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babus
2009-11-28, 03:39 AM
While working on a character for a Core only 3.5 campaign, I hit a snag and thought that perhaps the much more learned gamers of this forum might be able to help.

What does one do when you have too many minions?

Or rather, I noted that the Animate Dead (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Animate_Dead) spell allows one to summon up to 4 Hit dice of Undead per caster level and wonder what one does to curtail the rather... disruptive amount of rolling that could result. I have looked into rules for the Swarm subtype (even going so far as to purchase a ten page guide on the subject), and rules for more conventional 'mobs', but so far the numbers required to form either seem distressingly high.

As an example, I had been interested in creating a large quantity of Undead Rabbits (Tiny 1 hit dice creatures based on the Hare Familiar in Dragon Magazine #280), but quickly realized that rolling for each creature during combat was unrealistic, even at early levels. The research above showed that it requires no less than 600 Tiny Creatures to form a Swarm, and that is only possible as a level 15 Spellcaster with the General of Undeath spell from Magic of Faerūn. In addition, the Mob rules required at least 60 'Medium' sized creatures.

Are there any rules I haven't located that would allow for an easier handling of mass units? If it matters, they would all be the same kind (Tiny 1/2 d12 Hit Dice Skeletal Undead using a modified Hare Familiar as a base).

I could of course just not play such a character, but I would have thought this sort of issue isn't that new.

Sliver
2009-11-28, 03:49 AM
Make them take aid other actions.. Average out the result maybe.. Tiny creatures can be made a swarm, Animate Dead Swarm, may be troublesome..

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-28, 03:52 AM
Don't create 1-HD monsters? A single Fireball can take out all of them anyways, why not spend the money on a Dragon instead?

babus
2009-11-28, 05:22 AM
Don't create 1-HD monsters? A single Fireball can take out all of them anyways, why not spend the money on a Dragon instead?

Because the concept amuses me, and the novelty will wear off after said fireball first hits. The question of handling a large number of minions has also been on my mind for a while, regardless.


Make them take aid other actions.. Average out the result maybe.. Tiny creatures can be made a swarm, Animate Dead Swarm, may be troublesome..

That... actually sounds like it might be exactly what I'm looking for. The DM may allow me to have them share an initiative roll for the sake of faster rounds, and that should make it a lot easier.

Thank you.

ericgrau
2009-11-28, 05:37 AM
Don't create 1-HD monsters? A single Fireball can take out all of them anyways, why not spend the money on a Dragon instead?
Maybe all the DM's wizards banned evocation? :smallbiggrin: J/k.

1 in 20 of the rabbits hit (or AB + 21 - AC out of 20, if higher). Roll randomly for each hit to determine which enemy was hit. So if there are 4 enemies being attacked you roll 1d4 for each hit. Consider getting d6's numbered 1-3 & 1-3 for d3's, another with a blank instead of a 6 (reroll) for d5's, and pennies for d2's. After you find out how many hits there are for each enemy, roll damage for each. So if a rabbit does 1d3 damage and an enemy gets hit 3 times, you roll 3d3.

babus
2009-11-28, 06:08 AM
1 in 20 of the rabbits hit (or AB + 21 - AC out of 20, if higher).

I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand that first sentence. Would you mind rephrasing it? I'm a bit new at this game, so I apologize for not grasping it.

Oslecamo
2009-11-28, 06:37 AM
Are there any rules I haven't located that would allow for an easier handling of mass units? If it matters, they would all be the same kind (Tiny 1/2 d12 Hit Dice Skeletal Undead using a modified Hare Familiar as a base).


In the DMG II there's the mob template, but it's kinda cluncky, so I point you to my revised mob template on my sig!

Here! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129179)

Granted, it's suposed to only work for creatures up to small, but I guess it wouldn't be much of a stretch to allow tiny creatures to form a mob, on the basis that each two tiny creatures count as one small.

Yuki Akuma
2009-11-28, 06:38 AM
I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand that first sentence. Would you mind rephrasing it? I'm a bit new at this game, so I apologize for not grasping it.

If no rabbit could ever hope to hit anything, then one out of every twenty rabbits will hit. A 20 always hits, after all.

If the rabbits actually stand a chance of hitting on less than a natural 20, then more will hit automatically. It saves on rolling butt-loads of dice.

Say, the rabbits have an attack bonus of +2 with their bite attack. They attack someone with an AC of 19. So, the number of rabbits that can hit this guy would be (2 + 21) 23 - 19 = 4 out of 20. They hit on a roll of 17, 18, 19 or 20.

babus
2009-11-28, 07:09 AM
If no rabbit could ever hope to hit anything, then one out of every twenty rabbits will hit. A 20 always hits, after all.

If the rabbits actually stand a chance of hitting on less than a natural 20, then more will hit automatically. It saves on rolling butt-loads of dice.

Say, the rabbits have an attack bonus of +2 with their bite attack. They attack someone with an AC of 19. So, the number of rabbits that can hit this guy would be (2 + 21) 23 - 19 = 4 out of 20. They hit on a roll of 17, 18, 19 or 20.

Ah, that makes more sense, many thanks to both of you.

@Oslecamo
That looks incredibly helpful. I'm not sure the DM will approve a non core template, but I'll show it to her.

Suropej
2009-11-28, 12:32 PM
For your Rabbit0 swarm you could use the Hivemind setup from BoVD on page 34. The basics are that the more individuals there are in the swarm, the higher the stats for the swarm can be and the swarm can get feats and skill points. They can even attain spellcasting powers as a sorcerer with enough members in the swarm.

You can use any kind of creature for this Hivemind so long as they are small enough to keep the members close enough for the effect to happen. That way you aren't just limited to vermin for the swarm.

ericgrau
2009-11-28, 01:00 PM
Oh, and if say you have 37 rabbits or 45 rabbits, just round it to 40 for the sake of sanity on the "out of 20" estimates.