PDA

View Full Version : Army Building



Beelzebub1111
2009-11-29, 04:38 PM
You have 300 CR worth of creatures to build your army, no one creature more than a CR 15. What's your list?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-29, 04:40 PM
Anything that can control othe creatures. Wightocalypse is great, but I'm also talking about Dominate, Planar Binding, and Animate Dead. That can break the CR limit fairly easily.

It would end up being 30 CR 10 creatures, FYI.

Oslecamo
2009-11-29, 04:55 PM
Anything that can control othe creatures. Wightocalypse is great, but I'm also talking about Dominate, Planar Binding, and Animate Dead. That can break the CR limit fairly easily.

It would end up being 30 CR 10 creatures, FYI.

I think that kinda breacks the fun of the challenge. How about limiting ourselves to creatures that cannot get minions of their own?

Innis Cabal
2009-11-29, 04:56 PM
Some wights. Some Shadows. What more do you need? Self propogating Undead make this sorta a crap shoot.

Yukitsu
2009-11-29, 05:00 PM
I'm going to assume that planar bound, simulacrums or additional undead all count towards the CR 300 cap, and that going above that means the universe collapses on you, thus preventing that mallarky. Also assuming epic and diefic ranks are banned.

That said, I'd go with vampire lord warblade 20, a pair of level 16 (IIRC) warchanters, a level 17 wizard and bunches of vampire warriors.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-29, 05:05 PM
That said, I'd go with vampire lord warblade 20, a pair of level 16 (IIRC) warchanters, a level 17 wizard and bunches of vampire warriors.

I think those are a little outside the CR15 cap.

I'd go with a Cabal of casters, mostly wizards but some divine to spice things up. 8th level's more than enough to rule the world. Then go mindganking on everyone else, why fight your own battles when you can just declare yourself the winner and write your own peace treaty with HUGE reperations in coke and hookers.

Yukitsu
2009-11-29, 05:08 PM
Missed a part. Oh well. Too tired to amend that when the lower level versions are doing the same things, but at lower levels.

Johel
2009-11-29, 05:27 PM
If we go for fluff :
Lantern Archons
CR 2 x 10 = CR 20
They'll act as messengers to coordinate everything, teleporting from one group to another.

Hound Archons
CR 4 x 20 = CR 80
They'll act as a rapid elite task force, teleporting whenever we need them, killing opportunity targets then retreating quickly.

Trumpet Archons
CR 14 x 4 = CR 56
They'll act as officers, overseeing the Hound Archons and providing powerful support.

Astral Deva Angel
CR 14 x 6 = CR 84
They'll act as über elite to take care of the "Big" problems

Since we are talking strict CR-limit and not LA or level-based prices, I'll take a crap load of Aasimars, of all classes, just for the fluff.
CR 1 to CR 15
How much fluff and how much "optimisation" you want will decide the exact composition. A fluffy army will be paladin-based while a optimized army will be wizard-based.
CR 45

Let's add 1 Half-Celestial Cloud Giant, because we don't get to see them that much and the "cloud" part fits. I would go for a 19 HD Half-Celestial something if there was anything below CR 11 that HAD 19HD.
CR 15

Beelzebub1111
2009-11-29, 05:33 PM
Not trying to cause a wightpocolypse or trying to break the system, Just a fun little exercise. and lets say that you're putting your Army against someone else's.

Here's my list, with Ranks:

15 Adult Red Dragon
-20 Fire Giants x2
-30 Fire Mephits x10
-30 Magma Mephits x10
15 Old White Dragon
-26 Ice Devil (Gelugon) x2
-60 Ice Mepghits x20
14 Mature Adult Black Dragon
-20 Rakshasa x2
-60 Ooze Mephits x20
300 = Total CR

FoE
2009-11-29, 05:38 PM
The largest harem of succubi, harpies and lamias outside of Graz'zt's grandest pleasure palace.

You never said what I had to use the army for. :smallamused:

Volkov
2009-11-29, 05:38 PM
One hundred forty three Ice devils. Who will promptly summon more devils. And you must fight them in the eighth hell.

Jaeger
2009-11-29, 06:39 PM
1200 kobolds all with bows. replacing alertness with pointblank shot, and taking a flaw to get rapidshot.

Our arrows will blot out the sun.:smallbiggrin:

Heliomance
2009-11-29, 06:50 PM
Multiple creatures with DR 10. They will fight in the shade.

Volkov
2009-11-29, 06:51 PM
1200 kobolds all with bows. replacing alertness with pointblank shot, and taking a flaw to get rapidshot.

Our arrows will blot out the sun.:smallbiggrin:

All of these would bounce off my ice devils, who would teleport inside your ranks, and cut them down.

Schylerwalker
2009-11-29, 08:27 PM
I think I'll go with 30 noble salamanders, who proceed to summon their fire elementals.

There are much more creative options, but I'm not feeling imaginative right now, and combined with dying computer and dinner about to happen... :smallamused:

Still...bring it, ice devils.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-29, 08:51 PM
Silly OP, spoiling all my fun, I was about to propose a Black Ethergaunt Incantatrix 283.:smallbiggrin:

World Eater
2009-11-29, 09:09 PM
2400 Rats.
I just hope some have diseases and plague.

Eldariel
2009-11-29, 10:29 PM
Lots of 12 HD Chokers with 15 levels of Cleric-casting. That's CR 14 I think (CR +2 for 8 extra Aberration HD, +1 for size increase, +6 for 12 unassociated class levels and +3 for 3 associated class levels). So 21 of them.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-29, 11:01 PM
I think the solution will ultimately involve abuse of the CR system. To move us in that direction, a Kobold Wizard 17 is CR 15(I think). 9th level spells. Who can do better?

golentan
2009-11-29, 11:19 PM
1 lvl 15 wizard to keep other wizards from killing them outright.

1140 kobolds, with dragonwrought in place of alertness.

Traps.

Win.

edit: Okay, to elaborate. My kobolds will make a craft check with a +1368 modifier, enabling them to make epic traps in single rounds with sufficient quick creation (+130 quick creation increments). We make it a proximity, automatic reset, hidden lock, search DC 0, massively high disable DC, never miss (onset delay 1 round), ranged attack trap (ballistas. Lots of 'em). This is all put on wheels. We now take a round to spin up our ballista things on our doom fortress (yes, that's what we're calling it) with the crew inside making repairs as necessary, adding traps to keep enemies out, and keeping an eye on the switch while the wizard puts everything in a permanent antimagic field. Then we trundle off to battle, dealing massive, massive damage to any foolish enough to challenge our supremacy who is non-epic (a few hundred d8 out to 1200 feet, until we work out a longer range weapon in round 2).

Yahzi
2009-11-30, 12:49 AM
20 15th level Druids.

Johel
2009-11-30, 05:12 AM
I think the solution will ultimately involve abuse of the CR system. To move us in that direction, a Kobold Wizard 17 is CR 15(I think). 9th level spells. Who can do better?

Unless I'm missing some source material, kobold aren't LA -2.
1 Level in a character class = CR+1.

Now, I can beat that, sure

1 Trap of PaO (CR 9)
2.910 bats (CR 1/10 x 2.910 = 291)

It will take 5 hours to transform the 2.910 bats into 2.910 dire bats.
Same Kingdom +5
Same Class +2
Same Intelligence +2
Permanent
It will take 5 more hours to transform the 2.910 dire bats into 2.910 manticores.
Same Kingdom +5
Same Class +2
Same Size +2
Permanent

Now, if people agree that Dragons are reptiles and if I have a few days to prepare, I can do a lot worse.
Bats => Rats (Kingdom, Class, Intelligence)
Rats => Lizards (Kingdom, Intelligence, Size)
Lizards => Monitor lizards (Kingdom, Class, Intelligence)
Monitor lizards => Silver Dragon Young (Kingdom, Class, Size)
Silver Dragon Young => White Dragon Wyrm (Kingdom, Class, Intelligence)
White Dragon Wyrm => Silver Dragon Ancient (Kingdom, Class, Size)
Silver Dragon Ancient => Red Dragon Great wyrm (Kingdom, Class, Intelligence)
Red Dragon Great wyrm => Gold Dragon Great wyrm (Kingdom, Class, Size)

2.910 Great Gold Wyrms beat 300 wizards, don't they ?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-30, 06:18 AM
36 Efreeti, and, oh, 24 kobolds.

108 Wish spells.

Start whatever abuse you need with simulacrum.

For added effect, use wishes to dominate the kobolds. On day 2-25, use kobolds to get another 3 wishes off of each efreet.

Total: 2592 additional wishes.

If you can't win with 100 wishes a day for most of a month? You don't deserve to win.

Volkov
2009-11-30, 07:08 AM
I think I'll go with 30 noble salamanders, who proceed to summon their fire elementals.

There are much more creative options, but I'm not feeling imaginative right now, and combined with dying computer and dinner about to happen... :smallamused:

Still...bring it, ice devils.

They're immune to fire. :P

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-30, 07:25 AM
They're immune to fire. :P

My Efreet have a way around that. Heh.

Grumman
2009-11-30, 07:34 AM
20 Clerics or Druids of Talos 5 / Stormlord 9 / Dragonslayer 1, with Pandemonic Silver spears. Open hostilities with Control Winds or Sandstorm, then either continue your magical bombardment or wade in with your best buffs.

Prime32
2009-11-30, 07:42 AM
For starters, I'd a include a Monster of legend Half-dragon Incarnate construct Effigy Tarrasque. Not as good as a real tarrasque but it still has 48HD, which are now 48 Dragon HD.

And since True Dragons are under-CRed, a few Multiheaded Ravenous dragons with the Strafing Breath feat should be able to wipe out enemy armies pretty quickly.

Oh, and a ghost wyrmling Wyrm of War force dragon. Good luck hurting that. :smalltongue:

For grunts, use dragonborn warforged barbarians with the Troll-Blooded feat.


Some druids would also come in handy for controlling the battlefield with weather effects, or summoning earth elementals to collapse the ground beneath them.

AslanCross
2009-11-30, 07:44 AM
I think I'll go with 30 noble salamanders, who proceed to summon their fire elementals.

There are much more creative options, but I'm not feeling imaginative right now, and combined with dying computer and dinner about to happen... :smallamused:

Still...bring it, ice devils.

Aren't Ice Devils immune to fire? Ironically they're actually not immune to cold.

Anyway, here's mine. Forget the cheese. This will probably still overrun many mundane armies. The Legion Devils will be very tough for regular humanoids to kill due to their DR, shared HP, and bonuses in large groups. The Bluespawn Godslayers are extremely powerful tanks, and along with the Malebranches, can crush large swathes of enemy infantry. The Ice Devils coordinate from behind and can use their at-wills to obliterate threats from any range. If ice doesn't work, the Mezzoloths can supply fire and chemical warfare (Produce Flame and Cloudkill).

The Erinyes and Abishai are a fast strike unit. Abishai are extremely difficult to kill and can mob the enemy, while the Erinyes can rain fiery arrows.

Almost all of the units have Summon Baatezu and can thus multiply, and all of them have DR.

High Command:
-1 Adult Blue Dragon (CR 14)
-2 Ice Devils (CR 13)
-2 Malebranches (CR 14)
Total CR: 68

3 Shock Trooper Squads:
-2 Bluespawn Godslayer (CR 10)
-2 Mezzoloths (CR 6)
Total CR: 32 each squad

Air Support:
-4 Blue Abishai (CR 7)
-6 Erinyes (CR 8)
Total CR: 76

Grunts:
-20 Legion Devils (CR 3 each)
Total CR: 60

Radiun
2009-11-30, 08:39 AM
Any wealth guidelines?
Because I'd take 1200 kobolds, each with epic Pun-pun level gear

Beelzebub1111
2009-11-30, 10:52 AM
Any wealth guidelines?
Because I'd take 1200 kobolds, each with epic Pun-pun level gear
How about wealth by level guidlines?

I really wasn't looking for ways to break the system, I was actually thinking of using this as a concept for a Warhammer-like wargaming. It was supposed to be an exercise in flavor and fun.

root9125
2009-11-30, 11:46 AM
How about wealth by level guidlines?

I really wasn't looking for ways to break the system, I was actually thinking of using this as a concept for a Warhammer-like wargaming. It was supposed to be an exercise in flavor and fun.

Try Heroes of Battle. It has pre-made armies, and mechanics for keeping huge combats from being REALLY absurdly long, such that this might take 12 hours instead of 100.

AslanCross
2009-11-30, 04:47 PM
How about wealth by level guidlines?

I really wasn't looking for ways to break the system, I was actually thinking of using this as a concept for a Warhammer-like wargaming. It was supposed to be an exercise in flavor and fun.

Applying WBL is a good idea in this case. The default reaction of some people is "make an army that can gate-chain" and things like that. :smallannoyed:

There was actually a thread like this in the past that had fairly solid rules for building an army including wealth management and logistics. However, it seems to have been lost.

EDIT: Ah, here it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37056) Good thing I pasted it into my OneNote.



Try Heroes of Battle. It has pre-made armies, and mechanics for keeping huge combats from being REALLY absurdly long, such that this might take 12 hours instead of 100.

I thought HoB's advice was to NOT run large scale combat but focus the attention on the PCs by sending them on important missions.
I like the book, but sometimes people actually want a war game and not an RPG set in a war.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-30, 04:52 PM
In which case you shouldn't play D&D. It's not designed for it, and trying to is a bad idea.

Schylerwalker
2009-11-30, 05:01 PM
Ice Devils are immune to fire (and poison) and have resistance to cold 10.

...


:smallmad:

Who wrote up this bloody monster!? Was it bring your kid to work day?!

Thatguyoverther
2009-11-30, 05:04 PM
Two hundred zombies, some wizards to cover them with explosive runes and a level one commoner with a spy glass.

hamishspence
2009-11-30, 05:05 PM
Given that Caina (supposedly their home) does 3d10 cold damage per round- this suggests that the term "ice devil" is a bit of a misnomer, when they can't survive long exposure without shelter, on their own icy plane.

Nero24200
2009-11-30, 05:32 PM
I think this is quite a fun idea, then again I've always been a fan of games like Warhammer.

I'd probably make several armies given the chance, but off the top of my head...

5 Maruts, use their SLA's and have them act as the "all-purpose" unit, since they'll have a fair degree of mobiltiy and battle-field control as well as moderate damage output (not alot, but still enough to count). The circle of death SLA will come in useful against mobs, like the 1200 kobold army (DR 15 FTW). 75 points

1 Warforged Artificer to lead the mob. Have him act as your standard buffer/blaster/batman when needed (relaying alot on scrolls but on infusions as well since it's mostly a construct army). Make him level 15. 15 points.

10 Sheild Guardians. All 10 will protect the leader, with at least one constantly using Sheild Other. 80 points.

5 Maruts. Have them use their SLA to find and ambush foes as well as take out the lesser ones with Circle of Death. 75 points

20 Zelekhuts, have them act in a similar way to the Maruts, but rely a little more on grouping since they aren't as strong. 180 points

20 Warforged Chargers. Pretty straighforward tactics, just charge. 100 points

80 Warforged (1st Level Warriors). They'll act as the standard fodder. Against bigger creatures, their job will be to tie them up fo rthe Maruts and Zelekhuts to move in. 40 Points

20 Warforged Scouts (1st Level Warriors). Have them act as scouts and aim for the less-powerful foes. 10 points

golentan
2009-11-30, 08:46 PM
Given that Caina (supposedly their home) does 3d10 cold damage per round- this suggests that the term "ice devil" is a bit of a misnomer, when they can't survive long exposure without shelter, on their own icy plane.

Longer than you, meatling.

Doing an actual army rather than a cheese-fest victory? I'd probably hit a whole bunch of kobolds still, with some elephant cavalry to back them up if I can purchase them at listed prices rather than using CR points to bring it in. And air support in the form of Soarwhales (same deal) or dragons, with tons of rocks to bombard.

Knaight
2009-11-30, 09:13 PM
Ice Devils are immune to fire (and poison) and have resistance to cold 10.

...


:smallmad:

Who wrote up this bloody monster!? Was it bring your kid to work day?!

All devils are immune to poison and fire, thus the ice is what differentiates the Ice devils from the others.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-30, 09:38 PM
A) A Kobold Adept 4 is CR 1 and has 2nd-level spells. Useful for fodder.
B) Ur-Priest 9 gives 9th-level spells for a mere +4.5 CR, if we can stick those levels as unassociated levels on some monster with feats to spare.
C) That Damn Crab might be worth looking into. Also stack as many +0 CR templates as is plausible.

Will look into these further.

AslanCross
2009-12-01, 03:54 AM
Given that Caina (supposedly their home) does 3d10 cold damage per round- this suggests that the term "ice devil" is a bit of a misnomer, when they can't survive long exposure without shelter, on their own icy plane.

They still do have a metric ton of At-Will ice-descriptor (Sp)s, though. But yeah, one would expect them to be immune to cold.