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View Full Version : [3.5e] Pure druid vs. Arcane Heirophant



Edje
2009-11-28, 12:31 PM
This has been bugging me for a while, my dm has given me the option of rebuilding my level 8 druid into a 4drd/3wiz/1ArH after we stumbled across the class. I have had conflicing advice from various veterans that i know and was wondering which build is stronger overall.

For reference the Current Druid i am using:
Stats:
str -11
dex - 12
con - 18
int- 12
wis - 18
cha - 12
feat build i'm using is :
spell focus conjuration
augmented summoning
ashbound summoning
Natural spell

and the Arcane Heirophant i'm hypothetically building will have:
str - 11
dex -12
con -12
int - 18
wis - 18
cha - 12

Practiced spellcaster x2
able learner
spell focus conjuration
Augmented summoning
Natural spell
(flaws weak will, vulnerable)


So what character build will be more powerful?
(note: both will take dragon wild shape at 12th level, dm allowed it woot)

Woodsman
2009-11-28, 12:33 PM
Whichever build gives you 9th-level casting, which I'm pretty sure is the straight druid.

Eldariel
2009-11-28, 12:33 PM
Druid is more powerful. Losing 3 levels of Wildshape, Animal Companion and spellcasting (on both sides) really doesn't bode well. Early entry AH with Precocious Apprentice and Focused Specialist, taking only one level of Wizard, could be close. But as it stands, Druid wins hands down. Hell, you just got Large Wildshape.

sonofzeal
2009-11-28, 12:35 PM
Arcane Heirophant isn't what I'd call "weak". It's one of the best MT-style PrCs around, and combined with the actual MT class can get you 9th level spells on both sides. Takes a while to get rolling, but worth it in the long run. It's also just plain cool.

Melamoto
2009-11-28, 12:47 PM
Pure Druid wins in overall power, but not by enough to make Arcane Heirophant a bad choice. I'd still say it wouldn't be a bad idea, since you could support your allies with a range of spells. The only issue is weakened Wild Shape and Druid casting, which is more powerful, but you should really just pick which sounds more fun.

sonofzeal
2009-11-28, 12:54 PM
Pure Druid wins in overall power, but not by enough to make Arcane Heirophant a bad choice. I'd still say it wouldn't be a bad idea, since you could support your allies with a range of spells. The only issue is weakened Wild Shape and Druid casting, which is more powerful, but you should really just pick which sounds more fun.
Wild Shape really isn't that much of a hit. Since the BAB/hp of the form is based on you, it's perfectly viable to stay Deinonychus/Fleshraker your whole carreer and never really feel the lost levels. Once you've got Polar Bear, your bases are pretty much covered.

As for spellcasting, well yes. But I'd say that the gains on the Wizard side are pretty awesome, as Wizard casting is generally pretty superior to Druid casting.

An Arcane Heirophant is going to be really weak at first, merely decent at mid level, and come into his own in the end game. If your game is level 12 or later, I'd say AH is not really any weaker than straight Druid.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-11-28, 12:58 PM
Go Wild Elf, Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ Arcane Heirophant 10, possibly replacing one AH level with a single level dip into Seeker of the Misty Isle. For your feats take Combat Casting, Natural Bond, Natural Spell, use the Otyugh Hole to gain Iron Will, and get Practiced Spellcaster at 9 and again at 12.

Gnaeus
2009-11-28, 02:05 PM
I would look seriously at dropping 2 feats (able learner and one practiced spellcaster) for Natural Bond and Companion Spellbond. One of the areas where AH really excels is in making your companion virtually an extra party member. If you keep him at normal level (with Natural Bond) the companion benefits a lot from the addition of intelligence, Improved Evasion, and better natural armor. Follow that up with some shared buffs from both sides (Mage Armor+Barkskin+ Shield for example) and it isn't difficult for your pet to really be a superior tank.

What else is in your party? Arcane Hierophant is one of the small nerfs I use to weaken my Druids so the melee doesn't feel so bad, because it is a little weaker, but fun. If you have full casters in your party, AH will be weaker without early entry tricks.

erikun
2009-11-28, 02:13 PM
If you're talking raw power, Druid 20 wins in the end. Full casting, full wildshape, full animal companion, etc.

On the other hand, Arcane Heirophant is a sexy choice. You end up a couple of levels behind for the Druid, but the Heirophant increases just about everything* you get with both classes, if I recall.

The major thing is that you'll need to decide what to do at level 16, if the game makes it that far. Druid 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Thurge 4 gives you 9th level spellcasting on both sides, but won't progress your animal companion or wildshape. Druid 7/Wizard 3/Arcane Heirophant get you 9th level Druid spellcasting and almost the full companion/wildshape*, but lower Wizard spellcasting.

* I don't really recall what the AH gives you, so I might be wrong about the wildshape bit.

aje8
2009-11-28, 02:17 PM
Druid 20 is more powerful for the majority of the game. Better Wildshape, higher level Druid spells and better Animal Companion along with faster 9th level spells makes Druid 20 better for much of the game. At the high levels (~13+) AH will be equal cause of double 9ths and because Wizard casting will really increase in power. When the AH gets 9th level spells, AH will be stronger.

Nate the Snake
2009-11-28, 05:42 PM
* I don't really recall what the AH gives you, so I might be wrong about the wildshape bit.

It progresses wild shape, but it is somewhat fuzzier on whether it gives you wild shape if you don't already have it.

It also progresses both classes' spellcasting, druid's animal companion, and wizard's familiar, plus it turns your animal companion into a familiar.

nekomata2
2009-11-28, 05:50 PM
It also has the potentially nifty ability to cast spells through plants and animals...circumstantial, but still interesting.

Edje
2009-11-28, 08:20 PM
It also has the potentially nifty ability to cast spells through plants and animals...circumstantial, but still interesting.
it makes the animal companion all the more powerfull

*.*.*.*
2009-11-28, 09:46 PM
It's possible to get dual 9's quite easy, just take one level of wizard(or more if it floats your boat) and use precocious apprentice for a second level spell. Just remember to finish the build off with legacy champion

sonofzeal
2009-11-28, 10:51 PM
It's possible to get dual 9's quite easy, just take one level of wizard(or more if it floats your boat) and use precocious apprentice for a second level spell. Just remember to finish the build off with legacy champion
Druid 3 / Wizard 3 / Arcane Heirophant 10 / Mystic Theurge 4 gets you dual 9's, nice and easy. You really don't have to jump through any hoops whatsoever.

Edje
2009-11-28, 11:11 PM
Druid 3 / Wizard 3 / Arcane Heirophant 10 / Mystic Theurge 4 gets you dual 9's, nice and easy. You really don't have to jump through any hoops whatsoever.

actually ArH requires a bab of+4, in order to get this you need 4 drd / 3 wiz before you can take the class, as a result you can only get 9s in druid if you go to ArH to MT

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-11-28, 11:18 PM
actually ArH requires a bab of+4, in order to get this you need 4 drd / 3 wiz before you can take the class, as a result you can only get 9s in druid if you go to ArH to MT

Right, so it's Wizard 3/Druid 3/MT2/AH 10/MT+2.

Edje
2009-11-28, 11:28 PM
Right, so it's Wizard 3/Druid 3/MT2/AH 10/MT+2.

ah, but that will most defiantly screw me over as i level, gets behind on wildshape/familiar/companion something to consider though, geez if only ArH had 15 lvls

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-11-28, 11:34 PM
ah, but that will most defiantly screw me over as i level, gets behind on wildshape/familiar/companion something to consider though, geez if only ArH had 15 lvls

If fractional BAB is game, then you don't have to worry as much about the hoop jumping, since Wizard 3/Druid 3 would then qualify.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-28, 11:36 PM
If fractional BAB is game, then you don't have to worry as much about the hoop jumping, since Wizard 3/Druid 3 would then qualify.No, it doesn't. One level of MT would let you, however.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-11-28, 11:38 PM
No, it doesn't. One level of MT would let you, however.

This is what I get for doing basic math in my head. D'oh. They, still a hit to the animal companion, but, as has already been mentioned, Natural Bond (Complete Adventurer) should clear that up.

Aquillion
2009-11-29, 12:18 AM
Like most Druid PRCs that are not Planar Shepard, pure Druid is stronger, which just shows how absurdly overpowered pure Druid is. Arcane Heirophant is still plenty strong.

Devils_Advocate
2009-11-29, 06:52 AM
III. Doubt not the power of the Druid, for he is mighty.

V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice.
- The Ten Commandments of Optimization (http://forums.druidsofthecoast.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=634)


To paraphrase Frank Trollman on the subject of theurge-type classes, "If the party Fighter gets a caster cohort, and his cohort has a caster cohort, the Fighter is bringing more magical power to the table than you are. As a Fighter."

Now, granted, Leadership is a decidedly overpowered feat. And it should be noted that at high levels, keeping your Leadership score high enough to keep your cohort's level only two lower than yours requires a substantial investment in Charisma, so it's not as simple as just taking a feat.

I still feel that this assessment sort of illustrates the less than optimal nature of dual caster classes, though.

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't go ahead and play one, mind you. Ruling out everything less powerful than a full spellcaster limits you to... well, pretty much just full spellcasters. It's not like Arcane Heirophant compares unfavorably to, say, Rogue.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-29, 09:55 AM
To paraphrase Frank Trollman on the subject of theurge-type classes, "If the party Fighter gets a caster cohort, and his cohort has a caster cohort, the Fighter is bringing more magical power to the table than you are. As a Fighter."That was in reference to one of the worst Theurges I've ever seen, the True Necromancer, which loses something like 3 levels of spells from each side.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-11-29, 01:24 PM
Using Dru 4/Wiz 3/ AH10/ MT 3. you end up with 9th level spells on both sides. Take companion spellbond for the increased range on shared spells.

Iron body:Wizard spell, range: personal

You and your Familiar companion who is sentient and therefore the best animal companion EVER run around and kill everyone while you're basically impervious metal killing machines.

and that's not even the best combo available, thats just the first one I could think of. The possiblities are endless and ridiculously awsome.

yes its not quite as powerfull as a straight druid but I'm sure you can come up with a combo of wizard spells, sentient animal companion, and wildshape, and druid casting that would make it more than worth it.

Edje
2009-11-29, 11:40 PM
What would be the best feat build for a lvl 8 ArH with 2 flaws?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-29, 11:41 PM
Feats are Natural Bond, Natural Spell at 9, and...whatever. Toughness or something. Take Druid 3/Wizard 3/MT 1/AH 1. Skills are whatever you need to meet prerequisites.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-11-30, 02:02 AM
Since you have some need of intelligence, Knowledge Devotion may be worth it if you still plan on being a bear in combat or using rays against high dexterity targets.

Edje
2009-11-30, 02:24 AM
Practiced spellcaster ya or nah? and if so double up or single?

Gnaeus
2009-11-30, 08:53 AM
Feats are Natural Bond, Natural Spell at 9, and...whatever. Toughness or something. Take Druid 3/Wizard 3/MT 1/AH 1. Skills are whatever you need to meet prerequisites.

Druid 3/Wizard 3/MT 1 doesn't have BAB +4.

Gnaeus
2009-11-30, 08:55 AM
Practiced spellcaster ya or nah? and if so double up or single?

Generally yes, but probably only on one side. You only need Practiced Spellcaster for overcoming SR and for level dependent spells. You can easily fill one class spell list with buffs, utility spells, and a few save or loses and you won't notice the lack of Practiced Spellcaster.

Practiced Spellcaster, Natural Bond, Natural Spell, Companion Spellbond, should be your first 4, in my opinion.

Craft Wondrous Items may be necessary. If your DM allows wildling clasps, you want one for every body slot, which may mean making them. You also want items for every body slot your pet has.

After that, almost anything. Able Learner is OK. Improved maneuverability if you plan on spending a lot of time in the sky. Improved Toughness is ok. Spell Penetration if you will be fighting lots of stuff w/ SR. Spell Focus is OK. Multiattack or Improved Natural Attack or Improved Unarmed Strike+ Improved grapple are good if you expect to be doing a lot of melee.

Cyclocone
2009-11-30, 09:22 AM
Druid 3/Wizard 3/MT 1 doesn't have BAB +4.

I think he's assuming fractional BAB since that's usually the non-inane way to handle it.


Anyway: Feats depend on your final build. If you aren't getting wildshape, you won't need natural spell; otherwise, obviously, you do.
And make sure you get quicken spell eventually.

Also, I suppose I should ask if you're dead set on AH. You could do a decent Ardent/Psychic Theurge otherwise. Mind Crush+Face Rape, For Great Justice.

Edje
2009-11-30, 05:44 PM
Which class would make a better Summoner? (thats what i'm trying to build)

Druid gets lower diversity of summons but can get higher level ones faster, and i would give him ash bound summoning (summons get +3 tohit and last 2x as long), also it gets full wild shape and much higher HP

ArH gets better diversity more low level slots but doesn't keep up in summons strength, gets stronger overall companion

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-30, 05:53 PM
How does your DM feel about homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95336)?

Zaydos
2009-11-30, 06:04 PM
If you're allowed to use Unearthed Arcana's specialist wizard variants a conjurer allows you to trade your Familiar for standard action summons and scribe scroll for augment summoning as a bonus feat. You'd have to check the wording and with your DM about giving up your familiar and an Arcane Hierophant's familiar companion or if all else fails take Obtain Familiar since Augment Summoning frees up a slot. Not sure if it's worth it still.

Edje
2009-11-30, 06:16 PM
If you're allowed to use Unearthed Arcana's specialist wizard variants a conjurer allows you to trade your Familiar for standard action summons and scribe scroll for augment summoning as a bonus feat. You'd have to check the wording and with your DM about giving up your familiar and an Arcane Hierophant's familiar companion or if all else fails take Obtain Familiar since Augment Summoning frees up a slot. Not sure if it's worth it still.

do you need spell focus conjuration to take augment as a bonus feat?

Stephen_E
2009-11-30, 06:22 PM
If you like having an uber-Companion/Familiar take BeastMaster - Comp Adventuer

Druid 3, Wizard 3, Beastmaster 1, Arcane Heriophant
You need to take Skill Focus Animal Handling.
This cost you 1 lev of casting on both sides, and 1 lev of wildshape, but adds +3 to your Druid level for Animal Companion purposes, and counts as a Druid lev for Animal Comp purposes.
With Natural Bond this allows you to take an advanced Animal Companion of -3 and still count as a 8th lev druid for it's abilities.

Note - if you invest in a headband of Intellect for your Animal Comp the Improved Trip feat chain becomes available for it. :-)
If it is already has a trip attack it can become a true trip meister. Whenever it hits it gets 2 trip attempts, 1 of which it can't be tripped back. :-)


Stephen E

Paul H
2009-12-16, 07:01 AM
Hi

I don't own Races of the Wild. Is there somewhere online I could download the Arcane Heirophant info for free?

Cheers
Paul H

Optimystik
2009-12-16, 07:34 AM
It's not OGL, so you'll either have to pony up or collect the scraps diligently via Google. I'm sure you can find the most important bits with enough searching.

Fishy
2009-12-16, 08:24 AM
If we're feeling cheesy, why not get your arcane side through Versatile Spellcaster and a single level in Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necromancer?

Druid 3/Dread Necro 1/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant -> More MT.

In exchange for some feats, one caster level, and probably your wildshape, you get 9th level arcane spells, DMM with your Druid spells, and that nifty infinite negative-energy touch attack. Seems fair to me.

sadi
2009-12-17, 04:47 PM
What would be the best feat build for a lvl 8 ArH with 2 flaws?

Actually have one right now, I took the -1 ac and -2 to range attacks. The -2 to range attacks isn't that big when all your range attacks are touch. I did the druid 4/wizard3 into it.
Honestly even as the only "real" caster in the party I feel dissatisfied most of the time. Part of that could be the fact that I have no down time to make items I want, and the party in general doesn't get treasure except the one session where we got a huge haul. Of course over 3/4 of the items we found were cursed in some way. Add in the fact that once I finally got my special companion the DM forced us into a dungeon where it was useless. I don't know if it's the campaign I'm in or if the -3/-4 levels on spell progression is doing it, but I'm definitely not satisfied with the character.

deuxhero
2009-12-17, 06:02 PM
G other:wizard 1/Druid 3/AH++++

Use that something or other aprentice feat to get 2nd level wizard spells with 1 level of wizard.