PDA

View Full Version : Change the knight class (PHB2, page 24) to a better samurai class



realbombchu
2009-11-27, 11:53 AM
I've had some ideas in this direction since it was suggested to me a couple of months ago, but I would like some help. Some of the reflavoring is easy to do. Knight's code of conduct becomes code of bushido, for example, and knight's challenge would become something like honorable challenge.

Really, I just want to check my ideas with you all, and see if they are enough or too much. I would remove the knight's shield proficiency and add the daisho proficiency ability from Complete Warrior's samurai, which just means that the samurai can use a katana.

At 2nd, 6th, and 11th level (just like a ranger), I would give the class the benefits of Two-Weapon Defense and Two-Weapon Fighting with their daisho (and their improved and greater versions respectively) instead of the knight's shield block +x abilities. Combined with a defense wakizashi, this is just as good as carrying a shield, maybe a little better, but more expensive gp-wise.

Do you think I should remove the knight's bonus feats? They only get 3 of them, I think, and the list is pretty restricted.

Other than that, I changed their class skill list, because I thought the knight had some glaring omissions. They still only get 2 + Int modifier skill points, but now they have a few more choices.

Class Skills
The samurai's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

The knight class looks pretty good, so I think that's all I'll have to do. What do you all think? Thanks for any help!

Gnaeus
2009-11-27, 12:03 PM
How good do you want this class to be? Knight is tier 5 or bottom of tier 4. Marginally better than a fighter or monk. Arguably worse than Paladin. Definitely below Barbarian and Rogue. Is that where you want your samurai to be, or closer to tier 3 or the spellcasters?

realbombchu
2009-11-27, 12:07 PM
Well, you see, I'm not very familiar with the tiers. I guess I would like the class to be as good as it can and still be balanced. Closer to a barbarian, at least. What are the tiers (briefly, if you can)?

cheezewizz2000
2009-11-27, 12:10 PM
Here you go! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0). Now I wonder if I've been ninja'd...

Edit: Ooh! No, I haven't. That's a real supprise.

Boci
2009-11-27, 12:16 PM
Well, you see, I'm not very familiar with the tiers. I guess I would like the class to be as good as it can and still be balanced. Closer to a barbarian, at least. What are the tiers (briefly, if you can)?

If you have access to tome of battle the crusader makes a good knight and can be reflavoured as a samurai.

If ToB isn't an option, then I think it should be as powerful as a barbarian (although that its rather low in the tier list). However, samurai's were supose to be cultured. If you really want to keep their skill points at 2 per level, then at least give them a class feature that gives them 2 extra skill points per level that can only be spent on skill to improve their court etiquate (I am sure I miss spelt that.)

Charlie Kemek
2009-11-27, 12:25 PM
If you have access to tome of battle the crusader makes a good knight and can be reflavoured as a samurai.

If ToB isn't an option, then I think it should be as powerful as a barbarian (although that its rather low in the tier list). However, samurai's were supose to be cultured. If you really want to keep their skill points at 2 per level, then at least give them a class feature that gives them 2 extra skill points per level that can only be spent on skill to improve their court etiquate (I am sure I miss spelt that.)

I think that the warblade would make a better samurai, due to the fact that it has tiger claw maneuvers.

Ecalsneerg
2009-11-27, 12:34 PM
A Warblade might fit well, as Charlie says, as they have Intelligence-based class abilities and decent skill points (samurai were meant to be educated), and Diamond Mind has katana as a discipline weapon.

Boci
2009-11-27, 12:35 PM
I think that the warblade would make a better samurai, due to the fact that it has tiger claw maneuvers.

True, but warblades aren't that good at making others attack them.

realbombchu
2009-11-27, 12:35 PM
Using the tier list I was shown, I would like tier 3, but will settle for high in tier 4. I know I can't make anything in tier 1 or 2 using what I have. Alas, I do not have ToB, so I cannot use it. I may order it from my book store, though, since it keeps coming up in conversation.

For the moment, though, let's assume I'm a really stubborn guy and want to use the knight class as my base. Does anyone have suggestions that will make this class mechanically tier 3?

As for adding dedicated skill points, I don't know. I think I might go the barbarian-like way and just give them 4 skill points per level instead.

Wow, totally ninjad.

Boci
2009-11-27, 12:38 PM
Using the tier list I was shown, I would like tier 3, but will settle for high in tier 4. I know I can't make anything in tier 1 or 2 using what I have. Alas, I do not have ToB, so I cannot use it. I may order it from my book store, though, since it keeps coming up in conversation.

For the moment, though, let's assume I'm a really stubborn guy and want to use the knight class as my base. Does anyone have suggestions that will make this class mechanically tier 3?

Tiers are also about versatility as well as power. If you want them to be tier 3 give them 4 skill points per level, lay on hands as a swift action, a bonus fighter feat every 3rd level and that might do it. I need to check exactly what class features the knight gets.

Gametime
2009-11-27, 12:39 PM
True, but warblades aren't that good at making others attack them.

They aren't as good at locking down the enemy as a Crusader is, but they're just as dangerous to ignore. Enemies that don't teleport or tumble have a hard time getting away from a Warblade without serious pain.

realbombchu
2009-11-27, 12:42 PM
Would it be really rude if I asked that we not debate the various ToB classes here? I mean, I don't want to be a jerk, but I don't even know what you're talking about, so it doesn't really help me.

Boci
2009-11-27, 12:47 PM
Would it be really rude if I asked that we not debate the various ToB classes here? I mean, I don't want to be a jerk, but I don't even know what you're talking about, so it doesn't really help me.

Fair enough, I highly recomend you buy it because its awesom, and to prove my point, heres the warblade class and all the manouvers:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a

Now lets not mention ToB again.

jmbrown
2009-11-27, 01:02 PM
Using the tier list I was shown, I would like tier 3, but will settle for high in tier 4. I know I can't make anything in tier 1 or 2 using what I have. Alas, I do not have ToB, so I cannot use it. I may order it from my book store, though, since it keeps coming up in conversation.

For the moment, though, let's assume I'm a really stubborn guy and want to use the knight class as my base. Does anyone have suggestions that will make this class mechanically tier 3?

As for adding dedicated skill points, I don't know. I think I might go the barbarian-like way and just give them 4 skill points per level instead.

Wow, totally ninjad.

If you haven't noticed the pattern, the tier system is based entirely on versatility which basically means "Does it gain access to spells/spell-like/extraordinary abilities?" The more they have and the fewer restrictions the higher the tier.

Historically, a samurai was a noble highly trained at all forms of combat. They fought equally well with naginata (a large sword-like polearm), yari (spear), katana (wielded two handed, not the one-handed junk you see in anime), composite bow, heavy armor, and rode into battle on horses. They were fierce warriors in battle and the staunchest gentlemen outside of battle. Recommended mechanics:

*Expert riders (bonus mount related feats, riding bonuses, increased damage while on horseback or setting weapons against charges)
*Expert archers (bonus to ranged attacks)
*Intimidating (extraordinary abilities through intimidation skill such as causing everyone in a 30' radius to be shaken)
*Diplomatic (bonuses to diplomacy or such)
*Katana and wakizashi were prized weapon (give a bonus or special abilities used with these weapons and these weapons only)

IMO it's really difficult to make, mechanically, a realistic samurai even within a fantasy world. Every samurai class I've seen is based on a movie trope which was usually established by a character that was a ronin. Samurai should have a stricter code of conduct than even the paladin.

*Correct the actions of those who lie within the samurai's presence.
*Never run from a battle unless your superior orders it.
*Give to those in need without thought of yourself. Refuse all gifts twice.
*Respect those in positions higher than you whether enemy or ally.
*Never tell a lie.
*Uphold your honor. If you or your lord's honor is challenged you must defend it.
*Always remain loyal to your lord or retainer. If he falls on behalf of you negligence you must atone.

Unfortunately, pretty much all of those instantly disrupts the assumption that D&D adventurers are free roaming, free willed mercenaries. If you actually want to create a samurai and not just an "Orange Chicken Knight" as I like to call it, you should read up on their uses in combat and the practice of bushido.

Boci
2009-11-27, 01:07 PM
*Always remain loyal to your lord or retainer. If he falls on behalf of you negligence you must atone.

By commiting ritual suicide. As you said, a samurai that is historically accurate is not an adventur clas. You are a feudal lord's b*** bound by honour. Sure, it could be fun, but playing them this way should be the exception, not the rule.

bosssmiley
2009-11-27, 01:13 PM
If you haven't noticed the pattern, the tier system is based entirely on versatility which basically means "Does it gain access to spells/spell-like/extraordinary abilities?" The more they have and the fewer restrictions the higher the tier.

<trim>

Unfortunately, pretty much all of those instantly disrupts the assumption that D&D adventurers are free roaming, free willed mercenaries. If you actually want to create a samurai and not just an "Orange Chicken Knight" as I like to call it, you should read up on their uses in combat and the practice of bushido.

The operative word here is 'Ronin'. :smallwink:

The Rogukan (OA) samurai is fine for Rokugan (which is manifestly not D&D-land).
The CWar samurai is just a bad joke.
The Tome Series samurai class is the only one I've seen that actually matters as a PC class in a D&D world which contains full progression casters and monsters with SLAs.

If you want a WOTC-made samurai: Warblade refluffed.

jmbrown
2009-11-27, 01:14 PM
By commiting ritual suicide. As you said, a samurai that is historically accurate is not an adventur clas. You are a feudal lord's b*** bound by honour. Sure, it could be fun, but playing them this way should be the exception, not the rule.

Yeah, seppuku could easily be rewritten to "Must take up a geas/quest to atone" but in all cases you were owned by someone higher than you.

A ronin, fluff wise, is a much better adventuring class. No alignment restriction, they retained their combat training, and most still practiced aspects of bushido (honesty, integrity, uphold honor, blah blah). The knight could be easily rewritten as a ronin but what special abilities you'd want to give him (which is what OP is looking for) I can't really say. If you want another mystical/magic far-eastern guy go ahead but these guys were warriors through and through.

Fhaolan
2009-11-27, 01:35 PM
The concept of Samurai changes quite a bit over time (much like the concept of Knight changes *a lot* in Europe over time). The original Samurai were Imperial bureaucrats of the 12th to 6th rank, it was simply a job title and had nothing to do with the Bushi warriors who had separate titles. This is why a lot of sources specify 'Samurai Warrior'. Because warrior wasn't assumed. That came much later.

And then after a point it shifted again, and it was possible to be from a Samurai family, be addressed as 'Samurai', without being a warrior at all. At that point it was a social class of varying levels of nobility, not a skill-set.

So basing a D&D class on the historical concept of Samurai is a bit of a boondoggle. No matter what you do, it will be 'wrong' somehow because someone will be able to pull some factoid out that may or may not be from a different period than what you used, and claim it to be the 'true' samurai.

Use the movie tropes. They're more fun. :smallsmile:

Gnaeus
2009-11-27, 02:55 PM
Without going into the (absolutely correct) historical definitions of a samurai listed above, I am going to assume based on your original post that you plan on keeping the TWF focus on the samurai.

I would give the samurai either pounce (full attack on charge) or allow him to attack with both weapons on a standard action, or both.

At 5th level I would allow him to spend a standard action to shrug off any hostile effect on him which is impeding his mission (like iron heart surge, for those with TOB). Once per battle, or a few times per day.

I would give him something to mitigate the lower damage from TWF style. Allowing him to use power attack at full (rather than half) on his off hand weapon might work, or bonus damage if he damages a target with both weapons in a round.

4 Skill points per level off an expanded list. Free skill focus a couple of times from a short list of diplomatic and courtly skills. Some kind of (marshal aura like) bonus to allies in battle who can hear him and benefit from his tactical leadership.

That feels like Tier 3 to me. At the very least it is top of tier 4.

AslanCross
2009-11-27, 04:39 PM
The Two-Weapon Fighting thing is honestly odd. If I'm not mistaken, it was actually very rare for samurai to fight with both of their swords. (It was only Musashi Miyamoto who really developed it as a fighting style.)

The Knight's Code could certainly take the place of Bushido. The Fighting Challenge, probably. The rest of the Knight's class features, however, don't really seem to resonate as "Samurai" to me.

A refluffed Warblade is probably the best way to go, albeit with one catch: Samurai were supposed to be good archers and horsemen, too. Warblade gets neither Ride nor bow proficiency.

Charlie Kemek
2009-11-27, 06:49 PM
The Two-Weapon Fighting thing is honestly odd. If I'm not mistaken, it was actually very rare for samurai to fight with both of their swords. (It was only Musashi Miyamoto who really developed it as a fighting style.)

The Knight's Code could certainly take the place of Bushido. The Fighting Challenge, probably. The rest of the Knight's class features, however, don't really seem to resonate as "Samurai" to me.

A refluffed Warblade is probably the best way to go, albeit with one catch: Samurai were supposed to be good archers and horsemen, too. Warblade gets neither Ride nor bow proficiency.

meh. just give the warblade the falling star discipline (just google it, use the one on giantitp), and you are set (maybe in exchange for another discipline). for ride, just take one of those ACF from cityscape.

Gnaeus
2009-11-27, 07:08 PM
Would it be really rude if I asked that we not debate the various ToB classes here? I mean, I don't want to be a jerk, but I don't even know what you're talking about, so it doesn't really help me.

Gentlemen, please stop discussing warblade. It does nothing for the OP.

Optimystik
2009-11-27, 07:22 PM
Gentlemen, please stop discussing warblade. It does nothing for the OP.

I prefer to look at it as "positive incentive to get ToB." Which he should.

He's free to skip over the posts that mention ToB after all, including this one. Those of us who do have it, are interested in the concept, and want to know how the ToB-savvy would execute it can benefit, even if the OP can't.