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ken-do-nim
2009-11-27, 01:34 PM
I had a greater invisible ninja do a full attack, then take a 5 foot step away so as to confuse his attacker as to his position. Anybody see any problems with allowing a move silent check on a 5 foot step? Or do you see this as an example of a -20 penalty?

MichielHagen
2009-11-27, 01:45 PM
I see no reason for a -20 penalty

Optimystik
2009-11-27, 01:45 PM
The -20 only applies to running and charging, so I see no problem with allowing move silently for a 5-foot-step.

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-27, 01:55 PM
I don't see how the penalty for moving as quickly as possible should apply when moving as slowly as possible.

I'd call for a check with no special penalties or bonuses, since he's moving at half speed or less.

Spiryt
2009-11-27, 02:04 PM
5 foot step is supposed to be very rapid "battle" movement, to change position in fight without giving enemy opportunities, and that's what you're planning to use it as.

So certainly, there should be penalty, but I'm not sure if it should be as high as - 20.


I'd call for a check with no special penalties or bonuses, since he's moving at half speed or less

He's most probably moving very quickly, shifting his position while attacking someone. It's most definetly not slow.

drengnikrafe
2009-11-27, 02:11 PM
I'd say it depends on the heat of the battle. If you're in a relatively loud area, or a battle with swords clanging left and right, I would be hard-pressed to hear a swift step away from me, especially if I couldn't see that which stabbed me. On the other hand, if I was just standing around and got stabbed, I would be considerably more likely to find the attacker.

ken-do-nim
2009-11-27, 02:18 PM
5 foot step is supposed to be very rapid "battle" movement, to change position in fight without giving enemy opportunities, and that's what you're planning to use it as.

So certainly, there should be penalty, but I'm not sure if it should be as high as - 20.



He's most probably moving very quickly, shifting his position while attacking someone. It's most definetly not slow.

My thoughts exactly. -10 compromise?

jmbrown
2009-11-27, 02:24 PM
I think you're confusing move silently with the snipe function of hide. You can roll move silently as part of a movement or "other activity" but when you attack you automatically end your hide.

Basically, in your position, your ninja full attacks someone and silently steps back. They're still exposed for the world to see until they make another hide check. If your character's invisible or whatever, the move silent check was made as part of their movement before their action.

jiriku
2009-11-27, 02:30 PM
At most I'd see a -2 circumstance penalty, but likely I'd rule it as no penalty at all. Attacking doesn't make it harder to move quietly after you're done attacking. The only real disadvantage the ninja is facing here is that, being only 10 feet away from his enemy, he's not far enough away to force a penalty to the Listen check for distance.

ghashxx
2009-11-27, 02:50 PM
Since hide checks are part of the movement then definitely allow a check, though even a -10 to their roll seems a little harsh. While it's supposed to be a swift movement, that's really not all that difficult to do over only 5'. The reason for moving quickly getting a whopping -20 to the check is that moving quickly over any significant distance is difficult. A 5' step just doesn't seem far enough to warrant a significant penalty, so maybe something more like a -5 instead of -10.

Eldariel
2009-11-27, 03:22 PM
-5 at most. But honestly, it's a quick adjustment; whatever action he's doing probably gives him a Hide-penalty, yes, but the adjustment itself should carry no penalty, especially since 5' adjustment is already limited to be undoable when your speed is reduced and thus you're doing it to easy terrain. So yeah, no penalties please.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-27, 03:58 PM
At most I'd see a -2 circumstance penalty, but likely I'd rule it as no penalty at all. Attacking doesn't make it harder to move quietly after you're done attacking. The only real disadvantage the ninja is facing here is that, being only 10 feet away from his enemy, he's not far enough away to force a penalty to the Listen check for distance.

Yes, yes it does. It's a -20 modifier.

Now, if you do the move silently in a different turn, you're fine...but if you're attacking and moving in the same turn, you take the penalty.


Also, my favorite bit from the SRD:
If people are observing you, even casually, you canít hide.

So, to even make the check, you have to justify why people are not in fact observing you, despite you being in a swordfight with them.

wadledo
2009-11-27, 04:10 PM
...Because he's invisible?:smallconfused:

Matthew
2009-11-27, 04:34 PM
I am in two minds about this, as it seems to me that using a five foot step to move silently separately from a full attack action is somewhat sidestepping (pun intended) the issue of when a counter attack takes place. A five foot step is taken as part of a full attack action, it is in effect a "miscellaneous action non action", so I think the move silently roll should be taken as part of the full attack action, rather than the five foot step. In that case, it seems to me that a penalty of some sort would be appropriate, probably in the realm of −10.

Teddy
2009-11-27, 05:01 PM
Yes, yes it does. It's a -20 modifier.

Now, if you do the move silently in a different turn, you're fine...but if you're attacking and moving in the same turn, you take the penalty.

Isn't stated anywhere in the skill description. A -20 only applies to running or charging.


Also, my favorite bit from the SRD:

So, to even make the check, you have to justify why people are not in fact observing you, despite you being in a swordfight with them.

If someone spots you and you don't make an effort of moving into new concealment or cover (or creating some for yourself), then they know exactly where you are and will allways succede on their spot checks against you. At least that's how I read it.

ericgrau
2009-11-27, 05:47 PM
The observer should know exactly where you were, then you move silently on the 5 foot step as normal which he may or may not hear. Yeah, that's fine.

The DM might ad hoc a penalty b/c it makes sense, though it's not necessary. If you count it as moving normally, it's a -5. If you count it as part of a full attack, it's either impossible to move silently at all (can't hide the sword stabs) or a -20 for vigorous activity.

Teddy
2009-11-27, 06:04 PM
The observer should know exactly where you were, then you move silently on the 5 foot step as normal which he may or may not hear. Yeah, that's fine.

Well, if you move away and hide (deeper into the shadows, bushes, etc.), then yes. If you just stand still while being observed, then it will be hard to hide (but not impossible if you're clever enough).


The DM might ad hoc a penalty b/c it makes sense, though it's not necessary. If you count it as moving normally, it's a -5. If you count it as part of a full attack, it's either impossible to move silently at all (can't hide the sword stabs) or a -20 for vigorous activity.

I wouldn't say that it makes sense that the penality would be different depending on what type of action the 5 foot step would be. I would say that the best solution would be to try to imagine what kind of manouvre the ninja would do and then ad hoc the DC based on that.

Cute_Riolu
2009-11-27, 06:27 PM
I think we're all forgetting one very important key factor in this; we're talking about a ninja!

ericgrau
2009-11-27, 10:27 PM
Well, if you move away and hide (deeper into the shadows, bushes, etc.), then yes. If you just stand still while being observed, then it will be hard to hide (but not impossible if you're clever enough).
I was assuming he was invisible or some such and only looking at move silently. By RAW you aren't allowed to hide after you've been observed without Hide in Plain Sight.




I wouldn't say that it makes sense that the penality would be different depending on what type of action the 5 foot step would be. I would say that the best solution would be to try to imagine what kind of manouvre the ninja would do and then ad hoc the DC based on that.

I only meant the penalty depends how you conceptualize the 5 foot step. If you consider it as moving normally separately from the full attack then there is no penalty. If you consider it as rapid movement then it's -5. If you consider it and the attack to be one motion then it's either -20 if the move is immediately afterwards or if they are melded together then you can't silence your blows so you automatically fail to be quiet regardless of rolls. When I replied I went with -0 as it requires the least amount of interpretation but I could easily see a DM claiming one of the other 3 cases (-5, -20, or "screw you, attacks always make noise"). In all 4 cases you are heard in your square before the step no matter what you roll. It's the new square where things are open to interpretation.

Myrmex
2009-11-27, 10:29 PM
I'd say it depends on the heat of the battle. If you're in a relatively loud area, or a battle with swords clanging left and right, I would be hard-pressed to hear a swift step away from me, especially if I couldn't see that which stabbed me. On the other hand, if I was just standing around and got stabbed, I would be considerably more likely to find the attacker.

That'd be reflected in a penalty to YOUR listen check, and has nothing to do with his move silent check, save how likely you are to hear it.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-27, 10:45 PM
The normal (no penalty) Move Silently check assumes you move no faster than half speed. That means you'd only make a 2.5' adjustment, which isn't going to get you anywhere. There's a confusing statement that at "less than your full speed, you take a -5 penalty" -- but you need to move at your full speed, not 99% of it. The official rules don't specify what the penalty is for that speed.

There is, however, precedent that the full speed penalty is also -5 for Hide and Move Silently, if you want to follow Skip Williams in his house rule. See this Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040622a) article.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-28, 08:00 PM
Isn't stated anywhere in the skill description. A -20 only applies to running or charging.

Or attacking. Which, if you're full attacking, you're doing.

Fitz10019
2009-11-29, 04:46 PM
Move Silently halves your movement rate. You can't 5ft-step at half speed. If you are 5ft-stepping, you are going full speed, and you take the -20 penalty. This is not an ambiguous sitation.

MichielHagen
2009-11-29, 05:18 PM
Move Silently halves your movement rate. You can't 5ft-step at half speed. If you are 5ft-stepping, you are going full speed, and you take the -20 penalty. This is not an ambiguous sitation.

That is your opinion, not a fact. That is not ambiguous.

In the description of "Move Silentlˇ" it does not say you take a -20 penalty when you move full speed. I says you take a -20 penalty when running or charging (that said, i too rule that it does).

Also, nowhere do i see mentioned that a 5-foot-step equals moving at full speed, and i do not see how you consider it a fact.

If a spell would half the targets movement, would you also disallow the affected character to take 5-foot-steps anymore?

Volkov
2009-11-29, 05:25 PM
I always assume the 5 foot step is really just a long step. It's pretty easy to be quiet with those. So that alone will not carry a penalty. But I question why you didn't use a repeating light crossbow from 30 feet, that's a better way to use a sneak attack.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-29, 05:51 PM
Move Silently halves your movement rate. Well, it could, but it doesn't have to.

You can't 5ft-step at half speed. Absolutely right.
If you are 5ft-stepping, you are going full speed, With you so far.
and you take the -20 penalty. This is not an ambiguous sitation. OK, now you've completely lost me. It's a -5 penalty to go at .999 of your normal hustle speed.
When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your full speed, you take a -5 penalty. So why would it suddenly jump from a -5 penalty to a -20 penalty to make that extra .001 of your speed? It's a -20 penalty if you're running:
When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line
Now, it's obviously his house rule put forth as a "Rules of the Game", but Skip Williams keeps the penalty at -5 for going at full speed. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Matthew
2009-11-29, 05:53 PM
I always assume the 5 foot step is really just a long step....

I think you would have to be rather long legged for that to be the case. More likely, it is a "pace" or two steps, one per leg.

Volkov
2009-11-29, 05:58 PM
I think you would have to be rather long legged for that to be the case. More likely, it is a "pace" or two steps, one per leg.

It could be a Ninja Giraffe..........<.< >.>

Curmudgeon
2009-11-29, 05:59 PM
Also, nowhere do i see mentioned that a 5-foot-step equals moving at full speed, and i do not see how you consider it a fact.
From Rules Compendium on page 90:
5-Foot Step

As long as your movement isnít hampered or prohibited, you can move 5 feet during a turn when you donít take any other kind of movement.
Going at half speed is hampered movement.

ericgrau
2009-11-29, 07:18 PM
If so you could move at full speed at a -5 penalty.

IMO that seems like the best RAW answer so far.

DonEsteban
2009-11-29, 09:05 PM
From the rules (Hide skill):
You can move up to one-half your normal speed at no penalty.

Making a 5-ft step is moving less than your half speed (15ft. or 10 ft.), usually. So speaking strictly RAW there should be no penalty.


From the rules again:
You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isnít hampered by difficult terrain or darkness.

Doesn't say anything about moving at half speed. A DM might think that this "feels wrong" and that it was meant that way and house rule a -5 penalty, but never a -20.

To all who claimed he cannot hide in plain sight: The original posting said "greater invisible"!

Mark Hall
2009-11-29, 10:36 PM
5 foot step is supposed to be very rapid "battle" movement, to change position in fight without giving enemy opportunities, and that's what you're planning to use it as.

I've always seen it as slower, actually... careful, allowing no opportunities as you moved.