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Wings of Peace
2009-11-28, 03:28 AM
Those familiar with the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting can skip most of this and just read the final paragraph. In a game such as D&D it should come as no surprise that their are things that break the standard molds in the fictional worlds that inhabit the system. Renegade Drow, Goblins who take on PC levels, and more all gain their intrigue not by being exemplars of their races but rather by being contradictions to the norm.

To a similar end there are some monsters that to me seem as though they should stay true to that name 'monster'. I am in this instant speaking of the Lich. That template so sought after by less morally inhibited characters. The Lich to me is often an icon of evil in a way, skeletal magi with dark sanguine orbs of tainted arcane light burning in eye sockets that have long been rotted from a millenia of existence that sit in their time worn towers or thrones clad in robes and garments laced with enchantments long forgotten to more modern magic wielders.

Despite this history there are those who have pioneered 'good' Liches. Elves within the forgotten realms have long practiced rituals that turn noble minded elves into Baelnorn, a sort of Lich to guard the tomes of their brethren for eternity. Similarly some clever and well meaning spell casters have discovered methods of becoming an Arch-Lich, a Lich who's rituals of creation are without the vileness of the standard Lich opening the way of the Lich to the more good hearted.

My question then is how many of you have worked with these kinder gentler Liches and what is your opinion on them? If it wasn't apparent I'm of the opinion they're sort of a cop-out but that does not make my opinion the only opinion.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-28, 03:31 AM
I don't think they are a cop out. Most characters worth their salt can find some way of becoming immortal anyways without using templates anyways, so if they want to play a lich of whatever alignment, let them. There's no reason good liches cant exist from either a fluff or mechanical point of view.

Optimystik
2009-11-28, 03:37 AM
What makes regular liches Evil? The MM and Libris Mortis are closemouthed on the ritual; personally, I think it was made "unspeakable" simply so the writers wouldn't have to actually come up with anything.

This is one of the reasons I like Eberron so much - "Always" is seldom that.

Wings of Peace
2009-11-28, 03:44 AM
What makes regular liches Evil? The MM and Libris Mortis are closemouthed on the ritual; personally, I think it was made "unspeakable" simply so the writers wouldn't have to actually come up with anything.

This is one of the reasons I like Eberron so much - "Always" is seldom that.

Because the MM says they're evil. :smallsmile:

But no I understand your point, my own personal bias I think is largely based on pre-existing fluff on Liches: The Netherese Liches, Belpheron (Think that's the name), etc. I always found the vagueness of the standard Lich rituals rather nice, mostly in that it seemed to grant the DM as much freedom as they might want to build up or down play the alleged horridness of the process. Granted again that is a personal bias based not on any particular mechanical fault.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-28, 04:27 AM
Baelnorn and archliches, yeah I've played with them and even as one once. I don't think they're a cop-out, so long as you run negative energy as just anouther universal force and not ethically tainted by random pointless stupid rules then why not have neutral and good undead? Once you are a high level caster there's dozens of ways of getting immortallity, if you're willing to take the LA why not have access to the package? it's not like you suddenly have a whole lot more POWER or really much of anything beyound an auto-rez effect and undead immunities.

Dixieboy
2009-11-28, 04:30 AM
I think the concept of an archlich is a bit "meh", but Baelnorn i can get behind, mostly because he is not as much a lich as an eternal guardian.

BobVosh
2009-11-28, 04:38 AM
I don't really like archlichs, the fluff is boring and ruins liches for me. Coulda just done a different type of undead.

Grumman
2009-11-28, 04:57 AM
Once you are a high level caster there's dozens of ways of getting immortallity, if you're willing to take the LA why not have access to the package?
Because the belief that good characters should be given the perks of being evil ruins both.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-28, 05:01 AM
Sounds like a job for refluffing, then?

pasko77
2009-11-28, 05:09 AM
I wouldn't know.
Being good means at least have feeling and a certain empathy towards people. Living a couple of centuries as a skeleton means:
1) you start to forget how life was
2) you don't understand any more people's uses (just ask your father or grandfather about how do they like modern times... mulitply it for 1000 years)

Then you would grow insanity and ... well... evilness.

My 2cp.

Wings of Peace
2009-11-28, 05:11 AM
I wouldn't know.
Being good means at least have feeling and a certain empathy towards people. Living a couple of centuries as a skeleton means:
1) you start to forget how life was
2) you don't understand any more people's uses (just ask your father or grandfather about how do they like modern times... mulitply it for 1000 years)

Then you would grow insanity and ... well... evilness.

My 2cp.

2.) Wouldn't this also make most Elans who live long enough evil? They're already partially detached yes but they're a far cry from evil.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-28, 05:17 AM
I wouldn't know.
Being good means at least have feeling and a certain empathy towards people. Living a couple of centuries as a skeleton means:
1) you start to forget how life was
2) you don't understand any more people's uses (just ask your father or grandfather about how do they like modern times... mulitply it for 1000 years)

Then you would grow insanity and ... well... evilness.

My 2cp.

That would make elves, Elans, demigods, outsiders, and deities all evil.

And my grandparents love modern times. It gives them modern medicine and the ability to talk to their grandchildren over the internet when they are separated by thousands of miles.

Furthermore, how do you forget how life was if you can Alter Self into a humanoid form and go party?

Wings of Peace
2009-11-28, 05:23 AM
That would make elves, Elans, demigods, outsiders, and deities all evil.

And my grandparents love modern times. It gives them modern medicine and the ability to talk to their grandchildren over the internet when they are separated by thousands of miles.

Furthermore, how do you forget how life was if you can Alter Self into a humanoid form and go party?

Problem: Jail Bait

Solution: Alter Self

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-28, 05:23 AM
Problem: Jail Bait

Solution: Alter Self

No, no. The solution is always Mindrape.

Wings of Peace
2009-11-28, 05:25 AM
No, no. The solution is always Mindrape.

I believe the politically correct term is Programmed Amnesia.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-28, 05:30 AM
I don't think so, Tim.

Wings of Peace
2009-11-28, 05:33 AM
I don't think so, Tim.

I see what you did there. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomeImprovement)

pasko77
2009-11-28, 05:59 AM
Lol, I forgot all the loopholes that allow a skeleton to be a non skeleton.
I was supposing "if limitations hold".

As for long lived beings, yes, I firmly believe that they should be a lot more "alien" to human or human/like mentality. See Elric of Melnibone as an example.

Current Background says differently, ok, I suppose it is a matter of interpretation. I think that having all these "good guys" is a little childish IMO.

As for grandparents liking modern medicine, of course, you are right. I was referring to an ancient egyptian who does not understand eliocentrism, let alone the concept of " human rights".

I guess it depends on how grim you want your background to be.

Bye, Pasko

crazedloon
2009-11-28, 06:04 AM
a good lich was one of my favorite characters. He was cursed by the gods to be a guardian for the world. As that role entailed him fighting a group of other liches and needing to protect the world over a long period of time my character was turned into a lich and hated every second of it. Actually he was a lich with a death wish without the gal to kill himself

Collin152
2009-11-28, 04:13 PM
No, no. The solution is always Mindrape.

As long as there is Mindrape in the world, Mumm-Ra Collin lives!

As for Liches of unusual alignment, Mindrape can sometimes play a part. That spell can turn the most stalwart champion of good into someone capable of performing the evil acts needed to become a lich--and it can turn them right back into who they were.
Why would someone do that, you ask? Why would someone use Mindrape, an Evil spell, to create an immortal spellcaster with a good alignment?

Why, precisely because Liches have the reputation for being evil monsters. It'd be kind of like what happened in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, when the Gypsies gave Angelus his soul to torture him with guilt; you let your lich be an evil, soulless fiend for a while, then Mindrape him back into his Good alignment without changing his memories. Except maybe the memory of where his phylactery is. That way he'll spend eternity suffering with the guilt of his actions.

Beelzebub1111
2009-11-28, 04:18 PM
Well there was a module called "The Tomb of Lyzandred the Mad" or something like that in second edition. Lyzandred was a Lawful Neutral Lich who took powerful artifacts of evil for safekeeping so that nobody could use them.