlight. How do they lose the use of an ability they never had?

BRC
2009-11-27, 12:17 PM
Yes. It is. As I was trying to explain, that is the point. To hand out weaknesses as well as class abilities is essentially punishing the player for choosing the class- which is rather silly. So the idea is to give someone a power that cannot be used under certain circumstances which are tied to a vampire's weaknesses.

However, as the actual weaknesses are tied to vampiric lore, I do want some way to trigger a real flaw (which would be burning in sunlight, or susceptibility to fire, silver, or that kind of stuff). But I don't want that to be the standard reaction, because it would be unfair to the player.
Which is why I recommend you let the player pick between one of two bonuses. One where the weakness merely negates the bonus, and the other where it actually causes a major penalty. This way if they start burning in sunlight it's because they made the choice to take the extra fast healing in exchange for burning in sunlight, not because they simply took the class.

Dixieboy
2009-11-27, 12:20 PM
The Predator path represents the Vampire as a brutal hunter, more animal than anything, stalking it's prey and overpowering them with pure strength. This path should be based around building up the Vampires natural weapons/DR/ Physical stats (Str/Dex/Con) Gangrel

The Dominator path represents the Vampire as a charming socialite capable of controlling people both subtly and directly, feeding off "Willing" victims whose minds are in thrall to them.Ventrue/Toreador

The Blood Magus path represents the Vampire as a powerful spellcaster, who uses the blood they consume to power dread magics. I see this path being more like a Warlock than anything.
Tremere

Sorry, it had to be done

AmberVael
2009-11-27, 12:22 PM
OK, I must be an absolute idiot for not getting this, so you'll have to explain it to me like I'm 4.

How do you lose access to an ability which you can't use under that condition?
It makes absolutely no sense to me how someone could have 'FH5 in shadow' which means 'nowhere but shadow, and yet somehow be deprived of the use of that ability in sunlight. How do they lose the use of an ability they never had?

I was more highlighting the contrast rather than saying they were different conditions. I can see how the wording would have gotten confusing. Sorry about that.

So the ability would be "the vampire gains fast healing 5" while the taboo would be "the vampire loses this ability while in sunlight," while the greater taboo would be "the vampire takes 5 damage every round while in sunlight".

^: Yeah, that's why I didn't want to do that.

I've also made a tentative list of different vampiric powers in the first post. Anyone have suggestions for those?

BRC
2009-11-27, 12:25 PM
I was more highlighting the contrast rather than saying they were different conditions. I can see how the wording would have gotten confusing. Sorry about that.

So the ability would be "the vampire gains fast healing 5" while the taboo would be "the vampire loses this ability while in sunlight," while the greater taboo would be "the vampire takes 5 damage every round while in sunlight".

^: Yeah, that's why I didn't want to do that.
Maybe have halfway conditions, for example
In Shadow, the Vampire gains fast healing
In artificial light or dim sunlight, the vampire loses that healing
in bright sunlight, the Vampire takes damage.

or

the vampire gains DR5/Stakes or Silver
When attacked with Silver or a Stake, he loses that DR
When attacked with a silver tipped stake, he takes 5 additional damage.

Friend Computer
2009-11-27, 12:26 PM
I was more highlighting the contrast rather than saying they were different conditions. I can see how the wording would have gotten confusing. Sorry about that.

So the ability would be "the vampire gains fast healing 5" while the taboo would be "the vampire loses this ability while in sunlight," while the greater taboo would be "the vampire takes 5 damage every round while in sunlight".

^: Yeah, that's why I didn't want to do that.

I've also made a tentative list of different vampiric powers in the first post. Anyone have suggestions for those?
OK, that makes sense. I was freaking out there...

AmberVael
2009-11-27, 03:35 PM
Okay, I've mostly completed the Weak Blood powers. I think I probably want to toss in a strength based power in there somewhere, and I need a good taboo for Climb, but otherwise I think I'm good. Suggestions/criticism welcome.

I'm kinda concerned that I'll end up like monk, with abilities that don't mesh well, so suggestions and thoughts in that area would be good too (possibly move some of the abilities to swift so they can be used in conjunction with other abilities, like full attacks?)

Talbot
2009-11-27, 03:44 PM
Two things:

1) Hit die/skill points/class skills?

2) The DR power seems a bit too good, but maybe that's just me. Maybe make it so it only increases every other level, or work it like 3/4 BAB.

AmberVael
2009-11-27, 08:34 PM
I added in tentative HD and class skills. Hit die may be dropped a little.

Right now, I'm erring on the side of powerful, just to represent all the different abilities I'd like to give it.

As for DR... well...
1) The DR starts low (so at low levels, less of an issue).
2) At medium levels, Silver weapons will be really easy backup weapons to have, so it can be negated then.
3) At high levels, characters will either have weapons/attacks that bypass DR, or will be dealing enough damage to negate it entirely.

So I'm thinking that while initially it may look powerful, it isn't actually all that amazing of an ability as you might think it is. Handy? Yes. But not overpowering.

-

Bump edit.

I've mostly created the Thick Blood abilities, and edited the class a bit. Tt seems more like a sneak and charm oriented class with some roguish damage potential more than a heavy hitter, so I lowered HD and BAB a bit, and added some skill points. Advice and criticism welcome. I'd particularly like it if some people weighed in on taboos for Climb (weak blood) and Whispers (thick blood). Also on the DR ability- I've made my case, but it was a concern I thought of, and if someone else brought it up too... well, other opinions would be welcome. Especially if they can bring comparisons.

Vonotar
2009-11-28, 04:58 PM
A taboo for whispers could be that if the vampire inadvertently contacts someone with a holy object concealed about their person, or who is sufficiently holy, they receive a mental backlash of divine damage perhaps?

Edit: Alternatively that because they are 'connecting' with that person, they take a minor penalty to will saves from that character, OR the character receives a bonus to will saves from the vampire

Latronis
2009-11-28, 05:13 PM
some kind of Mental-Stat Burn

AmberVael
2009-11-30, 01:27 PM
Okay, I went ahead and gave a taboo to whispers (went ahead with inability to connect to people with holy symbols), and one to climb.

Some taboos are overlapping, but I think that will be fine. Still, if anyone has suggestions for a non-overlapping taboo, that'd be fine.

I went ahead and made the High Blood powers.

NosferatuZodd
2009-11-30, 09:25 PM
Looking nice, instead of a more powerful bite, you could also strengthen up their blood sucking powers, or maybe give them the option of claws! I would love playing a vicious ghoul-like clawed nosferatu.

AmberVael
2009-11-30, 09:33 PM
Blood sucking comes under the Blood abilities (See Life Drinking under Thick Blood, and Blood Drain under High Blood). So yes, you can do that. The fangs represent your general capability to bite and consume blood, while the special abilities show your capacity to drain life for your benefit, or more completely.

Claws is a good point though, I've been thinking about that. Maybe make it a thick or weak blood power.

Latronis
2009-11-30, 10:03 PM
I think we've all seen a vampire standing outside the manor when the woman sleeping with a crucifix suddenly wake up and tear off the crucifix and head into the vampires embrace.

So I'd say Vampires in general are too often shown using telepathy like powers to get around the crucifix repel and must be invited clauses. Allows for subtle and intelligent means of getting what they want despite such taboos.

So i think the can't connect with those wearing a holy symbol isn't the best idea for a taboo nor should the holy symbol be too frequently a taboo or you'll end up with just about every vampire having some kind of weakness to them and those that hunt them fall back on too often. So it's kind of counter to the whole Different tricks approach.

AmberVael
2009-11-30, 10:12 PM
You'll notice that the two most manipulative of the vampire's abilities- that is, Charm and Dominate, are unaffected by the target possessing talismans, so the scene you propose is quite possible.

There are only two things that share that taboo- Predator eyes, which only prevents them from sensing life, and Whispers, which prevents it from communicating telepathically with said creatures.

Telekinesis and Unholy body are similar, but they involve something more directly consecrated and holy, and even then, they require direct contact with said substance, or to try and directly touch it with your power, both of which are easily avoided by a cunning vampire.

A vampire aware of their situation can most often avoid voiding their taboos. It is only a reckless or surprised vampire that will be likely to void them and lose powers- even then, they probably have their most powerful defensive and offensive abilities intact.

Tavar
2009-11-30, 10:18 PM
Just from a quick read of the first post, there seems to be a typo in the last blood powers list: instead of calling it pure it's called high, as is the list before that. Other than that, though, it looks interesting.

AmberVael
2009-11-30, 10:24 PM
Fixed the typo. Not sure how that happened.

Anyways, I think I might want some extra class abilities (toss in spice here and there), and I definitely need more High and Pure blood powers. Ideas welcome.

Sila Prirode
2009-12-01, 06:34 AM
Anyways, I think I might want some extra class abilities (toss in spice here and there), and I definitely need more High and Pure blood powers. Ideas welcome.

Well I might just jump on the bandwagon :smallbiggrin:
My proposition would be, at level 6 you choose your Focus. At levels 11 and 20 your focus becomes more powerful.
Some examples:
Brute Focus - At level 6 gain two Claw attack as secondary attack.
At level 11 gain Multiattack, and Rend.
At level 20 gain Pounce, and some cool ability as a full round action (let's say, attack with one claw attack per target in reach, and if you threaten a critical gain additional attack on that target).

Magus - At level 6 gain spellcasting as a Dread Necromancer of half you Vampire level.
At level 11 you gain spellcasting as a Dread Necromancer of 3/4 your level and +1 CL on Necromancy Spells.
At level 20 you gain full spellcasting as Dread Necromancer and +2 on Spell Penetration Checks.

Predator Focus - At level 6 you gain Sneak Attack as Rogue of 3/4 your level.
At level 11 you gain full Sneak Attack, and you can't miss due to concealment (even from Blink, and stuff).
At level 20 as a full round action you can make Sneak Attack on Undead, Constructs and Elementals.

The Bushranger
2009-12-03, 10:55 PM
Pretty cool. :smallsmile:
One thing I noticed, what weapon and armour proficiencies does the vampire get?

Dante & Vergil
2009-12-04, 02:24 PM
Can this Vampire class take this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) template?

AmberVael
2009-12-04, 02:27 PM
Pretty cool. :smallsmile:
One thing I noticed, what weapon and armour proficiencies does the vampire get?

I'm probably going to go with light armor. Not sure about weaponry.


Can this Vampire class take this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) template?

Nope. This is a completely separate thing from the monster Vampire, so it wouldn't qualify.