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View Full Version : Is Ultimate Magus an 'ok' class? [3.5]



_Zoot_
2009-11-28, 10:46 PM
I'm just wondering, is it a class that can keep up with other classes or does it fall behind and become useless? One of my Friends was telling me that it can be REALLY broken, but i'm not sure that I believe him as it involved direct damage spells =P

If it is not a good class what would it take to make it playable?

I'm asking because I love the idea of a combined Wizard/Sorcerer (with more emphasis on Sorcerer).

Hope all that makes sense....

arguskos
2009-11-28, 10:49 PM
If you use an early entry trick such as Practiced Spellcaster, it's pretty strong. Sorc 1/Wizard 4/UM 10/something to progress Wizard 5 with Prac. Spellcaster (Sorc) is fun stuff.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-28, 10:51 PM
Unfortunately, the "more emphasis on the Sorcerer" bit is going to be hard - the class seems (to me) to focus on alleviating some of the Wizard's weaknesses with a bit of Spontaneous spellcasting. That said, it ends up giving you more spells known for Sorcerer, so hey, there's little else that a Sorcerer would want more. The entry requirements just mean you have to focus on Wizard early.

At any rate, though, as far as "theurge" classes go, Ultimate Magus is one of the very few decent ones. Yes, it can work quite nicely. Practiced Spellcaster can be very useful for forcing your dropped levels to go to the class you're not focusing on.

However, you're better off with Wizard/Beguiler, as you get dual Int casting that way, rather than Wizard/Sorcerer. There are no Cha-based prepared casters, so there's no way to get a SAD UM using Sorcerer. Not that a Sorcerer/Wizard/UM is bad, just not quite as good.

Edwin
2009-11-28, 10:51 PM
If you use an early entry trick such as Practiced Spellcaster, it's pretty strong. Sorc 1/Wizard 4/UM 10/something to progress Wizard 5 with Prac. Spellcaster (Sorc) is fun stuff.

Do this. Ultimate Magus is awesome. Double the spellcasting, with barely any drawbacks.

Mongoose87
2009-11-28, 10:56 PM
Do this. Ultimate Magus is awesome. Double the spellcasting, with barely any drawbacks.

Better than double the casting. You use one side to fuel the other side's meta magic! That is win!

Tyndmyr
2009-11-28, 11:01 PM
It's...ok. You can make a good high level build with it, but at low levels, and especially when trying to qualify for it, you'll be pretty gimped. Frigging awesome in gestalt, though.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-28, 11:03 PM
It's...ok. You can make a good high level build with it, but at low levels, and especially when trying to qualify for it, you'll be pretty gimped. Frigging awesome in gestalt, though.Not really. Wizard 4 is normal. You lose one CL for the Beguiler dip after that, but for the rest of the game, you're only one CL behind a normal Wizard, so it's not bad. And cheap metamagic is always nice.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-28, 11:04 PM
Usually not allowed in Gestalt, though a lot of DMs will allow it if you qualify entirely on one side.

Anyway, qualifying for it hurts much less than qualifying for any other Theurge (except maybe Eldritch Disciple and Jade Phoenix Mage), so from that perspective, it's actually rather nice for low levels (compared to the others).

A Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1 is still pretty good, after all.

Myrmex
2009-11-28, 11:05 PM
It's...ok. You can make a good high level build with it, but at low levels, and especially when trying to qualify for it, you'll be pretty gimped. Frigging awesome in gestalt, though.

Ehh, gimped is an awfully strong word. You'll definitely feel the lost caster level, but you only have to suffer through 4 or 5 levels before your build starts taking off.

Sorc1/wizard1 + precocious apprentice or beguiler 1/wizard1 + versatile spellcaster will probably be more powerful than wizard2, simply because you get 2x the spells /day. By 3rd level, though, you're going to really miss your lost level.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-11-28, 11:08 PM
It is one of the better combo classes, up there with the likes of Anima Mage, Arcane Heirophant, and Abjurant Champion.

I prefer going Beguiler over sorcerer, since the focus is all on Int. Beguiler 1/Wizard4/UM10/Wizard PrCs 5 with practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler) is great, leaving you only one level behind on wizard casting till ECL 12, after which it's two. If you felt like it, you could grab (and retrain) the two feats from Cityscape that would let you enter at Beguiler 1/Wizard 3, so you would only ever be behind one wizard level of casting, but that is probably unnecessary.

Sure, losing caster levels sucks, but, like with the Malconvoker, here it's actually worth the investment due to an extra list of spells, a source of "free" metamagic, and access to some of the more interesting spontaneous spellcaster tricks like Versatile Spellcaster.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-28, 11:08 PM
Sorc1/wizard1 + precocious apprentice or beguiler 1/wizard1 + versatile spellcaster will probably be more powerful than wizard2, simply because you get 2x the spells /day. By 3rd level, though, you're going to really miss your lost level.If I was starting that low, I'd not take the 1st level of Beguiler on 1. The extra hit point and 16 skills are nice, but only matter if your build can reach the levels where you get UM. Pure wizard, with a dip the level before you take the PrC, is nearly identical, and far better at low levels.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-28, 11:14 PM
Actually, qualifying for Sublime Chord ain't bad either. The level 10 starting is annoying, but you only need one level of bard to fulfill that half of the requirement. It isn't perfect(stupid levels that only boost weaker class), but it also grants you access to a ridiculously broad spell list.

The theurge classes invariably are extremely light on feat requirements to enter, they just require some reasonable skills, and casting. Meeting the casting requirements is the only sticky part, generally.

I find lost caster levels are generally quite painful early and midgame. It's not until several levels into the theurge part of the build that the added spells of the secondary class really become useful. After all, sorc already gets it's spells a level behind wiz...adding more on top of that means it's well behind what a stock wizard would get.

That said, if you abuse the feats for wizard sorc that let you cast a single spell as the other class, you can qualify for it while single classed, technically. I leave it to your imagination what fun you can have with that.

Myrmex
2009-11-28, 11:16 PM
If I was starting that low, I'd not take the 1st level of Beguiler on 1. The extra hit point and 16 skills are nice, but only matter if your build can reach the levels where you get UM. Pure wizard, with a dip the level before you take the PrC, is nearly identical, and far better at low levels.

I like hide & spot as class skills, and at level 2, having a passive +12 to hide and +8 to move silent is really sweet. It's like having free invisibility. Being able to assist the party trap monkey in finding & disarming with aid another is also useful. With versatile spellcaster, you can keep the beguiler side relevant as you gain levels.

_Zoot_
2009-11-28, 11:34 PM
Thanks for the advice, one question, what is 'Practiced Spellcaster' (besides a feat) and were can i find it?

arguskos
2009-11-28, 11:36 PM
Thanks for the advice, one question, what is 'Practiced Spellcaster' (besides a feat) and were can i find it?
Well, it's a feat (:smalltongue:). It's in Complete Arcane, on page 82.

_Zoot_
2009-11-29, 12:01 AM
Well, it's a feat (:smalltongue:). It's in Complete Arcane, on page 82.

Thanks!

*shoots* :smalltongue:

arguskos
2009-11-29, 12:03 AM
Thanks!

*shoots* :smalltongue:
*dies* Punk.

No, really, it's a good class, and fun too. And, no matter what people here say, playing a Sorc/Wiz or Beg/Wiz and NOT doing an early entry isn't all that bad actually. I've played it as it was intended, and it's still plenty of fun.

Myrmex
2009-11-29, 12:09 AM
*dies* Punk.

No, really, it's a good class, and fun too. And, no matter what people here say, playing a Sorc/Wiz or Beg/Wiz and NOT doing an early entry isn't all that bad actually. I've played it as it was intended, and it's still plenty of fun.

With 8 ranks in spellcraft required, there really aren't any early entry tricks. Beguiler1/Wizard4 works just fine.

arguskos
2009-11-29, 12:11 AM
With 8 ranks in spellcraft required, there really aren't any early entry tricks. Beguiler1/Wizard4 works just fine.
Hurpdurp. I meant to offset the fact that without Practiced you will never get 9th level casting. Thanks for the correction in terminology. :smallcool:

Chrono22
2009-11-29, 12:13 AM
Not that there is really a point to it.. but does the feat Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Arcane allow a beguiler to qualify for Ultimate Magus without multiclassing?

HamHam
2009-11-29, 12:16 AM
Being an Illumian is also a really good choice. It lets you lose no Wiz levels while taking UM and gets you like free Heighten for two levels of spells and other good stuff.

Flickerdart
2009-11-29, 12:26 AM
Not that there is really a point to it.. but does the feat Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Arcane allow a beguiler to qualify for Ultimate Magus without multiclassing?
How would it? You're not a prepared caster.

Some people insist that Wizard with Spontaneous Divination can progress both sides as Wizard. I'm not sure how that works, though.

Chrono22
2009-11-29, 12:31 AM
How would it? You're not a prepared caster.

Some people insist that Wizard with Spontaneous Divination can progress both sides as Wizard. I'm not sure how that works, though.
Practiced Spellcaster lets you prepare spontaneous spells as a wizard. Beguilers are int-based, and cast spells spontaneously.
It's cheesy, but if Practiced Spellcaster is a legal shortcut into Ultimate Magus, it should work.
I'm not sure, but that might or might not mean Ultimate Magus would advance your beguiler caster levels twice per level.

This is of course all hypothetical. I'd fully expect any sane DM to smack his player with a nerf bat if he tried it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-29, 12:33 AM
Practiced Spellcaster lets you prepare spontaneous spells as a wizard. Beguilers are int-based, and cast spells spontaneously.
It's cheesy, but if Practiced Spellcaster is a legal shortcut into Ultimate Magus, it should work.
I'm not sure, but that might or might not mean Ultimate Magus would advance your beguiler caster levels twice per level.

This is of course all hypothetical. I'd fully expect any sane DM to smack his player with a nerf bat if he tried it.That's not Practiced Spellcaster. All PS does is add 4 to your CL to a max of your HD. It's not a shortcut into UM, it just makes it so all of the lost caster levels are on one side.

Gralamin
2009-11-29, 12:34 AM
With 8 ranks in spellcraft required, there really aren't any early entry tricks. Beguiler1/Wizard4 works just fine.

Actually, there is.

Make sure, at level 3 (or 4 or whatever is required), that you are ready to go into it at level 4 (or 5), if you had 8 ranks of spellcraft. Ensure you have at least 6 ranks in spellcraft, and a few ranks in a dummy skill. Get a level 9 bard to use inspire greatness on you, and then get a psion to cast Psychic reformation on you. Since the bonus hit dice count for purposes of spells, and through transparency powers, you can now allocate ranks from your dummy skill to spellcraft, meeting the skill requirement early. Since max skill ranks is only checked when you assign skills, and are put there by an instantaneous effect, you now have early entry ready. Not sure if it works 100% by RAW, but it's something interesting. (I take no credit for this - it was actually pointed out by DocRoc)

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-11-29, 12:34 AM
Practiced Spellcaster lets you prepare spontaneous spells as a wizard. Beguilers are int-based, and cast spells spontaneously.
It's cheesy, but if Practiced Spellcaster is a legal shortcut into Ultimate Magus, it should work.
I'm not sure, but that might or might not mean Ultimate Magus would advance your beguiler caster levels twice per level.

This is of course all hypothetical. I'd fully expect any sane DM to smack his player with a nerf bat if he tried it.

Er, Practicted Spellcaster allows you to treat your caster level as up to your +4, up to your HD. You're thinking of Arcane Preparation, which lets spont casters to prepare spells.

EDIT Ninjas!

Chrono22
2009-11-29, 12:34 AM
Oh, my bad, I meant Arcane Preperation.

tyckspoon
2009-11-29, 12:35 AM
Practiced Spellcaster lets you prepare spontaneous spells as a wizard. Beguilers are int-based, and cast spells spontaneously.
It's cheesy, but if Practiced Spellcaster is a legal shortcut into Ultimate Magus, it should work.
I'm not sure, but that might or might not mean Ultimate Magus would advance your beguiler caster levels twice per level.


I think you mean Arcane Preparation there, which is normally used as one of the possible ways around the increased cast-time on metamagics.

Edit: Bah, even when you expect the ninjas they still sneak past.

Chrono22
2009-11-29, 12:37 AM
Still, would it work?

CockroachTeaParty
2009-11-29, 12:37 AM
I played through the Red Hand of Doom campaign module as a warmage 1 / wizard (abjurer) 4 / Ultimate Magus 7 (or was it 8?)...

It's a very fun class. I highly recommend it. The metamagic flexibility and dual casting progression make for a flexible caster with a surprising amount of staying power (I survived the Battle of Brindol with a few spells to spare!).

I'd encourage the Practiced Spellcaster method of gaining entry, and focusing on the wizard side of things, but I suppose a sorcerer-focused Ultimate Magus would be fun too. Go nuts!

Gorgondantess
2009-11-29, 12:40 AM
Bah. All of you kids and your optimization tricks... when I play ultimate magus, I do it by the books dagnabit! Even power in sorceror and wizard, and I enjoyed it!
In all seriousness, though- if you want power, go wizard/beguiler with practiced spellcaster shenanigans. If you want the flavor of an 'ultimate magus'- one who practices both spontaneous and prepared casting- the sorceror 2/wizard 3 can make a fun, interesting tier 3-ish class, and you can pull off all sorts of fun metamagic and CL tricks with it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-11-29, 01:02 AM
You go Illumian with the Krau sigil, start out Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM in that order. Use flaws so you'll have enough feats. Take Able Learner and you get all those nice Beguiler skills for your whole career.

Get Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, which will allow you to spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one higher level, including any Wizard spells you know. At Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1 you'll be able to spontaneously cast any 2nd level spell you know. This includes any Wizard spells that you've read and made the Spellcraft check to understand, which then gives you access to the entire 2nd level Beguiler spell list. It's actually further ahead than any single-classed caster besides a Kobold Sorcerer, which has more raw power but far less versatility.

You can add your own bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order. For example, you add Practiced Spellcaster and Krau to boost your caster levels equal to your character level, then add Arcane Spell Power from UM to further increase it.

Take Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler to add 10/10 UM spellcasting to Wizard, and your 3rd level feat can be any metamagic feat so you qualify for UM. Once you hit UM 5 you'll finally get 2nd level Beguiler spell slots, which you can spend two at a time on to cast any 3rd level Beguiler spell or any 3rd level Wizard spell you've learned. At UM 8 you'll get 3rd level Beguiler spell slots, which can be spent two at a time on any 4th level spell you know. You'll finally have 4th level Beguiler spell slots at UM 10, or character level 15, so you can spend those to Quicken/Twin your Wizard spells or double-up to cast 5th level spells.

At UM 4 (character level 9) you can use Augmented Casting on 2nd level spells, so for example you can spend two 1st level Beguiler spell slots to cast any 2nd level spell you know, and use a Wizard spell slot (1st-4th) to apply a metamagic feat you know to it. Your caster level at this point will be 11 due to Arcane Spell Power.

At character level 15 you'll be only one level behind on your Wizard spellcasting, and have 8th level Beguiler spellcasting ability, both at caster level 18 (or 19 with Enhanced Power Sigils). You'll be able to read and make the Spellcraft check to understand the entire Wizard spell list of 0-5th level, and spontaneously cast them as needed with your Beguiler spell slots without ever scribing them into your spellbook. This can even be done for free with a little bit of RP and a Beguiler class skill check. (Go to an organization that charges the standard 50g/spell level, read a spell, make the spellcraft check, but don't scribe it: "I don't get this one, the notes aren't clear enough; you don't expect me to pay for this, do you?") You can apply any metamagic feat you know of up to +4 level to a Wizard spell of up to 5th level as you cast it, just by spending a Beguiler spell slot. You'll be able to have choice Beguiler class skills at max ranks at no additional cost, and you should be able to have plenty considering you'll be SAD for Int.