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Krahe
2009-11-28, 05:08 PM
Getting ready to run a new character, a half-drow sorcerer. Now, I found out that the party is short a divine caster, and because of some back story developments, I was thinking of picking up a level of Favored Soul (Mystra).

I was wondering if anyone out there had any experience with playing a combined divine/arcane caster, if you have any suggestions on feat progression, or if I should just stick to pure sorcerer? (My original plan)

Also, I am still a little hazy on multi-classing, especially when it comes to casters. Do I retain access to both schools, and their respective spells/spells per day?

Thanks in advance...
~KRAHE

tyckspoon
2009-11-28, 05:14 PM
Caster lists and spells/day are maintained separately, yes. You would have your Sorcerer caster level + spells/day, and then your Favored Soul caster level + spells.

Mechanically, it's a pretty bad idea. You're taking the normal weaknesses of multiclassing different spellcasting classes (falling behind on your spell level progression) and combining it with the weaknesses of spontaneous classes (limited spells known and, more importantly, even slower spell level progression.) If you want to provide divine support for the party you would be better off, strictly mechanically speaking, by taking a level of something has UMD as a class skill and just faking it for divine scrolls of the more important spells (this is mostly better because it also lets you get UMD for all kinds of other nifty stuff. If you do just want the divine list in particular, you can get that with Favored Soul too.)

Eldan
2009-11-28, 05:19 PM
The problem is that the sorcerer is behind on spellcasting compared to the wizard, and, if you went with a kind of double-caster class, such as the mystic theurge, you'd be quite a bit behind on spell levels. Perhaps you could take the feat which lets you learn a cleric domain as a spellcaster and pick healing? Arcane Disciple, it was called, I think.

In case of double-casting, you'd get access to spells from both, normally, keeping the same spells per day as well.

Myrmex
2009-11-28, 05:55 PM
I'm playing an erudite/wizard/cerebremancer with some early entry method tricks, and just being one spell level behind is rough. Having to fight CR equivalent casters with 3rd level effects while I'm still stuck with 2nd is a bummer.

Multiclassing favored soul & sorcerer would be abysmal, as you'd be 2 spell levels behind, barring any loredrake cheese.

Tiktakkat
2009-11-28, 06:02 PM
I have seen one in play as a DM.
Generally, they suck.
You gain the benefit of nearly endless spells per day, but you suffer as tyckspoon said, combining slower spell progression with slower spell progression.

Taking the idea of mystic theurge as the base (which is about the best thing you could hope for with such an idea), you get the following:
1st-2nd level S 1/FS 1 Your spells/day keep you competitive
5th level S 4/FS 1 or S 1/FS 4 You are 5th level and have finally gotten your first 2nd level spell
8th level S 4/FS 4 You are 8th level and have endless spell slots, but no 3rd level spells
9th level S 4/FS 4/MT 1 You are 9th level and still have no 3rd level spells
10th level S 4/FS 4/MT 2 You know 2 3rd level spells! At 10th level. Assuming you survived this long. Assuming the party survived this long. Assuming the party did not abandon you for being useless this long.

The build is somewhat more powerful if you go for one of the alternate arcane spontaneous classes, particularly warmage, because you get a bunch of spells available as soon as you have access to a new arcane spell level. That will limit what kind of arcane caster you are, and leave your divine spell slots free for nearly pure healing. The problem is, you will still not get 3rd level spells until 10th level.

If you can handle being a sub-par cohort in combat, who never runs out of spells, then go for it. Just remember that is what you will be reduced to more often than not, as you are going to be 2 spell levels behind another caster forever.

Thurbane
2009-11-28, 06:24 PM
There's more to consider than raw power - a Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Mystic Theurge is going to have more utility than a pure Sorcerer...especially if the party lacks a divine caster.

Gnaeus
2009-11-28, 06:39 PM
Don't get too attached to those "Unlimited spells". When you do the math, single classed casters often come out having more spells then the dual progression ones. This is even more true if you exclude the lowest spell levels.

For example, (assuming 1 bonus spell per level, +1 for domain or specialization) an 11th level wizard or cleric has roughly
3 6th level
4 5th level
5 4th level
6 3rd-1st level

30 spells.

A 4/4/3 Sorc/Favored Soul/MT has roughly
10 3rd level
14 2nd level
14 1st level

38 spells.

But if you are fighting a CR 11 opponent, are 2 1st level spells really going to do the job as well as 1 6th level spell?

But wait, theres more! You need to burn a feat for practiced spellcaster on one or both sides to keep your caster level up. Then you have to maintain 2 casting stats.

Dual progression classes are great if you have a prestige class with its own spellcasting (Sublime Chord, Ur-Priest). They are better if your DM allows early entry (Versatile Spellcaster). They don't suck as much if the dual progression class allows you to keep all your best class features (Arcane Hierophant). Normal entry Mystic Theurge is only viable in completely unoptimized parties with other sub par character builds.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 06:42 PM
There's more to consider than raw power - a Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Mystic Theurge is going to have more utility than a pure Sorcerer...especially if the party lacks a divine caster.

This combo is pretty bad though. It drops you down 2 spell levels. If he doesn't have the character entered yet, he could, in theory, use early entry tricks, but the level is always gonna be lower on the sorceror side.

Then there's the fact that Wisdom determines what level of spell you cast for favored soul, and Cha determines bonuses. Dual stat MAD is never fun.

That said, it is a possibility, if you don't mind a big drop in power. You'll be casting haste while a dedicated caster is dropping Wall of Force.

When you get 4th level spells, someone dedicated gets Contingency.

The difference is staggering.

Thurbane
2009-11-28, 06:45 PM
Normal entry Mystic Theurge is only viable in completely unoptimized parties with other sub par character builds.
Yes, because everyone's D&D experience is exactly the same. This kind of advice is heavily dependent on a lot of variables that anyone who hasn't played with said group just wouldn't know. The type of adventure. The DM's style. The groups playstyle. Heck, we don't even know what the other party members are.

This kind of statement irks me. In my group, for example, we have a Fighter and a Monk, who pull their weight and shine in combat. We have a Druid who isn't Codzilla. And none of us deliberately gimps out characters to let the low tier classes shine. Blanket statements about what will and won't work in a D&D group, without having all the relevant facts, are fairly erroneous...

Thurbane
2009-11-28, 06:53 PM
Then there's the fact that Wisdom determines what level of spell you cast for favored soul, and Cha determines bonuses. Dual stat MAD is never fun.
Actually, CHA determine's the FS highest spells level, and bonus spells - WIS only determines save DC, so if you primarily use buffs and other no-save spells, it doesn't matter that much.

Also, the highest level spell isn't necessarily the best spell for a situation, especially outside of combat. Rope Trick is going to be more useful than Teleport in many situations.

Gnaeus
2009-11-28, 06:56 PM
There's more to consider than raw power - a Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Mystic Theurge is going to have more utility than a pure Sorcerer...especially if the party lacks a divine caster.

That is entirely unclear. They have close to equal numbers of spells known, but the pure sorcerer has a lot more spells known at higher levels. 5th level utility spells have more utility than 1st or 2nd level utility spells.

If the party has a pure divine or arcane caster, the MT is doomed to look like a gimp by comparison. Heck, if your fighter takes the Leadership feat, and chooses a Cleric or Wizard cohort, the Fighter is putting better spells into the battle than you are (At PC level 11, the mystic theurge is casting 3rd level spells, the cohort is casting 5th levels.

Gnaeus
2009-11-28, 07:00 PM
Also, the highest level spell isn't necessarily the best spell for a situation, especially outside of combat. Rope Trick is going to be more useful than Teleport in many situations.

But the pure caster gets the option of knowing Rope Trick AND Teleport. And many of the higher level spells are higher level because they are BETTER. Overland Flight and Levitate are not equal in their utility. Monster Summoning V and Monster Summoning 1 are not equal in their utility. Knock and Passwall are not equal in their utility.

Thurbane
2009-11-28, 07:05 PM
That is entirely unclear. They have close to equal numbers of spells known, but the pure sorcerer has a lot more spells known at higher levels.
Really?

Sorcerer 20 knows: 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3

43 spells

Sorc 6/FS 4/MT 10 knows: 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 + 9 6 6 6 6 5 4 3

82 spells

...close to double.

Gnaeus
2009-11-28, 07:10 PM
Yes, because everyone's D&D experience is exactly the same. This kind of advice is heavily dependent on a lot of variables that anyone who hasn't played with said group just wouldn't know. The type of adventure. The DM's style. The groups playstyle.

No. Not really. The OP asked if he was better going with MT or pure sorcerer. Pure sorcerer or pure FS is pretty much always better. As Tyckspoon said, he would be better off taking 1 level of rogue and maxing his UMD than burning 4 for Mystic Theurge if his party needs some divine support.



This kind of statement irks me. ...

Good. Giving people bad character advice that will result in gimped characters irks me. I guess we have irked each other.

Gnaeus
2009-11-28, 07:14 PM
Really?

Sorcerer 20 knows: 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3

43 spells

Sorc 6/FS 4/MT 10 knows: 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 + 9 6 6 6 6 5 4 3

82 spells

...close to double.

Sorry. I misspoke. I didn't mean at higher character level he knew more spells. I meant that at equal character level, he knew more spells of his higher spell levels. In your example, 3 9th level spells and 3 8th levels versus 1 8th level. Say, Wish, Shapechange, Gate, Polymorph any Object, Prismatic Wall, and Summon Monster 8 instead of one of the 6.

Golden-Esque
2009-11-28, 07:30 PM
Arcane Disciple, it was called, I think.

This'll save you a lot of trouble, but your Drow would have to worship a Deity that granted the Healing domain (which'll do what you want). Sadly, Loth thinks Healing is for b$#%#@S :(.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 07:38 PM
But the pure caster gets the option of knowing Rope Trick AND Teleport. And many of the higher level spells are higher level because they are BETTER. Overland Flight and Levitate are not equal in their utility. Monster Summoning V and Monster Summoning 1 are not equal in their utility. Knock and Passwall are not equal in their utility.

+1.

Yes, the combo class gets a bit of versatility, in that they can gain spell TYPES that are different than sorc/wiz can get. Curing and such.

However, casters are among the worst types to dip. 1-2 levels are bad. Like, really bad.

Dual-Progression is reasonably ok, provided you can minimize the caster level loss. If that's the case, you're ok. Otherwise, no matter what low level versatility you gain, you're gonna flat out be weaker than the other.

That's fine, provided you're ok with that. But in terms of raw power and versatility in school, a single class caster will beat a dual-class (with no early entry) every single time.

EDIT: Also note: a Sorc 6/ FavSoul 4 /MT 10 will have the following to CAST each day:
6 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 = 50 spells per day
6 6/6/6/6/6/5/3 = 44 spells per day

versus a Sorc 20 (or other fullcast PrC combination):

6 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6 = 60 spells per day

This looks like the MT has 50% more spells per day. He does. That's deceptive though.

{table=header]Spell Level | Sorc | MT
0 | 6 | 12
1 | 6 | 12
2 | 6 | 12
3 | 6 | 12
4 | 6 | 12
5 | 6 | 12
6 | 6 | 11
7 | 6 | 8
8 | 6 | 3
9 | 6 | 0[/table]

Yes, at level 0-6, there's a marked advantage. However, at level 7, it's minor, and at level 8, the pure sorceror has twice the casting power. At level 9? The MT doesn't even have spells.

Not to mention, this same class, at level 10?

{table=Header]Spell Level | Sorceror | Sorc/FavSoul
0 | 6 | 12
1 | 6 | 12
2 | 6 | 8
3 | 6 | 3
4 | 5 | -
5 | 3 | -[/table]
Sorceror has 32 spells per day, favored soul/sorc has 35.

At levels 0-1, the Dual progression has that marked advantage. At level 3? The sorceror has double the spells. At level 4 and 5, the sorceror has spells, and the Dual class hasn't even gotten those levels. Even at Sorc 4/Fav soul 4/MT 2, this is true, though in that case the level 2 advantage will be more pronounced, and the level 3 will tie. But that's 8 spells of level 4 and 5 that the dual class doesn't have. On average, 2 spells per encounter that the pure class can cast that the dual class can't match in power. Beyond that, the sorc has another 3 spells per encounter at level 3 and 2. That's 5 spells per encounter at level 2 or higher.

The Dual progression (assuming 10 at level 2, and 6 at level 3, for a 4/4/2 MT) has 4 spells per encounter at level 2 or higher.

Thurbane
2009-11-28, 10:59 PM
Well, if the party has no other divine caster, I still say the Sorc/FS combo offers the party more versatility...my 2 cents anyway.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-11-28, 11:13 PM
If you have access to Heroes of Horror (and don't mind being Int based, instead), I would recommend Wizard/Archivist into Mystic Theurge. It still suffers from being a Theurge class, but it is a little more manageable.

Alternatively, grab something with UMD and just use Wands of CLW or Lesser Vigor to patch up the party. If you go this route, I recommend Beguiler with Able Learner, if you plan on multiclassing, to keep UMD high.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 11:18 PM
If you have access to Heroes of Horror (and don't mind being Int based, instead), I would recommend Wizard/Archivist into Mystic Theurge. It still suffers from being a Theurge class, but it is a little more manageable.

Alternatively, grab something with UMD and just use Wands of CLW or Lesser Vigor to patch up the party. If you go this route, I recommend Beguiler with Able Learner, if you plan on multiclassing, to keep UMD high.

UMD is the way to go here. Halfway healers are fine for out of combat, but struggle to keep up in a fight.

Much like a wand.

Pie Guy
2009-11-28, 11:22 PM
But with decent arcane support, the party won't need versatility. A party can function without a healer just fine.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-28, 11:24 PM
That said, could a Sorc 2/FS 1/Mt 10/Sorc 6/FS 1(using Versatile Spellcaster and either bloodlines or Heighten) be decent? Seems like a possibility IMHO.

Pie Guy
2009-11-28, 11:28 PM
That said, could a Sorc 2/FS 1/Mt 10/Sorc 6/FS 1(using Versatile Spellcaster and either bloodlines or Heighten) be decent? Seems like a possibility IMHO.

It would dominate any noncaster class, but it wouldn't get ninth level spells.

Just a bit short of destroying the timespace continuum.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 11:30 PM
That said, could a Sorc 2/FS 1/Mt 10/Sorc 6/FS 1(using Versatile Spellcaster and either bloodlines or Heighten) be decent? Seems like a possibility IMHO.

It'd be a full Str sorc, with a side of Favored soul. Not bad.

Sorceror 3 / Monk 2 / Ur Priest 2 / MT 8 / Sorceror +5 would be good too, under the same guidelines for early entry.

You'd have 16th level sorc casting, and CL 18 for Ur Priest, at the very least.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-28, 11:30 PM
It would dominate any noncaster class, but it wouldn't get ninth level spells.

Just a bit short of destroying the timespace continuum.9th sorc, 6th FS. That's why I tossed the last level of FS in there.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 11:32 PM
Alternately:

Bard 5/Monk 2/ Ur Priest 1/ToB 2 / Sublime Chord 1 / MT 9
Will get you 9th level Arcane and Divine.

Pie Guy
2009-11-28, 11:34 PM
9th sorc, 6th FS. That's why I tossed the last level of FS in there.

Damn, I misread that.

Krahe
2009-11-28, 11:52 PM
Thanks for all the info, my fellow Dice Rolling Fiends!

I am thinking I am just going to go pure Sorc, and just try and keep myself alive :-)

I have never really done well at multi classing, so you guys have actually helped me alot, not only as a player, but as a DM to make some slightly more powerful BBEG's.

Mongoose87
2009-11-28, 11:59 PM
Would this work?

Pick up a level of Rainbow Servant, which gets you a domain, therefore divine spells.

Take levels of contemplative, to get more domains, and more divine spells.

Thurbane
2009-11-29, 12:05 AM
But with decent arcane support, the party won't need versatility. A party can function without a healer just fine.
Again, that's very hard to say without knowing about the rest of the party...

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-11-29, 12:26 AM
Again, that's very hard to say without knowing about the rest of the party...

Not really. Healing is the function of wand, practically. Now, the other abilities (read, spells) that come along with a divine caster are nice, but healing? That's a wand's job.

Roderick_BR
2009-11-29, 02:34 AM
If you want to go with the sorcerer/favored soul thing, ask your DM if he homebrew you a rule to enter the Mythic Theurge early. Something like sorcerer 2/favored soul 2 (yes, even cheaper than wizard/cleric), so you can enter MT at 5th level. That would be a bit less bad.

at 5th level (Sor2/FS2/MT1), you'd have
Arcane (as a 3th level sorcerer):
0: 6 (known 5)
1st: 5 (known 3)
Divine (as a 3th level FS)
0: 6 (known 5)
1st: 5 (known 4)

at 6th level (Sor2/FS2/MT2), you'd have
Arcane (as a 4th level sorcerer):
0: 6 (known 6)
1st: 6 (known 6)
2nd: 3 (known 3)
Divine (as a 4th level FS)
0: 6 (known 5)
1st: 6 (known 4)
2nd: 3 (known 3)

At 7th level (Sor2/FS2/MT3) You would *still* not have 3rd level spells
Arcane (as a 5th level sorcerer):
0: 6 (known 6)
1st: 6 (known 4)
2nd: 4 (known 2)
Divine (as a 5th level FS)
0: 6 (known 6)
1st: 6 (known 5)
2nd: 4 (known 3)

Only at 8th level (Sor2/FS2/MT4) You'd learn ONE 3rd level spell for your sorcerer's list (the FS spells known list is a bit more generous)
Arcane (as a 6th level sorcerer):
0: 6 (known 7)
1st: 6 (known 4)
2nd: 5 (known 2)
3rd: 5 (known 1)
Divine (as a 6th level FS)
0: 6 (known 7)
1st: 6 (known 5)
2nd: 5 (known 4)
3rd: 3 (known 3)

So, the best option, would play a wizard/archivist (both use Int), see if your DM allow Precocious Apprentice to earn you early entrance into MT, and pic reserve feats to keep you semi-spontaneous (though you'll already have a crapload of spells).

Thurbane
2009-11-29, 02:58 AM
Not really. Healing is the function of wand, practically. Now, the other abilities (read, spells) that come along with a divine caster are nice, but healing? That's a wand's job.
And who uses the wand? Again, there is an assumption that someone has sufficient UMD, or someone has it on a class list.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-29, 03:41 AM
Would this work?

Pick up a level of Rainbow Servant, which gets you a domain, therefore divine spells.

Take levels of contemplative, to get more domains, and more divine spells.

I have to agree, to a degree

Rainbow Servant is nice, minus slight context flaws. Why would a drow join a neo-hippie order of isolationist sorcerers?

And as for Contemplative, I enjoy the class both structurally and "flavorally?".

Considering I ran a party with a Sorcerer10/FaveSoul10/Archmage5/Hierophant5 who was a Human and worshipped Wee Jas, she was an amusing piece of work to say the least. using class combos that were odd, yet awesome.

Personally, I'd suggest a Half-Red Dragon Kobold Wu Jen(Water)10 Shugenja(Cold)10 Frost Mage10. Some healing, cold damage outta the wazoo (and I don't even know what a wazoo is! lol) and immunities to both cold and fire.