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Sesquame
2009-11-27, 06:09 PM
Ive been Dming a party of 4 level 5 characters (rogue, cleric, wizard, and two-blade ranger) and i need some help making the final fight less likely to cause a TPK but still make the dungeon worth a total of one level.

Fight as current: (1,600)
1 Deathpriest of Orcus with a Death Master template (800)
4 Wraiths (800)

Ive got a couple ideas to fix the current issue, which should I go with?
1) reduce the quest XP and take off the template to add an extra encounter beforehand.
2) reduce the defenses of the priest and increase HP.

Im leaning to the second one, but how much HP should i add when reducing AC and reflex by 1-2?

PS: they should be pretty much fresh in abilites, as they are getting an extended rest, then two easy encounters leading up to the last fight.

jmbrown
2009-11-27, 06:24 PM
What level are the PCs and why do you think they'll get their butts handed to them? Have they had trouble in encounters before?

If this is the final fight go all out. The PCs should win by the skin of their teeth. If a few people fall or even die, that makes the victory sweeter.

jiriku
2009-11-27, 06:28 PM
Chop the template, then add a simple encounter involving roleplaying, negotiating past a trap or obstacle, or solving a puzzle. Less threat, same XP.

gman
2009-11-27, 06:29 PM
If you're only worried about their getting enough xp to gain a level, I'd reccommend you just arbitrarily bump up the quest xp for clearing the dungeon.

erikun
2009-11-27, 06:30 PM
Um, wow. This is basically a level 9 encounter. The fact that the wraiths take half damage and +2 to AC (even after the deathpriest dies) makes it even harder. Not to mention the extra 4 minions from the Death Master template.

-2 to all defenses is equal to +10% to hit for all attacks, so a +10% to +20% bonus to HP would probably be fair.

I know there was a "solo transition" thread back when 4e first came out, because the stats on solos were a bit off. If you can find the thread, it might help you decide what changes to make.

Sesquame
2009-11-27, 06:35 PM
4 players, level 5

the problem here is that the priest totals up to an AC of 23, which is probably going to be out of reach. As for previous troubles, there was a VERY close call back at level 4 due to difficulty hitting an AC of 20. I dont know how much things changed though, as I found out recently they players had been calculating their bonuses incorectly and were quite a bit more accurate then they thought they were. However i dont know how much of a difference it will make.
By the way, theres a moderate chance of a surprise round, which i plan to give if the players succed on breaking the door on the first check (first check hard DC, second try easy)

Mando Knight
2009-11-27, 06:36 PM
i need some help making the final fight less likely to cause a TPK but still make the dungeon worth a total of one level.
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...Less likely to cause a TPK? Whose advice do you read?:smallconfused::smalltongue:

PS: they should be pretty much fresh in abilites, as they are getting an extended rest, then two easy encounters leading up to the last fight.
This shouldn't be a problem. Two easy encounters won't spend enough daily resources to matter for the final encounter.

Sesquame
2009-11-27, 06:41 PM
Um, wow. This is basically a level 9 encounter. The fact that the wraiths take half damage and +2 to AC (even after the deathpriest dies) makes it even harder. Not to mention the extra 4 minions from the Death Master template.

-2 to all defenses is equal to +10% to hit for all attacks, so a +10% to +20% bonus to HP would probably be fair.

I know there was a "solo transition" thread back when 4e first came out, because the stats on solos were a bit off. If you can find the thread, it might help you decide what changes to make.

I am aware from DMG II that elites no longer gain bonuses to defenses if thats what your reffering to, and I was considering having radiant damage strip insubstantial for a turn in addition to negating regeneration.

Im going to chop the template and reduce the priests defenses by 1, would that be enough or should i include the radiant-strips-insubstantial

erikun
2009-11-27, 06:59 PM
Radiant won't strip anything while the Death Master's aura is in effect - that's the problem. Although yes, having radiant remove insubstantial would make a lot of sense.

Can't hit AC 23 at level 5? They should have around 18 in their primary stat (+4), wielding an accurate weapon (+3), a magic weapon (+1), and getting half their level as a bonus (+2). So they should have around +10, or hitting on a 13 (40%). A few may have less, but it will be pretty easy to have over +15 if they worked on it.

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-27, 07:18 PM
Radiant won't strip anything while the Death Master's aura is in effect - that's the problem. Although yes, having radiant remove insubstantial would make a lot of sense.

Can't hit AC 23 at level 5? They should have around 18 in their primary stat (+4), wielding an accurate weapon (+3), a magic weapon (+1), and getting half their level as a bonus (+2). So they should have around +10, or hitting on a 13 (40%). A few may have less, but it will be pretty easy to have over +15 if they worked on it.

I've had characters with a +10 at level 2, with racial synergy. 23 doesn't sound too terrible, really. Plus, worth remembering, I'm pretty sure enemies with insubstantial should already pretty-much have that factored in to HP and so on.

Also, if they've still only got a +1 magic weapon by level 5, they're probably a bit down on loot. You are getting +2 from level 7 items, after all, so unless you are restricting them solely to what they are allowed to buy, they should be doing fine, I'd have thought.

Of course, if they're a little on the feeble side, with the better of them packing 16's, then all bets are off. :)

Yakk
2009-11-27, 07:28 PM
Downlevel the Deathpriest by 2 levels using the monster builder.

He's now worth 600 XP.

I'd use fewer Wraiths, and make them real Lurkers, coming through the walls to attack from behind, then retreating. Radiant damage should suppress phasing, and the Wraiths should try to flee and heal up once bloodied (showing up again in a few rounds).

A 1600 XP encounter:
Deathpriest (elite) 7 (600 XP)
Wraith 5 Lurker (200 XP)
Tomb Mote Swarms 7 Brute (300 XP)
5 Carcass Eaters 5 Minion (melee) (200 XP -- note, I used a 5:1 ratio instead of a 4:1 ratio, reflecting that melee minions are weaker than they should be)
Lasher Zombie 7 Soldier (300 XP)

Total: 1600.

The encounter starts with the Deathpriest guarded by a Lasher Zombie. As the battle begins, fragments of undead on the ground fly into the air, forming a tome mote swarm in the middle of the party.

The Lasher Zombie tries to lock down any defender-type the party has, and failing that, whatever it can by grabbing.

Out from a wall, the Wraith attacks the party from behind. The Wraith retreats back into the wall when bloodied and not rendered non-phasing by a radiant hit on the last round. (it keeps insubstantial) The Wraith will stay hidden in the wall/floor until it regens up, or a party member is beaten unconscious -- in which case, it will try to kill that party member in order to raise another Wraith (yes, I'm evil).

The Carcass Eaters burrow out of the ground on the 2nd round, attacking whatever player was hurt the most on the first round in a 5-on-one pile on. They keep chewing after the player goes down...

This should make the situation nicely chaotic, with the party being attacked from all sides at once. But (except for the Carcass eaters), the bad guys won't be doing much damage concentration: so the players should do pretty well.

There is a mix of creature types. 9 minions, one soldier, one swarm, one lurker, and the deathpriest. This should keep things mixed up, as fighting each critter will act differently.

Sesquame
2009-11-27, 08:51 PM
Radiant won't strip anything while the Death Master's aura is in effect - that's the problem. Although yes, having radiant remove insubstantial would make a lot of sense.

Can't hit AC 23 at level 5? They should have around 18 in their primary stat (+4), wielding an accurate weapon (+3), a magic weapon (+1), and getting half their level as a bonus (+2). So they should have around +10, or hitting on a 13 (40%). A few may have less, but it will be pretty easy to have over +15 if they worked on it.

I recently found out the players werent adding in implement bonuses, so that should make things easier. Only problem is i dont know how much of a change that will cause. This fight is 3-4 sessions away though, so i have time to tweak

EDIT: Yakk, where could I find the stats for those monsters? Im currently limited to Monster Manual I and II, are they in those? I havent had a chance to check yet.

Mando Knight
2009-11-27, 09:28 PM
The ones that aren't in the MM I or II are most likely in the excellent Undead supplement Open Grave (aka Libris Mortis for Fourth Edition) or in another supplement such as published adventures or DDI.

Either way, getting DDI is the easiest way to cope, granting you access to the Monster Builder (making monster-making easier) and the Compendium (just-as-quick access to everything, including character options, monsters, and traps).

Yakk
2009-11-27, 09:48 PM
I just grabbed them from the compendium. Search for undead, levels 3 to 8, normal and then minion, and found ones that looked interesting.

If you are restricted to MM I and II, I'd have to do another pass.

Say, 1 Whitherlings (175), 1 Ghoul (200), Deleveled boss (600), 1 Wraith (300), a Mad Wraith (350).

Have the Wraith/Mad Wraith attack from the rear, with the Witherling and Ghoul and Boss in the front.

Not quite as chaotic, but still evil. (Mad Wraith might actually make it too hard with that sick aura).