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Draxar
2009-11-29, 01:12 PM
What other means than being a 2nd level Pale Master are there to get Animate Dead without the material cost?

Playing in a post apocalyptic Eberron game, and I can't reliably get access to gems and such. Plus, for keeping combat simple, I want to have a smaller number of higher HD undead, and for those I start with, it'll be easier to justify having 'em if I can have summoned hordes of lesser undead to take them down.

I'm aware that spell-like abilities don't cost, but I can't think of any that are accessible, as this has to work at level 9, or at most, 10.

I'm currently looking at taking Wizard 7, PM 2. Any other suggestions for Prestige classes that fit with a Wizard wandering around with undead that look like they're constructs due to all over armour would also be useful.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 01:17 PM
Fell Animate + Control Undead spell?
Fell Animate animates as a skeleton a creature killed with spell.
Control undead 2nd level necro spell that has no save if mindless undead.

Together = profit!

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-29, 01:18 PM
Dread Necromancer is an awesome base class for an undead-creator. Cha-based with Bluff and Disguise as class skills, too.

It's generally recommended that you Spell Stitch your raven(you did take a raven familiar, didn't you) in order to get Animate Dead as an SLA.

Draxar
2009-11-29, 01:24 PM
Fell Animate + Control Undead spell?
Fell Animate animates as a skeleton a creature killed with spell.
Control undead 2nd level necro spell that has no save if mindless undead.

Together = profit!

Possibly. The need to re-bind them every so often would put me off slightly.

The thing that makes it less suitable is that, since he's going to be pretending not to be a necromancer, he can't really have the standard operating procedure of raising on the battlefield. If pale master didn't exist, I'd go for that, but as it is, I'm willing to lose the one level of casting for the free Animate Dead.

Draxar
2009-11-29, 01:30 PM
Dread Necromancer is an awesome base class for an undead-creator. Cha-based with Bluff and Disguise as class skills, too.

Problem is, this character isn't a Dread Necromancer. I'm aware of 'em, and they are cool.

But this character is a wizard. He's a crotchety old guy, he's about the planning and things going exactly as he wants them to. The way he does things, in my head, very much says 'wizard'.

Beyond that, he's not going to be casting necromantic spells on a normal day – he'll be casting magic missile, fireball, and suchlike, looking like an 'ordinary' wizard, rather than a necromancer. And the Dread Necromancer doesn't have enough spells that aren't necromantic in flavour to do that.


It's generally recommended that you Spell Stitch your raven(you did take a raven familiar, didn't you) in order to get Animate Dead as an SLA.

That's a possibility. Where are the rules for spell stiched familiars then?

nekomata2
2009-11-29, 01:50 PM
The spell-stitched template is in Complete Arcane.

Draxar
2009-11-29, 02:11 PM
Rather expensive, and means you've got a visibly undead familiar flapping around, which doesn't work with what I'm doing.

I'm also guessing you're treating Animate Dead as a Divine Spell so that the 14 wisdom Raven can cast it? I'm not sure I'd get that past my DM.

Lastly, it also falls down on the fact that the Raven controls the unded until you nick 'em, which firstly means you have to be casting to keep them.

Secondly it falls down because this character is going to have a feat that melds armour into undead, and it needs to be him casting to get the benefits of that.

Haven
2009-11-29, 02:26 PM
I must say, post-apocalypse is probably the best time to be a necromancer.

Coidzor
2009-11-29, 02:42 PM
Need to take a feat in order to have an undead familiar first, I believe, and then you have to spend the XP in order to add the spell-stitched feat to the familiar. They can know some number of SLAs in relation to their wisdom stat.

Edit:
Rather expensive, and means you've got a visibly undead familiar flapping around, which doesn't work with what I'm doing.

I'm also guessing you're treating Animate Dead as a Divine Spell so that the 14 wisdom Raven can cast it? I'm not sure I'd get that past my DM.

Secondly it falls down because this character is going to have a feat that melds armour into undead, and it needs to be him casting to get the benefits of that.

Lastly, it also falls down on the fact that the Raven controls the unded until you nick 'em, which firstly means you have to be casting to keep them.


SLAs don't need the requisite casting stat. Or material components. Or XP components. Or focii. And having your familiar control them rather than you directly isn't that big of an inconvenience, especially at ECL 9ish.

Corpsecrafter feats would be a bit of a hassle for that. Hmm.

You could become a necropolitan and spell-stitch yourself and use illusions to keep up appearances, it'll have you at least one level lower if not two than the party due to the XP burn of those. Or just consider the possibility for the future.

Draxar
2009-11-29, 03:15 PM
I must say, post-apocalypse is probably the best time to be a necromancer.

If you can get hold of the gems you need to raise your dead, then yes. If not, less so.


Need to take a feat in order to have an undead familiar first, I believe, and then you have to spend the XP in order to add the spell-stitched feat to the familiar. They can know some number of SLAs in relation to their wisdom stat.

Edit:

SLAs don't need the requisite casting stat. Or material components. Or XP components. Or focii. And having your familiar control them rather than you directly isn't that big of an inconvenience, especially at ECL 9ish.

The comment about treating Animate Dead as Divine was the fact that Ravens are wisdom 14. Wisdom 14 + spellstiched = 2 x level 3 spells, twice a day. To get level 4 spells, you need a wisdom of 15-16.


Corpsecrafter feats would be a bit of a hassle for that. Hmm.

You could become a necropolitan and spell-stitch yourself and use illusions to keep up appearances, it'll have you at least one level lower if not two than the party due to the XP burn of those.

... at which point, I may as well go Pale Master, accept 1 level of no spellcasting progression (which wouldn't be so bad if you got something at that level).

I'm not dead set against Pale master, I just dislike a class that, as well as having normal entry requirements, gives you a first level where you gain nothing at all.

All the suggestions people have made are good, but so far they're not beating two levels of Pale master as a way to do what I'm after.

Optimystik
2009-11-29, 03:58 PM
Archmage can give you any SLA you want. But since Animate Dead has a costly material component, it'll cost you 250xp per hit die.

Johel
2009-11-29, 04:00 PM
Not THE best way but if you aim for mindless undeads :

Mohrg
Create Spawn (Su)
Creatures killed by a mohrg rise after 1d4 days as zombies under the morhg’s control. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

There's no limit to the number of undeads a single Mohrg can control.
A Mohrg can be created with a CL 18 "Create Undead" spell.
It can then be charmed with a "Command Undead" spell.
The Mohrg has a Charisma of 10, so it shouldn't be difficult to win opposed charisma check to give him orders.

The Mohrg himself is CR8 and has no range attack so it's no big deal if he escapes your control. Just fly, cast a few spells and you're back in command.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-29, 04:11 PM
If you're willing to lose a level of Spellcasting, Dweomerkeeper from the Complete Divine Web Enhancement can make spells Su, as well as gaining some other incidental benefits.

Draxar
2009-11-29, 04:39 PM
If you're willing to lose a level of Spellcasting, Dweomerkeeper from the Complete Divine Web Enhancement can make spells Su, as well as gaining some other incidental benefits.

Oooh, shiny. Thank'ee muchly.

I'm already losing a casting level from Pale master. At least with this the loss is actually garnering me something useful (1st level Cleric spells, an insignificant rebuke, domain power). Makes it slightly more MAD, but not too much so.

Gets me the ability I'm after at 9th level, right on time, and I can probably find other ways to abuse the supernatural spell (if nothing else, the joy of free Magic Mouth's for all occasions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130674).

Overall, shiny, especially since it's a class I actually want to take beyond the minimum to get what I want.

Now to work out which Eberron god fits best for it...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-29, 04:43 PM
...Keep in mind that that's one of the most broken PRCs in the game. The 'incidental other stuff' I mentioned includes free metamagic. Your buff spells become non-dispellable, and stuff like Wish is free. Only use it if you're willing to voluntarily limit your power to avoid that.

Draxar
2009-11-29, 05:09 PM
...Keep in mind that that's one of the most broken PRCs in the game. The 'incidental other stuff' I mentioned includes free metamagic. Your buff spells become non-dispellable, and stuff like Wish is free. Only use it if you're willing to voluntarily limit your power to avoid that.

I'm willing to not over-optimise it. It may well get turned down by my DM, but I'm willing to just flat not learn spells that would break it (such as Wish, for instance). And I'm not going to be focusing that heavily on Metamagic, and there's a good chance I won't reach the end of the class anyway. I'm not sure how it gets free metamagic, unless you combine it with another feature to reduce metamagic level, as it says it can only take it to +1 lowest.

Mostly I just think I can make the flavour fit my concept, and the other abilities (mantle of spells) are also handy and fitting.

OldTrees
2009-11-29, 06:50 PM
I have found that using the Fell Animate metamagic feat combined with a 0th level damage spell like Acid Splash or Inflict Minor Wounds to fill your Animate Dead control pool works great. (note: you would be casting these spells on your down days)

Costs: 1 Metamagic feat, 1 3rd level spell slot
Lowest level: 5th

Add in Sanctum Spell metamagic feat and it only takes a 2nd level slot

Costs: 2 Metamagic feats, 1 2nd level spell slot
Lowest level: 3rd

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 07:18 PM
I have found that using the Fell Animate metamagic feat combined with a 0th level damage spell like Acid Splash or Inflict Minor Wounds to fill your Animate Dead control pool works great. (note: you would be casting these spells on your down days)

Costs: 1 Metamagic feat, 1 3rd level spell slot
Lowest level: 5th


I suggested that, but he doesn't want to raise them during a fight but after it for some reason.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-29, 07:24 PM
Maybe you can get a homebrewed Mark of Death, if it's in a post-apocalyptic Ebberon?

Draxar
2009-11-29, 07:25 PM
I have found that using the Fell Animate metamagic feat combined with a 0th level damage spell like Acid Splash or Inflict Minor Wounds to fill your Animate Dead control pool works great. (note: you would be casting these spells on your down days)

And finding the things to animate on my down days too?

The way I want to do things is kill stuff, stick it in a bag, then when I have the time and can do so subtly, clean it off, get rid of the smell, stick armour on it, animate it.

Plus, Fell Animate gets you zombies. Which are much less useful than skeletons, and much more stinky, defeating the 'not looking like undead' thing.


Add in Sanctum Spell metamagic feat and it only takes a 2nd level slot

Post apocalyptic game – no sanctum for me.


***

Another option I've just spotted is the Imbued Staff stuff from Dragon 338. Given the character doesn't really want a familiar anyway, it fits. The question is, does it do what I want it to, as the wording is a little strange:


Choose a spell that you are capable of casting of a level no higher than one below the highest level spell you can cast. Your imbued staff gains the ability to grant you this spell once per day as a spell like ability. While grasping your imbued staff, you may cast this spell as a standard action. The caster level and DC for this spell are calculated as if you had cast the spell yourself.

I think it still counts as spell like, and thus you ignore the material costs, but it's somewhat unclearly written. But the other version of that ability (give up a spell slot 2 lower than your highest or less to cast a particular spell of that level 3/day as a spell like) specifies that you still have to do the XP cost and/or costly materials, given that the above doesn't, I'd say you can assume it does ignore those costs.