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View Full Version : What exactly is Dazed? [3.X]



Dacia Brabant
2009-11-27, 07:12 PM
This is something that's been bugging me lately, not because I want to have an easy way of getting Daze immunity on a character and spam Celerity or Wild Surges, but because I just don't get what this condition is supposed to represent. All it says is "the creature is unable to act normally" but has no penalty to AC so presumably is still in possession of its wits and motor functions. There's nothing that explains why this happens, other than maybe in the flavor text of abilities that cause it.

It's not mind-affecting as such (mindless creatures aren't immune to it unless it's delivered via an Enchantment [Compulsion] spell or effect), nor is it anatomical (creatures without a Constitution score, incorporeal and amorphous creatures aren't immune either). So what kind of an effect is it then? Inquiring minds want to know!

Sorry if I killed any catgirls with this post.

erikun
2009-11-27, 07:13 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazed

"The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC."

[edit] Reading fail on my part.

Anyways, I consider it just being knocked upside the head. You're still able to move around, you just aren't coherent enough to do anything meaningful.

I guess it's similar to status effects like stun. My guess is the reason for daze is "not as bad as stun but still too out of it to do anything meaningful." It's kind of like Fatigued and Exahusted, to similar effects with the only difference being one is worse.

arguskos
2009-11-27, 07:16 PM
@OP: Dazed is, to be honest, a game-balancing mechanic through and through. There isn't much that makes any damn sense, from an in-game viewpoint. As I understand it, a dazed creature just sorta wobbles in place, swaying a little bit. They'd keep their Dex score, since they instinctually react to attacks, but they can't actively defend themselves.

Devils_Advocate
2009-11-27, 07:19 PM
I don't think that it actually represents any real-life phenomenon. It may have similarities to several, but it doesn't really consistently correspond to any one of them.

You know, like hit points and damage.

Dacia Brabant
2009-11-27, 07:33 PM
@OP: Dazed is, to be honest, a game-balancing mechanic through and through.

Yeah this is basically what I thought, but (and I don't want to go into the whole gamist vs. simulationist hoohah) that's the sort of explanation that breaks suspension of disbelief for me. That and it's just glaring to me that the definition of Dazed as written has no cause attributed to it. It's not like a stun because it hits mindless things, it's not like fatigue because it hits lifeless things, and it's not like flatfooted because it doesn't hurt your AC, it's a status effect for the sake of having a status effect.


Well all right, I'll buy that it doesn't need to have a real-life analogue, lots of things in the game don't. Maybe it's just getting hit by the Power of Awesome. But is it a necessary mechanic to have for balancing the game?

Myrmex
2009-11-27, 07:33 PM
Turns also don't make a whole lot of sense, given the simultaneity of RL.

In that context, being dazed is just losing an action. You're slower to react, off balance, can't make up your mind, etc.

arguskos
2009-11-27, 07:45 PM
Well all right, I'll buy that it doesn't need to have a real-life analogue, lots of things in the game don't. Maybe it's just getting hit by the Power of Awesome. But is it a necessary mechanic to have for balancing the game?
In my opinion, yes. It's VERY HARD to negate, almost nothing does it. I know of only one spell that does, and that's Favor of the Martyr, a very specific spell with some drawbacks. It doesn't come up much though. I think Dazed is a fine condition, overall.

Dacia Brabant
2009-11-27, 08:24 PM
In my opinion, yes. It's VERY HARD to negate, almost nothing does it. I know of only one spell that does, and that's Favor of the Martyr, a very specific spell with some drawbacks. It doesn't come up much though. I think Dazed is a fine condition, overall.

What about White Raven Hammer, is that balanced? :smalltongue:

I'd probably be happier with the condition if it were mostly caused by things that you do to yourself, like using a spell, power or supernatural ability that's overly taxing and makes you pause briefly to recharge or reorient yourself. As opposed to, say, getting hit over the head real hard.

arguskos
2009-11-27, 08:26 PM
It... mostly IS caused by stuff you do to yourself? White Raven Hammer says stunned. Not sure what you're getting at with that one?

Optimystik
2009-11-27, 08:27 PM
...can't make up your mind...

This seems to me the best way to fluff it. It captures both the "can't be proactive" and the "can still be reactive" aspects.

Dacia Brabant
2009-11-27, 08:39 PM
It... mostly IS caused by stuff you do to yourself? White Raven Hammer says stunned. Not sure what you're getting at with that one?

Apologies, I'm AFB, I thought that was the one that dazes the target. I can't remember which one does that now.

Then there's Dazing Blow but I guess that's not as bad since it's a monster's ability rather than a class's.

Edit: oh, and of course Blasphemy, but again mostly something that'd be used against the players rather than by them (other than in an evil campaign).

arguskos
2009-11-27, 08:41 PM
Apologies, I'm AFB, I thought that was the one that dazes the target. I can't remember which one does that now.

Then there's Dazing Blow but I guess that's not as bad since it's a monster's ability rather than a class's.
'sok. Honestly, Daze isn't so bad. It's always for a short duration, it's a strong mechanic, and it's so rare that it doesn't really come up much. I think it's probably fine as is.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-27, 08:43 PM
You know, like hit points and damage.

Good analogy IMO. Daze, much like HP, does not have a single unifying definition (see: gamism v. simulationism v. ridiculousness) In any given situation, you can likely justify it somehow (mental effect on undead, physiological effect with mindless, etc.), but it's never defined clearly.

Drekk
2009-11-27, 08:47 PM
As far as some real-life equivalent...I'd always thought of it as the sensation you get when you stand up too fast after sitting or lying down for a long time. The fuzzy-headed, disconnected from your body sensation from all the blood rushing away from your head. You're slightly disabled and generally stand put until the sensation goes away, but you could react if someone were swinging at you. :smallcool:

Sir_Elderberry
2009-11-27, 09:36 PM
As far as some real-life equivalent...I'd always thought of it as the sensation you get when you stand up too fast after sitting or lying down for a long time. The fuzzy-headed, disconnected from your body sensation from all the blood rushing away from your head. You're slightly disabled and generally stand put until the sensation goes away, but you could react if someone were swinging at you. :smallcool:

This. A person who is dazed has lost focus, motivation, or energy to the point that they can't really bring themselves to DO something...but they could still react if their spinal chord had to trigger the right muscles.

ericgrau
2009-11-27, 10:12 PM
It's the same way you are between turns, but also during your turn. It's your character saying "Huh, what momma?" without being knocked out. i.e., you're too out of it to take any actions but not so bad that you can't dodge blows or hold on to what you're carrying. That's why most daze effects only last 1 round.

Tengu_temp
2009-11-27, 10:24 PM
That status was initially supposed to be called Armless: you have no arms and therefore are unable to act for one round, but you can still move around and retain your AC. Don't worry, they will regrow in the next round!

They changed it to Dazed because of all the creatures that don't have arms anyway. And monks, who can kick even without arms.

Optimystik
2009-11-27, 10:27 PM
They changed it to Dazed because of all the creatures that don't have arms anyway. And monks, who can kick even without arms.

And Totemists, who can grow more arms.

And Psions, who can... yeah.

Sliver
2009-11-28, 02:08 AM
I just think of it as the turn where your character stops and thinks "WTF is going on?". He can still react to danger coming his way, but he is just too confused to do anything else.. I donno, as if he was hit by all /b/ content at the same time..

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-28, 02:10 AM
I just think of it as the turn where your character stops and thinks "WTF is going on?". He can still react to danger coming his way, but he is just too confused to do anything else.. I donno, as if he was hit by all /b/ content at the same time..That would strike me as Sickened, Frightened, and Stunned.

And maybe unconscious or dead.

Devils_Advocate
2009-11-28, 02:33 AM
(see: gamism v. simulationism v. ridiculousness)
Ooh, ooh! I cast my vote for ridiculousness! Go beyond the impossible and take absurdity to the limit! Don't believe in you; believe in me, who believes in you! :smallcool:

Zaq
2009-11-28, 03:21 AM
I see Dazed as a moment of distraction. Something's hit you, and your brain is just too busy going "Gah! What the hell?!" to actually do anything. You're not brain-blanking (that'd be Stunned), so you can still defend yourself, but you've been distracted from what you were actually trying to do. Basically, you're flinching hard enough to not do anything. I don't even have that hard of a time believing that mindless things can be made to flinch.