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sofawall
2009-11-27, 03:56 PM
So, I'm wondering, what would win, a party of 20th level characters, or a Great Wyrm dragon? It seems like the Dragon is expected to win handily, but a nagging suspicion says otherwise.

I would like anywhere from one person to four people to run as a party. I would also like these people to suggest house-rules. We'll base it off of the ToS ruleset. Any changes you would like from that base ruleset (for example, some thing are banned because of the power at lower levels when gotten early), we can work it out and agree on it.

It will be PbP, 3.5, and unless anyone has any objections, or someone wants to volunteer, I will run the dragon. Let's say CR 24, to begin with. It will not be just a dragon, however, it will be a mini-adventure, forcing you to pick something other than mere dragon-killers. You must be able to handle a variety of challenges.

The dragon will use treasure rolled randomly from its hoard. Of the raw coinage left over (not art or magic items, for example), 10% will be used to purchase specific items, chosen by the DM.

Do we have any suggestions, easy things I forgot, advice, volunteers, etc?

ex cathedra
2009-11-27, 03:59 PM
I'm interested in playing a 20th level wizard under the ToS ruleset, preferably in a party of my peers. Running a party isn't my cup of tea.

sofawall
2009-11-27, 04:02 PM
Oh, actually I forgot to mention something I was meaning to. This is meant to go somewhat with the other thread. See what different rules, parties and dragons will do to the results.

Ponce
2009-11-27, 04:03 PM
Abjurer 3 / Master Specialist 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7

Dragon loses. Contest over.

Harperfan7
2009-11-27, 04:05 PM
Yeah, it can easily go either way. All a spellcaster needs is a high roll vs. SR and dragon a low roll vs. death. And a dragon can wipe out a party just as easily.

ex cathedra
2009-11-27, 04:11 PM
Abjurer 3 / Master Specialist 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7

Dragon loses. Contest over.

I was actually making an Abjurer 2 / Master Specialist 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 / Archmage 1. :smallredface:

mostlyharmful
2009-11-27, 04:15 PM
Yeah, it can easily go either way. All a spellcaster needs is a high roll vs. SR and dragon a low roll vs. death. And a dragon can wipe out a party just as easily.

Not always, by level 20 a full arcane caster should be pretty much immune to death.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-27, 04:25 PM
Abjurer 3 / Master Specialist 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7

Dragon loses. Contest over.

You'd be surprised. There's more than 1 dragon at that CR with 9th level spells. Barring that, it's just an attack that the Iot7V isn't aware of.

Tshern
2009-11-27, 04:27 PM
I am pretty sure the dragon loses every time against a party that optimises. Get a single damage dealer, one who specialises in protecting everyone else and two hardcore debuffers, including dispelling, and just kill the damn dragon. The action economy heavily favours the heroes and if the four casters, at level 20, are not prepared to take down a dragon, they suck.

However, what is ToS?

ex cathedra
2009-11-27, 04:31 PM
I am pretty sure the dragon loses every time against a party that optimises. Get a single damage dealer, one who specialises in protecting everyone else and two hardcore debuffers, including dispelling, and just kill the damn dragon. The action economy heavily favours the heroes and if the four casters, at level 20, are not prepared to take down a dragon, they suck.

However, what is ToS?

The Test of Spite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124216), a heavily balanced ECL13 PvP/Dungeoneering rules set, managed by DocRoc, contributed to by quite a few others.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-27, 04:32 PM
Test of spite, look for the thread somewhere here

Edit. never mind

Eldariel
2009-11-27, 04:34 PM
Basically an arena environment with cleaned-up version of 3.5 rules, run by none other than Doc Roc aka. Dr_Rocktopus from Gleemax. It hosts a variety of exhibition matches in addition to a sort of tournament for entries to dungeon instances and such.

Started as an environment for settling differences in opinion on class power and such. It's grown quite much, but still handles stuff like the Monk test, Fighter 20 vs. Wizard 13s and other...challenges around the board.


Link here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124216)

mostlyharmful
2009-11-27, 04:42 PM
does it damn well too, reason I hang out on the Gitp boards is cause of the general level of civility and willingness to be proved wrong, Doc Rocs testing grounds not perfect but it's about as close as you're going to get in a shared public space like this.

*gets out popcorn and smoothie and eagerly awaits stompy-smashy action*

Tshern
2009-11-27, 05:01 PM
The Test of Spite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124216), a heavily balanced ECL13 PvP/Dungeoneering rules set, managed by DocRoc, contributed to by quite a few others.
Ah, I wasn't familiar with the abbreviation, although I considered thaking the challenge under my wing some time ago. Clearly my knowledge of GitP events is not sufficient yet. Too bad I found myself busy with a number of projects dealing with D&D and my real life. Thanks for the information everyone.

AslanCross
2009-11-27, 05:07 PM
It's really impossible to say at face value. Great Wyrm Reds and Golds are still formidable 19th level Sorcerers. If the dragon didn't advance HD and instead took Wizard and Ultimate Magus levels, you're in for an interesting fight.

Tshern
2009-11-27, 05:13 PM
It's really impossible to say at face value. Great Wyrm Reds and Golds are still formidable 19th level Sorcerers. If the dragon didn't advance HD and instead took Wizard and Ultimate Magus levels, you're in for an interesting fight.
Sure, if you don't optimise. I am giving the action economy a chance here and believe the party will, in a way, outrun the dragon. The dragon casts as a 19th level Sorcerer while the party casts as a level 20 caster times four. Whatever the dragons get from their racial HD is not worth four characters.

Eldariel
2009-11-27, 05:16 PM
Sure, if you don't optimise. I am giving the action economy a chance here and believe the party will, in a way, outrun the dragon. The dragon casts as a 19th level Sorcerer while the party casts as a level 20 caster times four. Whatever the dragons get from their racial HD is not worth four characters.

Except it qualifies for epic feats due to HD, and epic caster feats due to 9th level spells; even cutting out Epic Spellcasting (I think we all know why), Multispell, Spell Stowaway, Permanent Emanation and company even up the action economy notably.

AslanCross
2009-11-27, 05:22 PM
Sure, if you don't optimise. I am giving the action economy a chance here and believe the party will, in a way, outrun the dragon. The dragon casts as a 19th level Sorcerer while the party casts as a level 20 caster times four. Whatever the dragons get from their racial HD is not worth four characters.

I said interesting, not an overwhelming "YOU WILL DIE" encounter. I'm certainly aware of action economy, having been burnt by it as a DM.

The OP doesn't specify what the party is, so I don't see why the party is made up of 4 20th level casters.

Granted, one optimized caster could win. If the dragon is optimized to the same caster level, I'd think it boils down to a matter of who rolls initiative first.

Tshern
2009-11-27, 05:43 PM
Except it qualifies for epic feats due to HD, and epic caster feats due to 9th level spells; even cutting out Epic Spellcasting (I think we all know why), Multispell, Spell Stowaway, Permanent Emanation and company even up the action economy notably.
Epic spellcasting would naturally tip the scales, but as you said, we might just as well leave it out.

Nevertheless, a great wyrm gold dragon has 41 HD and thus has seven epic feats. Spell stoaway is ineffective, because you have no idea what the players will use, Permanent emanation has only a few decent options and Multispell is still quite limited, because you need Automatic Quicken Spell to make it worth the investment. Sure, the dragon will be a threat and is not something that should be dismissed lightly, but I am still more than confident that a capable party would overrun it.

Schylerwalker
2009-11-27, 06:12 PM
How about, as opposed to a great wyrm dragon, a wyrm dragon and its very old to ancient mate? That would even things up considerably, in my opinion.

The point being, it doesn't make sense for a dragon to act alone. While dragons are proud, powerful creatures (And justly so), if they know the party is a group of incredibly powerful, successful adventures (And why shouldn't he? He's a dragon), he'll have gotten some help.

Also, what if the dragon is fighting in his own layer? Or in other favorable circumstances? A red dragon in a pool of water, a black dragon in a pool of acid, a gold dragon underwater...a white dragon in a freakin' blizzard! Dragons don't simply stand in a cave, arena-style, and say "Grah, fight me!!", when they know they can pick their field of battle and go from there.

A truly cunning dragon (Especially one with access to cleric spells) summons creatures and other allies before or even during the fight, at least to distract his opponents and make them use up their resources. And, don't forget, a dragon of such great age will have immense resources of his own at his disposal. Who's to say he doesn't launch an over-sized Iron Bands of Billarro at the wizard and just take him out of the fight?

My point being, dragons of this age are incredibly powerful, wealthy, and cunning opponents. They won't simply let the adventurers run in and mob them. They will make those stupid, meddlesome adventures bleed, cry, and sweat for every inch of ground into their lair.

arguskos
2009-11-27, 06:16 PM
Epic spellcasting would naturally tip the scales, but as you said, we might just as well leave it out.

Nevertheless, a great wyrm gold dragon has 41 HD and thus has seven epic feats. Spell stoaway is ineffective, because you have no idea what the players will use, Permanent emanation has only a few decent options and Multispell is still quite limited, because you need Automatic Quicken Spell to make it worth the investment. Sure, the dragon will be a threat and is not something that should be dismissed lightly, but I am still more than confident that a capable party would overrun it.
Uh... take Auto Quicken 3 times, and Multispell 4 times. BAM! No more action issues. That's not even that amazing, given what epic is capable of. Not sure it's quite as "lol the dragon dies" as you might think. But, that's just me. :smallwink:

Tshern
2009-11-27, 06:23 PM
Uh... take Auto Quicken 3 times, and Multispell 4 times. BAM! No more action issues. That's not even that amazing, given what epic is capable of. Not sure it's quite as "lol the dragon dies" as you might think. But, that's just me. :smallwink:
Something that a Ruby Knight Vindicator can already do, so it doesn't really matter. The dragon just blew away seven epic feats while the Cleric in question uses a couple of feats to get the same benefit.

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-27, 06:24 PM
Whatever level of preparation the party gets for this should be given to the dragon as well. Otherwise it will be completely one-sided.

One thing I'm worried about is the wealth. The PCs will have over 3 million gp, while the dragon will have about 170k, far less by a longshot.


Something that a Ruby Knight Vindicator can already do, so it doesn't really matter.

RKVs are limited to one extra swift action per round in the ToS ruleset.

Eldariel
2009-11-27, 06:26 PM
Epic spellcasting would naturally tip the scales, but as you said, we might just as well leave it out.

Nevertheless, a great wyrm gold dragon has 41 HD and thus has seven epic feats. Spell stoaway is ineffective, because you have no idea what the players will use, Permanent emanation has only a few decent options and Multispell is still quite limited, because you need Automatic Quicken Spell to make it worth the investment. Sure, the dragon will be a threat and is not something that should be dismissed lightly, but I am still more than confident that a capable party would overrun it.

For Spell Stowaway, I was thinking of Time Stop mainly since that's the principal action economy rape PCs have available, and with Spell Stowaway, PCs can't really use it efficiently ('cause the Dragon benefits just as much; spending an action to give you and your opponent an equal amount of turns seems like a bad trade) while the Dragon is free to Time Stop away.

I don't think any other Spell Stowaway is worth it, but I'm fairly sure Time Stop would come in handy. And yeah, the Dragon can at least somewhat match the PCs' casting. PCs cast ~9 and 6 each turn, Dragon can cast ~4-6 9s on its turn and if the Dragon uses Time Stop while thanks to Spell Stowaway limiting its usefulness to the party, he could actually be ahead on actions; provided he doesn't die before he gets a turn (which of course comes down to Initiative, equipment, Wards and so on; assuming a Great Wyrm uses most of its treasure for actual usable equipment and leaves just ~100000 gold pieces for a nice comfy bed, it can have decent defenses).

That said, none of this is true for any chromatic dragons except Great Wyrm Red; that's the only evil Dragon that has 9th level spells without class levels, and that's a CR 27 or something. CR 27 should be pretty tough for an optimized level 20 party. Good Dragons are, of course, better off in this regard with most of them qualifying by Great Wyrm-stage and many of them of substantially lower CR. Since epic feats for non-casters aren't amazing (I mean, Dire Charge and Exceptional Deflection are handy in this environment but other than that...), Dragons without 9th level spell access are just of vastly lower power level.


Of course, if we open sources beyond SRD, things change dramatically with PCs gaining access to a vast number of other action economy rapes and the Dragon having far more trouble containing them all. Then again, the Dragon gets more interesting epic feats like Epic Counterspell which enables infinite free action counterspells and such, so...yeah, things change.

Tshern
2009-11-27, 06:34 PM
Claudius Maximum: Thanks for pointing that out. Nevertheless, the Cleric would stand at three spells a round against the five of the dragon and we're just talking about one person of the party and the dragon has wasted all of its epic feats. And, as you accurately mentioned, the wealth is a big deal.

Eldariel: If the dragon ever gets the chance to use that. At epic levels I wouldn't go anywhere without Divine defiance, which pretty much nullifies whatever the dragon is trying to do.

How does the Test of Spite deal with Celerities? Just wondering.

Eldariel
2009-11-27, 06:36 PM
Eldariel: If the dragon ever gets the chance to use that. At epic levels I wouldn't go anywhere without Divine defiance, which pretty much nullifies whatever the dragon is trying to do.

It requires an immediate action though; the Dragon can cast more Time Stops than the party has Immediate Actions (I recall; I don't think there are relevant ways to get extra Immediate Actions). While Epic Counterspell is an action-free way to stop any spells.

Though of course, e.g. Battlemagic Perception, Eyes of the Oracle, Duelward and various other action-granting spells alter this dynamic greatly.


How does the Test of Spite deal with Celerities? Just wondering.

Through ban in the actual tournament, I recall. Though exhibition matches and the various challenges, depending on parameters, allow it (as their point is to showcase why it's banned, duh).

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-27, 06:43 PM
Celerity is not banned in the ToS at this time. You just can't obviate the daze it gives you by any means.

Tshern
2009-11-27, 06:43 PM
Even if the dragon gets the Time stop through, I really want to see it getting past all the defenses the party has in place.

Schylerwalker
2009-11-27, 06:45 PM
Even if the dragon gets the Time stop through, I really want to see it getting past all the defenses the party has in place.

Mordenkainen's Buttrape?

I mean Disjunction. Yes, that's what I meant.

ex cathedra
2009-11-27, 06:45 PM
Spells, Spell-Like Abilities, Maneuvers, and Powers


Celerity's dazing effect cannot be obviated even by immunity.




It's otherwise usable, but that significantly reduces the amount of exploits it can take part in.

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-27, 06:46 PM
If it wins initiative it can drop a Disjunction I suppose.

How would Spell Stowaway work with Celerity?

Eldariel
2009-11-27, 06:54 PM
It's otherwise usable, but that significantly reduces the amount of exploits it can take part in.

Oh... That doesn't stop e.g. the simple Arcane Fusion loop tho. Sigh. 'cause daze doesn't really matter once the fight is over.


As for "getting through all the defenses", at that point, it gets too convoluted. There are literally a thousand possible defenses available if we go outside Core and considering even a small fraction of them is just way too much to do without extensive mapping of spell effects and an actual party to consider and so on.

I mean, some weak party? They may just die to Maw of Chaos spam; Time Stop obviates most countermeasures available and beyond specific Spell Immunities, only SR, which a caster Dragon focusing on CL should be able to easily penetrate, is available as a defense.


Well-defended party with all the contingencies and few immortality combinations and automatic resurrections and so on? Bugger if I know. That would literally depend on a thousand-and-one things.

Probably impossible to efficiently kill them on the first Time Stop. It could put a strain on their defenses eating through many layers tho. Resolving a Disjunction would obviously be optimal. While it doesn't touch most items of an optimized party, it could take out most of the on-going buffs. But, **** it, I'm not going to spend the rest of the weekend figuring out a level 20 party's optimal configuration and defenses vs. the countermeasures available to a CR 27 Dragon.

Myrmex
2009-11-27, 06:54 PM
Can the dragon take CR +0 templates?
Because I would downgrade its HD to d10s and improve its sorcerer casting by +2 with Loredrake, then change it to wizard casting with Spell Hoarding.

Also, how much of triple CR 27 treasure can the dragon use?

sofawall
2009-11-27, 08:15 PM
Can the dragon take CR +0 templates?
Because I would downgrade its HD to d10s and improve its sorcerer casting by +2 with Loredrake, then change it to wizard casting with Spell Hoarding.

Also, how much of triple CR 27 treasure can the dragon use?

I think I answered that.

Milskidasith
2009-11-27, 08:21 PM
Uh... take Auto Quicken 3 times, and Multispell 4 times. BAM! No more action issues. That's not even that amazing, given what epic is capable of. Not sure it's quite as "lol the dragon dies" as you might think. But, that's just me. :smallwink:

Auto Quicken was erratta'd, I believe. Something like "0-1, 2-3, 4-5, 5-6, 6-7, and 8-9."

Still, multispell can be used to allow the dragon a lot better action abuse, assuming it's got wizard, not sorcerer, casting, or has the rapid spell variant.

Myrmex
2009-11-27, 08:46 PM
I think I answered that.

So you did.

arguskos
2009-11-27, 08:47 PM
Auto Quicken was erratta'd, I believe. Something like "0-1, 2-3, 4-5, 5-6, 6-7, and 8-9."

Still, multispell can be used to allow the dragon a lot better action abuse, assuming it's got wizard, not sorcerer, casting, or has the rapid spell variant.
Did it? Damn. Well, it was a good plan, now it sucks. :smallsigh: Thanks for the heads up though.

Myrmex
2009-11-27, 08:49 PM
Auto Quicken was erratta'd, I believe. Something like "0-1, 2-3, 4-5, 5-6, 6-7, and 8-9."

Still, multispell can be used to allow the dragon a lot better action abuse, assuming it's got wizard, not sorcerer, casting, or has the rapid spell variant.

I'd like to see that errata.
SRD has the following:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#automaticQuickenSpell

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-27, 08:57 PM
It wasn't errata, it was a reprint in Complete Arcane.

deuxhero
2009-11-27, 08:59 PM
Shivering touch x4.

Do the Pcs win yet or is it silver/white?

arguskos
2009-11-27, 09:00 PM
It wasn't errata, it was a reprint in Complete Arcane.
Apologies for the continued derail, but no, it wasn't. I just checked C. Arcane, and there's no Epic anythings in there anywhere. I'm fine with it being errata'd, I'd just like to see said errata/reprinting. Do you have a source, Milskidasith?

Myrmex
2009-11-27, 09:01 PM
Shivering touch x4.

Do the Pcs win yet or is it silver/white?

The AoO you provoked when moving close enough to touch him left you dead. You won't get a chance to deliver any of the attacks.

Regardless; energy immunity and/or scintillating scales and/or protection from ability damage.

deuxhero
2009-11-27, 09:04 PM
Archmage+reach.

But yeah, mostly a gag.

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-27, 09:06 PM
Apologies for the continued derail, but no, it wasn't. I just checked C. Arcane, and there's no Epic anythings in there anywhere. I'm fine with it being errata'd, I'd just like to see said errata/reprinting. Do you have a source, Milskidasith?

Apologies. I don't have access to my books at this time. I think it might be in Draconomicon.

Edit: Not any more. It's in Complete Arcane alright, right near the end.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-27, 10:09 PM
Problem is, even if the dragon gets access to Open sources, it doesn't outweigh the sheer amount of actions coming his way, from optimized 20's.

PC's get more from the books than Dragons. Yeah, Metabreath can be busted. Not as badly as a lot of the optimization techniques out there.

arguskos
2009-11-27, 10:12 PM
Apologies. I don't have access to my books at this time. I think it might be in Draconomicon.

Edit: Not any more. It's in Complete Arcane alright, right near the end.
Hot damn, I see it, packed in the back corner there. Fair enough. Thanks dude.

Schylerwalker
2009-11-27, 10:14 PM
The AoO you provoked when moving close enough to touch him left you dead. You won't get a chance to deliver any of the attacks.

Regardless; energy immunity and/or scintillating scales and/or protection from ability damage.

Spectral Hand.

Why does everyone ignore one of the best spells in the game that doesn't require an annoying to qualify for prestige class? Why?!?

Myrmex
2009-11-27, 10:15 PM
Spectral Hand.

Why does everyone ignore one of the best spells in the game that doesn't require an annoying to qualify for prestige class? Why?!?

Because it takes a turn to cast and is in a commonly banned school?

Milskidasith
2009-11-27, 10:29 PM
I could probably de-level my level 21 malconvoker for this fight. Then again, he's built for a one shot (lots of epic scrolls), instead of for an actual adventure, so it would take a lot of time to rework. I could probably just build something easier from scratch... incantatrix is probably banned, but I could go with an enhancement of my Halruaan elder + Practical metamagic combo for insane metamagic reduction.

Myrmex
2009-11-27, 10:35 PM
I could probably de-level my level 21 malconvoker for this fight. Then again, he's built for a one shot (lots of epic scrolls), instead of for an actual adventure, so it would take a lot of time to rework. I could probably just build something easier from scratch... incantatrix is probably banned, but I could go with an enhancement of my Halruaan elder + Practical metamagic combo for insane metamagic reduction.

You should probably just read the ToS rules.

Milskidasith
2009-11-27, 10:41 PM
You should probably just read the ToS rules.

Incantatrix is banned in ToS, which is why I said it would be banned here. Practical metamagic and halruaan elder, however, are not, and with full levels in halruaan and feats in practical I can effectively simulate incantatrix for quite a few metamagics, especially with bonus metamagic PrCs.

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-27, 11:02 PM
Just remember that neither of those can reduce the modifier to 0 or to a negative number.

Milskidasith
2009-11-27, 11:08 PM
That's what Arcane Thesis and absuable low level spells are for. (I know Arcane Thesis cannot reduce more than one spell by ToS rules).

industrious
2009-11-27, 11:19 PM
For Shivering Touch, if one was to use archmage's mastery of elements to make it a [Fire] spell, would it affect silver/whites?

Tshern
2009-11-28, 06:46 AM
Mordenkainen's Buttrape?

I mean Disjunction. Yes, that's what I meant.
Divine defiance. Or just about anything that blocks line of effect. Craft contingent spell is another nice choice.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 10:23 AM
Divine defiance. Or just about anything that blocks line of effect. Craft contingent spell is another nice choice.

Or a ring of spell-battle.