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Arakune
2009-11-29, 11:58 AM
Wizard of the Coast Intended classes challenge!

Version 1.0

The challenge consists on taking the intended role of the core classes and run through the Test of Spite dungeon. We all know magic is king in core, that non-casting classes doesn't fare that well against full casters, that battlefiled control and save or die/lose are much better than blasting and the cleric is anything but a healbot, and thanks to the charops we all know how out of combat healing is cheap and much more effective.

However, how the "proper" play from the original classes will go against a bigger, meaner, challenge? Do they fail horribly? Dies horribly? Win? Win with ease? With this challenge we plan to know.

Roles:

Fighter Mc. Fighter, try to act as a meat shield for the casters and defeat the enemies with steel.

Thief Sir Rogue, the skill monkey. All sneaky, does a lot of things and hates combat, unless he is with his buddy Fighter Mc. Fighter.

Cleric Heal'a Lot, the healer of the group. Will always try to heal the party during the fights if things goes bad, isn't exactly incompetent in combat but spends more of his time buffing Fighter Mc. Fighter and Thief Sir Rogue ratter than joining the fight himself. In fact, will avoid entering in combat if possible.

Wizard Fiery Blasty, the wizard of the group. Uses his arcane might to set thing on [energy type], fun for all the family. Ocasionaly will use a more subtle aproach to problems or will buff the party members, and when he runs out of spells his trusty dagger or crossbow will save the day. Like to spend his time with his familiar, always having one.

Fifth Personality, the fifth weel. It's not like we need him for anything, or there is an extra role that must be filled, but five is a neat number.

Dee Emm, the omnipresent and omniscient. The guy that will run the game.

In no way you need to only use the mentioned classes but all the roles must be filled and hibrid classes, like ranger or bard, must have a primary role they need to do or must fall as the Fifth Personality.


Rules:

Books: Player Handbook, Dungeon Master Guide, Monster Manual.
Test of Spite ruleset (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124216).

Participants:

Fighter Mc. Fighter: Fighter McFighter (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=170070), Amphetryon
Thief Sir Rogue: Lydda the Halfling Rogue. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169915), Stiggy (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169946)
Cleric Heal'a Lot: Jozan the generic Cleric of Pelor (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169938),
Wizard Fiery Blasty: Wizard McMage (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=170407),
Fifth Personality: lvl 1 sharnian, bardy McHelpful (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169923)

Dee Emm: Sallera

IC thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133816)

OOC thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133815)


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I call dibs on the Fighter Mc. Fighter. :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2009-11-29, 11:59 AM
Dibs on evocation specialist.

Blasting, followed by more blasting!

Amphetryon
2009-11-29, 12:09 PM
Ranger McRanger just needs equipping.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-11-29, 12:15 PM
I've always wanted to play a healbot cleric.

lord_khaine
2009-11-29, 12:17 PM
But where does the ranger fit into the typical party? he clearly isnt a skillmonkey, at least not for running around underground, and he isnt a fighter either.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-29, 12:17 PM
This is a brilliant idea, btw. Adding core makes it extra challenging. =)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-29, 12:17 PM
Why Core? It seems like since you're facing massively OP channges, you should be allowed to go with the full suite of abilities necessary to make a decent blaster, such as Energy Substitution.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-29, 12:21 PM
Oh, it'd definitely increase the odds of survival. I think the idea is to evaluate roughly how well the original concept of the party stands up to optimized, creative builds.

Core only keeps me from using foc specialist and some nifty feats I enjoy, but core only does make the challenge quite interesting, and I see the reason behind it.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 12:26 PM
But where does the ranger fit into the typical party? he clearly isnt a skillmonkey, at least not for running around underground, and he isnt a fighter either.

Ranger, Pally, and Bard are 1/2 classes (they have 1/2 aspect of another class: Ranger is Skill Monkey/Warrior with dash of druid as they have animal companion; Bard is Rogue/Sorceror with a dash of cleric as they can cast CLW; and Pally is warrior with dash of cleric).
They should count as either role in this challenge I propose.

UglyPanda
2009-11-29, 12:40 PM
What do you mean by "intended"?

Does healbot mean to prepare all slots with healing spells? Or does it mean no Righteous Might and the like?

You need to clearly define the rules.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-29, 12:52 PM
Yeah, that's probably true.

I see the blaster as specializing in evocation, the traditional blasty school, and dumping two non-blaster schools. I would carry some non-blasting spells, though, as even in core, a lot of non-blasting options exists, so clearly, it was expected that they would be used at least occasionally.

I'd probably take very little divination, though, as it appears assumed that divination is the weakest school.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-11-29, 12:57 PM
Why Core? It seems like since you're facing massively OP channges, you should be allowed to go with the full suite of abilities necessary to make a decent blaster, such as Energy Substitution.
But the original play tests were with core only, at least I assume they were, if we want to recreate them(done right?) then it would make sense to do core only.



They should count as either role in this challenge I propose.
I disagree, they should either count as fifth wheel, or they shouldn't be there at all.

Arakune
2009-11-29, 02:06 PM
Why Core? It seems like since you're facing massively OP channges, you should be allowed to go with the full suite of abilities necessary to make a decent blaster, such as Energy Substitution.

Core only to make things more chalenging, and to see how the "original" party can go against more challenging stuff.

I will edit the first post to make things more clear. Thanks for the feed back for now.

Amphetryon
2009-11-29, 02:30 PM
But where does the ranger fit into the typical party? he clearly isnt a skillmonkey, at least not for running around underground, and he isnt a fighter either.
Without pigeon-holing others who might want to build a Ranger, my build is filling the Fighter's typical role in combat, along with typically Ranger-based recon abilities.

Some word from the OP or designated DM on the role and appropriateness of Rangers and other classes aside from Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard might be beneficial for all interested parties.

Zeta Kai
2009-11-29, 02:41 PM
What do you mean by "intended"?

Does healbot mean to prepare all slots with healing spells? Or does it mean no Righteous Might and the like?

You need to clearly define the rules.

The original design team for 3rd Edition created the game with a certain default party in mind. They, & later their playtesters, ran the game with the assumption that each class would fulfill a ceertain party role, & that no other role was evident for that class. To whit:

Fighter: sword & board, taking Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc.
Rogue: skillmonkey, using skills to overcome challenges
Cleric: healbot, spamming curative spells inside & outside of combat
Wizard: blaster, relying on evocation spells to deal direct damage

The problem with these assumptions is that they are sub-optimal choices, based on the design team's own rules. Wizards are much more effective using battlefield control tactics to shut down encounters in 1 or 2 rounds. Clerics are much more effective self-buffing & wading into combat, then healing after the fight ends. Rogues are out-shined by Wizards who have spells that auto-succeed at skill checks. And poor Fighters can't do anything without investing three feats, get out-shined by everyone dealing more direct damage, & none of that matters when the Wizard ended the encounter last round with a 2nd-level spell.

The game designers made the above assumptions, the playtesters evaluated the game based off those same assumptions, & the editors tweaked the game's balance according to feedback derived from those same assumptions. That, in a nutshell, is the primary reason that class balance in 3E is borked. From a very narrow perspective, the 4-class-party works as intended. But looked at any other way, the imbalance is put into glaring perspective.

The point of this challenge is to demonstrate what the original game was designed to be. Before splatbooks. Before optimization. Before the basic assumptions were shown to be wildly flawed. That's the point.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-11-29, 03:02 PM
ooh! Ooh! I want Fifth-wheel bard

Tyndmyr
2009-11-29, 03:04 PM
I could see a legitimate argument for a six character party with a bard and a ranger. Example parties aren't always 4 players, and there certainly are bard/ranger stereotypes to play to.

Arakune
2009-11-29, 03:10 PM
I could see a legitimate argument for a six character party with a bard and a ranger. Example parties aren't always 4 players, and there certainly are bard/ranger stereotypes to play to.

Maybe, but it's difficult to find seven people (six players + dm) to play the game outside the internet. At least not six guys that want to play with you that aren't in another group, if they play.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-29, 03:57 PM
Dibs on evocation specialist.

Blasting, followed by more blasting!

It's been done.

Arakune
2009-11-30, 08:45 AM
We still have interest? Anyone wants to DM?

ericgrau
2009-11-30, 09:00 AM
I think these are stereotypes invented by these and other similar boards. For one there are no end of strategy guides on the WotC website advocating the use of non-blasty spells for wizards, with little if anything on blasting. Given the matching examples I think LogicNinja even stole some of this info (and yes it predates him).

Starbuck_II
2009-11-30, 09:10 AM
I think these are stereotypes invented by these and other similar boards. For one there are no end of strategy guides on the WotC website advocating the use of non-blasty spells for wizards, with little if anything on blasting. Given the matching examples I think LogicNinja even stole some of this info (and yes it predates him).

Have you read Complete Mage archetypes?

ericgrau
2009-11-30, 09:14 AM
No but by the way you say it it sounds like it's not the kind of book I'd want to have.

The guides were very early, soon after the release of 3e and 3.5e. Around the time of 4e and a year or two before 4e's release I think the WotC staff started joining in on the common forum opinions, often to bash 3e. Also by that time most of the staff who worked on 3e/3.5e was no longer working for WotC (most left, some fired IIRC). One and only one such guy remained after the release of 4e, and then not too long after its release he was laid off.

Arakune
2009-11-30, 09:17 AM
I think these are stereotypes invented by these and other similar boards. For one there are no end of strategy guides on the WotC website advocating the use of non-blasty spells for wizards, with little if anything on blasting. Given the matching examples I think LogicNinja even stole some of this info (and yes it predates him).

Let's not discuss the existence or not of the archetypes/stereotypes. For the purpose of this exercise, let's pretended they are true. We can discuss about it in a different topic.

On a side note, are you interested?

ericgrau
2009-11-30, 09:21 AM
Fair enough. I'd be tempted to take an evoker but Tyndmyr already grabbed it. And I'm not sure how much free time I have nor am I all that familiar with the test of spite dungeon. So I wouldn't know what to expect. My next choice would be fighter, which is also taken. However I see both the rogue skillmonkey McHatesCombat and the 5th wheel are open. Playing the rogue would be interesting. Now I just need to find the test of spite thread and decide whether or not I have time.

Arakune
2009-11-30, 09:29 AM
Fair enough. I'd be tempted to take an evoker but Tyndmyr already grabbed it. And I'm not sure how much free time I have nor am I all that familiar with the test of spite dungeon. So I wouldn't know what to expect. My next choice would be fighter, which is also taken. However I see both the rogue skillmonkey McHatesCombat and the 5th wheel are open. Playing the rogue would be interesting. Now I just need to find the test of spite thread and decide whether or not I have time.

In theory, you're not supposed to know exactly what is coming at you.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-11-30, 12:41 PM
I'm also still interested to play a healbot cleric, I think it should be possible to find a DM for this, have you tried the ToS thread yet?

Edit: I have been following the Journal of Jaya Ballard, but the dungeon won't be exactly the same as that one will it?

Arakune
2009-11-30, 01:39 PM
I'm also still interested to play a healbot cleric, I think it should be possible to find a DM for this, have you tried the ToS thread yet?

Edit: I have been following the Journal of Jaya Ballard, but the dungeon won't be exactly the same as that one will it?

Probably not. They have more than one dungeon setting, and some of the surprises (random D100 rolling) is an original from Saph.

Superglucose
2009-11-30, 02:16 PM
Rogue it is then!

Flickerdart
2009-11-30, 02:34 PM
Are we still optimizing the roles? So, is our blaster going to use Metamagic wisely instead of just higher level spells and our Fighter Ubercharge into combat, our Rogue become a UMD whiz? Or do they have to literally be the stereotypical tank Fighter and swordy Rogue?

Arakune
2009-11-30, 02:54 PM
Are we still optimizing the roles? So, is our blaster going to use Metamagic wisely instead of just higher level spells and our Fighter Ubercharge into combat, our Rogue become a UMD whiz? Or do they have to literally be the stereotypical tank Fighter and swordy Rogue?

The plan was to be the most stereotypical possible. The ocasional optimization should be the exception, or at least not all that common.

The next challenge, if this one proves popular, is to make the charactes the least optimizable possible (taking such gens as stealty or lightning reflexes).

sonofzeal
2009-11-30, 02:56 PM
The plan was to be the most stereotypical possible.
I don't think any of those are un-stereotyped. In 3.0, I believe UMD was a Rogue-only skill, so any classic Rogue should make good use of it. Also, I believe Metamagic + Fireball (or Lightning Bolt) was the intended default combat style of Wizards.

Superglucose
2009-11-30, 03:03 PM
Lydda the Halfling Rogue (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169915).

I mildly did the best I could with the tools available :P

EDIT: Yes, I have UMD, but as I read it rogues aren't supposed to invest in scrolls. The reason they have UMD is for when the wizard dies and you just have to have that fireball you can use the wand he was using.

Yes, I recognize that's sub op.

sonofzeal
2009-11-30, 03:06 PM
Lydda the Halfling Rogue (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169915).

I mildly did the best I could with the tools available :P

EDIT: Yes, I have UMD, but as I read it rogues aren't supposed to invest in scrolls. The reason they have UMD is for when the wizard dies and you just have to have that fireball you can use the wand he was using.

Yes, I recognize that's sub op.
It.... looks blank to me.

Superglucose
2009-11-30, 03:09 PM
*screams in rage*

Forgot to hit the save button. BRB!

(thank god for cookies)

Fixed.

*mutters*

Arakune
2009-11-30, 03:20 PM
I guess a spiked chain specialist is too optimized for this task?

----

No tumble Superglucose?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-30, 03:23 PM
I guess the real question is are you playing what we think they did, or are you playing the archetypes optimized as far as they can be in Core?

Arakune
2009-11-30, 03:25 PM
I guess the real question is are you playing what we think they did, or are you playing the archetypes optimized as far as they can be in Core?

Good point. I shall downgrade my fighter now....


The sad part is that my fighter will run out of good feats after a while ><

TheThan
2009-11-30, 03:33 PM
Think Iíll sign up for the fifth wheel spot. Probably a bard. lets see what I can come up with.

Superglucose
2009-11-30, 03:39 PM
I guess a spiked chain specialist is too optimized for this task?

----

No tumble Superglucose?
There may be some edits before go time XD

Arakune
2009-11-30, 04:43 PM
If you doesn't take a reach weapon and use the combat expertize->improved trip, what other good options mr mcfighter can have?

sonofzeal
2009-11-30, 04:45 PM
If you doesn't take a reach weapon and use the combat expertize->improved trip, what other good options mr mcfighter can have?
Weapon Focus, of course! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Arakune
2009-11-30, 04:48 PM
Weapon Focus, of course! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Already have. In fact, WITH weapon focus, I can have all the expertize and spiked chain fun. Anything else for a meele char?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-30, 04:49 PM
Bull Rush, of course. And Improved Sunder.

Arakune
2009-11-30, 04:50 PM
Bull Rush, of course. And Improved Sunder.

You know what? I'm going with that. Wizards made those feats, they must have used it at some point.

sonofzeal
2009-11-30, 04:53 PM
Do you have Iron Will and Improved Initiative? Both are good fillers for Fighters.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-30, 04:58 PM
You know what? I'm going with that. Wizards made those feats, they must have used it at some point.

Well, Bull Rush does have a few applications if there's useful terrain around (or a Sphere of Annihilation) and I suppose breaking things does come in handy every now and then...

ericgrau
2009-11-30, 05:31 PM
Found a test of spite thread. Sounds cool. I'm in.

I wasn't sure what the stereotype of a rogue is supposed to be so I went with the OP's interpretation, which should be fun. Will post my build as soon as it's ready. Yeah, I know we already got a rogue posted, so I'll be backup rogue or maybe the 5th wheel, if one of those guys don't show.

One question. Can I optimize if it's working towards the "intended class" goals. i.e., in this case can I grab skill boosting items?

TheThan
2009-11-30, 05:46 PM
ok introducing bardy McHelpful (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169923) the (slightly) powergamed 5th wheel of the group!

skills and mundane gear aren't done yet.
I bought off my +1 LA just for kicks, don't mind being down a level, as I should catch up quickly. I wasn't sure on gear, so i went with standard for 12th level character (22K). if i should get more cash, let me know.

Arakune
2009-11-30, 06:10 PM
ok introducing bardy McHelpful (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169923) the (slightly) powergamed 5th wheel of the group!

skills and mundane gear aren't done yet.
I bought off my +1 LA just for kicks, don't mind being down a level, as I should catch up quickly. I wasn't sure on gear, so i went with standard for 12th level character (22K). if i should get more cash, let me know.

Is LA buy off core? Also, I don't know if rapid metamagic is core too.

You get as much cash as designed in the Test of Spite ruleset. It's in the first page, so check it out :smallbiggrin:

TheThan
2009-11-30, 06:12 PM
Is LA buy off core? Also, I don't know if rapid metamagic is core too.

wait, we're restricted to core? thought we were using the test of spite rules, crap guess i'm going to have to make some changes.

Arakune
2009-11-30, 06:24 PM
Found a test of spite thread. Sounds cool. I'm in.

I wasn't sure what the stereotype of a rogue is supposed to be so I went with the OP's interpretation, which should be fun. Will post my build as soon as it's ready. Yeah, I know we already got a rogue posted, so I'll be backup rogue or maybe the 5th wheel, if one of those guys don't show.

One question. Can I optimize if it's working towards the "intended class" goals. i.e., in this case can I grab skill boosting items?

Well, you are still subject to the normal budged for an 13th level character. Just try to get items with an actuall entry. Even if rings of skill +30 are avaiable pre-epic, try to get one that actually exist in the DMG. I wanted to take a full plate celestial armor, but since it is only maybe raw legal, I passed it.

Also, depends how the dm will rule custom items, if anything.

ericgrau
2009-11-30, 06:46 PM
I wouldn't dream of such a thing, especially for a challenge like this. I'm using only listed skill boosting items, and lots of them :smallbiggrin:... and intentionally sucking at fighting. I think I'll add a couple utility things and let him at least be good for 1 sneak attack upon breaking stealth.

Superglucose
2009-11-30, 06:53 PM
I wouldn't dream of such a thing, especially for a challenge like this. I'm using only listed skill boosting items, and lots of them :smallbiggrin:... and intentionally sucking at fighting. I think I'll add a couple utility things and let him at least be good for 1 sneak attack upon breaking stealth.

Ah see I went a different route. I went for moderate combat (Ring of Invisibility for the chance at more sneak attacks, super high init mod, etc.) and chose to rely on my skills for utility.

ericgrau
2009-11-30, 08:02 PM
Oh, well he has invisibility too via a wand.

I'm finishing up Stiggy (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169946) the halfling rogue now.

Physical description: Stiggy stands at a hair over 3 feet tall, fidgeting in a crazy manner that lets you trust him only because he doesn't seem like a threat. He seems totally unprepared for adventuring: He wears glasses and has no visible weapons or armor, not even a backpack or bags. Only a buckler, cloak and some filled pockets in his unassuming clothing.

Arakune
2009-11-30, 08:20 PM
Oh, well he has invisibility too via a wand.

I'm finishing up Stiggy (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169946) the halfling rogue now.

Physical description: Stiggy stands at a hair over 3 feet tall, fidgeting in a crazy manner that lets you trust him only because he doesn't seem like a threat. He seems totally unprepared for adventuring: He wears glasses and has no visible weapons or armor, not even a backpack or bags. Only a cloak and some filled pockets in his unassuming clothing.

Um... How does he have 153 HP? With 13d6+39 you get 6+12*3,5+39 = 87 hp.
My fighter have 13d10+65 and it is 10+12*5,5+65 = 141.

Is it a magic item or something? And you still need to fill your 6th, 9th, 12th level feats.

Also, everyone seens to out defense me. The only thing my fighter have is his higher than average saves...

ericgrau
2009-11-30, 08:38 PM
Whoops, still gotta double check all my math. Also, I'm doing minor edits as we speak. Check my feats again. Good point about the AC. With all the stealth and range he has there's not much point to it.

But you have a fighter without high AC in this challenge? Tisk tisk.

Arakune
2009-11-30, 08:55 PM
Whoops, still gotta double check all my math. Also, I'm doing minor edits as we speak. Check my feats again. Good point about the AC. With all the stealth and range he has there's not much point to it.

But you have a fighter without high AC in this challenge? Tisk tisk.

Well, I was trying for either high AC or high HP. Maybe I will take some invisibility potions or something later, or just plain hit things to death.

Eldariel
2009-11-30, 09:50 PM
1) Shouldn't the Rogue have 2 more Skill Masteries? 3+Int = 5; you've only got 3. Also, Lens of Detection seem like a nice piece of gear considering the poor Search-check.

2) Shouldn't the Fighter's Sword have threat range of 17-20? Imp. Critical on a 19-20 doubles it, so yeah.

3) I'd have thought the S&B Fighter was pretty integral for this? I mean, it's one of the big assumptions WoTC made that Fighters would stick to the traditional 1-2.

4) Shouldn't the Fighter be a Dwarf? Seems to me that character would be better in just about every way except Cha-wise as a Dwarf, given their movement ability in heavier armor; you lose out on Great Cleave or Improved Sunder something and gain +2 Con, +2 to all saves, Darkvision and tonnes of random useful abilities.

5) Whatever happened to the 12-level ability boost for the Fighter? 16/10/16/10/10/10 is a 28pb, and I see two level-ups in Str but what of the last one? Cramming 2 points into Dex (from e.g. Con) seems pretty solid for maxing out the AC; with S&B he could easily reach 30-32 or so. Heck, dumping Cha, he could actually go 14 Dex and pick up Dodge.

Arakune
2009-11-30, 10:07 PM
2) Shouldn't the Fighter's Sword have threat range of 17-20? Imp. Critical on a 19-20 doubles it, so yeah.


Changed. Thanks for the info.



3) I'd have thought the S&B Fighter was pretty integral for this? I mean, it's one of the big assumptions WoTC made that Fighters would stick to the traditional 1-2.


To tell you the truth, I couldn't find any good feats to use with S&B. If you have some sugestions, I will take.



4) Shouldn't the Fighter be a Dwarf? Seems to me that character would be better in just about every way except Cha-wise as a Dwarf, given their movement ability in heavier armor; you lose out on Great Cleave or Improved Sunder something and gain +2 Con, +2 to all saves, Darkvision and tonnes of random useful abilities.


Um... maybe. I will look at it then later.



5) Whatever happened to the 12-level ability boost for the Fighter? 16/10/16/10/10/10 is a 28pb, and I see two level-ups in Str but what of the last one? Cramming 2 points into Dex (from e.g. Con) seems pretty solid for maxing out the AC; with S&B he could easily reach 30-32 or so. Heck, dumping Cha, he could actually go 14 Dex and pick up Dodge.

Uhm... with with full plate I will need mithral to get some use for the dex, and my budged is almost used up. Do you have some tips on equipement if I go that route?

ericgrau
2009-11-30, 10:10 PM
1) Ooh, thanks. Now I'm even more tempted to shift a couple skill points into sleight of hand if I could skill mastery it up to make DC 20 checks. Goggles of minute seeing cost half as much as lense of detection and still work on traps and secret doors. And no I'm not using two forms of magnification at once, regardless of lack of technical slot conflict.

3) Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Dodge, Improved Critical, w/e. At that point you almost have to branch out. Maybe carry a bow too. Or trip with a measly flail. Or go mounted. Or w/e other role.

5) Ya, it is too early for mithral. Try armor, shield, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, dusty rose prism ioun stone. Find the cheapest combo.

Eldariel
2009-11-30, 10:14 PM
And no I'm not using two forms of magnification at once, regardless of lack of technical slot conflict.

Psh, they're different types too. It's magic! I mean, of course Goggles first, but Lens + Goggles means you have an actual chance of not failing your Search-check horribly and getting disintegrated.

ericgrau
2009-11-30, 10:18 PM
I understand the lack of a technical problem ignoring the fluff, yet my sanity refuses to be compromised. EDIT: That and the highest search DC I found in the SRD was 33. Hmm, that puts me 1 point short if I take a 10.

Eldariel
2009-11-30, 10:20 PM
I understand the lack of a technical problem ignoring the fluff, yet my sanity refuses to be compromised.

But but...it's magic! Shouldn't that solve every fluff-problem ever especially when it is magic? I mean, a normal magnification glass surely wouldn't grant that massive bonuses so maybe it actually detects things in addition to making things easier or some such.

ericgrau
2009-11-30, 10:30 PM
Fluff on both say they help me see tiny things / details. Even assuming they're compatible I don't see the advantage of a microscope for 95% of things. Next you'll be having me duct tape swords together for a greater bonus :smallbiggrin: (Munchkin game system reference). Eh, agree to disagree.

Oh and Arakune, I just noticed something. Your attack bonus is even lower than mine. You sure you want to drop it even lower with power attack? I mean, how are you going to hit anything?

Arakune
2009-11-30, 10:56 PM
Lower? How?

You: 9 BAB +7 DEX +1 feat +1 Mw = +18
Me: 13 BAB +6 Str + 2 Feat +1 Enchantment = +22

And how are you getting weapon finese with the dagger without weapon finese?

If things continue that way, I'm bringing back the spiked chain guy. At least with him I could pretended I had some class features.

Eldariel
2009-11-30, 11:01 PM
Lower? How?

You: 9 BAB +7 DEX +1 feat +1 Mw = +18
Me: 13 BAB +6 Str + 2 Feat +1 Enchantment = +22

And how are you getting weapon finese with the dagger without weapon finese?

I'd wager that's for throwing them.

@eric: Well, I tried. It's your corpse character. :smalltongue:

ericgrau
2009-11-30, 11:11 PM
Lower? How?

You: 9 BAB +7 DEX +1 feat +1 Mw = +18
Me: 13 BAB +6 Str + 2 Feat +1 Enchantment = +22

And how are you getting weapon finese with the dagger without weapon finese?

If things continue that way, I'm bringing back the spiked chain guy. At least with him I could pretended I had some class features.

Whoops, redirect that comment to TheThan's bard.

Ya, the higher numbers on the daggers are for throwing.

I think I need to slip in sleight of hand, potions of darkvision and potions of protection from evil... by cutting other things out since I'm maxed. Then decide whether or not I want to sacrifice my will save for a better attack bonus and +1 AC. Eh, maybe tomorrow.

Eldariel
2009-11-30, 11:20 PM
Sorry Arakune, the "last post of page"-syndrome caused me to miss your reply.


To tell you the truth, I couldn't find any good feats to use with S&B. If you have some sugestions, I will take.

Honestly, your present feat structure is fine. You can use Imp. Sunder and Bull Rush on S&B just fine, and Cleave works too. I'd just pick up maybe Dodge and such; Combat Expertise would be nice but the Int isn't really doable with your stats. You just can't do too much with S&B, but as the game seems to be designed with it in mind...

EDIT: Well, there's the mounted combat-line... I'm not sure how appropriate it would be for this exercise though. Though it would definitely help with your damage output and lance can be wielded with a shield...


Uhm... with with full plate I will need mithral to get some use for the dex, and my budged is almost used up. Do you have some tips on equipement if I go that route?

Well, you get +1 Dex to a normal Full-Plate so a 12 Dex could be fully utilized and it's not the end of the world if you go 14 Dex and can't apply the +1 to your AC (it still goes to Initiative and saves).

Alternative equipment would be Mithral Full-Plate +3, Heavy Steel Shield +3, Gloves of Dex +2, giving up +1 on the Cloak of Resistance, and going down to +2 Con Amulet. That'd get you pretty much the same stats you've got now except -1 to saves and some less HP (going Dwarf, the changes would be nearly inexistent other than +1 to saves across the board and lots better Reflex of course) and would bump you up to 32 AC (11 armor, 5 shield, 3 dex, 2 deflection, 1 insight). 33 with Dodge. It definitely seems like it'd be more in spirit of this exercise.


You'd probably have to dump Cha a bit, but that's hardly a problem for a Dwarf. You're still plenty scary when you rip peoples' heads off (and have maxed out Intimidate). For the record, the 14 Dex would come from -2 Cha, -1 Str (well, actually, -1 Con and apply one more level-up to Con but yeah).

Of course, all this misses out on the unfortunate fact that you'll miss out on Boots of Speed. Which sucks royally; 40' charge range just isn't as impressive as 100', and extra attacks with bonuses To Hit and Damage are some good too.

Decoy Lockbox
2009-11-30, 11:24 PM
I can't wait to see the result of this. It'll take me back to the first days of 3.0, when I was 12 and we had no idea what we were doing when it came to optimizing. I played an elf dual-wielding paladin from level 1 to 25. Crazy as hell y'all.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-30, 11:30 PM
Fluff on both say they help me see tiny things / details. Even assuming they're compatible I don't see the advantage of a microscope for 95% of things. Next you'll be having me duct tape swords together for a greater bonus :smallbiggrin: (Munchkin game system reference). Eh, agree to disagree.Munchkin? Heck, that was homebrewed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60864) for 3.5 years ago.

Cybren
2009-11-30, 11:45 PM
A while back i had the intention to do something similar to this:
a "classic" fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue party, and then a series of "all fighter", "all mage", "all cleric", and "all rogue" parties for fun. Never got off the ground though

ericgrau
2009-11-30, 11:49 PM
Mithral + gloves of dex +2 = 14,000 gp for +2 AC. There are cheaper ways to get AC at this level. Example: Armor & shield +3, ring of protection & amulet of natural armor +2, dusty rose prism ioun stone. Total: +11 AC for 39,000 gp (32 total AC not counting haste, dodge, etc.). But if you want more than that then, ok, get mithral.

Combat expertise works well with a high AC, btw, if you're still stuck on feats. Also a pre-req for other stuff you might want anyway.

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 01:20 AM
Mithral + gloves of dex +2 = 14,000 gp for +2 AC. There are cheaper ways to get AC at this level. Example: Armor & shield +3, ring of protection & amulet of natural armor +2, dusty rose prism ioun stone. Total: +11 AC for 39,000 gp (32 total AC not counting haste, dodge, etc.). But if you want more than that then, ok, get mithral.

Mmm, if you're referring to my post, the equipment I listed contains all that (+3 shield & armor, +2 RoP, ioun stone), except Amulet of Natural Armor which conflicts with Amulet of Con. Seems like the only way to get relevantly high AC; it's annoying how much money one needs to burn on that.

Arakune
2009-12-01, 10:26 AM
Mmm, if you're referring to my post, the equipment I listed contains all that (+3 shield & armor, +2 RoP, ioun stone), except Amulet of Natural Armor which conflicts with Amulet of Con. Seems like the only way to get relevantly high AC; it's annoying how much money one needs to burn on that.

I will go with the dwarven s&b way them. For the spirit of WOTC!

sonofzeal
2009-12-01, 11:42 AM
Armor/Shield spikes of Defending are core. Dunno if that's too "non-traditional" or not, but it's a pretty straightforward trick and might boost your AC a little.

Arakune
2009-12-01, 11:45 AM
Armor/Shield spikes of Defending are core. Dunno if that's too "non-traditional" or not, but it's a pretty straightforward trick and might boost your AC a little.

Does it stack with armor and shield? It's a bit pricy since I need to get at least Armor/Shield Spikes +2 to get the benefits and it's only a +1 bonus. Better to use it for consumables.

Now we only need Tydmir, TheTan, some healbot and a kind dm for us to start.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-01, 12:24 PM
I made a start as builkding my character, the sheet is here:
Cleric (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169938)

But I have some questions about the challenge, right now I'm focussed on turning and healing and buffing*, however I feel that being a decent combatant isn't against the clerics focus, he just shouldn't be better then a fighter.

I also haven't made a spell list yet and I have some gold left, if anyhow has a suggestion, I'd be glad to hear them.



* spending all your spells on healing is near impossible, I personally feel that both smiting and buffing are part of a stereotypical cleric build, just not it's focus.

Arakune
2009-12-01, 12:58 PM
I made a start as builkding my character, the sheet is here:
Cleric (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169938)

But I have some questions about the challenge, right now I'm focussed on turning and healing and buffing*, however I feel that being a decent combatant isn't against the clerics focus, he just shouldn't be better then a fighter.

I also haven't made a spell list yet and I have some gold left, if anyhow has a suggestion, I'd be glad to hear them.

* spending all your spells on healing is near impossible, I personally feel that both smiting and buffing are part of a stereotypical cleric build, just not it's focus.

Turning and buffing is fine, but aparently a cleric wasn't supposed to wander around hitting things all the time. It isn't all that difficult to make a better, or at least as good as, combatant that the fighter.

Fenix, how did you char got those stats?

TheThan
2009-12-01, 01:01 PM
Well I went from a decked out magic focused bard to a great sword wielding badass bard to rapier wielding twit. Iím so going to be the first one to die. Realized I wasnít playing the stereotypical bard, so I had to make a few changes. Also I need to know if LA buyoff is considered core for this game. Its in the SRD but not the DMG, MM or PHB. Which leads me to wonder. It wonít change my build that much; itíll just cost me more XP to hit level 13.

Arakune
2009-12-01, 01:04 PM
Well I went from a decked out magic focused bard to a great sword wielding badass bard to rapier wielding twit. Iím so going to be the first one to die. Realized I wasnít playing the stereotypical bard, so I had to make a few changes. Also I need to know if LA buyoff is considered core for this game. Its in the SRD but not the DMG, MM or PHB. Which leads me to wonder. It wonít change my build that much; itíll just cost me more XP to hit level 13.

Well, I don't think it will hurt much to get LA buyoff then if it's in the SRD. If nobody have a problem with it, then that's fine.

Ozymandias9
2009-12-01, 01:54 PM
I made a start as builkding my character, the sheet is here:
Cleric (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=169938)

But I have some questions about the challenge, right now I'm focussed on turning and healing and buffing*, however I feel that being a decent combatant isn't against the clerics focus, he just shouldn't be better then a fighter.

I also haven't made a spell list yet and I have some gold left, if anyhow has a suggestion, I'd be glad to hear them.



* spending all your spells on healing is near impossible, I personally feel that both smiting and buffing are part of a stereotypical cleric build, just not it's focus.

I agree that a healbot does occasionally do something other than heal.

Obviously, you're focusing first on healing. After that, I would think that a good place to start would be to look at the 2nd core spell list and focus on spells that have a direct equivalent to one of those. This obviously doesn't hold after 7th level spells, bit it's something.

2nd edition core cleric spells
1st level
Bless/Curse
Command
Create/Destroy Water
Cure/Cause LW
Detect G/E
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Detect Snares/Pits
Endure Heat/Cold
Invisibility to Undead
Light/Darkness
Magical Stone
Protection from Evil/Good
Purify/Putrefy Food/Drink
Cause/Remove Fear
Sanctuary
2nd level
Aid
Augury
Chant
Detect Charm/Undetectable Charm
Dust Devil
Enthrall
Find Traps
Fire Trap
Flame Blade
Heat/Chill Metal
Hold Person
Know/Undetectable Alignment
Produce Flame
Resist Fire/Cold
Silence 15' Radius
Slow Poison
Spiritual Hammer
Withdraw
Wyvern Watch
3rd level
Animate Dead
Continual Light/Darkness
Create Food/Water
Cure/Cause Blindness/Deafness
Cure/Cause Disease
Dispel Magic
Feign Death
Glyph of Warding
Locate Object
Magical Vestment
Negative Plane Protection
Prayer
Remove/Bestow Curse
Remove Paralysis
Speak with dead
Starshine
4th level
Abjure
Cloak of Bravery/Fear
Cause/Cure SW
Detect/Undetectable Lie
Divination
Free Action
Imbue w/ Spell Ability
Poison/Neutralize Poison
Protection from Good/Evil, 10' Radius
Reflecting Pool
Spell Immunity
Tongues/Rev
5th Level
Atonement
Commune
Cure/Cause CW
Dispel Good/Evil
Flame Strike
Insect Plague
Magic Font
Plane Shift
Quest
Raise Dead/Slay Living
True Seeing
6th Level
Aerial Servant
Animate Object
Blade Barrier
Conjure Animals
Find/Lose the Path
Forbiddance
Heal/Harm
Heroes' Feast
Speak with Monsters
Word of Recall
7th Level
Astral Spell
Confuse
Exaction
Gate
Holy Word
Miracle
Regenerate/Wither
Reincarnate
Restoration/Energy Drain
Resurrection/Destruction
Succor
Sunray
Symbol

You'll note that there isn't a huge degree of difference between this and the 3.5 Spell list. What you're really missing are spells that expand your melee capacity, direct damage spells, and summon monster spells. Essentially, the limiting factor is that if you do go on the offensive, you're more or less limited to a single target.

sonofzeal
2009-12-01, 02:01 PM
Does it stack with armor and shield? It's a bit pricy since I need to get at least Armor/Shield Spikes +2 to get the benefits and it's only a +1 bonus. Better to use it for consumables.
It explicitly stacks. And yes, you're paying 8000 for a +1, but that's better than going from +4 to +5 on armor, or from +2 to +3 on Ring of Protection / Amulet of Natural Armor. It looks like you're not quite at that point yet, but it's worth remembering.

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 02:20 PM
I will go with the dwarven s&b way them. For the spirit of WOTC!

Hm, actually, since you only have a +2 Amulet of Con, get it as an Ioun Stone instead and use an Amulet of Natural Armor instead. This requires you to free up 3000 somehow but meh, toss out one Heward's Handy Haversack or something (with your Str, that should hardly be a problem anyways) for that.

ericgrau
2009-12-01, 02:41 PM
Arakune / Fighter: Defending shield spikes sound a bit cheesy, especially for this challenge.

Fenix / Cleric:Try phylactery of faithfulness for a +3 to turning checks (turning checks are cha checks). Since you're using the weight column to add up the cost of your gear, you may notice that there's a row on the bottom telling you the total in thousands of gp. That'll save you a lot of math. Try buff, anti-undead, dispel, other abjuration and fix-it spells/scrolls. Like I said to the bard, buff out your attack bonus or skip power attack. If you can afford it an ok strength and a little self buffing is okay w/o breaking "intended class". As long as the fighter and rogue get it first :smallbiggrin:. Oh, and nice domain choices.

Superglucose
2009-12-01, 03:04 PM
Re: Defending:

"A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the swordís enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weaponís enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn. "

A +1 Defending Armor Spike would give you +1 to AC, not +5.

Also, technically by RAW it only applies to swords :smallwink:

Starbuck_II
2009-12-01, 03:32 PM
Re: Defending:

"A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the swordís enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weaponís enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn. "

A +1 Defending Armor Spike would give you +1 to AC, not +5.

Also, technically by RAW it only applies to swords :smallwink:

No, if you weild 5 defending weapons: do they stack? Answer by RAW is yes (although how do you weild 5 swords?). But either way, this is not that stereotype like for a party.

Superglucose
2009-12-01, 05:51 PM
Well all we need now is a DM

ericgrau
2009-12-01, 05:57 PM
Oh snap Arakune is the OP, which means he's a fighter and not DM. Ya, A DM would be nice.

And where's Tyndmar's evoker? I'm tempted to take the spot now, especially if I don't get rogue. Aww, but I did love Stiggy.

Sallera
2009-12-01, 06:21 PM
I wouldn't mind DMing this. I haven't been paying attention to the Test of Spite since my dungeon run died off a while back, so I don't know how much of the intended dungeon is established besides the setting; is there a set of notes, map, or somesuch?

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-01, 06:49 PM
Turning and buffing is fine, but aparently a cleric wasn't supposed to wander around hitting things all the time. It isn't all that difficult to make a better, or at least as good as, combatant that the fighter.

Fenix, how did you char got those stats?

well, armour profinciency suggests at least the posibilitie to be on the front lines, together with buff spells, hitting something once in a while wouldn't be rare for someone like that.

about my stats, I might have miscalculated as invisible castle was down, but the idea was to get 15 wis and boost it with 3 extra points, the modified versions come from magic items.



Fenix / Cleric:Try phylactery of faithfulness for a +3 to turning checks (turning checks are cha checks). Since you're using the weight column to add up the cost of your gear, you may notice that there's a row on the bottom telling you the total in thousands of gp. That'll save you a lot of math. Try buff, anti-undead, dispel, other abjuration and fix-it spells/scrolls. Like I said to the bard, buff out your attack bonus or skip power attack. If you can afford it an ok strength and a little self buffing is okay w/o breaking "intended class". As long as the fighter and rogue get it first :smallbiggrin:. Oh, and nice domain choices.
I think you mean the Phylactery of Undead Turning, which I already have, about the rest thanks for the tips, any ideas on what to replace the power attack with(it was place holding really).

Arakune
2009-12-01, 06:55 PM
I wouldn't mind DMing this. I haven't been paying attention to the Test of Spite since my dungeon run died off a while back, so I don't know how much of the intended dungeon is established besides the setting; is there a set of notes, map, or somesuch?

Well, if you plan to DM you need to run it from the Test of Spite dungeon, since it was desgined to test effectives of classes and test some arguments in the line of "full caster is too broken, monks don't suck, fighters don't suck", etc. I will ask doc roc for one.

Sallera
2009-12-01, 07:01 PM
Aye, I've been following the other ToS dungeon, I just wasn't sure how much of the structure was already established. So in that case, looks like we're just waiting on Tyndmyr for our blaster?

Arakune
2009-12-01, 07:08 PM
Aye, I've been following the other ToS dungeon, I just wasn't sure how much of the structure was already established. So in that case, looks like we're just waiting on Tyndmyr for our blaster?

Aparently only the monkening are running with a complete dungeon. If you want to run that one, I can contact Saph or Jake for details.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-01, 07:12 PM
Aye, I've been following the other ToS dungeon, I just wasn't sure how much of the structure was already established. So in that case, looks like we're just waiting on Tyndmyr for our blaster?

well and me, my build isn't finished yet.


Custom item creation is not permitted except as per the bonus stacking\slot stacking rules in the MiC. This includes traps.
does this go for us as well? I think I'd like to tag a +2 str/con to my gloves/cloak or something.

Sallera
2009-12-01, 07:13 PM
Sure, that'll work. That being the dungeon, rather. I'm sure there'll be room to avoid having it look too similar, and, well, with the party being what it is, avoiding OOC knowledge use shouldn't be too hard.

Arakune
2009-12-01, 07:16 PM
does this go for us as well? I think I'd like to tag a +2 str/con to my gloves/cloak or something.

Yes. Well, now you need to ask the DM but I ask you to not do it.

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 07:21 PM
does this go for us as well? I think I'd like to tag a +2 str/con to my gloves/cloak or something.

On +2 level, you can just get Ioun Stones.

ericgrau
2009-12-01, 08:10 PM
I think you mean the Phylactery of Undead Turning, which I already have, about the rest thanks for the tips, any ideas on what to replace the power attack with(it was place holding really).

Editing fail. I meant to delete the phylactery which you already have and leave only circlet of persuasion for +3 to turning checks (which are cha checks). The phylactery of undead turning increases your effective class level by 4 for the purpose of turning, which is different.

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 11:35 PM
Arakune: I still suggest you make the following adjustments for your character:

1) Fix his Con; as a Dwarf, you should have base Con of 18, not 16.
2) Instead of Amulet of Health, get Pink Rhomboid Ioun Stone (the +2 Con one) and Amulet of Natural Armor. This only costs 3000 more than your present equipment. Dropping down to Ring of Pro +1 would easily cover you (leaving you with 3000 spare to use).
3) I'd replace Great Cleave (rarely usable) with Dodge (probably slightly more usable).
4) I'd consider cutting down on your more expensive potion supply and try to reintroduce your Holy weapon (now that you're one-handed, weapon enhancement is more important than ever) and Boots of Speed. Boots of Speed are 12k and the weapon would be 9k extra. You could e.g. drop Mithril + Gloves of Dex, and Oils of Greater Magic Weapon and one excess Haversack.

That'd get you to 14000gp+6000gp+2000gp = enough. Since you've already got 3000gp rolling from the Ring of Protection tradedown , you could keep one of the Oils too. This'd drop your AC to 30 but would probably be slightly stronger giving you an extra attack and AC + some nice damage (thanks to having an automatic access to Haste being pretty awesome).

Arakune
2009-12-01, 11:42 PM
Arakune: I still suggest you make the following adjustments for your character:

1) Fix his Con; as a Dwarf, you should have base Con of 18, not 16.
2) Instead of Amulet of Health, get Pink Rhomboid Ioun Stone (the +2 Con one) and Amulet of Natural Armor. This only costs 3000 more than your present equipment. Dropping down to Ring of Pro +1 would easily cover you (leaving you with 3000 spare to use).
3) I'd replace Great Cleave (rarely usable) with Dodge (probably slightly more usable).
4) I'd consider cutting down on your more expensive potion supply and try to reintroduce your Holy weapon (now that you're one-handed, weapon enhancement is more important than ever) and Boots of Speed. Boots of Speed are 12k and the weapon would be 9k extra. You could e.g. drop Mithril + Gloves of Dex, and Oils of Greater Magic Weapon and one excess Haversack.

That'd get you to 14000gp+6000gp+2000gp = enough. Since you've already got 3000gp rolling from the Ring of Protection tradedown , you could keep one of the Oils too. This'd drop your AC to 30 but would probably be slightly stronger giving you an extra attack and AC + some nice damage (thanks to having an automatic access to Haste being pretty awesome).

Ugh, the build keeps changing and changing... I will see it all later. Thanks for the help.

ericgrau
2009-12-01, 11:57 PM
I added up only a 24 PB, counting the +3 from levels, when you get 28. As a fighter you should have both str and con, so you're good there. Might as well put the 4 missing points towards con though.

Ghost touch seems like an odd weapon choice. Magic weapons still hit ghosts half the time, and you'll want something that works well on other creatures. Merciful, holy, obscure energy damage, or wounding are all good.

Boots of speed are awesome, but maybe the wizard should be hasting us instead. Maybe I should make an evoker in case he doesn't show and in case I don't get to play the rogue :smallfrown:.

Arakune
2009-12-02, 12:07 AM
I added up only a 24 PB, counting the +3 from levels, when you get 28. As a fighter you should have both str and con, so you're good there. Might as well put the 4 missing points towards con though.

Ghost touch seems like an odd weapon choice. Magic weapons still hit ghosts half the time, and you'll want something that works well on other creatures. Merciful, holy, obscure energy damage, or wounding are all good.

Boots of speed are awesome, but maybe the wizard should be hasting us instead. Maybe I should make an evoker in case he doesn't show and in case I don't get to play the rogue :smallfrown:.

It's 28 point buy, acording to the test ruleset.

Ghost touch was a cheap thing to apply to my weapon, since I got a satisfying AC at the time, and hitting incorporeal creatures only half the time sucks.

ericgrau
2009-12-02, 12:26 AM
Might as well check my math anyway. Because if I screwed something up with the point buy system, I need to go back and fix my character.

15 strength (+3 from levels) = 8 points
14 dex = 6 points
14 con (+2 from dwarf) = 6 points
10 int = 2 points
10 wis = 2 points
8 cha (-2 from dwarf) = 0 points
total = 24 points

You could at least add merciful for +1d6 damage, if not 2d6 in damage or wounding for a point of con. Because doing less damage against everything else sucks more. Who knows if we'll even meet an incorporeal, or more than 1 even if we do.

Arakune
2009-12-02, 12:41 AM
Might as well check my math anyway. Because if I screwed something up with the point buy system, I need to go back and fix my character.

15 strength (+3 from levels) = 8 points
14 dex = 6 points
14 con (+2 from dwarf) = 6 points
10 int = 2 points
10 wis = 2 points
8 cha (-2 from dwarf) = 0 points
total = 24 points

You could at least add merciful for +1d6 damage, if not 2d6 in damage or wounding for a point of con. Because doing less damage against everything else sucks more. Who knows if we'll even meet an incorporeal, or more than 1 even if we do.

It was 16 15 14+2 10 10 8-2 => 18 16 16 10 10 6.

It was a holy ghost touch weapon at first, but dropped holy and didn't knew what to do with the remaining cash.

Check this site (http://www.hackslash.net/?p=73)

Eldariel
2009-12-02, 12:47 AM
It was 16 15 14+2 10 10 8-2 => 18 16 16 10 10 6.

It was a holy ghost touch weapon at first, but dropped holy and didn't knew what to do with the remaining cash.

Check this site (http://www.hackslash.net/?p=73)

The bolded ones are Huhwhats. 15 Dex you evidently don't have since you have written 14 Dex on the sheet, and same goes for 16 Str since you have 3 level-ups.

Arakune
2009-12-02, 12:52 AM
The bolded ones are Huhwhats. 15 Dex you evidently don't have since you have written 14 Dex on the sheet, and same goes for 16 Str since you have 3 level-ups.

Can you decide on which version are you talking about? That one was before dropping mithral.

Now it is 16 12 16+2 10 10 8-2 => 18 12 18 10 10 6

Well, I guess I will put the spare point in dex. At least now I can take some other feats.

Eldariel
2009-12-02, 12:55 AM
Can you decide on which version are you talking about? That one was before dropping mithral.

Now it is 16 12 16+2 10 10 8-2 => 18 12 18 10 10 6

Well, I guess I will put the spare point in dex. At least now I can take some other feats.

I'd go 16/14/15/10/10/8. Then level-ups as +2 Str, +1 Con. This means, even if you Enlarge yourself, you'll have Dex to fill up your Plate.

Arakune
2009-12-02, 12:56 AM
I'd go 16/14/15/10/10/8. Then level-ups as +2 Str, +1 Con. This means, even if you Enlarge yourself, you'll have Dex to fill up your Plate.

Nah, I like Hp more. Speaking of him, need to change it.

Eldariel
2009-12-02, 01:01 AM
Nah, I like Hp more. Speaking of him, need to change it.

Eh, you get the exact same amount of HP that way. You'd end up with 18 Str (22 with items), 14 Dex, 18 Con (20 with items), 10 Int, 10 Wis, 6 Cha.

Arakune
2009-12-02, 01:02 AM
Eh, you get the exact same amount of HP that way. You'd end up with 18 Str (22 with items), 14 Dex, 18 Con (20 with items), 10 Int, 10 Wis, 6 Cha.

Changed then. Man, 4 am sucks.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-02, 02:02 AM
Editing fail. I meant to delete the phylactery which you already have and leave only circlet of persuasion for +3 to turning checks (which are cha checks). The phylactery of undead turning increases your effective class level by 4 for the purpose of turning, which is different.
together with my maxed out diplomacy that actually makes a lot of sense, I'll also look into the ioun stones.


Important: I plan to use magic vestment on my armour and shield, is it actually worth it to enchant my shield with a +1/+2 enchantment bones(costs: 4/9K gold)?

To the rest of the party, I'll probably can spare a few more castings of this spell if necessary, does anyone want to reserve one?(it'll give your armour a +4 bonus that is dispellable) Same goes for a theoratical magic weapon casting.

Arakune
2009-12-02, 02:46 AM
together with my maxed out diplomacy that actually makes a lot of sense, I'll also look into the ioun stones.


Important: I plan to use magic vestment on my armour and shield, is it actually worth it to enchant my shield with a +1/+2 enchantment bones(costs: 4/9K gold)?

To the rest of the party, I'll probably can spare a few more castings of this spell if necessary, does anyone want to reserve one?(it'll give your armour a +4 bonus that is dispellable) Same goes for a theoratical magic weapon casting.

I will get some greater magic wepons. I have just one oil left.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-02, 02:49 AM
Say, are we going to run a Half Elf Bard with max ranks in Diplomacy any time soon? Because I'd totally make that character.

Arakune
2009-12-02, 02:51 AM
Say, are we going to run a Half Elf Bard with max ranks in Diplomacy any time soon? Because I'd totally make that character.

I suppose blatant rules fail exploit should be avoided.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-02, 02:54 AM
I suppose blatant rules fail exploit should be avoided.

So I take it adding Leadership onto that build would be frowned upon?

Eldariel
2009-12-02, 03:09 AM
I suppose blatant rules fail exploit should be avoided.

Hm, few small changes I'd still make to your sheet:
- +2 Ring of Prot over +2 Amulet of Nat Armor; otherwise the same except Deflection applies to touch AC
- You've got +2 Dex listed in AC, but you can only apply +1 to it. This means your base AC should be 30, not 31. Happily, your Flat-Footed AC remains the same.
- I'd probably drop +3 on the Shield to +2 and instead purchase the Dusty Rose Ioun Stone again; again, the same reason. Same bonus except Dusty Rose applies to Touch AC.


Overall, it looks about as good as it's gonna get. A decent mix of offense and defense with reasonable mobility and solid HP along with about as good saves as you can have with a "Fighter as planned"-build. Tactically, don't forget the option of defensive fighting on occasion (vs. low AC trash), and obviously make as much use as possible of charge, higher ground, flanking and so on. And of course, since you've got Improved Bull Rush and Improved Sunder, use 'em with at least Hydras if nothing else.

@eric: Well, I think at these levels, the Wizard will rather be casting other spells if you're able to provide your own Haste. So yeah... Boots of Speed are equivalent to +2 AC in price, but given that Haste already provides +1 AC, I think it's an easy choice to pick 'em up.

Swordguy
2009-12-02, 05:01 AM
Tagging this thread so I don't lose it. I'm exceedingly interested in this.

I would point out that you should probably contact some of the AD&D or AD&D2e players on this site and run your characters by them. To get the full effect here, the mentality behind building the PCs should be that of a 2e player suddenly confronted with new rules to build the same character archetype. Part of that may well be not nitpicking over every single +1, because 2e simply didn't have the ability to DO that. What I'm seeing here is people who are very familiar with the system building PCs (admittedly suboptimal PCs) in such a way as to take maximum possible advantage of the system under the artificial restraints in the thread. Which isn't the point of the exercise, nor would it necessarily be the thought process behind a player or playtester coming into the new system. The thought is instead "can I represent this archetype under the new rules"? It's an important difference.

Awesome idea for the thread, though.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-02, 09:11 AM
Aye, I've been following the other ToS dungeon, I just wasn't sure how much of the structure was already established. So in that case, looks like we're just waiting on Tyndmyr for our blaster?

I've got my sheet in progress, I'll polish it off tonight.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-02, 10:41 AM
Tagging this thread so I don't lose it. I'm exceedingly interested in this.

I would point out that you should probably contact some of the AD&D or AD&D2e players on this site and run your characters by them. To get the full effect here, the mentality behind building the PCs should be that of a 2e player suddenly confronted with new rules to build the same character archetype. Part of that may well be not nitpicking over every single +1, because 2e simply didn't have the ability to DO that. What I'm seeing here is people who are very familiar with the system building PCs (admittedly suboptimal PCs) in such a way as to take maximum possible advantage of the system under the artificial restraints in the thread. Which isn't the point of the exercise, nor would it necessarily be the thought process behind a player or playtester coming into the new system. The thought is instead "can I represent this archetype under the new rules"? It's an important difference.

Awesome idea for the thread, though.The job of the playtesters was to break the game. Now, it's long been held(and I suspect correctly) that the reason they missed things like the value of a Druid was that they couldn't think someone would play outside the archetypes. So now, this group can attempt to break the game by staying inside Core and only using the archetypes.

ericgrau
2009-12-02, 11:28 AM
I would point out that you should probably contact some of the AD&D or AD&D2e players on this site and run your characters by them. To get the full effect here, the mentality behind building the PCs should be that of a 2e player suddenly confronted with new rules to build the same character archetype.

Tyndmyr / Evoker: On this note, you gotta prepare web. It's a classic that goes way back. There's a good point about getting boots instead haste above, especially since the fighter is the only one that truly needs it.

Fenix / Cleric:
I'm not sure if you should be grabbing a partial strand of prayer beads. Besides being an unintended item, the only way for such an item to exist for sale is this: "The power of a special bead is lost if it is removed from the strand. Reduce the price of a strand of prayer beads that is missing one or more beads by the following amounts..." So the shop keep cant just cut off a karma bead and sell it alone. Someone actually has to accidentally cut off the very expensive bead of smiting, bead of healing and bead of blessing. Yet not karma. And then they must sell it to a shop keep.

Crafting weapons, armor and wondrous items (especially ability score boosters) could also save us all a lot of money, without dispel vulnerability, if ToS allows it. Besides +X's the merciful enchantment is good.

Without the bead you may want to use your 3rd level spell slots for something other than +2's. But if you keep it Stiggy would take a magic vestment for his shield and a greater magic weapon for his crossbow. Though he's not a major combatant.

Superglucose
2009-12-02, 11:42 AM
I don't know, Haste seems like a pretty obvious pre-combat buff, especially since it's multi-target.

In any case it's wise to bring your own boots just in case :smallwink:

ericgrau
2009-12-02, 11:44 AM
Ya I thought the same at first, but then I noticed that the fighter would be doing most of the swinging. Either rogue needs greater invis to get more than 1 sneak attack anyway. Stiggy would also need to change a feat. Cleric McHeals spends half his time healing.

Arakune
2009-12-02, 12:42 PM
Tagging this thread so I don't lose it. I'm exceedingly interested in this.

I would point out that you should probably contact some of the AD&D or AD&D2e players on this site and run your characters by them. To get the full effect here, the mentality behind building the PCs should be that of a 2e player suddenly confronted with new rules to build the same character archetype. Part of that may well be not nitpicking over every single +1, because 2e simply didn't have the ability to DO that. What I'm seeing here is people who are very familiar with the system building PCs (admittedly suboptimal PCs) in such a way as to take maximum possible advantage of the system under the artificial restraints in the thread. Which isn't the point of the exercise, nor would it necessarily be the thought process behind a player or playtester coming into the new system. The thought is instead "can I represent this archetype under the new rules"? It's an important difference.

Awesome idea for the thread, though.

Nice catch, and thanks for the praise :smallbiggrin:

We can make that the secondary challenge. This one you can more or less otimize the char while still holding some standard archetype, and maybe in the next one we will try to make the character creation more "noviceish", by placing harder constraints for character creation (make a backstory/personality and take the +2 skill bonus to X to reflect that, you don't actually buy equips, but roll for then, etc).

That is, if this challenge proves popular.

Superglucose
2009-12-02, 01:16 PM
So Lydda has and is ready!

I was thinking it'd be pretty funny to do this with strictly the "starting packages" they give you in the PHB, extrapolated along those lines to level 13.

TheThan
2009-12-02, 01:18 PM
That is a very good idea. it seems to me that, that is a reasonable way of interpreting ďas intendedĒ.

edit

yeah we could even play ďiconicĒ characters in the core rulebooks. You know, Krusk, Tordek, Lidda, Mialee ect. although we'd probably have to start from 1st level.

Arakune
2009-12-02, 01:20 PM
So, re-equipping everyone? Ouch :smalleek:

Or is it for the next challenge ?

Superglucose
2009-12-02, 01:42 PM
Next challenge.

TheThan
2009-12-02, 02:07 PM
Next challenge.

next test of spite challenge: level one phb dungeon crawl!

Eldariel
2009-12-02, 10:31 PM
next test of spite challenge: level one phb dungeon crawl!

Their stats have been printed for 5, 10 and 15 too IIRC. They're even online, I think. In the book archive thingy.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-02, 10:35 PM
In progress classic wizzie available for viewing here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=170407).

Specialist evoker. Loremaster(going steady, not just a dip). Good ol' feats like Empower Spell, Skill Focus:Knowledge Arcana, save boosters, Improved Init, and of course, Craft Wonderous Item. Provided this is allowed by ToS rules(I didnt see it banned), this should allow us to craft away, saving mucho dinero.

Are we using any variant rules for crafting(ie, wearer contributes xp, or craft point pool)?

Superglucose
2009-12-02, 11:04 PM
I'm pretty sure ToS doesn't allow crafting your own items.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-02, 11:09 PM
Eh, if that's the case, I'll swap out for metamagic.

Arakune
2009-12-02, 11:24 PM
Just a little question: before 3.x, how common where wizard dwarves? Or how common where the concept of wizard dwarves at the beginning of the third edition?

They are awesome at it, but hipoteticaly the vast majority of them where supposed to be fighter types.

Tyndmyr, the skills with unusual scores where a nice touch :smallwink:

Eldariel
2009-12-02, 11:29 PM
Just a little question: before 3.x, how common where wizard dwarves? Or how common where the concept of wizard dwarves at the beginning of the third edition?

You weren't allowed to make a Dwarven Wizard in AD&D, IIRC.

Arakune
2009-12-02, 11:33 PM
You weren't allowed to make a Dwarven Wizard in AD&D, IIRC.

That much I kind of understand (but how did the dwarves got they amazing magic items and legendary weapon/armor crafters fame if they couldn't use magic? clerics?), but after the transition from AD&D to D&D3.x it was an instant change or it took then a while to make one?

Tyndmyr
2009-12-02, 11:40 PM
I believe you could make a dwarven caster in second ed. They do have a strong fighter theme, of course, but a dwarven caster isn't terribly unusual. I expect to take a decent amount of spells involving stone, metal, and fire.

I might give him a waraxe, just to play to type, though.

Eldariel
2009-12-02, 11:44 PM
That much I kind of understand (but how did the dwarves got they amazing magic items and legendary weapon/armor crafters fame if they couldn't use magic? clerics?), but after the transition from AD&D to D&D3.x it was an instant change or it took then a while to make one?

Well, I remember the first Wizard I saw was a Dwarf; I guess people did it a lot since it worked. PHB even notes that while Dwarven Wizards are rare, the race lends itself well for wizardy (while the traditionally wizardy High Elves suck as Wizards; I guess they still have the sense to favor the best class in the game tho).

[email protected]: From AD&D 2e PHB:
"A character of the dwarven race can be a cleric, a fighter, or a thief. He can also choose to be a fighter/cleric or fighter/thief."

TheThan
2009-12-02, 11:56 PM
Besides, dwarfís favored class is not wizard. Though I do admit, I like the idea of dwarf wizards.

Swordguy
2009-12-03, 12:54 AM
That much I kind of understand (but how did the dwarves got they amazing magic items and legendary weapon/armor crafters fame if they couldn't use magic? clerics?), but after the transition from AD&D to D&D3.x it was an instant change or it took then a while to make one?

One of the brown books allowed for this - they still couldn't be "wizards" by class, but they could craft magic weapons/armor.

ericgrau
2009-12-03, 03:41 AM
Ya man where's your elf? At least with that and a hawk or owl familiar you could get a nice bonus to spot checks. Tack on cheapo goggles of minute seeing and with that and your high int you can take full advantage of your elf sense vs. secret doors.

Not sure what the point of loremaster was. With all the requirements you may be better with straight wizard. Doesn't hurt much either I guess.

Arakune
2009-12-03, 12:01 PM
Ya man where's your elf? At least with that and a hawk or owl familiar you could get a nice bonus to spot checks. Tack on cheapo goggles of minute seeing and with that and your high int you can take full advantage of your elf sense vs. secret doors.

Not sure what the point of loremaster was. With all the requirements you may be better with straight wizard. Doesn't hurt much either I guess.

Loremaster is still a full casting PrC, and with the exception of one metamagic feat at 10th level and familiar progression, he is getting more by PrC out of wiz.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-03, 12:09 PM
Can swap to human. Human magic user is pretty well supported. I'm rapidly running out of good feats, honestly.

Loremaster certainly isn't the hottest PrC out there, but core only is pretty restricted, and it seems to most closely match the wizardly archtype. The prereqs aren't bad either, since the metamagic/item crafting prereqs are mostly autofilled by wizard anyhow. It burns one via the skill focus, but it gives you a free feat as a replacement. Save boosts are nice, and the at will identify is handy. Familiar progression is mostly pointless anyhow.

Also, UMD as a class skill is pretty cool. Not that important, since I wont likely be using lots of divine stuff anyway, but cool.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-03, 01:15 PM
Creation costs are:

(Gold, Exp)= (J*(1/2)*Base_price, K*(1/25)*Base_price)
Where K and J are cost reductions from feats or class features and may go no lower than .65

So crafting is allowed, I like the option, but I'd like to now how our XP is calculated(if at all) before I start crafting.

And Tyndmyr I understand why you don't want to play an elf, but considering their favoured class and mailee, I think you should.

Arakune
2009-12-03, 01:20 PM
So crafting is allowed, I like the option, but I'd like to now how our XP is calculated(if at all) before I start crafting.

And Tyndmyr I understand why you don't want to play an elf, but considering their favoured class and mailee, I think you should.

Yeah, play a 8 Con wizard. That's clearly optimizing :smallwink:

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-03, 01:30 PM
Yeah, play a 8 Con wizard. That's clearly optimizing :smallwink:

meh, 12 con wizard with +2 or +4 item to con should be playable.

Arakune
2009-12-03, 01:34 PM
meh, 12 con wizard with +2 or +4 item to con should be playable.

No, the point was to play as a 8 Con wizard.

ericgrau
2009-12-03, 01:49 PM
Ha human with a decent con is fine. Anyway elves are supposed to dual class or something :smalltongue:.

I didn't realize that all the lore master pre-reqs are what you need to load up on anyway, not to mention scribe scroll is a freebie. Ya, go for it. At the very least you get +2 fort, +2 ref and +4 will saves and some skills.

And why'd you get a rod to boost your spell range? Did you actually want widen spell or do you have some kind of plan in mind? Oh, and don't diss the horse. Spellcasting on the move is handy. Just put 2 ranks in ride so you can auto-pass the important DC 5 checks. As long as you don't do a full gallop (run action) you should auto-pass the concentration checks. Even on a full gallop you'd only need to roll a 3 to cast a level 7 spell. All that for 4 skill points doesn't suck.

You may want to blow a couple grand for barding on the horse, or maybe you figure he'll die on the first attack anyway. Level 13 is a good level for phantom steed if you want a backup and don't have any better ideas for your 6th 3rd level spell. That thing is ridiculously fast.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-04, 11:40 AM
If we want to get this thing going, I suggest someone makes a OOC and IC thread. meanwhile I'd still like to hear from the DM how xp is going to work.

Arakune
2009-12-04, 11:49 AM
IC thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133816)

OOC thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133815)

Done and done. When the DM aproves all the charsheets we can start playing.

ericgrau
2009-12-04, 11:52 AM
IIRC the ToS rules says you get the xp of a 13th level character. So burning some puts you at 12th level. Kinda sucks for the wizard, but that'd be great for the cleric given his role. He could save us all tons of money... unless you're only allowed to craft for yourself.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-04, 12:57 PM
Ha human with a decent con is fine. Anyway elves are supposed to dual class or something :smalltongue:.

Yeah...elves suck as casters unless you take grey or fire variants. Neither of which fits in the current criteria. Human should still be reasonably thematic.


I didn't realize that all the lore master pre-reqs are what you need to load up on anyway, not to mention scribe scroll is a freebie. Ya, go for it. At the very least you get +2 fort, +2 ref and +4 will saves and some skills.

Yeah, it's a decent generalist class, which seems appropriate. Archmage is probably strictly better from an optimzation perspective, but it seems slightly less thematic.


And why'd you get a rod to boost your spell range? Did you actually want widen spell or do you have some kind of plan in mind?

Rays, pretty much. And hey, it's pretty cheap. It's a something that might be helpful, but that I don't want to waste a feat/spell levels on. Subject to change, Im still looking at my magic item loadout.


Oh, and don't diss the horse. Spellcasting on the move is handy. Just put 2 ranks in ride so you can auto-pass the important DC 5 checks. As long as you don't do a full gallop (run action) you should auto-pass the concentration checks. Even on a full gallop you'd only need to roll a 3 to cast a level 7 spell. All that for 4 skill points doesn't suck.

Should probably do that. Was considering barding already, and skill points are not terribly tight for me(look at what I dumped on knowledge skills)

Y
ou may want to blow a couple grand for barding on the horse, or maybe you figure he'll die on the first attack anyway. Level 13 is a good level for phantom steed if you want a backup and don't have any better ideas for your 6th 3rd level spell. That thing is ridiculously fast.

Eh, a horse is cheap and expendable. More importantly, since he's trained for war, he can actually attack. It's likely the only way that I'll ever take AoOs, so it might provide a marginally effective means of keeping things away from me. Or at least, taking a hit for me. Barding will be bought if it turns out Ive got extra money at the end.

Now, what to spend my pile of gold on?

As for crafting, I either want to do a good bit, or not at all. After all, if Im gonna be level 12, may as well burn it all off. Don't want to go below that, tho.

Eldariel
2009-12-04, 01:13 PM
You also cannot enter Archmage before 14 making that a moot point. Wizard 7/Loremaster 6 is the best way to go, even if you don't use UMD (which would be opposed to the spirit of the challenge); you end up with a total of 1 feat less (the level 10 Wizard feat), but with lots of niceness in exchange (and 4+Int skills!!!).

As for Phantom Steed, remember that if you end up with any CL boosters (like the Ioun Stone, which you just might!), it's flying at 240' speed. So it's pretty good.


Btw, I dug up some Mialee stats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626b) just to see what WoTC playtesters did with a Wizard. Check the equipment and feats and weep in terror. Highlights include:
- +1 Mw Longbow (nice money spent there)
- Bracers of Armor +2 (even though she's perfectly capable of casting Mage Armor)
- Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (meeeeh)
- Ring of Protection +1 (meeeeh)
- Wand of Cat's Grace (out of all the level 2 spells, she couldn't find anything more useful?)

Mind, it's 3.0 but most everything in this is the same in 3.5 (save for Cat's Grace). She also has AC of 17 and 22 HP on level 7; in other words, she's a walking corpse. And her feats are...Toughness, Scribe Scroll and Spell Focus: Evocation! For whatever reason her level 7 feat remains unlisted.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-04, 01:22 PM
22 points at level 7 WITH toughness? That gives her...10 or 11 con, with an unexplained single hp.

I'd actually defend the wand of cat's grace, as it's a spell I cast quite often, given how many players benefit from dex. I might take it myself. The rest, though...a magic bow? WTF?

Edit: As for UMD, Im taking that solely so I can tinker with magic stuff we find, which I think is appropriate. Im not loading up on wands of CLW or anything. After all, who needs that when we have a cleric? :smallamused:

Eldariel
2009-12-04, 01:25 PM
22 points at level 7 WITH toughness? That gives her...10 or 11 con, with an unexplained single hp.

It's Elite Array; with Elven Adjustments of course. 15 Int, 14 (+2) Dex, 13 (-2) Con, 12 Wis, 10 Str, 8 Cha. That she cannot be faulted for since...well, Elite Array sucks.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-04, 01:34 PM
Elite array does suck...but at that point, I'd choose con over dex as my secondary stat. 22hp is easily in one shot range of even normal attacks at that level.

Plus the focus on a collection of meh armor items is odd. Sure, boosting AC is nice, but you will still get hit at some point. Stat boosts would have been vastly more helpful.

Eldariel
2009-12-04, 01:42 PM
Elite array does suck...but at that point, I'd choose con over dex as my secondary stat. 22hp is easily in one shot range of even normal attacks at that level.

Plus the focus on a collection of meh armor items is odd. Sure, boosting AC is nice, but you will still get hit at some point. Stat boosts would have been vastly more helpful.

Yes, I know. I'm just pointing out that there is some rationale to the decisions. The #1 thing that WTFd me was the lack of a Con-booster. She'd have almost double her HP with just 14 Con (12 + 2 from item).

And she AC isn't gonna be high enough to dodge anything anyways. And Bracers of Armor don't stack with fcking anything. And so on. Yeah, it all sucks. Which is what I wanted to show you. That is quite possibly the worst use of level 7 wealth I've ever seen.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-04, 02:15 PM
Yeah....I won't do full on optimization, but damn...Im not going to suck that badly. Whoever built that character wasn't even trying.

TheThan
2009-12-04, 02:47 PM
For the iconic character contest I suggest the group split into two parties, one with five players and the other with six players.

Methinks it would look like this:

party 1:Fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric, bard
party 2: Barbarian, ranger, paladin, druid, sorcerer, monk


but Iím getting ahead of myself here, when is the dungeon for this one going to be ready?

Arakune
2009-12-04, 05:04 PM
For the iconic character contest I suggest the group split into two parties, one with five players and the other with six players.

Methinks it would look like this:

party 1:Fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric, bard
party 2: Barbarian, ranger, paladin, druid, sorcerer, monk


but Iím getting ahead of myself here, when is the dungeon for this one going to be ready?

depends on dm. if she cant play, i will try some dm from the test of spite

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-04, 06:19 PM
IIRC the ToS rules says you get the xp of a 13th level character. So burning some puts you at 12th level. Kinda sucks for the wizard, but that'd be great for the cleric given his role. He could save us all tons of money... unless you're only allowed to craft for yourself.

Well, if we never level ever, than I'm perfectly comfortable to burn my (I think) 12K exp on crafting items for everybody, if I do level to 13 at some point, than I'm still willing to burn my Xp for others, but I do expect some compensation.

Also TheThan, I just noticed you used LA buy-off, while probebly technicly legal, I think this fall into the same category as tagging stat bonus onto other magic items. It's against the spirit of the challenge as it wasn't part of the original core.
Do with it what you wish, I'm certainly not going to force you to change your character, but I'd change it to something else.

ericgrau
2009-12-04, 07:46 PM
Gah, computer ate my post. Ok, short version time.

You'd have to craft 300,000 gp in items to burn 12,000 xp. Good idea, but one more question: Does ToS allow crafting for eachother? Just in case we should keep two gear lists: one without crafting, and one with 50% discounts for items that the cleric can craft. Which crafting feats would you get btw?

Good gear for a wizard:
A staff can add more spells. A staff of fire is a nice affordable option which makes your lower level spells free for non-blasting, yet if you don't want to waste a high level spell you have a long lasting staff.
Scrolls, wands
Pearls of power
Ability score boosts, save boosts
Misc wondrous items are good for anybody. Check out my rogue.
Handy haversack.
Emergency healing potion(s). Whoops I should probably get some too. Or maybe I'd just run and hide.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-04, 08:11 PM
You'd have to craft 300,000 gp in items to burn 12,000 xp. Good idea, but one more question: Does ToS allow crafting for eachother? Just in case we should keep two gear lists: one without crafting, and one with 50% discounts for items that the cleric can craft. Which crafting feats would you get btw?


I know it does, but we have a total of 550,000 gp, so that shouldn't be a problem, I however do not know if ToS allows it, we'd have to ask Doc roc himself. well the second part is nearly exactly what I've already done, I assumed I'd be taking craft wondrous items and reselected an equipment list based on that. I assumed I wouldn't change my non-wondrous items, though I didn't specify that anywhere, so it could be unclear to anyone not-me.

I would theoretically be willing to change out all feats but improved turning for crafting feats if necessary, but I don't really see the point.
For this reason:
Stuff I own.
# magical weapons and armour: 1, cost:(enchantment only) 4000
# rods:1, cost:3000(but I'd like to have 2, cost 14000)
# rings:1, cost:8000
# wands: 2, cost: 1500
# wondrous items: 7, cost: the rest of my WBL, about 80K

Arakune
2009-12-04, 08:18 PM
I know it does, but we have a total of 550,000 gp, so that shouldn't be a problem, I however do not know if ToS allows it, we'd have to ask Doc roc himself. well the second part is nearly exactly what I've already done, I assumed I'd be taking craft wondrous items and reselected an equipment list based on that. I assumed I wouldn't change my non-wondrous items, though I didn't specify that anywhere, so it could be unclear to anyone not-me.

I would theoretically be willing to change out all feats but improved turning for crafting feats if necessary, but I don't really see the point.
For this reason:
Stuff I own.
# magical weapons and armour: 1, cost:(enchantment only) 4000
# rods:1, cost:3000(but I'd like to have 2, cost 14000)
# rings:1, cost:8000
# wands: 2, cost: 1500
# wondrous items: 7, cost: the rest of my WBL, about 80K

I guess that if you want to craft, you need to do it with your own money.

ericgrau
2009-12-04, 08:46 PM
I know it does, but we have a total of 550,000 gp, so that shouldn't be a problem
Pre-reqs are a big issue here, plus multiple feats for all the different item types. Maybe with help from the wizard for certain spells you could do it. That'll take more collaboration though, or just buy him some scrolls to scribe into his book. You need two classes working together just to craft my armor. Or take one of my favorite weapon buffs: holy. You need to be a cleric with the right domain to pull it off. Sheesh. Certain skill items require lots of ranks, which pretty much requires a bard or multi-classing or a very high level.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-04, 08:55 PM
Yea, prereqs can be nasty, but as a cleric knows all cleric spells it usually doable, the only item I don't know if I can actually make it is the "Handy haversack", in which case I'll just drop that item.

TheThan
2009-12-04, 09:54 PM
Also TheThan, I just noticed you used LA buy-off, while probebly technicly legal, I think this fall into the same category as tagging stat bonus onto other magic items. It's against the spirit of the challenge as it wasn't part of the original core.
Do with it what you wish, I'm certainly not going to force you to change your character, but I'd change it to something else.


Someone said the LA buyoff was ok since it is allowed in the SRD. If it isnít, Iím still down a level due to Level adjustment (unless I get to be 13th level with the LA). It depends on what Sallera wishes, since heís the Dm. Iím sorta waiting on an answer so I know if I have to make any changes.

Arakune
2009-12-04, 10:11 PM
Someone said the LA buyoff was ok since it is allowed in the SRD. If it isnít, Iím still down a level due to Level adjustment (unless I get to be 13th level with the LA). It depends on what Sallera wishes, since heís the Dm. Iím sorta waiting on an answer so I know if I have to make any changes.

Around that. Don't know why LA buy off isn't core, and for the purpose of this exercise it isn't going to influence much. But that's still up to the DM.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-05, 05:26 AM
A, it's the "what is core again" debate. I know there are people who claim that SRD=core, but the way Arakune laid out the challenge, limiting the challenge to core because that's all the original playtesters had, it would seem to me that only the original three books should be allowed for this challenge.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-05, 05:28 AM
A, it's the "what is core again" debate. I know there are people who claim that SRD=core, but the way Arakune laid out the challenge, limiting the challenge to core because that's all the original playtesters had

Along with everything 3.0...

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-05, 05:36 AM
Along with everything 3.0...

If you were playtesting 3.5, why would you assume you had all the options of 3.0? You are creating a new edition for a reason, no?

Sliver
2009-12-05, 06:08 AM
If you were playtesting 3.5, why would you assume you had all the options of 3.0? You are creating a new edition for a reason, no?

No? 3.5 is not really a new edition compared to 3.0, and you can still use any 3.0 material that was not 3.5 reprinted... When 3.5 was tested there already was 3.0 material that they could use..

hamishspence
2009-12-05, 06:13 AM
they also updated many of the 3.0 books around the same time as 3.5 came out, in a booklet which also appeared online- maybe they were already using said books in the process of designing 3.5?

Several things that were in the old books, made it to the 3.5 DMG- epic rules and a few planar rules, epic feats, etc.

Arakune
2009-12-05, 05:18 PM
Ugh, things will get more and more complicated this way. I will PM the TheThan for him to change the character.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-05, 06:02 PM
Ugh, things will get more and more complicated this way. I will PM the TheThan for him to change the character.

Assuming you're talking about 3.0 stuff, it doesn't have to, just ignore it for this challenge and go on the way you planned.

Arakune
2009-12-05, 06:09 PM
Assuming you're talking about 3.0 stuff, it doesn't have to, just ignore it for this challenge and go on the way you planned.

More on the line of LA buy off. If you pretend the 3 core 3.5 books where the first ones to launch, I don't think that's a core rule.

The Test of Spite rule sets are there for a quick list of normaly banned stuff.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-05, 06:44 PM
Btw, I dug up some Mialee stats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626b) just to see what WoTC playtesters did with a Wizard. Check the equipment and feats and weep in terror. Highlights include:
- +1 Mw Longbow (nice money spent there)
- Bracers of Armor +2 (even though she's perfectly capable of casting Mage Armor)
- Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (meeeeh)
- Ring of Protection +1 (meeeeh)
- Wand of Cat's Grace (out of all the level 2 spells, she couldn't find anything more useful?)

Mind, it's 3.0 but most everything in this is the same in 3.5 (save for Cat's Grace). She also has AC of 17 and 22 HP on level 7; in other words, she's a walking corpse. And her feats are...Toughness, Scribe Scroll and Spell Focus: Evocation! For whatever reason her level 7 feat remains unlisted.

She at least remembered to buy a headband. Maybe the wand if to buff Monks like Ember.

ericgrau
2009-12-05, 07:49 PM
A, it's the "what is core again" debate. I know there are people who claim that SRD=core, but the way Arakune laid out the challenge, limiting the challenge to core because that's all the original playtesters had, it would seem to me that only the original three books should be allowed for this challenge.

Try www.d20srd.org. In nice big print they have a section called "Core Rules" which covers the PHB, DMG and MM. I'm not gonna use that to say only those 3 are core (well, not today anyway :smallbiggrin:). But if you want those 3 books just use the "Core Rules" column. That'll keep things easy. The other parts of the SRD are other books.

TheThan
2009-12-05, 08:08 PM
Iím happy to make any necessary changes to the sheet, the problem is I donít quite know what everyone wants from me.

If I dump the LA buyoff, it doesnít really change my character, other than the amount of xp I have and how much itíll take to get me to 13th level. really all it does is make me level like a character without LA.

If the Aasmar thing is the problem, Iím happy to switch to a PHB race. Just let me know what I need to do to the sheet.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-05, 09:33 PM
...is Leadership banned? Because they definitely should have tested that, and omitting it from this challenge would be simply criminal. :smallbiggrin:

UglyPanda
2009-12-05, 09:50 PM
One of the rules of the challenge should be that RAI takes precedent over RAW. I mean, "Intended" is part of the challenge's name.

Superglucose
2009-12-06, 04:22 AM
...is Leadership banned? Because they definitely should have tested that, and omitting it from this challenge would be simply criminal. :smallbiggrin:
Leadership is out, we're not testing balance :smalltongue:

Remember that Leadership is an optional rule from the DMG.

taltamir
2009-12-06, 07:52 AM
speaking of XP burn...
In TOEE CO8 mod they have fully implemented crafting by the RAW. And I noticed that if you craft + sell you can convert XP to money at a great rate, which can then be used to craft more items...

+6 to everything? yes please!
A flaming, thundering, corrosive, shocking, icy weapon? yes please!

Enlarge person on fighter (who is ideally large to begin with). you now have reach (or improve your reach). Large fighter with a reach weapon with enlarge gives you an attack zone of 10 to 25 feet (you cannot hit things exactly near you without a 5 foot step). They also provoke AoO like CRAZY. every step towards you provokes another AoO (you want some nice dex and combat reflexes to capitalize on that)

Top it off with freedom of movement + grease / web / whatever, super equip the enlarged fighter (+6 to con, str, and dex), super buff the enlarged fighter, and give it greater cleave. at level 13 we are talking about 3 + 1 from haste attacks per round + multiple AoO, each one dealing a ton of damage, and each death giving a free extra attack (unlimited amount cleaves per round; allowing you to "chain cleave" enemies).

Naturally everyone has a +6 item to "stat of choice".

Thing is, this is too... communistic for most. It works in a CRPG where you face hordes of weaker enemies, share all property, and control all characters, but a group of players want to shine together, not pool their resources to make one character godly.

So, anyways, this thread is awesome, too bad I didn't notice it earlier or I'd have jumped in on the idea... I actually recently built a healbot cleric (which ended up as still a pretty scary fighter) for an actual game as an alt (but have yet to get a chance to use it)...

I am gonna follow along and see how this goes though.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-06, 08:06 AM
Iím happy to make any necessary changes to the sheet, the problem is I donít quite know what everyone wants from me.

If I dump the LA buyoff, it doesnít really change my character, other than the amount of xp I have and how much itíll take to get me to 13th level. really all it does is make me level like a character without LA.

If the Aasmar thing is the problem, Iím happy to switch to a PHB race. Just let me know what I need to do to the sheet.

Well I can only speak for myself, but like I already said, I'd rather have you play without LA buy-off.
If you still want to play an aasimar then that's fine by me, but it will be sub-optimal, as long as you are aware of that I'm good.


Also, we have two rogues listed, we should really pick one.

ericgrau
2009-12-06, 09:32 AM
The other guy made one first, but I'd be more than happy to take the spot if allowed.

Kesnit
2009-12-06, 12:31 PM
I actually recently built a healbot cleric (which ended up as still a pretty scary fighter) for an actual game as an alt (but have yet to get a chance to use it)...

I made a DMPC Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor "Healbot" (and that was her name) for a short campaign I ran a year or so ago. It worked pretty well, but I don't know how much fun it would be in a longer campaign as a PC.

Superglucose
2009-12-06, 09:35 PM
Do we have a GM yet?

Also as for rogues, OOH OOH! PICK ME PICK ME! I promise as many posts in a day as you need! And cookies!*



*the text files, not actual baked yumminess.

taltamir
2009-12-07, 12:11 PM
on that note, I really wish I could try a "monk as intended" in this thread for a 5th wheel :)
Monk is perfect for the role, it is durable and has a list of resistances and immunities... and it can't hurt anything. So basically, its comic relief.

Arakune
2009-12-07, 01:16 PM
on that note, I really wish I could try a "monk as intended" in this thread for a 5th wheel :)
Monk is perfect for the role, it is durable and has a list of resistances and immunities... and it can't hurt anything. So basically, its comic relief.

Maybe on the next one :smallwink: In fact, if you want to do it in the next challenge, we can reserve a spot for you.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-07, 01:20 PM
on that note, I really wish I could try a "monk as intended" in this thread for a 5th wheel :)
Monk is perfect for the role, it is durable and has a list of resistances and immunities... and it can't hurt anything. So basically, its comic relief.

Look no further than the Test of Spite: The Monkening.

ericgrau
2009-12-07, 01:33 PM
Do we have a GM yet?

Also as for rogues, OOH OOH! PICK ME PICK ME! I promise as many posts in a day as you need! And cookies!*



*the text files, not actual baked yumminess.

A vote for my rogue is a vote for more sneakiness :smallbiggrin:. But if nobody cares then we'll just say Superglucose was here first and I'll yield :smallfrown:.

Wings of Peace
2009-12-07, 01:36 PM
One of the rules of the challenge should be that RAI takes precedent over RAW. I mean, "Intended" is part of the challenge's name.

You are implying that there is a universal agreement on RAIs.

ericgrau
2009-12-07, 01:39 PM
At least it'd avoid some of the crazier RAW shenanigans we can all agree on.

Wings of Peace
2009-12-07, 01:57 PM
At least it'd avoid some of the crazier RAW shenanigans we can all agree on.

I think that's already covered largely since we're doing this by CAI

Sallera
2009-12-07, 04:20 PM
Ei, I didn't realize there was still debate going on in this thread. Don't usually pay attention to the RPG forum. :smalltongue:

That said, no LA buyoff, as we're using the ToS ruleset and that forbids it. On the rogue question, Superglucose was technically here first, and that does seem to be how we're doing this, but I've no stake in the matter; we've a few days to wait anyway, since Doc Roc's busy this week, so feel free to work it out amongst yourselves.

TheThan
2009-12-07, 04:32 PM
I changed my character from Assmar to gnome. That gets rid of the level adjustment, the buy off, and any other problems people have with the character. Barring any mistakes on my part, I think this is going to be the last time the character gets edited. before the game.

taltamir
2009-12-07, 06:53 PM
Maybe on the next one :smallwink: In fact, if you want to do it in the next challenge, we can reserve a spot for you.

sounds good. i will wait.

ericgrau
2009-12-09, 08:43 PM
If that happens, I don't get to play this challenge, and a rogue would fit, I'd like in on it too.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 10:53 PM
I'd like to note that as I've unexpectedly become rather busy of late, and with holidays upon us, if someone else would like to play wizard McBlasty, I'll happily give them first crack at it.

taltamir
2009-12-15, 01:47 AM
I will do it.

taltamir
2009-12-15, 10:43 AM
is that ok? should I go ahead and make a wizard? core only, correct?

Arakune
2009-12-15, 11:37 AM
is that ok? should I go ahead and make a wizard? core only, correct?

Carry on dude.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-15, 05:46 PM
is that ok? should I go ahead and make a wizard? core only, correct?

Go nuts!!!!

taltamir
2009-12-16, 12:39 AM
I started at 10:45am... it is now 11:45pm... I took one 1 hour break at 6pm to buy food and eat it (my fridge was empty). Other than that I was working on it non stop :)
Wow has it been a lot of work.
If someone is interested:

Items (thus far): http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApcEvOA-L4zcdGtCQndydlJyZ3F1alVleFhva3JrNFE&hl=en

Wizard: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=173207

Wizard's Spells prepared and known: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZcEvOA-L4zcZGNqNnF0NDdfNjg3ZG1jNTl4amI&hl=en

Familiar: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=173226