PDA

View Full Version : Radiant Servant of Pelor build



AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-27, 11:03 PM
I know I look like a tool, but now that I have a direction, I need a list of ways to make a usable Cleric 20 RSoP10 that can defeat any undead from a lowly zombie to a demilich.

The Race I want to use: Any but human or elf (Preferably a Good-aligned extraplanar, but I digress)

Template: Saint (Wis bonus, Outsider, ect.)

Classes: see above

Feats: any book
Spells: Any book but Vile Darkness
Weapons and Armor: Same Idea
Magic Items: Any

Thank you for your time

erikun
2009-11-27, 11:40 PM
Errr....

It isn't very difficult for a Radiant Servant to deal with undead. They get an additional 3 + Charisma modifier Greater Turning attempts just for entering the class. This means that, unless you pick up the Extra Turning feat, then every turning check you make will destroy any undead it turns (since you can make every turn check into a Greater Turning). Just turn it until it is dusted.

Why not human? Their bonus feat is one of the best things a cleric can get.

Beyond that, a lot of cleric pick up Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine) so that they can spend turning checks to power their spells with metamagic, rather than higher level spell slots. Persistent Divine Metamagic is the most talked about (all day buffs) but if you find another metamagic you like better, you can Divine Metamagic that one, too.

Nightstick abuse grants you extra turning attempts for each Nightstick, but is frequently banned by most DMs.

Other than that, just look through Complete Divine. There are lots of good feats and spells available - just pick the ones you like.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-27, 11:45 PM
You still need Disjunction, because if he's got any sense at all, he'll have Lifeward active, rendering him immune to turning.

Aside from that, you just need to get your turning check high enough. There's several items in MIC that can help there, as well as Libris Mortis.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-27, 11:48 PM
Errr....

It isn't very difficult for a Radiant Servant to deal with undead. They get an additional 3 + Charisma modifier Greater Turning attempts just for entering the class. This means that, unless you pick up the Extra Turning feat, then every turning check you make will destroy any undead it turns (since you can make every turn check into a Greater Turning). Just turn it until it is dusted.

Why not human? Their bonus feat is one of the best things a cleric can get.

Beyond that, a lot of cleric pick up Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine) so that they can spend turning checks to power their spells with metamagic, rather than higher level spell slots. Persistent Divine Metamagic is the most talked about (all day buffs) but if you find another metamagic you like better, you can Divine Metamagic that one, too.

Nightstick abuse grants you extra turning attempts for each Nightstick, but is frequently banned by most DMs.

Other than that, just look through Complete Divine. There are lots of good feats and spells available - just pick the ones you like.

1.Okay. So basically, how do I "bypass" Turn Resistance?
2. I HATE the D&D human. Its too underpowered. I was thinking an Aasamir could be fun.
3. Right, so I've heared
4. How's Complete Champ and Exalted Deeds on feats, because Exalted Turning deals bonus damage

Coidzor
2009-11-27, 11:53 PM
1.Okay. So basically, how do I "bypass" Turn Resistance?
2. I HATE the D&D human. Its too underpowered. I was thinking an Aasamir could be fun.

1. Up your Turning Check, as far as I know anyway, that's an intrinsic feature of the specific undead that can't be messed with. So not bypassed, just overcome. It just inflates what you have to beat to be able to turn it is all anyway.

2. That feat is pretty durn powerful.

Exterminatus
2009-11-27, 11:56 PM
2. I HATE the D&D human. Its too underpowered. I was thinking an Aasamir could be fun.

Wait an extra feat at first level is not worth it while still being LA +0?

Edit: Ninjaed.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-27, 11:59 PM
To all: I hate the D&D human, reguardless of variant, save Vashara. Human is kind of, "not spectacular" in any way. I mean, he's trumped by the bloody elf for Pelor's sake

and plus, human is overdone in EVERY build under Pelor's all seeing eyes.

erikun
2009-11-28, 12:00 AM
A lich has +4 turn resistance but +4 LA. Thus, a ECL 30 Lich is actually only a Wizard 26. You would turn him as any other CR 30 creature. It is highly unlikely that you get less than a 10 on your turning check if you spend some of your (absurdly high) WBL on CHA boosts.

Turning damage is 2d6 + Cleric levels + Radiant Servant levels (explicitly stack) + Charisma modifier. That's going to be well over 30 right there. Even if your opponent counters that you can't add Cleric + Radiant Servant to above 20, your CHA modifier should still be +10, making it moot.

As The Glyphstone mentioned, you'll want some way to use Disjunction, in case they have some kind of turning immunity.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-28, 12:05 AM
To all: I hate the D&D human, reguardless of variant, save Vashara. Human is kind of, "not spectacular" in any way. I mean, he's trumped by the bloody elf for Pelor's sake


Care to show us how he is trumped?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 12:06 AM
A lich has +4 turn resistance but +4 LA. Thus, a ECL 30 Lich is actually only a Wizard 26. You would turn him as any other CR 30 creature. It is highly unlikely that you get less than a 10 on your turning check if you spend some of your (absurdly high) WBL on CHA boosts.

Turning damage is 2d6 + Cleric levels + Radiant Servant levels (explicitly stack) + Charisma modifier. That's going to be well over 30 right there. Even if your opponent counters that you can't add Cleric + Radiant Servant to above 20, your CHA modifier should still be +10, making it moot.

As The Glyphstone mentioned, you'll want some way to use Disjunction, in case they have some kind of turning immunity.

1. What of Demiliches or Atopal?
2. So make Wis my highest and Cha my second? Plus, y'all forgot Saint.
3. Don't Clerics get that spell? If not, is there a rod or staff or something that I can get to do that?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-28, 12:07 AM
Magic Disjunction is only available from domains, such as the Magic domain.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 12:08 AM
Care to show us how he is trumped?

I belive Dave Noonan said on the Drow of the Underdark podcast that "Elves are just better humans"

Elves ger stat boosts, immunities, resistances, skill bonuses, and proficiencies

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 12:10 AM
Magic Disjunction is only available from domains, such as the Magic domain.

Which I can't take, because I've already got Sun, Knowledge (Cloistered), Healing, and Protection, unless I should forgo protection for magic

Kylarra
2009-11-28, 12:10 AM
Just take levels in Contemplative (CD)

Faleldir
2009-11-28, 12:13 AM
and plus, human is overdone in EVERY build under Pelor's all seeing eyes.
The Burning Hate loves humans. Have you ever seen Zarus' symbol? Something fishy is going on...

SparkMandriller
2009-11-28, 12:13 AM
2. I HATE the D&D human. Its too underpowered. I was thinking an Aasamir could be fun.

Waaaaaay too obvious bro. Go make a monk thread, those work much better.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-28, 12:14 AM
I belive Dave Noonan said on the Drow of the Underdark podcast that "Elves are just better humans"
I believe the great Pharaoh's Fist said on these very boards that "Humans are better than those pointy eared hippies".

Elves ger stat boosts
And penalties!

, immunities, resistances
Rather more situational than a bonus feat

skill bonuses
Humans get more skill points

and proficiencies
If you're going to hit things, you already have proficiencies from your class. If you're not going to hit things, it doesn't matter what proficiencies you have.

Temotei
2009-11-28, 12:14 AM
Elves ger stat boosts, immunities, resistances, skill bonuses, and proficiencies

Crappy stat boosts, sleep immunities, which comes rarely, resistances against fairly good spells and effects, admittedly, skill bonuses which are trumped by the human's, and proficiencies that aren't really helpful. The only classes that get benefits from those proficiencies are the cleric and rogue. Maybe bard. Humans get a feat, which is huge.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 12:14 AM
Just take levels in Contemplative (CD)

Has no bonuses to Turn Undead

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-28, 12:15 AM
Has no bonuses to Turn Undead

It gives a bonus domain, which I believe was the point he was addressing.

erikun
2009-11-28, 12:16 AM
I'm familiar with Demiliches and Atopal, but don't have the book their located in. (I think) You'll need to look them up yourself to see what their Turn Resistance vs. LA is. Also, Atopal is an epic CR monster. The LA on such a thing would be well over LA+30, and I seriously doubt it even has a LA.

Yes, WIS first for any cleric. CHA should be a priority, but epic characters can just buy an item for +10 CHA. 15 Charisma to start, one Tome of CHA boost +5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tomeofLeadershipandInfluence), and a +10 CHA headband gives you 30 Charisma, which is enough for a guaranteed turning against anything level-equilivant.

I'm not forgetting Saint, I'm just not familiar with Saint. I'm assuming it's a template from Book of Exalted Deeds, which is why I'm not familiar with it.

If you can forgo Protection for Magic, do so. Using the goodies from arcane staffs as a 15th level wizard? Who wouldn't want to toss out Walls of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/staffs.htm#power) whenever they wanted?

Milskidasith
2009-11-28, 12:17 AM
Proficiencies make elf better than human for the chaos shuffle. There, I said it.

Kylarra
2009-11-28, 12:21 AM
Has no bonuses to Turn Undead
If you're killing cleric levels for LA and/or races, then you can afford to kill one cleric level to take contemplative for access to disjunction.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 12:22 AM
Everybody's a critic. I just dislike Humans. Is that blasphemous?

anywho, so basically, run a Cloistered Cleric of Pelor 20/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10

Use any feats that deal bonus damage during a Turn

Domains: Sun, Magic, Knowledge, Healing

Items: Nightstick, ect.

Weapon: Pelor's Favorite Weapon w/ Keen, Sacred Burst, and Brilliant Energy
Armor: ?????

Temotei
2009-11-28, 12:27 AM
Proficiencies make elf better than human for the chaos shuffle. There, I said it.

Indeed. Too bad they suck for everything else, and Fiendish Codex I is one of those books that is rarely used, at least in my experience.


Everybody's a critic. I just dislike Humans. Is that blasphemous?

BLASPHEMY! You bet it is.

Milskidasith
2009-11-28, 12:29 AM
Indeed. Too bad they suck for everything else, and Fiendish Codex I is one of those books that is rarely used, at least in my experience.



BLASPHEMY! You bet it is.

HOLY WORD! What's your caster level?

erikun
2009-11-28, 12:32 AM
No brilliant energy - a brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead. You also can't critical undead, so keen wouldn't be that good. Undead Bane, Disruption, Ghost Touch, and Holy are good choices.

Zen Archery feat will allow you to use WIS for attack rolls with a bow. Doesn't apply to Pelor (his weapon is a mace) but it's food for thought.

For armor, I'm sure there is something that activates a Death Ward effect when hit with level/ability drain. Not sure where. There is also the Death Ward spell. Isn't there a deflection enchantment to add the armor bonus to touch attacks?

(Greater) Turning doesn't deal damage. The options are either "resisted" or "dusted". I mean, you could pick up the Empower Turning feat from Complete Divine, but you're already working off +40 to the check. (and need to beat 30 for success) Quicken Turning would be a better option.


I have to be honest, Air Guitar. How familiar are you with Clerics? How familiar are you with D&D 3.5e? I'm not talking about the human-elf conversation, but a number of your comments (such as "damage during a Turn") indicate that you aren't that familiar with the system.

Temotei
2009-11-28, 12:33 AM
HOLY WORD! What's your caster level?

UNHOLY AURA! I don't know. So far, at least 15. What be yours?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 12:35 AM
BLASPHEMY! You bet it is.

...

Really? Do you really claim that I am a blasphemous pig? lol.Your lack of faith in Pelor is Disturbing...

Temotei
2009-11-28, 12:40 AM
Your lack of faith in Pelor is Disturbing...
I sense a disturbance in the force.
Indeed. I'm more of a Heironeous kind of guy. Or Fharlanghn. He makes me happy. :elan:

Jokasti
2009-11-28, 12:42 AM
Naturally he'd be evil. Because you can't have a cleric with alignment issues with the god.

Milskidasith
2009-11-28, 12:42 AM
UNHOLY AURA! I don't know. So far, at least 15. What be yours?

HOLY AURA? (Dunno that spell). I cast it from a scroll at the max CL I could afford for one consumable, it's about CL 80 and is repeated, twinned, and quickened, with other metamagics and such too that aren't as important (transdimensional, for instance.)

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 12:42 AM
No brilliant energy - a brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead. You also can't critical undead, so keen wouldn't be that good. Undead Bane, Disruption, Ghost Touch, and Holy are good choices.

Zen Archery feat will allow you to use WIS for attack rolls with a bow. Doesn't apply to Pelor (his weapon is a mace) but it's food for thought.

For armor, I'm sure there is something that activates a Death Ward effect when hit with level/ability drain. Not sure where. There is also the Death Ward spell. Isn't there a deflection enchantment to add the armor bonus to touch attacks?

(Greater) Turning doesn't deal damage. The options are either "resisted" or "dusted". I mean, you could pick up the Empower Turning feat from Complete Divine, but you're already working off +40 to the check. (and need to beat 30 for success) Quicken Turning would be a better option.


I have to be honest, Air Guitar. How familiar are you with Clerics? How familiar are you with D&D 3.5e? I'm not talking about the human-elf conversation, but a number of your comments (such as "damage during a Turn") indicate that you aren't that familiar with the system.

1. So Sacred's bonus to undead turning is out as well?
2. Dunno
3. I mean feats like Exalted Turning, which adds 3d6 damage on top of turning
4. I am, I just last ran a Half-Giant Golaith Paladin5/Knight2/Cavallier1 (note to any who read: Half Giant was a Homebrew Template that stacked Powerful Build). I've actually always admired the Cleric, just never got around to running 1

jiriku
2009-11-28, 12:57 AM
Aha! The undead disintigrator of Pelor. One of my favorite builds. Allow me to share with you:

You can improve yourself in seven ways: improve your Charisma bonus, improve your ability checks (a turn check is an ability check), improve your effective cleric level, improve your number of turning damage dice, debuff undead to reduce their effective hit dice, obtain rerolls in case your turning check goes poorly, and get extra turn attempts.

FEATS
Empower Turning, Extra Turning, Heighten Turning, Improved Turning

SKILLS
Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks for synergy bonus to turn checks

DOMAINS
Sun Domain, Glory domain

SPELLS
alter fortune (SC), benediction (CC), consecrate, eagle's splender, insight of good fortune (SC), light of faith (CC), light of wisdom (CC), light of purity (CC), moment of prescience, surge of fortune (CC), visage of the deity, lesser (SC), visage of the deity, greater (SC)

ITEMS
cloak of charisma, circlet of persuasion, ephod of authority (MiC), phylactery of undead turning, nightstick, reliquary holy symbol

Probably the most effective route is to use surge of fortune for an automatic nat 20 on your turn check, netting +4 effective hit dice, then using Improved Turning, the phylactery, and a consecrate on a holy relic for an additional +11. Burn a light of purity for additional mojo and you'll turn up to character level+15+1/4 CL in hit dice, while rolling 3d6+ character level+15+1/3 CL+Cha for turning damage. At level 30 you should be able to instantly turn a 50 HD undead to dust.

erikun
2009-11-28, 12:57 AM
Fair enough. Turn Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead)

As you can see, you need to make two rolls to turn an undead creature. The first roll is the Turning Check, and determines the strongest undead you can turn. It is a 1d20 + CHA roll, with 10 or higher indicating you'll be able to turn something at least your level. This is why I recommended a +10 for CHA; it guarantees you'll be able to turn a level 30 undead. If you can get this check (the Turning Check, not the Turning Damage) up higher without the extra CHA, you won't need to invest as much into CHA.

The second roll is the Turning Damage, and determines how many undead (total) you can turn. This makes a big difference against large groups of undead, but against only one lich (and maybe some followers) you just need to beat their level. The roll is 2d6 + level + CHA.

This is why I'm not worried about damage. You're already doing +30 due to levels, and another +10 from high CHA. The 2d6 could be anything, but even with a minimal 1,1 you have a total of 42. This is well over the level 30 you'll be facing, so you don't need to concern yourself with this roll.

Anything you roll higher than will be turned. Becuase you will be using a Greater Turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#sunDomain), anything turned is automatically destroyed. You don't need to be dealing damage on something that gets auto-nuked.

I'm not sure what "Sacred's bonus to undead turning" even is, so I won't comment on it. Read if it applies to the Turning Check or the Turning Damage for your answer.

Milskidasith
2009-11-28, 01:00 AM
Take a Scepter of command (or something of command, Miniatures handbook) and an admiral's bicorne for a +10 to charisma checks total. Turn undead gets a lot easier with that.

EDIT: Remember, demiliches have turn resistance 20, so it takes a turn of 40 to beat them.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 01:04 AM
Fair enough. Turn Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead)

As you can see, you need to make two rolls to turn an undead creature. The first roll is the Turning Check, and determines the strongest undead you can turn. It is a 1d20 + CHA roll, with 10 or higher indicating you'll be able to turn something at least your level. This is why I recommended a +10 for CHA; it guarantees you'll be able to turn a level 30 undead. If you can get this check (the Turning Check, not the Turning Damage) up higher without the extra CHA, you won't need to invest as much into CHA.

The second roll is the Turning Damage, and determines how many undead (total) you can turn. This makes a big difference against large groups of undead, but against only one lich (and maybe some followers) you just need to beat their level. The roll is 2d6 + level + CHA.

This is why I'm not worried about damage. You're already doing +30 due to levels, and another +10 from high CHA. The 2d6 could be anything, but even with a minimal 1,1 you have a total of 42. This is well over the level 30 you'll be facing, so you don't need to concern yourself with this roll.

Anything you roll higher than will be turned. Becuase you will be using a Greater Turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#sunDomain), anything turned is automatically destroyed. You don't need to be dealing damage on something that gets auto-nuked.

I'm not sure what "Sacred's bonus to undead turning" even is, so I won't comment on it. Read if it applies to the Turning Check or the Turning Damage for your answer.

Here's Sacred:

Libris Mortis[/I]]Sacred: Upon command, a sacred weapon is sheathed in luminous
positive energy. This energy does not harm the wielder unless
it is undead, in which case it takes 1 point of Charisma damage
per round it holds the weapon when it is so energized. The effect
remains until another command is given. A sacred weapon deals an
extra 1d6 points of damage to undead (or 2d6 against evil outsiders)
on a successful hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow
the positive energy upon their ammunition. The weapon is also
treated as being good-aligned (for the purpose of overcoming
damage reduction) when sheathed in positive energy.

I also found two feats for more damage to Undead, should Turn Fail.

Holy Radiance: Basically, Aura of Undead Damage
Holy Potency: Two cool maneuvers.

Temotei
2009-11-28, 01:04 AM
HOLY AURA? (Dunno that spell). I cast it from a scroll at the max CL I could afford for one consumable, it's about CL 80 and is repeated, twinned, and quickened, with other metamagics and such too that aren't as important (transdimensional, for instance.)

Miracle. I summon Chuck Norris. Of course, he has to be willing...

Also, a ring of virtuous good might be something to look at. It's an epic item. It could save you a few turning attempts, or a couple spells. Milskidasith, you can look at it too. :smallwink:

Coidzor
2009-11-28, 01:09 AM
Here's Sacred:

Libris Mortis[/i]]Sacred: Upon command, a sacred weapon is sheathed in luminous
positive energy. This energy does not harm the wielder unless
it is undead, in which case it takes 1 point of Charisma damage
per round it holds the weapon when it is so energized. The effect
remains until another command is given. A sacred weapon deals an
extra 1d6 points of damage to undead (or 2d6 against evil outsiders)
on a successful hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow
the positive energy upon their ammunition. The weapon is also
treated as being good-aligned (for the purpose of overcoming
damage reduction) when sheathed in positive energy.

That has nothing to do with turning. That only has to do with hitting the undead (or evil outsiders) with the weapon.

erikun
2009-11-28, 01:11 AM
Here's Sacred:
Ah, thanks.

It looks like others have given far better advice than I can, so I'll just leave you to look through their recommendations. Remember that epic weapons can have over +10 in enchantments, so just toss on whatever does extra damage to evil or undead. It'll be a handy backup weapon if the lich isn't dead (again) after multiple Greater Turning or Holy Word.

Deth Muncher
2009-11-28, 01:21 AM
Perhaps you should get some way to 'port him to the Positive Energy Plane and then Dim. Lock him?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-28, 01:23 AM
Perhaps you should get some way to 'port him to the Positive Energy Plane and then Dim. Lock him?Undead gain infinite HP on the Pos Energy plane. And never explode.

Deth Muncher
2009-11-28, 01:26 AM
Undead gain infinite HP on the Pos Energy plane. And never explode.

Balderdash.

:/

Such is what I get for trying to be helpful.

erikun
2009-11-28, 01:26 AM
Perhaps you should get some way to 'port him to the Positive Energy Plane and then Dim. Lock him?
This does not work, strangely enough. There is nothing in the Positive-Dominant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#positiveDominant) writeup which states that it does damage to undead, and it actually grants fast healing to everything (despite type or subtype). In fact, undead will be immune to the Fortitude save to explode.

Run by your DM before attempting a Gate-Telekinesis stunt like this one.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 01:30 AM
Can't my weapon, a Sacred Holy Undead Bane ect. Mace be my holy symbol? I mean, it IS my deity's fave weapon...

And reading though MIC, I found Death Ward. Would that help vs Undead?

And with the True Beliver feat, I can use the Dawnstar. Which would be better?

And Finally, has anyone found a Race to play well with Saint yet????

Wings of Peace
2009-11-28, 01:37 AM
Everybody's a critic. I just dislike Humans. Is that blasphemous?

I don't think anyone is knocking elves or other races flavorwise (Well... maybe a few), mechanically there are alot of advantages to a human was their main point

Fhaolan
2009-11-28, 01:53 AM
And Finally, has anyone found a Race to play well with Saint yet????

At lvl 30, the bonuses/penalties from race is pretty much meaningless unless you're considering a high LA race. You should be dealing with +10 and up modifiers through class and magic items. The +1 or +2 from zero LA races is pointless, and is just a distraction.

Actually, that's an idea. Given that this is for a duel, you could pick a race that is so *obviously* a melee-monger that it will make the guy think you've messed up and built a combat character. He gets overconfident, then you throw the uber-turn as you're first move, and go all 'What?' at him.

What would make a good 'fooled you!' race for this? Goliath? Half-minotaur?

Oh, and I would still see about fitting in ways to boost your initiative. You're up against another caster, so it's still a matter of 'who goes first wins'.

Mooch
2009-11-28, 01:54 AM
Are you positive on your opponents build? because if he was also a deathknight(MM2) he would be immune to turning.

Kylarra
2009-11-28, 01:57 AM
Actually, saint might not be so bad, since it's just LA+2, so you could buy it off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm) by level 30 when this takes place. You could even throw in Aasimar or some other random LA+1 race and be completely bought off too, depending on how much exp you get to spend, and if you don't want to have burned some on item crafting etc.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 02:02 AM
Are you positive on your opponents build? because if he was also a deathknight(MM2) he would be immune to turning.

Of course I know what he is. He brags of his "Unstoppable" Inferno Baenre the Sorcerer20Archmage5Ninja5. His character also has an added class: Pain in my a** and has 200lvs. in it

Olo Demonsbane
2009-11-28, 02:13 AM
Of course I know what he is. He brags of his "Unstoppable" Inferno Baenre the Sorcerer20Archmage5Ninja5. His character also has an added class: Pain in my a** and has 200lvs. in it

Well, if he has 200 levels in that, I doubt we will be able to turn a 230 HD undead with a ECL 30 character.

Talakeal
2009-11-28, 03:28 AM
If your opponent has 30 class levels, and a +12 LA template, shouldn't you be making a level 42 character to go against him? Its hardly a fair fight otherwise.

Temotei
2009-11-28, 03:46 AM
Well, if he has 200 levels in that, I doubt we will be able to turn a 230 HD undead with a ECL 30 character.

Funny-man, you are. Sound like Yoda, I do.

You could prepare the spell holy aura, to protect you more against his evil spells, if he has those prepared. And heal, although that probably won't be enough against his build, if he knows what he's doing. If you know what spells he's going to prepare, pick your least favorite to get hit by, and use greater spell immunity.

Then again, greater turning with a success might just destroy him in the first round or so, so...yeah. :smallamused:

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 10:53 AM
Actual Char level 30, not ECL

and as for me, I dont want to stoop to his level. I just will run an Aasamir Half-Celestial Saint -insert clericzilla here- and use an xp buy to make the templates go away.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-28, 11:31 AM
So.... he's actually a level 42 build... right..

Well, I quite like the Hierophant once a cleric hits Epic, you've already maxed your casting slots so you don't lose anything and you can either pick +4 on your turning for each of the five levels or AN EPIC METAMAGIC FEAT... woot. Cleric15/Hierophant5/Radiant10 focussed around turning gives a pretty solid chance of dusting him even if he is stupidly over your ECL

mregecko
2009-11-28, 11:39 AM
Look up a Rod of Defiance -- there are two versions of it printed IIRC... I think it's in MiC and Libris Mortis.

The general idea is "Treat undead as four levels lower than they actually are for the effects of turning."

Pretty nice thing to have.

-- G

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 01:38 PM
To combat the threat of the Undeath, I show unto y'all Sigur Deathbane!!!

Sigur Deathbane the Left Hand of Pelor
Male Saint Half-Celestial Gray Orc Cloistered Cleric 11 / Radiant Servant of Pelor 10 /Hierophant 5 /ShadowStriker 3
Neutral Good

Ability Scores w/out Items:
Strength 22 (+6)
Dexterity 19 (+4)
Constitution 23 (+6)
Intelligence 16 (+3)
Wisdom 30 (+10)
Charisma 29 (+9)

Feats:

Holy Radiance
Extra Turning x1
Improved Initiative
Improved Turning
Exalted Turning
Great Charisma x1
Great Wisdom x1
Murky-Eyed [flaw]
Monkey Grip
Sun Devotion
Maximize Spell
Nimbus of Light
Empower Turning
Heighten Turning

Weaponry:
Heavy Mace [1d10, crit x2, 8 lb., Large, one-handed, bludgeoning] [+10 Holy (+2) Sacred (+1) Undead Bane (+1) Magebane (+1) Disrupting (+2) Colliding (+2) Shattermantle (+1) Material:Starmetal

Longbow [1d8, crit x3, range inc. 100 ft, 3 lb, piercing] [+10 Distant Shot (+6) Precise (+1) Screaming (+1) Seeking (+1) Psychokinetic (+1) Material: Darkwood

Armor:
Full plate armor [heavy; +8 AC; max dex +1; check penalty -6; 50 lb.] [+10 Greater Spell Resistance 21 (+6) Deathward (+1) Ghost Ward (+1) Blueshine (+0) Fire Immunity (+2) Material: Adamantine

Heavy Adamantine Shield Shield [+2 AC; check penalty -1; hardness 10; hp 20; 15 lb.] [Cold, Electricity, and Acid Immunity (+6) Spearblock and Axeblock (+4)


Items:
Nightstick
Rod of Defiance
Scepter of the Neitherworld
+6 Cloak of Charisma
+10 Amulet of Epic Natural Armor
Phylactery of Undead Turning
Wings of Flying


any add-ons, feel free to post

Narazil
2009-11-28, 01:40 PM
Drop the useless feats. You aren't really planning on hitting your opponent, are you?
Boost your Turning, boost your init. Win. Don't bother with the feeble melee attack you're going to do against him: Just beat him with your turning.
Get Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell, and Persist Foresight.

Mongoose87
2009-11-28, 01:43 PM
Drop the useless feats. You aren't really planning on hitting your opponent, are you?
Boost your Turning, boost your init. Win. Don't bother with the feeble melee attack you're going to do against him: Just beat him with your turning.
Get Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell, and Persist Foresight.

If you're able, bring an Altar, and consecrate the place, too.

Narazil
2009-11-28, 01:44 PM
If you're able, bring an Altar, and consecrate the place, too.
At this level, if you're not your own altar, I'm sure you have Solars for heavy duty lifting..

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 01:45 PM
Drop the useless feats. You aren't really planning on hitting your opponent, are you?
Boost your Turning, boost your init. Win. Don't bother with the feeble melee attack you're going to do against him: Just beat him with your turning.
Get Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell, and Persist Foresight.

so what if my Turn Fails? or lets say I'm having a bad run and cant turn anymore (Heaven Forbid). I need a "Plan B"

Plan A is to turn

Plan B is to fight.

And Holy radiance is an aura that deals damage if he gets too close. Granted: 1d4 isn't much, but its a deterrant to say the least

Kylarra
2009-11-28, 01:45 PM
Grey orc gets -2 charisma. No point in that.

Go with Aasimar/Lesser Aasimar instead.

Half-Celestial + Saint + LA +1 race = +7 LA, you're not buying that off at level 30.
The most you can spring for at level 30 is +4, and that's only if you actually have enough exp to reach level 31 (bought off at 12, 21, 27 and 30 class levels)

Narazil
2009-11-28, 01:47 PM
so what if my Turn Fails? or lets say I'm having a bad run and cant turn anymore (Heaven Forbid). I need a "Plan B"

Plan A is to turn

Plan B is to fight.

And Holy radiance is an aura that deals damage if he gets too close. Granted: 1d4 isn't much, but its a deterrant to say the least
Make sure your Turn Attempt doesn't fail, then. Instead of going different directions with trying to deal him a bit of damage and trying to hit him, just focus on turning, and he'll blow up easy.
You're dead if you try to melee him without being persisted through the roof with every imaginable spell.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 01:48 PM
Grey orc gets -2 charisma. No point in that.

Go with Aasimar/Lesser Aasimar instead.

Half-Celestial + Saint + LA +1 race = +7 LA, you're not buying that off at level 30.
The most you can spring for at level 30 is +4, and that's only if you actually have enough exp to reach level 31 (bought off at 12, 21, 27 and 30 class levels)

1. Grey orc gets a + to wis however, and saint more than covers the -2 cha

2. Thanks for correcting me. again. I'll drop Celestial. No point in redundency, eh?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 01:50 PM
Make sure your Turn Attempt doesn't fail, then. Instead of going different directions with trying to deal him a bit of damage and trying to hit him, just focus on turning, and he'll blow up easy.
You're dead if you try to melee him without being persisted through the roof with every imaginable spell.

we'll move melee to "plan c" so here's how it works:

Plan A: Turn (unless DK, then skip straight to plan B)
Plan B: Cast
Plan C: Melee
Plan D: Smite once then run like Hell

Kylarra
2009-11-28, 01:54 PM
1. Grey orc gets a + to wis however, and saint more than covers the -2 cha

2. Thanks for correcting me. again. I'll drop Celestial. No point in redundency, eh?
Grey Orc gets you nothing [of worth] that [lesser or greater] Aasimar doesn't also do.

Narazil
2009-11-28, 01:54 PM
Doubt your opponent will have thought of adding Deathknight, unless he knows you're going to turn him.

Drop the Grey Orc, it hurts your turning and doesn't add anything to it.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 01:56 PM
Doubt your opponent will have thought of adding Deathknight, unless he knows you're going to turn him.

Drop the Grey Orc, it hurts your turning and doesn't add anything to it.

I can't find a race that benefits from saint and has a + to both Cha and Wis without being outsider. The best I could find is Vanara from OA.

Narazil
2009-11-28, 01:57 PM
I can't find a race that benefits from saint and has a + to both Cha and Wis without being outsider. The best I could find is Vanara from OA.
You don't need Wisdom. You won't be casting anything with DC's, anyway.
Also, why 5 levels of Hierophant? Just dip for the bonus for turning.
Edit: and drop Shadow Striker. Just go Cleric / Radiant Servant of Pelor, tbh.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 02:17 PM
You don't need Wisdom. You won't be casting anything with DC's, anyway.
Also, why 5 levels of Hierophant? Just dip for the bonus for turning.
Edit: and drop Shadow Striker. Just go Cleric / Radiant Servant of Pelor, tbh.

1. I need a backup plan (or two or three) so I'm not limited to ONLY UNDEAD
2. Hierophant also boosts my CL and maxes my healing further 9as if RSoP didn't already. lol)
3.Shadow Striker gives me a smite ability as a free ability and further boosts CL

Notes: Mabye I should forgo the Shadow striker in favor of Paragonistic Apostle. More cleric spells and more divine boosts.

and as for race, would Spellscale (RoDragons) be a good pick?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 02:53 PM
New level. He's 45, not 30. My bad intel. I'll re-create my Clericzilla to match this newfound intel.

Narazil
2009-11-28, 03:28 PM
1. I need a backup plan (or two or three) so I'm not limited to ONLY UNDEAD
2. Hierophant also boosts my CL and maxes my healing further 9as if RSoP didn't already. lol)
3.Shadow Striker gives me a smite ability as a free ability and further boosts CL

Notes: Mabye I should forgo the Shadow striker in favor of Paragonistic Apostle. More cleric spells and more divine boosts.

and as for race, would Spellscale (RoDragons) be a good pick?
Cleric / Radiant Servant of Pelor has all the backup plans you need. Go find the feat Divine Metamagic, then find Persist Spell. Then go "lulz". At level 45, you persist everything you can remotely imagine - no 10d6 Smite ability is going to make up for having stuff like Foresight persisted (persist Time Stop, lulz).

Temotei
2009-11-28, 03:41 PM
I need a backup plan (or two or three) so I'm not limited to ONLY UNDEAD

Why would you need to kill anything other than undead? Your enemy is undead...:smallconfused:


Cleric / Radiant Servant of Pelor has all the backup plans you need. Go find the feat Divine Metamagic, then find Persist Spell. Then go "lulz". At level 45, you persist everything you can remotely imagine - no 10d6 Smite ability is going to make up for having stuff like Foresight persisted (persist Time Stop, lulz).

Narazil knows what he's talking about. Anyways, if you were going into the melee builds, why would you be a cloistered cleric? Stick with turning and spellcasting with persist metamagic.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-28, 03:46 PM
Take two:

The ultimate fear and dread of the Undeath lies in:


Drake the Golden Claw of Pelor
Male Saint Aurak Draconian Monster 8 / Cloistered Cleric 15 / Radiant Servant of Pelor 10 /Hierophant 2 / Contemplative 10

Ability Scores w/out Items:

Strength 16 (+3)
Dexterity 21 (+5)
Constitution 19 (+4)
Intelligence 18 (+4)
Wisdom 24 (+7)
Charisma 33 (+11)

Feats:

Extra Turning x1
Improved Initiative
Improved Turning
Exalted Turning
Great Charisma [epic] x4
Nymph's Kiss
Persist Spell
Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell
Positive Energy Aura
Persistant Foresight
Extend Spell
Force of Personality
Empower Turning
Heighten Turning
Quicken Turning

Items and weapons and Armor as before

Narazil
2009-11-28, 03:49 PM
I love that you just copy paste our responses without looking them up. :smallwink:


Drop Improved Initiative. It's not needed with Foresight.
Persistant Foresight is not a feat. Foresight is a spell, with the metamagic "Persist" attached.
Persist Spell requires Extend Spell.
Drop Positive Energy Aura.
Drop Force of Personality.
Drop Nymph's Kiss. Seriously.
80% sure you want to drop Heighten Turning.
You've listed Extra Turning twice.

Get Empower Spell and Divine Metamagic: Empower Spell. Get Extra turning.

Persist Empowered version of all your buffs. There're probably other metamagics you want to add onto this - you'll have more than enough turning attempts.

Also, do something about that horrible Charisma.

Kylarra
2009-11-28, 03:51 PM
By the fist of Zarus that color burns my retinas.

Fhaolan
2009-11-28, 04:56 PM
It's all kind of irrelevant anyway. Your opponent has already won.

Like most duels, the trick is to not try to beat your opponent's weapon (in this case your weapon is the character you're building), but to beat your opponent. And he's got you beat.

You're letting him set all the conditions of the duel. He's not only your opponent, but is also your regular DM. He's set the level of the characters in a range where he can make up rules on the fly that you can't argue with because that's how Epic magic works, plus it's a level range you're not fully familiar with (as evidenced by the questions you've asked in this and it's related threads.) He's changed the playing field several times in order to keep you off-balance (lvl 100, lvl 67, now lvl 45 which you thought was lvl 30 at first.) You've managed to gimp yourself even further by putting more restrictions on your character (non-human, no wizard-type), as if you're intending to actually play this monstrosity rather than just duel with it the one time. And he's got you mad about the one character he says he's going to use so that you're not thinking through things clearly about what he's *not* telling you.

There's also the issue that he's probably reading this right now, laughing his ass off. Even if he told you that he doesn't read this forum, as soon as you left the conversation where you asked him, he sauntered over to the computer and looked it up, and has been watching ever since. Heck, he may even be one of the posters here, giving you advice that he already has counters for.

Since he's setting the parameters, I bet you that this demilich will also have Epic Leadership, so he'll have an epic-level non-undead cohort (probably a cleric) that can't be turned. Oh, and plus the maximum number of vassal Liches, Vampires, and Vampire Spawn as per the monster entries in the SRD, all of which will be 20+ level monsters and be wizards or clerics because the SRD doesn't explicitly say that the liches, vampires, and vampire spawn that the demilich controls have to be any specific level or that these count towards the Leadership score. Those aren't there to fight, because he'll know they'll get dusted by the turning. They're there to rapid-fire buff him and the cleric in the round before the duel official begins, with every buff spell known to man, because at that level the demilich will know them all and will have taught them to all the minions. The cleric will be a DMM CoDzilla specifically designed to keep you occupied just long enough for the demilich to pull off an epic-level mind-control spell that will cause you to kill yourself by voluntarily hammering a dull spoon through your own forehead.

And if that fails (which it should if you're properly prepared), I bet you the terms of the duel is 'to the death'. Unfortunately, you've built a character that *can* die. He very specifically has built one that even if you 'win', it just comes back 1d10 days later to continue the duel unless you have the foresight to destroy all 8 of the soul gems, as well as hunt down the hidden phylactery which will have epic-level defences that you will need to defeat. All in one session.

Basically wizards always win when they're given the opportunity to be fully prepared for a specific fight. You don't need to be "Schrödinger's Wizard" when the player knows exactly what he's going up against. And you've allowed him that opportunity.

Forevernade
2009-11-28, 07:37 PM
It's all kind of irrelevant anyway. Your opponent has already won.

Like most duels, the trick is to not try to beat your opponent's weapon (in this case your weapon is the character you're building), but to beat your opponent. And he's got you beat.

You're letting him set all the conditions of the duel. He's not only your opponent, but is also your regular DM. He's set the level of the characters in a range where he can make up rules on the fly that you can't argue with because that's how Epic magic works, plus it's a level range you're not fully familiar with (as evidenced by the questions you've asked in this and it's related threads.) He's changed the playing field several times in order to keep you off-balance (lvl 100, lvl 67, now lvl 45 which you thought was lvl 30 at first.) You've managed to gimp yourself even further by putting more restrictions on your character (non-human, no wizard-type), as if you're intending to actually play this monstrosity rather than just duel with it the one time. And he's got you mad about the one character he says he's going to use so that you're not thinking through things clearly about what he's *not* telling you.

There's also the issue that he's probably reading this right now, laughing his ass off. Even if he told you that he doesn't read this forum, as soon as you left the conversation where you asked him, he sauntered over to the computer and looked it up, and has been watching ever since. Heck, he may even be one of the posters here, giving you advice that he already has counters for.

Since he's setting the parameters, I bet you that this demilich will also have Epic Leadership, so he'll have an epic-level non-undead cohort (probably a cleric) that can't be turned. Oh, and plus the maximum number of vassal Liches, Vampires, and Vampire Spawn as per the monster entries in the SRD, all of which will be 20+ level monsters and be wizards or clerics because the SRD doesn't explicitly say that the liches, vampires, and vampire spawn that the demilich controls have to be any specific level or that these count towards the Leadership score. Those aren't there to fight, because he'll know they'll get dusted by the turning. They're there to rapid-fire buff him and the cleric in the round before the duel official begins, with every buff spell known to man, because at that level the demilich will know them all and will have taught them to all the minions. The cleric will be a DMM CoDzilla specifically designed to keep you occupied just long enough for the demilich to pull off an epic-level mind-control spell that will cause you to kill yourself by voluntarily hammering a dull spoon through your own forehead.

And if that fails (which it should if you're properly prepared), I bet you the terms of the duel is 'to the death'. Unfortunately, you've built a character that *can* die. He very specifically has built one that even if you 'win', it just comes back 1d10 days later to continue the duel unless you have the foresight to destroy all 8 of the soul gems, as well as hunt down the hidden phylactery which will have epic-level defences that you will need to defeat. All in one session.

Basically wizards always win when they're given the opportunity to be fully prepared for a specific fight. You don't need to be "Schrödinger's Wizard" when the player knows exactly what he's going up against. And you've allowed him that opportunity.

lol. funkn lol

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 12:47 AM
I love that you just copy paste our responses without looking them up. :smallwink:


Drop Improved Initiative. It's not needed with Foresight.
Persistant Foresight is not a feat. Foresight is a spell, with the metamagic "Persist" attached.
Persist Spell requires Extend Spell.
Drop Positive Energy Aura.
Drop Force of Personality.
Drop Nymph's Kiss. Seriously.
80% sure you want to drop Heighten Turning.
You've listed Extra Turning twice.

Get Empower Spell and Divine Metamagic: Empower Spell. Get Extra turning.

Persist Empowered version of all your buffs. There're probably other metamagics you want to add onto this - you'll have more than enough turning attempts.

Also, do something about that horrible Charisma.

1. It adds a boost to my initaitive. Any is better than none
2. Thanks for the intel NOW
3. + Energy Aura is basically "Aura of Turning", which makes even the most ballsy undead run in terror, kepping him more than about 30 feet away.
4. Nymph's Kiss adds a +2 to my Turning rolls. Again, any extra boost is better than none
5. Heightened Turning was suggested to me by a buddy of mine who plays a cleric regularly
6. No. One's Extra, one's Exalted, which adds 3d6 to a turn attempt, so even if it fails, he gets burned for some damage

will take a flaw and add those

and a 33 PLUS items is crappy? what do you want? a 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999999999999999999999 Charisma score?????!!!!!

tyckspoon
2009-11-29, 01:12 AM
3. + Energy Aura is basically "Aura of Turning", which makes even the most ballsy undead run in terror, kepping him more than about 30 feet away.
4. Nymph's Kiss adds a +2 to my Turning rolls. Again, any extra boost is better than none
5. Heightened Turning was suggested to me by a buddy of mine who plays a cleric regularly
6. No. One's Extra, one's Exalted, which adds 3d6 to a turn attempt, so even if it fails, he gets burned for some damage

will take a flaw and add those


If it adds to your turning check- the d20 roll that determines whether you add or subtract from your cleric level- you don't need it, at least not as a feat (items that do this are usually pretty cheap and should be added in, however.) Your *base* effective turning level should be high enough to affect your target even if you roll a 1 on the turning check. If it improves your actual turning *damage*, which is 2d6 + Cleric level + Cha mod, that's good. Get more of that. Like Empower Turning from Complete Divine, which increases your turning damage by half *after* you add cleric level and Cha mod.. with Cha +10 and 30 effective cleric levels you'd be turning 60 HD worth of undead without even rolling.

Edit: I see you already have it. That really is a horrible text color.

Kol Korran
2009-11-29, 01:33 AM
i haven't read all the thread, but an item that comes to mind is "Phylactery of undead turning" (DMG), which basically makes you 4 levels higher for the purpuse of undead turning. costs only 11,000, and stacks with anything. plus, there is the head band of persuasion (? or something) that gives you +3 competence bonus on charisma checks, which include turn undead checks (though at your level you could probably get a much higher value competence item)

just my suggestions,
Kol.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 01:49 AM
i haven't read all the thread, but an item that comes to mind is "Phylactery of undead turning" (DMG), which basically makes you 4 levels higher for the purpuse of undead turning. costs only 11,000, and stacks with anything. plus, there is the head band of persuasion (? or something) that gives you +3 competence bonus on charisma checks, which include turn undead checks (though at your level you could probably get a much higher value competence item)

just my suggestions,
Kol.

danka. forgot that particuar item. that plus nymph's kiss adds a +5 to cha checks.

and I have Phylactery of Undead Turning

sofawall
2009-11-29, 02:04 AM
and a 33 PLUS items is crappy? what do you want? a 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999999999999999999999 Charisma score?????!!!!!

You're level 45? 18+4 saint+2 Lesser Aasimar+11 HD should give you 35, without Great Charisma. What are you doing? :smallconfused:

EDIT: Also, why did you take Great Charisma 4 times? You ended up at an odd number. Take away one of those and you free up another feat slot.

Mooch
2009-11-29, 02:11 AM
for your clericzilla you are seriously lacking in the persisted spells department especially if you can stack nightsticks

here is a list to get you started
conviction (SC)
shield of faith
divine favor
elation
brambles (SC-use a wooden weapon ironwood/darkwood or some such)
magic vestment
recitation
divine power
sheltered vitality
freedom of movement
deathward
greater blindsight
greater magic weapon
righteous might
righteous wrath of the faithful
divine agility
superiour resistance
heroes feast
holy transformation
holy star
stormrage
holy aura
greater visage of the deity
miracle duplicating bite of the werebear

to do this you need around 30 nightsticks but at these levels they are a plink in the bucket

these buffs should give you something like the following
+26str
+12dex
+10con
AB: 30/30/25/20/15+str and +6damage on each
AC: +21
+18 to all saves
immunities: fatigue, exhaustion, ability damage, ability drain, poison, fear

PS grab some rings to counteract dispelling

Temotei
2009-11-29, 02:18 AM
1. It adds a boost to my initaitive. Any is better than none
2. Thanks for the intel NOW
3. + Energy Aura is basically "Aura of Turning", which makes even the most ballsy undead run in terror, kepping him more than about 30 feet away.
4. Nymph's Kiss adds a +2 to my Turning rolls. Again, any extra boost is better than none
5. Heightened Turning was suggested to me by a buddy of mine who plays a cleric regularly
6. No. One's Extra, one's Exalted, which adds 3d6 to a turn attempt, so even if it fails, he gets burned for some damage

will take a flaw and add those

and a 33 PLUS items is crappy? what do you want? a 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999999999999999999999 Charisma score?????!!!!!

People usually come back to help more if you don't get angry/upset/crabby. Just saying.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 02:52 AM
the Aurak Draconian gets a boost to cha, a breath weapon, death throes, SR 21+HD+Armor and all 4th lv sorcerer spells

Narazil
2009-11-29, 04:49 AM
33 Charisma at level 45 is very very little.

Improved Initiative is not needed in any way, shape or form.

Energy Aura is crap, and does nothing against the demilich. Read it again. It's unbelieveable crappy.

I'm pretty sure that's not how Nymph's Kiss works.

Heighten Turning - might've been suggested to you, but it still sucks.

Drop Exalted Turning, seeing as the damage is near nothing.


If it adds to your turning check- the d20 roll that determines whether you add or subtract from your cleric level- you don't need it, at least not as a feat (items that do this are usually pretty cheap and should be added in, however.) Your *base* effective turning level should be high enough to affect your target even if you roll a 1 on the turning check. If it improves your actual turning *damage*, which is 2d6 + Cleric level + Cha mod, that's good. Get more of that. Like Empower Turning from Complete Divine, which increases your turning damage by half *after* you add cleric level and Cha mod.. with Cha +10 and 30 effective cleric levels you'd be turning 60 HD worth of undead without even rolling.

Edit: I see you already have it. That really is a horrible text color.

There're really two options here:
- Somehow count as extremely high level for turning, and simply blow the Demilich up before rolling damage.
- Find some way of boosting your turning damage on dope and roll mountains of dice for damage.



the Aurak Draconian gets a boost to cha, a breath weapon, death throes, SR 21+HD+Armor and all 4th lv sorcerer spells

Wow. Sounds useless. No amount of SR, breath weapon and sorcerer levels (barring epic) is going to save you from a Orb of Force for Gazillion damage.


You're not going to win. You aren't thinking like a level 45 character. You're going to need a giant stack of books in order to make full use of your character. Right now it doesn't seem like you have the overview needed in order to fight, say, a level 20 match or so.


And I applaud you Faolan. So true, so very true.

sofawall
2009-11-29, 01:11 PM
the Aurak Draconian gets a boost to cha, a breath weapon, death throes, SR 21+HD+Armor and all 4th lv sorcerer spells

Nearly useless.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 01:15 PM
Nymphs Kiss states, among the skill bonuses and save boosts "add +2 to all cha rolls" which if Im not mistaken, includes turning/rebuking

sofawall
2009-11-29, 01:36 PM
Nymphs Kiss states, among the skill bonuses and save boosts "add +2 to all cha rolls" which if Im not mistaken, includes turning/rebuking

If you're putting something in quotation marks, I'd like it to be an actual quote.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 06:41 PM
If you're putting something in quotation marks, I'd like it to be an actual quote.

forgive me. i was late to work.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 08:43 PM
Time I guess for Plan C:

Trumpet Archon 20, Cleric 10, Radiant Servant of Pelor 10, Contemplative 4, Hierophant 1

Epic Cleric levels=41st
Free "Greatsword +10"
Flight
Outsider
Holy A**-Whoopery
Charisma outta the wazoo
Turn Anything short of Vecna
Bardic Music
Full BAB for 20 lvs
d12 for 20 levels
SR
Immunities to Soul Theft, ect.

then stack armor, items, and feats and we have a winner!! :) :P

sofawall
2009-11-29, 09:18 PM
Time I guess for Plan C:

Trumpet Archon 20, Cleric 10, Radiant Servant of Pelor 10, Contemplative 4, Hierophant 1

Epic Cleric levels=41st
Free "Greatsword +10"
Flight
Outsider
Holy A**-Whoopery
Charisma outta the wazoo
Turn Anything short of Vecna
Bardic Music
Full BAB for 20 lvs
d12 for 20 levels
SR
Immunities to Soul Theft, ect.

then stack armor, items, and feats and we have a winner!! :) :P

How do you have 41 cleric levels? You lose 6 in Trumpet Archon alone...

Or do you mean for turning? Because you lose 20 levels of that for Trumpet Archon.

Also, you have a racial cha of +6. Not super.

Where are you getting a d12? Outsider hit dice are d8, and you only have 12 of them. Cleric is also d8. You only have 15 HD apart from those 2, and without even looking them up, I know you cannot get 20d12 out of 15 HD.

EDIT: Do you actually know what you are doing, or just picking things at random from the Monster Manual? Please read the SRD sections on turning and on level adjustments. Those seem to be what you care about.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 09:28 PM
How do you have 41 cleric levels? You lose 6 in Trumpet Archon alone...

Or do you mean for turning? Because you lose 20 levels of that for Trumpet Archon.

Also, you have a racial cha of +6. Not super.

Where are you getting a d12? Outsider hit dice are d8, and you only have 12 of them. Cleric is also d8. You only have 15 HD apart from those 2, and without even looking them up, I know you cannot get 20d12 out of 15 HD.

EDIT: Do you actually know what you are doing, or just picking things at random from the Monster Manual? Please read the SRD sections on turning and on level adjustments. Those seem to be what you care about.
{scrubbed}

Alcopop
2009-11-29, 09:31 PM
Can we please just let nature take it's course?

sofawall
2009-11-29, 09:37 PM
{scrubbed}

I wish I knew what that said.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 09:39 PM
Can we please just let nature take it's course?

My life just sux rite now. My gf broke up with me, I'm all but broke, I'm probably not gonna graduate high school, which'll void my military contract, my odds of going to college are all but gone and now I can't even do what I enjoy: D&D.

sofawall
2009-11-29, 09:43 PM
My life just sux rite now. My gf broke up with me, I'm all but broke, I'm probably not gonna graduate high school, which'll void my military contract, my odds of going to college are all but gone and now I can't even do what I enjoy: D&D.

i am truley sorry for your lots

But you know what? When you are asking for help, and don't look up what we suggest, or even the rules you seem to be fixed on (turning), but instead rage and throw tantrums, it doesn't make us likely to restrain the snark.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 09:49 PM
i am truley sorry for your lots

But you know what? When you are asking for help, and don't look up what we suggest, or even the rules you seem to be fixed on (turning), but instead rage and throw tantrums, it doesn't make us likely to restrain the snark.

forgive me, but I have been looking things up. I've been on a downward spiral towards suicide. I'm trying to put my crappy life on hold and move on, but here, I feel almost like some noob without a clue.

So as for my idea, would Astral Deva be a good choice? I'd use Savage Species to turn it into a 20lv class, then "multiclass" into cleric, then into Radiant Servant of Pelor, then dip into Contemplative and Hierophant. Or would I be better off continuing a search of any and all races?

I again appologize for my behavior and will do everything I can to curb my emotions.

sofawall
2009-11-29, 09:52 PM
forgive me, but I have been looking things up. I've been on a downward spiral towards suicide. I'm trying to put my crappy life on hold and move on, but here, I feel almost like some noob without a clue.

So as for my idea, would Astral Deva be a good choice? I'd use Savage Species to turn it into a 20lv class, then "multiclass" into cleric, then into Radiant Servant of Pelor, then dip into Contemplative and Hierophant. Or would I be better off continuing a search of any and all races?

I again appologize for my behavior and will do everything I can to curb my emotions.

Nearly useless. It gives you cleric levels for casting, but only 14 CL for a 20 level class. You get less BAB and HD than 20 cleric, and most importantly, you lose 20 effective Cleric levels for Turning. That is very, very bad.

Kylarra
2009-11-29, 09:55 PM
There's no real need to be esoteric. Straight Cleric/RosP/Con/Hier with something like a [lesser] aasimar will generally be better for straight TU blasting than a weird race with LA+RHD. Possibly getting up to LA+3 for bought off LA if you just want stat boosts, but more than that is just going to infract your turning hard.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 09:59 PM
Nearly useless. It gives you cleric levels for casting, but only 14 CL for a 20 level class. You get less BAB and HD than 20 cleric, and most importantly, you lose 20 effective Cleric levels for Turning. That is very, very bad.

that helps. I need suggestions.

I was also wondering how smite would work against him. He's Chaotic Neutral, but my idea (granted, I'll probably be laughed at for it...) was to possibly run a Half-Adamantine Dragon Dragonborn (heart) of Bahamut Paladin of Bahamut 20 Platinum Knight (Draconomicon)10 Vassal of Bahamut (Exalted Deeds) 10 Soulborn 5. I'm sure I look like some idiot for even thinking of this, but could it work? Or am I delaying a garunteed loss and should simply forgo any and all decent ideas in favor of a Pun Pun-type

Talakeal
2009-11-29, 10:08 PM
Remember, his opponent has 14 levels of ECL unaccounted for, so he can do the same if he wants.

To the OP, I understand you may be depressed and in a hard place in your life right now, and I understand that D&D can help, I have been there myself. However, I have to ask, why are you having such a hard time just enjoying the game? Is your DM actually being so arrogant and condescending that you cannot enjoy playing with him and so you hope to challenge him to shut him up?
If that is the case I doubt it will work. If you lose nothing will change except he will have more fuel for the fire. If you win, he will try even harder to put you down to defend his ego. I think a better solution would be to either tell him that he is hurting your feelings or simply come to accept that's the way he is. Many people will tell you to simply find a new DM, but in my experience that is much easier said than done. It's not like good DMs who have openings in their game that you could fill are on every block, and leaving your current group is hard, especially if they are friends out of the game.
Yes you do seem relatively new to the game. There is nothing wrong with that. Everyone has been there. Just keep playing what is fun for you and you will learn the game in time. The game is poorly balanced at high levels, and magic does dominate melee if your DM doesn't have very strict house rules on limiting magic, but that does not mean you shouldn't play a non caster, or that doing so will be less fun or less useful to the party. D&D is after all a team adventure, not a PvP arena combat simulator.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 10:14 PM
Remember, his opponent has 14 levels of ECL unaccounted for, so he can do the same if he wants.

To the OP, I understand you may be depressed and in a hard place in your life right now, and I understand that D&D can help, I have been there myself. However, I have to ask, why are you having such a hard time just enjoying the game? Is your DM actually being so arrogant and condescending that you cannot enjoy playing with him and so you hope to challenge him to shut him up?
If that is the case I doubt it will work. If you lose nothing will change except he will have more fuel for the fire. If you win, he will try even harder to put you down to defend his ego. I think a better solution would be to either tell him that he is hurting your feelings or simply come to accept that's the way he is. Many people will tell you to simply find a new DM, but in my experience that is much easier said than done. It's not like good DMs who have openings in their game that you could fill are on every block, and leaving your current group is hard, especially if they are friends out of the game.
Yes you do seem relatively new to the game. There is nothing wrong with that. Everyone has been there. Just keep playing what is fun for you and you will learn the game in time. The game is poorly balanced at high levels, and magic does dominate melee if your DM doesn't have very strict house rules on limiting magic, but that does not mean you shouldn't play a non caster, or that doing so will be less fun or less useful to the party. D&D is after all a team adventure, not a PvP arena combat simulator.

its not that he's hurting my feelings, its that he just claims that his Drow Demilich cannot be beaten and in the end, it irritates me to the point I just want, more for myself than to him that I can beat him at his own game. Granted, yes I'm new to the more structured setup, but I ran a couple of "one dungeon" sessions during BCT during our spare time. Heck, I DM'ed one session. Granted, it was sloppy, but it was fun. But now, my DM is kinda annoying me with "Inferno cannot be beaten. He's immune to everything. He is perfect...." to the point I snapped and challenged him to a one-on-one. Not the best move, but it felt right. But now, with the day looming overhead, I only pray I can at least beat his supposedly unbeatable char...

Alcopop
2009-11-29, 10:18 PM
My life just sux rite now. My gf broke up with me, I'm all but broke, I'm probably not gonna graduate high school, which'll void my military contract, my odds of going to college are all but gone and now I can't even do what I enjoy: D&D.


Mm' fair enough, I didn't mean my comment in response to yours, but rather to the duel as whole.

As has been said before, PvP isn't really going to help much even if you win, and if you’re just fighting to have fun then pick one of the builds you've already made and go with it and enjoy. Just don't expect the outcome to be assured.

My suggestion would be to just walk away from this duel and play some normal dnd instead. If you dm teases you for it remind him that it's just a game and has no real bearing on anything real what-so-ever.

The competitive spirit more then anything else (bar a bad DM) can ruin dnd imho. So don't bother with it.

edit:


... But now, my DM is kinda annoying me with "Inferno cannot be beaten. He's immune to everything. He is perfect...." to the point I snapped and challenged him to a one-on-one. Not the best move, but it felt right. But now, with the day looming overhead, I only pray I can at least beat his supposedly unbeatable char...

Gawd, just point him to the forums and tell him to post his build, he'll see just how "unbeatable" it really is.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 10:22 PM
And as for the 14 missing Levels, I almost want to do the same, but it, for some reason, doesn't feel right...

It feels as if if I did that, then it'd almost lessen the thrill of the victory. As if I had cheated victory...

I did have an Idea, one that (mabye) makes sense:

Race: Illithid (Yeah, I know. It is a race with HD and LA into high heaven. But pay attention to the idea)

Classes: Mind Flayer monster class 15/ Psion 20 / Arch Psion 5 / Metamind 5

conceptual play: Psionic version of Disjunction followed by using metapsionics to wittle his HP down, followed by mind blasts.

Substitution: Mabye I could use a "Brain in a Jar" as a replacement to mind flayer. Or be a Mind Flayer's Brain in a Jar! lol

Talakeal
2009-11-29, 10:24 PM
I am sure he can be beaten. Turning seems like a good choice, I remember when I used to play a vampire I could never figure out a way to survive a single turn attempt by an even semi optimized cleric.
There is plenty of good advice with this thread. Depending on how much buff time you are allowed that could change things, but personally I would just focus on turning and dispelling ability in character creation. Then just keep blasting him with turns, using quickened disjunctions and superior dispels at any buffs he puts up that interfere with your turning.
I wouldn't worry much about backups. If the fight goes long enough that you use all your turning attempts without killing him he has probably had enough time to beat you. And if he has found someone to be immune to turning which you can't dispel a build centered around turning won't be able to beat him any other way.

Seriously though, epic level play is, imho, stupid. It seems fit for a light hearted game along the lines of an American tall tale like Paul Bunyan or Pecos Bill, but when you try using it to simulate modern fantasy it just looks ridiculous. Bragging about how awesome level 45 (didn't is start out level 100) is pretty silly, because at that point the character is really meaningless.

sofawall
2009-11-29, 10:59 PM
There are level 20 characters that can beat "inferno" without breaking a sweat if epic magic is banned, and level 21 builds that can do the same if it isn't. I agree with one of the above posters, tell him to hang out on the boards a while. Come on with his build and we'll show him how it can be better, and how to beat it.

Hell, turning might even a very effective method of killing him off.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 11:14 PM
There a level 20 characters that can beat "inferno" without breaking a sweat if epic magic is banned, and level 21 builds that can do the same if it isn't. I agree with one of the above posters, tell him to hang out on the boards a while. Come on with his build and we'll show him how it can be better, and how to beat it.

Hell, turning might even a very effective method of killing him off.

I almost considered being "Boccob"

Race: Human Saint Tainted One
Class: Cleric15/Wizard15/Archmage5/Cleric5/MysticTheurge5

I just am wondering though how this'd work vs this:

Race: Drow Demilich
Class:Sorcerer20/Archmage5/Non-Prestige Class Assassin20

sofawall
2009-11-29, 11:25 PM
I almost considered being "Boccob"

Race: Human Saint Tainted One
Class: Cleric15/Wizard15/Archmage5/Cleric5/MysticTheurge5

I just am wondering though how this'd work vs this:

Race: Drow Demilich
Class:Sorcerer20/Archmage5/Non-Prestige Class Assassin20

Commentary on your build: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. It isn't good. Loses way too much on both sides. Like, seriously. Loses a lot.

Commentary on his build: What does drow bring to the table? What is this assassin class? Why take 20 levels of sorcerer, why not take some more prestige classes?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 11:33 PM
Commentary on your build: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. It isn't good. Loses way too much on both sides. Like, seriously. Loses a lot.

Commentary on his build: What does drow bring to the table? What is this assassin class? Why take 20 levels of sorcerer, why not take some more prestige classes?

To my build: Thanks for killing my self-esteem dood.
to his build: He just likes Drow. Its Assassin turned into a base class for 20lvs. Sorcerer is his fave spellmonger class. Hell if I know...

tyckspoon
2009-11-29, 11:48 PM
You know, if he wasn't a Demilich, you'd be able to crush him pretty easily with almost any of the ideas you've come up with before. Since he *is* a Demilich, your best bet is probably exploding him with Shatter spells. I don't think the Turning plan actually works, since it's a Supernatural ability and the Demilich's Magic Immunity doesn't list it as one of the exceptions. Which is a shame, since disintegrating him in a burst of holy light would probably be the most elegant way to do it.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 11:51 PM
Is there a good Divine/Arcane crossover for Wizard/Archivist?

sofawall
2009-11-30, 12:02 AM
You know, if he wasn't a Demilich, you'd be able to crush him pretty easily with almost any of the ideas you've come up with before. Since he *is* a Demilich, your best bet is probably exploding him with Shatter spells. I don't think the Turning plan actually works, since it's a Supernatural ability and the Demilich's Magic Immunity doesn't list it as one of the exceptions. Which is a shame, since disintegrating him in a burst of holy light would probably be the most elegant way to do it.

Holy crap, never even noticed that.

Well, plan D?

Talakeal
2009-11-30, 12:05 AM
That maybe RAW, but it is certainly not RAI as they have the turn resistance trait. Why would they have a resistance to something they are immune to?

Unfortunatly your DM doesn't seem like he has a good grasp of RAI, so good luck convincing him of that. Ah well, back to the drawing board.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 12:08 AM
Holy crap, never even noticed that.

Well, plan D?

Plan D: Archivist/Wizard

Kylarra
2009-11-30, 12:21 AM
No real point in that. Just take a standard mailman build, replace an orb with shatter and go to town.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 12:30 AM
No real point in that. Just take a standard mailman build, replace an orb with shatter and go to town.

Mailman? Remember. Terms like Mailman are new to me. Pretend I have never played D&D b/4

tyckspoon
2009-11-30, 12:39 AM
Mailman? Remember. Terms like Mailman are new to me. Pretend I have never played D&D b/4


Single (usually)-spell Metamagic specialist, built around the Arcane Thesis feat and the Incantatrix prestige class. Its signature trick is casting its specialty spell four times a round, improved with at least Empower and Maximize, from only two spell slots with little to no increase in the actual spell level. Loading it with Shatter would obliterate a Demilich pretty easily.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 12:52 AM
Would a Worm that Walks (Later in 4e called a Larva Mage [I like better]) be a good template vs a demilich, or should I just go demilich as well?

Myrmex
2009-11-30, 12:58 AM
Unless you get the template for free, templates are in general a bad idea.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 01:06 AM
Unless you get the template for free, templates are in general a bad idea.

Lava Mage is 3LA, easilly paid off. However Demilich, while more powerful, is far more costly

Myrmex
2009-11-30, 01:19 AM
Lava Mage is 3LA, easilly paid off. However Demilich, while more powerful, is far more costly

It's an arena fight, yes? So even if you pay it off, you're still 3 levels lower. That's a lost epic feat & 3 caster levels.

You should go with gray elf wizard, since you get +2 int and 6 bonus feats you can turn into epic feats by using Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos from Fiendish Codex I (commonly referred to as the Chaos Shuffle).

You should be spontaneous diviner wizard 5/incantatrix10/initiate of the sevenfold veil 7/archmage 5/anything that progresses wizard casting 3.

Pick up arcane thesis with the Shatter spell, and a bunch of metamagic feats to make it more powerful.

Put up as many defensive based spells as you can get and put them on with persistent metamagic, so they last 24 hours.

Open the fight with Disjunction spam, followed by a barrage of Shatters. If that doesn't kill him immediately, you can use the various effects from Iot7V to protect you.

You can also have your familiar polymorphed into something incredibly brutal with a lot of gnarly buffs on in case he has found a way to get immunity to shatter on an item that he can put next to a phylactery 10,000,000,000 miles away on another plane.

Use Wish to get access to divine spell effects so you can get immunity from sneak attacks, death effects, and HP damage.

root9125
2009-11-30, 01:30 AM
Do. Not. Use. A. Template.

I think we've all been saying this for 10 pages in the last thread, and 5 in this one.

Why do you WANT to use a template? My rule #1 of actually making useful caster characters: Never, ever, ever, ever lose caster levels. No, not even then.

Granted, every rule ever invented breaks down at level FORTY, but still.

root9125
2009-11-30, 01:41 AM
forgive me, but I have been looking things up. I've been on a downward spiral towards suicide.

Stop right there...

Because it hasn't yet been said: This is a terrible, terrible idea. I know you probably aren't too serious about it. I've been there, just playing with the idea. For me, the simplicity of the solution lost out when weighed against the consequences. I think that's the case for everyone.

Never make a choice you can't unmake. Especially not when emotional. Got it?



On a lighter note: This is character optimization taken to an extreme. Compared to some people here, Gary Gygax would be a noob. Sure, you're a bit newer than most, but try to stick with us, okay?

A lot of the people here know what they're talking about, and get frustrated when people don't take their advice. Others don't realize there's a human on the other end of the thread, and post relatively brief and pointed criticisms.
Like me...
It's just a game, dude.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 01:50 AM
Thanks root. I needed a boost. I feel a little better. Maybe I can get better.

Anyways, I have both books (Fiendish Codex I&II) and can't find the feats you were talking about.

Myrmex
2009-11-30, 01:55 AM
They're spells, not feats. One spell turns a feat into an Abyssal Heritage feat, the other turns an Abyssal Heritage feat into any feat that you qualify for. Use these two spells to turn the 6 racial weapon proficiency feats from being an elf into anything you like.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 02:03 AM
They're spells, not feats. One spell turns a feat into an Abyssal Heritage feat, the other turns an Abyssal Heritage feat into any feat that you qualify for. Use these two spells to turn the 6 racial weapon proficiency feats from being an elf into anything you like.

Cool

what Book is Incantrix from?

averagejoe
2009-11-30, 02:18 AM
On a lighter note: This is character optimization taken to an extreme. Compared to some people here, Gary Gygax would be a noob. Sure, you're a bit newer than most, but try to stick with us, okay?

A lot of the people here know what they're talking about, and get frustrated when people don't take their advice. Others don't realize there's a human on the other end of the thread, and post relatively brief and pointed criticisms.
Like me...
It's just a game, dude.

If I might interject and expand on this subject, also remember that you came here looking for advice on how to make your character powerful, and so people are going to respond to such advice. There are probably few optimizers who will tell you to never play with a template or a fighter or what have you if you are trying to play to have fun. What you do to have fun is, ultimately, your choice anyways; no one can tell you how to do that. However, what you asked was, essentially, "How do I make this character powerful in order to win a fight," and people have responded with such advice ignoring other considerations. The people here are good at this sort of thing, and it comes from lots and lots of playtesting combined with theoretical debate, number crunching, and analysis. A lot of the work that goes toward this end is actually really impressive.

In short: no one (or almost no one) is telling you to always play a wizard or to never play a barbarian; what they are saying (among other things) is, if your goal is to win a fight, the thing to do that gives you the best chances of winning is to go full caster. I just got home from the first session of a new game; I played a wizard/warblade, and the lost caster level already hurts my effectiveness somewhat, and this is a problem that will almost certainly get worse as my guy goes up in levels. It's also one of the most fun characters I've ever played, and I probably wouldn't change any of the decisions I made given the chance. However, that said, I would give you the same advice as everyone else in terms of what you should do to win this fight against the demilitch: go wizard, and do nothing that would lose you caster levels.

Edit: Whew, that got pretentious and ranty.

ocdscale
2009-11-30, 10:55 AM
AirGuiterGod:
Reading your posts, I can tell that you have strong preferences for a certain style of gameplay. You like melee, you like templates/racial substitution levels, you like a lot of the fluff in the game.
That's cool. Honestly, there's probably a ton of people on this forum that feel similarly.

But you need to realize that the people posting in your threads are posting for (basically) one reason, to help you beat the demi-lich. They are focusing on what makes a character powerful. So they might get frustrated when you throw restrictions like "no wizards" or what have you. Bear with them, they're really on your side here.
Frankly, I'm pretty sure the good people on this forum could beat the demilich with a melee/ranged build especially given that epic magic is banned and the DM playing the demilich doesn't look like a good optimizer.

Also, has anyone done the math? I'm not sure maximize empower twin shatter x2 is enough damage in the first round because: You don't get split ray which halves your damage, and shatter damage is halved again against a demilich.

Question: Does orb of fire bypass a demilich's magic immunity in the same manner it bypasses SR? Is there a book or published errata that specifically says so? I expect the DM will argue against it to protect his mary sue.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-30, 10:59 AM
I did the math out in the lvl100 thread...with Remove Limits pre-cast (probably via Contingency), a CL45 Maximized Empowered Twinned Shatter will do 201 damage per casting after 1/2 damage and assuming he makes his save. That'd be a minimum of 402 damage, +201 for each Multispell feat.

ex cathedra
2009-11-30, 11:03 AM
Question: Does orb of fire bypass a demilich's magic immunity in the same manner it bypasses SR? Is there a book or published errata that specifically says so? I expect the DM will argue against it to protect his mary sue.

Conjuration(Creation). You aren't hitting him with magic, you're using magic to conjure an otherwise ordinary (as ordinary as it can be, at least) orb of fire . Non-epic Cindy could likely kill the demilich, if the demilich is a poorly made as it seems to be.

Kylarra
2009-11-30, 11:04 AM
There's also energize spell for +50% damage vs undead (at +1 spell level, but we don't care cuz of thesis etc) and purify spell for a dice increase to D8 (admittedly pointless due to 1/4 damage via demilich && save, but still).

ocdscale
2009-11-30, 11:15 AM
Conjuration(Creation). You aren't hitting him with magic, you're using magic to conjure an otherwise ordinary (as ordinary as it can be, at least) orb of fire . Non-epic Cindy could likely kill the demilich, if the demilich is a poorly made as it seems to be.

I understand the rationale, I'm just pretty sure the DM would rule otherwise unless someone presents him with the plain text of a ruling. (He can't risk his mary sue losing, after all)
402 looks good for shatter though.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-30, 11:17 AM
Note that it requires the aformentioned Remove Limits spell though, which at the moment, I can't find...I thought remembering it was in the Dragonlance RPG book, but it doesn't seem to be.

sofawall
2009-11-30, 03:28 PM
Note that it requires the aformentioned Remove Limits spell though, which at the moment, I can't find...I thought remembering it was in the Dragonlance RPG book, but it doesn't seem to be.

What, removing caps on CL for damage? That's Reserves of Strength, I believe. A feat, that is.

Keld Denar
2009-11-30, 04:03 PM
I understand the rationale, I'm just pretty sure the DM would rule otherwise unless someone presents him with the plain text of a ruling.

Ta da!!!! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellImmunity)



A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity.


Unless a Demilich has a different type of spell immunity, thats how it works. Spell Immunity is defined as infinite, unbeatable SR. Orbs, being Conjouration and SR:No by definition, do not check SR, and thus bypass normal immunity just fine.

Unless I'm missing something?

Kylarra
2009-11-30, 04:09 PM
If we assume reserves of strength for 1, no real point in doing more we get 46th level caster level without trying (I know we can go higher, but for the sake of numbers I'm just using 46)

Now we add: empowered, maximized, energized, repeat, twin, energy admixture (whatever).

So that gives us
46D6 maximized to 276*2 for admixture = 552 base damage.
empower and energize are both +50%; averages out to +161 damage for 713 average damage.
Twinned is counteracted by the half damage from shatter that demilich normally have, so we cut that in half again assuming a successful for 356.5 damage, which happens again on the next turn too assuming he doesn't kill you.

Given that 12+44D12 averages out to 298 hp, we're well within acceptable margins without doing much more than that.

We could boost it higher by simply increasing caster levels for another 9.5 damage per increased caster level.

Keld Denar
2009-11-30, 04:15 PM
Then there is always taint casting...

sofawall
2009-11-30, 04:19 PM
Unless I'm missing something?

You're not.

Kylarra
2009-11-30, 04:21 PM
But it's a lot less fun[ny] with orbs /whine.:smalltongue:

JeenLeen
2009-11-30, 04:46 PM
Some recommendations for spells to buff:


From Spell Compedium:
Life's Grace protects you from undead special abilities, which should limit him somewhat. Undeath's Eternal Foe does a little more.

There are also numerous Pact spells, some of which are specific Contengencies. They should give you the ability to regroup if your opponent gets a good shot at you.


Lastly, a number of Evil spells give you undead immunities, which might throw a wrench in your foe's plans. Of course, that's not an option if you serve Pelor or any other Good diety.


From Book of Exalted Deeds:
There are a lot of powerful buffs that a cleric can get. Sanctified spells are on your list. They are helpful. I don't recall any particular ones at the moment, but there are some good buffs. I don't recall if a Domain (via Contemplative or other) can give you Sublime Revelry or Starmantle, both of which give you 1/2 damage from certain things. (Your foe is more likely to use save-or-dies, though, than damaging spells.)

Real cheese:
Leadership is an option, although I imagine you want to avoid that. Having someone to buff you is nice, though.

OracleofWuffing
2009-11-30, 06:06 PM
Just so we're clear on this... The terms of this duel will allow you to have some spells up before the fight starts, right? That's sort of kind of a recurring idea in a few kinds of duels here, but if your DM or whatever officiating person does not follow that line of thought, that will influence things. I'm not saying that a character is worthless without some amount of spells up before the fight, just that adjustments will need to be taken if you can't have a number of buffs up from the get-go.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 07:29 PM
I WON! I WON! I F***ing WON!!!

The build was a Vashara Wizard(Conj) 13/ Red Wizard 10/ Incantrix 10/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/ Archmage 5

I used Perpetual Foresight, then every metamagic feat I had on a Shatter after disjunction to waste hsi resistances/immunities and just bombarded him afterword with a disentigration spell that wasted him in two rounds.

NOW he wants to become better. I showed him what I could do, and now he's not as high and mighty as before.

ex cathedra
2009-11-30, 07:31 PM
I WON! I WON! I F***ing WON!!!

The build was a Vashara Wizard(Conj) 10/ Red Wizard 10/ Incantrix 10/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 10/ Archmage 5

I used Perpetual Foresight, then every metamagic feat I had on a Shatter after disjunction to waste hsi resistances/immunities and just bombarded him afterword with a disentigration spell that wasted him in two rounds.

NOW he wants to become better. I showed him what I could do, and now he's not as high and mighty as before.

Okay, you're either just begging for attention, absurdly wrong, or lying.

Or, you owe us an explanation as to how you took 10 levels in a 7 level class.

Seatbelt
2009-11-30, 07:45 PM
Okay, you're either just begging for attention, absurdly wrong, or lying.

Or, you owe us an explanation as to how you took 10 levels in a 7 level class.



typo? I make similar mistakes in actual conversations and when books are literally right in front of me. and I'm the DM.

ex cathedra
2009-11-30, 07:51 PM
typo? I make similar mistakes in actual conversations and when books are literally right in front of me. and I'm the DM.

I've been wrong before; I simply was curious about the three veils that I wasn't previously aware of. :smallwink:

Glimbur
2009-11-30, 07:52 PM
Shouldn't Disintegrate have bounced off of his Spell Immunity? Or did he turn out to not be a Demilich?

ocdscale
2009-11-30, 08:28 PM
NOW he wants to become better. I showed him what I could do, and now he's not as high and mighty as before.

If this is true, direct him to this site and learn together.
See this as an opportunity to work together and help each other learn more about optimization.

Definitely don't use this opportunity as a way to lord it over him.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 08:44 PM
Shouldn't Disintegrate have bounced off of his Spell Immunity? Or did he turn out to not be a Demilich?

He was, I just used a Wall of Force and by some fluke, his spell, a Ray of Disintegration (he was peeved I survived a soul drain via save) bounced back and obliterated him, because even demiliches apparently aren't immune to disintegration. lol.

I'll txt him the link.

Keld Denar
2009-11-30, 09:50 PM
Someone is making up rules. Disintegrate is one of the very few things that actually dispel Walls of Force. Explicitly. And I'm curious as well about the Iot7V question posed above.

sofawall
2009-11-30, 09:55 PM
Someone is making up rules. Disintegrate is one of the very few things that actually dispel Walls of Force. Explicitly. And I'm curious as well about the Iot7V question posed above.

He edited the post Aethernox quoted.

Also, how did Disintegrate bounce off of a Wall of Force?

How did it effect him?

Keld Denar
2009-11-30, 10:02 PM
You automatically overcome your own SR, regardless. If you have SR, and you cast Cure Light Wounds on yourself, you are automatically affected. If a spell was reflected back at you, I'd imagine it would similarly affect you automatically, regardless of SR.

That still doesn't explain HOW the spell was reflected, just that if it was, it would work.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 10:03 PM
He edited the post Aethernox quoted.

Also, how did Disintegrate bounce off of a Wall of Force?

How did it effect him?

The DM stated that because I had the higher caster level and had cast this as a "counterspell" in terms of a Mage Duel, the spell was reflected by the spell and because Demiliches aren't immune to disintegration, the spell reflected and destroyed him instantly. Granted, its hokey as hell, but based on DM's rules, I won

Bob the Urgh
2009-11-30, 10:06 PM
congrats on the win

ex cathedra
2009-11-30, 10:09 PM
Demiliches are immune to Disintegration. They don't have the Spell Immunity that most golems have; Demiliches have a blanket 'Magic Immunity' that states that they're immune to all magical and supernatural effects. Spell Immunity is based on SR and SR:No spells overcome it. It's logical to assume that, as Magic Immunity doesn't have that clause, Demiliches are immune to SR:No spells. Regardless, the only spells listed as affecting Demiliches are Shatter, Dispel Evil, and Holy Smite.

So, rules are being made up. To be fair, you can't expect more from any 3.5 game using epic rules, much less epic rules at level 40.

sofawall
2009-11-30, 10:09 PM
The DM stated that because I had the higher caster level and had cast this as a "counterspell" in terms of a Mage Duel, the spell was reflected by the spell and because Demiliches aren't immune to disintegration, the spell reflected and destroyed him instantly. Granted, its hokey as hell, but based on DM's rules, I won

That is wrong.

Also, winning through houserules, while satisfying, is hardly impressive.

EDIT: @^ Besides all that, Disintegrate is SR:Yes.

Alcopop
2009-11-30, 10:29 PM
Grats anyhow! sounded fun.

jiriku
2009-12-01, 12:52 AM
Congrats! I know this was a big deal for you. I bet it felt good to show him you could handle yourself in the game too. Be sure to take his skull and make a goblet out of it.

Myrmex
2009-12-01, 01:47 AM
Be sure to take his skull and make a goblet out of it.

http://www.oglaf.com/skulls.jpg

Talakeal
2009-12-01, 04:33 AM
Reading the description of Spell Turning, Archamage, Spell Resistance, and Spell Immunity in the core rule books this situation seems perfectly legit. Are you arguing that because the demi lich's immunity is listed as "magic immunity" instead of "spell immunity" it doesn't follow the normal rules?
I can see where you are coming from, but this is a pretty slippery slope. Does that mean that, for example, a demi lich can fly through a wall of stone, or ignore attacks made by summoned creatures?

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-01, 07:28 AM
Congrats! I know this was a big deal for you. I bet it felt good to show him you could handle yourself in the game too. Be sure to take his skull and make a goblet out of it.

I kind of disintegrated him....

JeenLeen
2009-12-01, 08:43 AM
I kind of disintegrated him....

You could probably use a Wish to recreate the skull from the ashes. Waste of xp, but no harm given the situation. (Make sure to state that the gems do not regenerate, lest that somehow allow the demilich to regenerate.)

Still, congrats. I can't imagine how crazy a level 45 ECL battle could be. Sounds like it ended quick and fast, but, still, congrats.

ex cathedra
2009-12-01, 09:00 AM
Reading the description of Spell Turning, Archamage, Spell Resistance, and Spell Immunity in the core rule books this situation seems perfectly legit. Are you arguing that because the demi lich's immunity is listed as "magic immunity" instead of "spell immunity" it doesn't follow the normal rules?
I can see where you are coming from, but this is a pretty slippery slope. Does that mean that, for example, a demi lich can fly through a wall of stone, or ignore attacks made by summoned creatures?

I'm arguing that it doesn't follow the rules of Spell Immunity because it's an entirely different ability. Also, regardless of this being 'Spell Immunity' or 'Magic Immunity,' I'm fairly sure that the demilich is immune to Disintegrate.

AtwasAwamps
2009-12-01, 04:22 PM
You know what? Grats to you AGG, but on top of that, I’ve got to give a little bit of props to the DM.

Not only did he lose to his own houserules, he lost to his own houserules using a character he claimed was totally unbeatable under the terms of his houserules.

As demented and ridiculous as this whole thing is, not bad. Not bad at all.