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rezplz
2009-11-29, 08:09 PM
Now I'm sure that for an optimized party of adventurers, with a full arcane and full divine caster, a tarrasque would be no big problem. But I'm currently DMing for a party of non-optimized players (which is finally getting close to the big bad. We only get to play on breaks from school since everyone's off at college...), and they're currently at the highest level we've ever been, which is 14th. They still have a bit of leveling to do, so what I need to know is what level should they be where they could survive a fight with the tarrasque?


Here are the players in the group.

-A dwarven mystic theurge who focuses on damage spells and being a healbot.

-A tank-focused fighter who doesn't like to use power attack and passed on a +4 greatsword in order to keep her +2 defending greatsword. I think she ended up selling the +4 sword to increase the enchantment on her +2 defending sword... ((To be fair she's probably playing this character because in the past all of the critical hits tend to be rolled against her, and nobody else.))

-A rogue that is less combat focused, and more skill-focused. Something about trying to play a character that overcomes combat by doing clever stuff and not just stabbing everything. I'm actually happy that he's doing this character because if he wanted to I'm sure he could be plenty better than everyone else and outshine everybody.

-A monk. Yeeeaahhh... Not much to say here.

-A chaotic evil raptoran ranger with two levels of fighter, focusing on ranged combat. This is probably the most optimized character in the entire group, and for his first time actually optimizing stuff he didn't do a bad job. He's currently armed with a +1 seeking frost fire shock composite longbow. Due to a houserule he doesn't get unlimited flying until level 15, which he gets next level.


If I need to I'm willing to give a few tips to them to give them a better chance when they do get to the tarrasque, the boss-before-the-final-boss. I don't want to kill them, I just want to make it a great fight.


Also: How would it change things if the tarrasque was flying as with the fly spell, and invisible as with the greater invisibility spell?



Edit: I was originally going to completely surprise them with the tarrasque, but on second thought I'll have to give them a bit of warning so that the theurge can prepare different spells than normal.

I also forgot to mention that while they're at level 14 right now, I expect them to level a few times before the tarrasque, so they'd probably be at 17-18 when the fight came around. You know the whole stereotypical climb-through-a-tower-with-a-boss-fight-at-every-floor kind of thing.

So theoretically They'd get warning now (level 14) and have three-or-four levels to gain while they kill stuff and prepare.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 08:18 PM
Beat Tarrasque or kill it?
Wish is needed to kill it, but you can beat it with a successful planeshift to elemental plane of water (drowning it forever till removed from plane).

Do they have fly spells?

Chrono22
2009-11-29, 08:20 PM
It depends on if the party is prepared for it, or has previous knowledge about their opponent.
Either the spells will result in a TPK, or they won't make a difference.

...
Judging by your party composition, I doubt they'd be able to defeat the Tarrasque even as level 20 characters. Maybe they could pull it off with DM fiat or some D.E.M., but otherwise, no.

arguskos
2009-11-29, 08:24 PM
Uh... given that party... I think they're probably doomed unless they're around level 18 and very, very, VERY clever. Let's break it down.

-Dwarf Blasty Healbot Theurge: Probably useless, unless he comes with buffs prep'd for the fight.
-Tank Fighter: Dead meat, unless she can absorb 80-120+ damage every round. It WILL hit her, it WILL eat her, and it WILL hurt.
-Rogue: Um, depends on how creative he gets really. He might have something useful to do, so he might be screwed.
-Monk: Dead.
-Raptoran: Sadly, also probably useless.

The party, put together, might be able to beat it's regen for a short period of time, but as soon as someone dies, they all die. Unless they bring a large force of powerful folks, some dragons, or a posse of hardcore outsiders, I think that party might be screwed.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 08:33 PM
Now, now a Flying Archer is pretty good against a non-flying Mr. T, but the question is what caster is the fly spell on Mr. T?

Caster could dispel it if within his level. More than likely due to Mr. T's SR, it is a potion meaning caster will be 5 (easy to dispel, hopefully caster has 1 prepared).

Blasting Mr. T is hard due to SR.

arguskos
2009-11-29, 08:35 PM
Blasting Mr. T is hard due to SR.
Blasting Mr. T is impossible, due to Carapace. Does no one remember he HAS that thing?

Also, unless that archer can reliably put out 50 or more damage in a round, he's not gonna be an issue. Just sayin', the Tarrasque is fairly difficult to kill for your average party, which this appears to be.

Chrono22
2009-11-29, 08:42 PM
Not to mention, the Tarrasque's Rush ability gives him a whopping +56 bonus on jump checks. Combine that with a running start, a strength score of 45, and vertical reach... and even the archer might get devoured, unless he's shooting at it from more than 100 feet.
Or it could just throw buildings at the puny winged-bird-meat until it dies.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 08:42 PM
Blasting Mr. T is impossible, due to Carapace. Does no one remember he HAS that thing?

Also, unless that archer can reliably put out 50 or more damage in a round, he's not gonna be an issue. Just sayin', the Tarrasque is fairly difficult to kill for your average party, which this appears to be.

Fireball isn't a ray, line, or cone. Neither is it magic missile.

Carapace just means no Scorching ray, disintegrate, etc. Ionic spells like Fireball are best at getting past it. Drawback SR 32 will mean even assuming SP and Greater SP (giving +4 to bypass SR) he will likely be at caster 11 meaning +15 vs 32= needs a 17 to bypass.

There are some + bypass SR spells in spell compendruim (Array Resistance), but unlikely unoptimized guy will have those.

awa
2009-11-29, 08:46 PM
ninja
due to your house rule he cant fly indefinitely also if hes not careful the big guys got a great jump check between his high strength and his once a minute rush and his long arms he could easily catch an unprepared character right out of the air.

its also got an int of 3 which means its smarter then an animal so he might be able to realize that he can whip trees, boulders and other improvised weapons at the flying archer (assuming he decides to deal with the archer at all).

arguskos
2009-11-29, 08:47 PM
Fireball isn't a ray, line, or cone. Neither is it magic missile.

Carapace just means no Scorching ray, disintegrate, etc. Ionic spells like Fireball are best at getting past it. Drawback SR 32 will mean even assuming SP and Greater SP (giving +4 to bypass SR) he will likely be at caster 11 meaning +15 vs 32= needs a 17 to bypass.

There are some + bypass SR spells in spell compendruim (Array Resistance), but unlikely unoptimized guy will have those.
So, the best blasts pound for pound don't affect him? Oh, yes, blasting is gonna be GREAT against his 858 hp. :smalltongue: It's basically pointless. You know that as well as I do. Also, Magic Missile is specifically called out by the carapace ability. :smalltongue:

Seriously, DM Man, your party is doooooooooomed, with all the "ooooooooooo"'s you can muster.

awa
2009-11-29, 08:49 PM
hes also immune to fire so fireball wont work

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 08:52 PM
So, the best blasts pound for pound don't affect him? Oh, yes, blasting is gonna be GREAT against his 858 hp. :smalltongue: It's basically pointless. You know that as well as I do. Also, Magic Missile is specifically called out by the carapace ability. :smalltongue:

Seriously, DM Man, your party is doooooooooomed, with all the "ooooooooooo"'s you can muster.

Which is why I said neither is fireball magic missile (which is not allowed by carapace). He could use energy substitution to make the fireball (Cold).

Hey, use enough fireballs (assuming he finds a way to get pass SR with his low caster) he will defeat his hp.
Maybe he has acid fog? That has no SR, deals damage, and will slow the creature (acts like solid fog). Also not a ray, line, cone or magic missile. :smallbiggrin:

Granted, Acid fog is battle field control not blasty so unlikely to prepare it.

Edit: I assume the archer will pepper him full of arrows and rogue will tanglefoot bag or net Mr. T so he will stay in place.

Not sure what beatsticks will do, but attacking Mr.T in the face with your fist or sword is a poor plan unless Leap attacking.

cupkeyk
2009-11-29, 08:53 PM
the mystic theurge can do it alone. summon/create shadows and harrass the tarrasque into a coma, coup de grace at leisure.

Levithix
2009-11-29, 08:55 PM
You might be good to give a few of the enemies they fight before it useful gear like scrolls of assay spell resistance and +5 magical beast bane weapon (to overcome dr)

Also, I can't remember where its from or if it only works on trolls. But there is an alchemical item that suppresses regen.

arguskos
2009-11-29, 08:55 PM
Which is why I said neither is fireball magic missile (which is not allowed by carapace). He could use energy substitution to make the fireball (Cold).

Hey, use enough fireballs (assuming he finds a way to get pass SR with his low caster) he will defeat his hp.
Maybe he has acid fog? That has no SR, deals damage, and will slow the creature (acts like solid fog). Also not a ray, line, cone or magic missile. :smallbiggrin:

Granted, Acid fog is battle field control not blasty so unlikely to prepare it.
Also, he's immune to fire. :smalltongue:

As for Acid Fog, I think Big T can move out of that in a single round, since he's bigger than the cloud is. :smalleek: And if he isn't, then ok, we found a decent idea there. Bombard him with hordes and hordes of face-melting acid fogs? Oi, that just SOUNDS like a plan doomed to failure.

awa
2009-11-29, 08:55 PM
shadows cant hurt the trasque its immune to ability damage

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 08:58 PM
Gain control over a Allip?
Granted, I'm not sure how to get one.

Mr. T isn't immune to Ability drain; he is only immune to Ability damage.

awa
2009-11-29, 08:59 PM
hell still regenerate the acid its only like 2d6 a round sure it hurts him but not enough

AslanCross
2009-11-29, 08:59 PM
Which is why I said neither is fireball magic missile (which is not allowed by carapace). He could use energy substitution to make the fireball (Cold).

Hey, use enough fireballs (assuming he finds a way to get pass SR with his low caster) he will defeat his hp.
Maybe he has acid fog? That has no SR, deals damage, and will slow the creature (acts like solid fog). Also not a ray, line, cone or magic missile. :smallbiggrin:

Granted, Acid fog is battle field control not blasty so unlikely to prepare it.

It's still just an average of 35 damage at maximum level. Delayed Blast Fireball or some other Metamagic trick will probably give it a more respectable punch, but Big T's just going to regenerate that back. They have to be very creative to kill this guy, but since the only caster is a Mystic Theurge, he's going to be rather low on CL.

The party has chosen the path of defeat. Best bet, IMO, is finding a way to drop something really big onto the Tarrasque and running away.


the mystic theurge can do it alone. summon/create shadows and harrass the tarrasque into a coma, coup de grace at leisure.

You can only coup de grace a regenerating creature with something that deals lethal damage to it (Fire vs Troll, for example). Unfortunately, nothing deals lethal damage to a Tarrasque.



A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.


No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque.

awa
2009-11-29, 09:00 PM
that's what shadows do ability damage

edit oh i see you were talking about the alip yeah assuming the trasque dosnt kill it before it gets his first attack with an attack of opportunity it will be able to weaken him but probably only once then hell kill it.
so if you could get 4 or 5 alips you might be able to win

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 09:05 PM
How does Mr. T hurt an incorporeal creature? It isn't like he has Greater Magic fang on him.
He doesn't have a magic weapon listed.

rezplz
2009-11-29, 09:05 PM
I was originally going to completely surprise them with the tarrasque, but on second thought I'll have to give them a bit of warning so that the theurge can prepare different spells than normal.

I also forgot to mention that while they're at level 14 right now, I expect them to level a few times before the tarrasque, so they'd probably be at 17-18 when the fight came around. You know the whole stereotypical climb-through-a-tower-with-a-boss-fight-at-every-floor kind of thing. My group tends to get combat done relatively quickly compared to other stuff so that should rapidly increase the pace that they'd level at.



Starbuck_II: Beat it is all they need to do. So a plane shift would work, but it's an 8th level spell if I remember correctly. Gonna be a while til the theurge can cast that. Unless if one of them suddenly dies and rolls up a full caster. I think the dwarf knows fly though.

As for the caster level? Well the tarrasque would actually be a wizard polymorphed INTO a tarrasque. Normally impossible and against the rules, I know, but it would be justified by plot that I've already laid out. So the wizard would have cast invisibility and fly before turning into the tarrasque. Assuming I decided to go that route.


arguskos:At level 13 and before getting fire, frost, and shock enchanted on his +1 seeking bow he was reliably doing 30-40 damage per round. Since the new enchantements and he'll be leveling up a bit, 50 damage/round shouldn't be hard at all for him to do.

Chrono22: Other than the huge tower they start in, they'll be on a plane with nothing but flat ground and air. So mister T will have nothing to throw at the archer, but the jumping may be a problem.

rezplz
2009-11-29, 09:08 PM
The party has chosen the path of defeat. Best bet, IMO, is finding a way to drop something really big onto the Tarrasque and running away.





Me and the guy playing the rogue did once brainstorm a way to kill things by dropping elephants onto them... If they try to pull those shenanigans I may very well let it work if it's creative enough.

awa
2009-11-29, 09:09 PM
he has damage reduction epic if i recall correctly his natural attack should count as epic magical weapons so should be able to hit 50% of the time.

also if the archer was doing that damage vie multiple attacks the trasques does have damage reduction epic 15

sofawall
2009-11-29, 09:11 PM
At level 13...he was reliably doing 30-40 damage per round.

I'm reliably doing that at level 6 (and could be doing it sooner). What is up with your party?

EDIT: Awa, it can only have its weapon treated as Epic for the purpose of overcoming DR.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 09:12 PM
he has damage reduction epic if i recall correctly his natural attack should count as epic magical weapons so should be able to hit 50% of the time.

That isn't how DR works. Your natural attacks count for bypassing DR. They never actually become magic (or Epic in case but I'm not sure if there are super incorporeals only hit 50% of time by non-epic weapons).

Otherwise Ki Strike (magic) would allow monks to have +1 unarmed strikes. But they don't. They (monks) can't hurt incorporeals with their fist unless Necklace of might fist, etc. It just lets a monk bypass DR/magic.

AslanCross
2009-11-29, 09:13 PM
Me and the guy playing the rogue did once brainstorm a way to kill things by dropping elephants onto them... If they try to pull those shenanigans I may very well let it work if it's creative enough.

Poor elephants. ): Remember that you can't summon nonflying creatures into thin air, though.


he has damage reduction epic if i recall correctly his natural attack should count as epic magical weapons so should be able to hit 50% of the time.

also if the archer was doing that damage vie multiple attacks the trasques does have damage reduction epic 15

Indeed, the Tarrasque's natural weapons count as epic weapons.


That isn't how DR works. Your natural attacks count for bypassing DR. They never actually become magic.

Otherwise Ki Strike (magic) would allow monks to have +1 unarmed strikes. But they don't. They (monks) can't hurt incorporeals with their fist unless Necklace of might fist, etc. It just lets a monk bypass DR/magic.

As a matter of fact, they do.


A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

See: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction

The same entry also says creatures with DR/Magic have attacks that count as magic weapons.

rezplz
2009-11-29, 09:14 PM
I'm reliably doing that at level 6 (and could be doing it sooner). What is up with your party?

They've never really cared about optimizing before. The ranger was that player's first attempt at any kind of optimization for a ranged fighter-type. We're much more of a casual group.


awa: Ah, forgot about that damage reduction. Yeah, that would change things a bit then... I might have to house-rule a nerf for that or just not do the tarrasque at all. Maybe find something else for the boss-wizard to polymorph into that's more beatable for them.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 09:16 PM
Indeed, the Tarrasque's natural weapons count as epic weapons.



As a matter of fact, they do.



See: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction

The same entry also says creatures with DR/Magic have attacks that count as magic weapons.

FOR BYPASSING DR.
Repeat that in your mind please.
FOR BYPASSING DR.
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

They are never actually magic for purposes of incorporeals.

arguskos
2009-11-29, 09:16 PM
rezplz, can your archer ALSO hit AC 35 all the time? Dealing that much? To a creature immune to fire? :smallamused: Just sayin' here. You may wish to start dropping hints now so they can start building towards Tarrasque killing in 3-4 levels.

awa
2009-11-29, 09:19 PM
oh wait i see what your saying but do any other natural attacks say they count specifically as magic weapons? i Think the incorporeal text is supposed to be including them.

rezplz
2009-11-29, 09:20 PM
Poor elephants. ): Remember that you can't summon nonflying creatures into thin air, though.



Yeah, the way we decided to do it was by the teleport spell. I don't believe there's anything in the teleport spell that says you can't teleport into the air, right?

arguskos: Currently... I'd say he could hit AC 35 about 30-40% of the time. Which might not be enough. The dropping of hints might be needed then. XD

sofawall
2009-11-29, 09:24 PM
oh wait i see what your saying but do any other natural attacks say they count specifically as magic weapons? i Think the incorporeal text is supposed to be including them.

They only ever count for bypassing DR.

Maybe it is referring to a natural attack with the Magic Fang spell?

arguskos
2009-11-29, 09:24 PM
Yeah, the way we decided to do it was by the teleport spell. I don't believe there's anything in the teleport spell that says you can't teleport into the air, right?

arguskos: Currently... I'd say he could hit AC 35 about 30-40% of the time. Which might not be enough. The dropping of hints might be needed then. XD
Yeaaaaaaaaah. Given the rest of the group, which doesn't seem that well put together honestly, you probably need to give them some good forewarning. Especially with the Monk and Rogue, both of whom may be more than somewhat useless with some good planning.

ericgrau
2009-11-29, 09:26 PM
Mr T is immune to ability damage. Seriously, does anyone ever read his entry?

You're sending an unoptimized level 14 party against a CR 20 encounter? At least give them a couple more levels, then it might be an even fight with some clever planning.

The tarrasque does ~50 damage on a single attack or ~200 damage on a full attack since his crazy high BAB let's him power attack for a bunch and still auto-hit except on a 1. The fighter and ranger could actually outpace his 40 HP regeneration if Mr T didn't have DR 15/epic and immunity to most energy types, but his 858 HP means they'll be dead before they can wittle him down. SR:yes spells will almost never break both his SR and will save. A DC 20 listen check to pinpoint an attacking or otherwise highly active foe (cake for Mr T) plus blind fight can catch invisible foes well enough.

In spite of all the nay saying about being able to avoid Mr T with a fly spell or etc. so he's over CR'ed, rarely do people post a way to harm him that actually works. Or else the usual solution is extra books he wasn't designed to handle. Your group, OTOH, is screwed. Their best option is to run away. Forget fly, Mr T wasn't even meant to catch far away creatures on foot. If you wanna run and you're not yet engaged (leaving you open to a rush) you can. Then maybe the PCs can lead Mr T into some kind of MacGuffin. But a straight fight at their level is right out.

Stormthorn
2009-11-29, 09:28 PM
hell still regenerate the acid its only like 2d6 a round sure it hurts him but not enough

What if we submerge him and quintuple the damage.

Turn the gorund underneath him to mud and then back into stone and leave, claiming a job well done?

I like that you have a monk. I have a friend who plays Monk just to screw the whole optimization mindset over.

ericgrau
2009-11-29, 09:31 PM
Transmute mud to rock allows a reflex save that Mr T can easily pass and makes soft stone. The strength DC to break free can't be all that high. Mr T has 45 strength.

awa
2009-11-29, 09:33 PM
does immunity ability damage also give you immunity ability drain i thought they were different things

rezplz
2009-11-29, 09:35 PM
ericgrau: I suppose I should have also mentioned in the first post that they will level up a few times before actually fighting the tarrasque. I plan on them being level 17-18 when they fight the big T, and I'm just wondering if that'll be enough, or if I should let them level up more, or scrap the idea entirely.

sofawall
2009-11-29, 09:36 PM
Or else the usual solution is extra books he wasn't designed to handle.

When do people mention third party boo- wait... That said something different when I hit the quote button. You have some ninja editting skills.

awa
2009-11-29, 09:37 PM
by level 18 its hard but doable but it's largely going to be a battle of trying to avoid melee combat as long as possible because the trasques full attack is just to devastating

ericgrau
2009-11-29, 09:37 PM
ericgrau: I suppose I should have also mentioned in the first post that they will level up a few times before actually fighting the tarrasque. I plan on them being level 17-18 when they fight the big T, and I'm just wondering if that'll be enough, or if I should let them level up more, or scrap the idea entirely.

In theory CR 20 is a difficult but plenty doable fight for a 4 person level 17-18 party. For that party, even with 5 people, I dunno. Look at their spell selection, AB and damage output, estimate what they'll be in the future and see what you think. Mr T's damage output probably remains about the same. Some will save spells will get through his SR and saves now, but not many.

Letting them plan ahead will help.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 09:43 PM
does immunity ability damage also give you immunity ability drain i thought they were different things

No, they are different. Allips kick Mr. T's butt.

Chrono22
2009-11-29, 09:49 PM
I recall there was a way to beat the tarrasque that involved four level 1 cowboys.
Anyone got a link to that thread?

Haberdashery
2009-11-29, 09:49 PM
I'm sorry, I'm trying to read this thread, but all I keep thinking is this.

http://files.myopera.com/edwardpiercy/files/Mr-T-1.jpg

Chrono22
2009-11-29, 10:01 PM
Found it dudes:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-102922.html
Once he's been hogtied, it's a simple matter of GDGing many times a round with a scythe and convincing some caster to wish it dead.

Mikeavelli
2009-11-29, 10:14 PM
No, they are different. Allips kick Mr. T's butt.

They're different for thought exercises about beating the Tarrasque and throwing around conversation on message boards, but if you actually tried it in game, chances are pretty good you'd get a couple D20's thrown at you.

It's sorta've like Pun-Pun that way.

ericgrau
2009-11-29, 10:19 PM
I thought he was just talking theory anyway. The madness that grants allips wis drain means they wouldn't care about going after the tarrasque. They want to harass other creatures.

Oh, and to the OP DM I think the PCs defenses and versatility won't do much vs. the tarrasque, so they're probably on par with a party about 2-3 levels lower for this fight. So maybe it's doable with a lot of planning on level 18 if they play it smart. But if you want something specific or more accurate you'll have to look at their stats and options and figure it out.

Eldariel
2009-11-29, 10:35 PM
I thought he was just talking theory anyway. The madness that grants allips wis drain means they wouldn't care about going after the tarrasque. They want to harass other creatures.

Oh, and to the OP DM I think the PCs defenses and versatility won't do much vs. the tarrasque, so they're probably on par with a party about 2-3 levels lower for this fight. So maybe it's doable with a lot of planning on level 18 if they play it smart. But if you want something specific or more accurate you'll have to look at their stats and options and figure it out.

Locate an Allip, Control Undead on an Allip, Teleport to Big T, watch the fireworks. Feel free to make use of Walls of Force and similars to keep it from escaping as its mind is leeched away. Doable on level 13 with knowledge of its existence; given that Big T makes quite a bit of ruckus when active, that shouldn't be a problem.

awa
2009-11-29, 11:06 PM
its actually a knowledge check based on his hit die and unless they really focus on knowledge arcane they will never be able to figure it out.

I would also point out that normally i dislike the fact that really high hit die creatures are so hard to identify i imagine the way to kill the trasqu should be virtual unknown or some one would have done it.

awa
2009-11-29, 11:08 PM
looks like dc 58 to know anything at all one piece of useful information for every 5 points you beat the dc by.

rockdeworld
2009-11-29, 11:48 PM
Reverse Gravity/Prismatic Wall and/or Trap the Soul w/ trigger object? The second would make for an interesting plot wherein the PCs have to learn the creature's name.

Put a portable hole into a bag of holding near it?

Sovereign glue it to the ground (while it's asleep?)?

This is interesting - I've never really thought about how to beat a tarrasque before.

Eldariel
2009-11-30, 12:29 AM
Bleh, Plane Shifting it to Positive Energy Plane is one of the more secure ways of killing it, though it does mean you better have protections in case things go awry. The good news is that Big T really has little on Invisibility (Scent and that's it) so under Greater Invisibility with Flyby Attack and Overland Flight, you should have a decent shot at it without dying; if you have access to Contingency, there's little to no risk. Its SR is only 32 and Will-save only 20, so a Transmuter Wizard 14 could stand a chance; by then you'd want to have Greater Spell Penetration and 1 levels of Loremaster to use Beads of Karma and the Orange Prism Ioun Stone.

You can also have that one level of Archmage for Arcane Reach. I'd say +6 Int item is also affordable probably giving you 29. Since you went Archmage you might just have Spell Focus Transmutation. This gives you save DC around 27; not amazing, but there's a decent chance of it succeeding. And yeah, Knowledge-checks on it are like to fail without work but there's Contact Other Plane, Commune, Legend Lore and similar divinations to dig information about it.

Mahtobedis
2009-11-30, 01:53 AM
Isn't there a spell in frostburn that does 3d6 dex damage with no saves? Wouldn't a couple of those connecting with Mr. Terrasque disable it?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-30, 01:56 AM
Isn't there a spell in frostburn that does 3d6 dex damage with no saves? Wouldn't a couple of those connecting with Mr. Terrasque disable it?

Immune to ability damage. No dice.

Augmented Lurk
2009-11-30, 03:04 AM
That isn't how DR works. Your natural attacks count for bypassing DR. They never actually become magic (or Epic in case but I'm not sure if there are super incorporeals only hit 50% of time by non-epic weapons).

Otherwise Ki Strike (magic) would allow monks to have +1 unarmed strikes. But they don't. They (monks) can't hurt incorporeals with their fist unless Necklace of might fist, etc. It just lets a monk bypass DR/magic.


FOR BYPASSING DR.
Repeat that in your mind please.
FOR BYPASSING DR.
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

They are never actually magic for purposes of incorporeals.


Actually, according to the revised incorporeal subtype (which is found in the Tome of Battle for some reason), creatures who's natural attacks count as magic weapons for overcoming damage reduction can affect incorporeal creatures.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-30, 03:43 AM
Actually, according to the revised incorporeal subtype (which is found in the Tome of Battle for some reason), creatures who's natural attacks count as magic weapons for overcoming damage reduction can affect incorporeal creatures.

Actually, the version in the TOB explicitly states: "Use this version for the maneuver", which would imply that it isn't necessarily used for other incorporeals.

However, upon researching this lead, TOB also explicitly refers to MM3 as providing an UPDATE for the Incorporeal subtype. The incorporeal subtype there is identical to TOB. Since it's explicitly stated to supercede the PHB/SRD version, it does.

So yeah, monks can hit ghosts now.

Hooray for stealth updates. Not just for psionics, it seems.

EnnPeeCee
2009-11-30, 03:45 AM
No. Nononono. You're crazy. There is no way our group has any chance against one of those. It'll end up being one of three things:
1. TPK
2. We run away and tell you to make a better campaign
3. We find some ridiculously easy way to kill it, and you get mad about your boss not getting a chance to fight back

PS. If you didn't want me reading this, too late. :smallredface:
PPS. I'm not going to mention this to any of the other players, in case you want to go through with your insane plan.

Hallavast
2009-11-30, 04:47 AM
No. Nononono. You're crazy. There is no way our group has any chance against one of those. It'll end up being one of three things:
1. TPK
2. We run away and tell you to make a better campaign
3. We find some ridiculously easy way to kill it, and you get mad about your boss not getting a chance to fight back

PS. If you didn't want me reading this, too late. :smallredface:
PPS. I'm not going to mention this to any of the other players, in case you want to go through with your insane plan.

ROFL.

That is all. Thank you.

Killer Angel
2009-11-30, 05:30 AM
So theoretically They'd get warning now (level 14) and have three-or-four levels to gain while they kill stuff and prepare.

Even so, i fear that they will be beaten horribly. Big T is not strong, if you face him correctly, but this group is decisely not builded for such a challenge.

Now I'm stepping out of line, but can't you think about a different thing? for example, they should find the Big T BEFORE he will awake. Destroy his egg, restor the Sigil that keep him improsoned or something similar.
Then, put against them the Cult of the Destroyer, that wants to see Big T in action...

lord_khaine
2009-11-30, 05:33 AM
Go with a big dragon instead, its traditional.

Longcat
2009-11-30, 05:38 AM
I wonder why noone hasn't mentioned the Candle of Invocation yet.

Sure, it's lame, but not as lame as DM fiat.

Prime32
2009-11-30, 05:42 AM
I suggest giving the group some powerful buffs before they head in (blessings from a god, that kind of thing).



Even so, i fear that they will be beaten horribly. Big T is not strong, if you face him correctly, but this group is decisely not builded for such a challenge.

Now I'm stepping out of line, but can't you think about a different thing? for example, they should find the Big T BEFORE he will awake. Destroy his egg, restor the Sigil that keep him improsoned or something similar.
Then, put against them the Cult of the Destroyer, that wants to see Big T in action...They're fighting a wizard who transformed into a tarrasque. An invisible, flying tarrasque with 9th-level spells. :smalleek:

Killer Angel
2009-11-30, 05:48 AM
They're fighting a wizard who transformed into a tarrasque. An invisible, flying tarrasque with 9th-level spells.

I missed that part... :smalleek:

Who mentioned the candle of invocation? Seems a good plan... :smallwink:

Shyftir
2009-11-30, 05:49 AM
Offer them a chance to read up on tarasque and a chance to retrain at some point afterward. Might get the theurge up to enough power to help.

Let them discover a MacGuffin, never tell them what it's good for, make it able to force ANYTHING back to its original form. Make it suitably difficult to figure this out. When they figure it out, still a high level wizard to fight. This also feels very epic fantasy-like without being a total dues ex machina.

Nightson
2009-11-30, 05:52 AM
Why use the tarrasque out of the book? Design a monster to provide a fun and interesting fight while remaining loosely connected to the tarrasque mechanics and then use that.

AslanCross
2009-11-30, 05:58 AM
FOR BYPASSING DR.
Repeat that in your mind please.
FOR BYPASSING DR.
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

They are never actually magic for purposes of incorporeals.

I need to read more. I completely missed your "for the purpose of incorporeals." I apologize for this, though I'm slightly upset by the tone of your post.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-30, 06:13 AM
I need to read more. I completely missed your "for the purpose of incorporeals." I apologize for this, though I'm slightly upset by the tone of your post.

That's actually been overruled by the MM3 update to the incorporeal subtype, which makes creatures that bypass DR with their strikes as if magical to also have a 50% chance of hitting incorporeal.

Chrono22
2009-11-30, 06:18 AM
I don't think using your 'wizard polymorphed into big T' is a very good combat for the party in the first place.
Based on what you've said, the party will be holed up in some kind of very tall tower, on a (possibly) enclosed plane. I'm guessing they'll be playing defense.

Unless you are going to flood the tower with copious numbers of fodder/minions, the rogue, fighter and monk won't be able to contribute to the fight.
Since polymorph is a magical effect, the whole idea of a flying invisible Tarrasque is less intimidating than if it were just the Tarrasque. Even with the caster levels.
The polymorphed mage can't cast spells while polymorphed... which makes him far weaker than he would be otherwise. It also means that he has fewer actions per turn in proportion to the party- they'll be able to outmaneuver him tactically.
In my games, any mage worth his weight in ash knows that Arcane Sight is a necessary buff before any protracted battle. Assuming the dwarf theurge of the party can make the arcana check, he would then be abel to recognize the true nature of the monster they face. One well-placed antimagic field later, and the BBEG will be plunging hundreds of feet toward his death.

So, I recommend that you scrap the whole idea.
Here's what I suggest you replace it with:
The enemy wizard doesn't polymorph himself into a tarrasque. He instead summons an evil-aligned planar (adult) dragon, whom he is riding.
The enemy wizard should have three waves of minions that the party must fend off before he tries to attack them. The reasoning being, I suppose, that the party will waste some of their resources on expendable trash. The actual reason, is so that the fighter-types of the party get to make some important contributions.
Each wave should be progressively tougher. The first wave should just be bunch of weaklings. The second wave should include a few specialty monsters, such as mounted enemies or advanced versions of the weaklings. The third attack should include hard hitting, high HP monsters, such as giants, magical beasts, or dire animals.
Provide the PCs with allies, I recommend it.
When the party finally has to face the dragon-mounted BBEG, they'll know they aren't at full strength. This means that the BBEG will pose a legitimate threat to the party.
At this point, try to get the monk and theurge to pair off against the wizard, while the rogue, fighter, and ranger go against the dragon. This will let the player characters' strengths shine.

If you want to add a greater sense of tension, include a condition for failure for each wave- perhaps the BBEG is having his minions attack support structures, such as load-bearing pillars. If the party doesn't prevent the enemies from destroying too many pillars, it can lead to a collapse.

Good luck with your game, whatever you decide.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-30, 06:40 AM
Actually, the version in the TOB explicitly states: "Use this version for the maneuver", which would imply that it isn't necessarily used for other incorporeals.

However, upon researching this lead, TOB also explicitly refers to MM3 as providing an UPDATE for the Incorporeal subtype. The incorporeal subtype there is identical to TOB. Since it's explicitly stated to supercede the PHB/SRD version, it does.

So yeah, monks can hit ghosts now.

Hooray for stealth updates. Not just for psionics, it seems.

Your joking? They stealth improved monks...
Madnesss.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-30, 08:31 AM
At this point, try to get the monk and theurge to pair off against the wizard, while the rogue, fighter, and ranger go against the dragon.

That's still not particularly good odds. I'm not particularly sure what the monk is intending to do against the wizard, or what the rogue is intending to do against the (likely flying) dragon.

ericgrau
2009-11-30, 08:55 AM
Locate an Allip, Control Undead on an Allip, Teleport to Big T, watch the fireworks. Feel free to make use of Walls of Force and similars to keep it from escaping as its mind is leeched away. Doable on level 13 with knowledge of its existence; given that Big T makes quite a bit of ruckus when active, that shouldn't be a problem.

Wall of force only covers one side, and barely manages to do so against a creature so large. Sadly the tarrasque will likely move within the 2-3 rounds it takes to put up the other walls, even if he has no idea what's going on with them. Touching the allips to teleport them in may be interesting. Control undead only lasts 1 minute per caster level.

A DC 20 listen check (easy for Mr T) plus blind fight means that greater invisibility gives nothing more than a 25% miss chance against the tarrasque. Does anybody read the rules?

Pumping up the caster level and spamming plane shifts or another such spell until one lands may work. Except you better have a great way to survive while using melee touch attacks for so long. Spectral hand may work. By the time the party reaches level 18-19 stacking ranged magic + arrow + sneak attack damage may work, as long as they can survive long enough to whittle it down. Magical beast bane arrows would be good to buy.

Prime32
2009-11-30, 09:02 AM
This seems relevant. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=114.0)

Ravens_cry
2009-11-30, 09:21 AM
Have someone who has a good chance of coming out, fly into Mr. T's gut, plant an immovable rod and cut and/or fly out. RAW, he can only move up to 10 feet each round (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#immovableRod). No more jumping to get the archer.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-30, 09:29 AM
Have someone who has a good chance of coming out, fly into Mr. T's gut, plant an immovable rod and cut and/or fly out. RAW, he can only move up to 10 feet each round (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#immovableRod). No more jumping to get the archer.

... Until the Rod is dissolved in the Tarrasque's stomach, that is.

Ravens_cry
2009-11-30, 09:38 AM
... Until the Rod is dissolved in the Tarrasque's stomach, that is.
If you got it custom made out of adamantine, only 3 rolls of the dice will even get past the hardness. Is there a way of granting items immunities, such as. .to acid? This would still slow Mr. T down.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-30, 10:27 AM
You have a level 20 wizard polyed into an invisible flying terrasque vs a lower leveled(14, was it) party of decidedly non optimized characters?

"rocks fall, everyone dies" is roughly as reasonable, and has the advantage of being over faster.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-30, 11:05 AM
If you got it custom made out of adamantine, only 3 rolls of the dice will even get past the hardness. Is there a way of granting items immunities, such as. .to acid? This would still slow Mr. T down.

Magic Item compendruim has something that makes item immune to rusting/acid. But I think it is a armor property.

Eldariel
2009-11-30, 12:02 PM
Wall of force only covers one side, and barely manages to do so against a creature so large. Sadly the tarrasque will likely move within the 2-3 rounds it takes to put up the other walls, even if he has no idea what's going on with them. Touching the allips to teleport them in may be interesting. Control undead only lasts 1 minute per caster level.

Eh, I just mentioned Walls of Force as a tool you can do to control its movement. Though Allip is quite able to keep up on its own, but if Big T tries to Rush away, a readied Wall of Force can expedite its demise greatly.


A DC 20 listen check (easy for Mr T) plus blind fight means that greater invisibility gives nothing more than a 25% miss chance against the tarrasque. Does anybody read the rules?

I thought Move Silently was implied... I mean, who the hell doesn't make the checks while Invisible? With little work, it'll be very due to distance penalties for T to make the check given how ****ty its modifiers are.


Don't overestimate Big T. It's not a CR 20 creature.

Necron
2009-11-30, 12:04 PM
Hrmmm... perhaps they could prepare the Walls of Force early in an area nearby the battle site and then lure the creature into the cage (as the Readied Cast goes off to seal it inside)?

Anything nasty we could stick in there to help it on it's way to the afterlife?

Chrono22
2009-11-30, 03:51 PM
That's still not particularly good odds. I'm not particularly sure what the monk is intending to do against the wizard, or what the rogue is intending to do against the (likely flying) dragon.
The monk has good saves, SR, and the speed to be able to close with the wizard. He can interrupt spellcasting, and at least has a reasonable chance of surviving any save or dies the wizard throws at him. Non ac defense-wise, the monk is the most likely out of any of the party to be able to resist the enemy wiz's magic. If the theurge is smart enough to prepare some dispel magics, or an antimagic field, the monk will come into his own against the enemy wizard.
The rogue would be useless by himself, but realize that if the dragon is flying, it means he won't be able to full attack against the party. This means the ranger could attack with impunity. If the dragon does decide to close to finish the ranger, he'll get a face full of d6's as the rogue SA's him.
There's not much the fighter can do but try to be a meatshield...

If you have any better tactics, that a non-optimized party could reasonably employ, I'd love to hear them.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-30, 03:58 PM
The monk has good saves, SR, and the speed to be able to close with the wizard. He can interrupt spellcasting, and at least has a reasonable chance of surviving any save or dies the wizard throws at him. Non ac defense-wise, the monk is the most likely out of any of the party to be able to resist the enemy wiz's magic. If the theurge is smart enough to prepare some dispel magics, or an antimagic field, the monk will come into his own against the enemy wizard.
The rogue would be useless by himself, but realize that if the dragon is flying, it means he won't be able to full attack against the party. This means the ranger could attack with impunity. If the dragon does decide to close to finish the ranger, he'll get a face full of d6's as the rogue SA's him.
There's not much the fighter can do but try to be a meatshield...

If you have any better tactics, that a non-optimized party could reasonably employ, I'd love to hear them.

I get how it survives, but what does monk do that interupts spellcasting? Wizard has spells like Invisibility Greater or Displacement to not be hit (let alone fly).

Chrono22
2009-11-30, 04:04 PM
The monk can ready to attack the wizard in melee should he start casting. Or he could grapple him.
Furthermore, he could abundant step into an ethereal state, which would mean the enemy caster wouldn't be able to spot him. While ethereal you can move in any direction, which means the monk could close with a flyer.
And, is this fight going to happen with no buffs for the party? Even if the party is unoptimized, certain buffs like Freedom or Movement or True Seeing should be obvious choices.
So, yeah, I think the monk is still best suited to be going head-to-head with the wizard, provided he has the right buffs and backup support from the theurge.

Tshern
2009-11-30, 04:06 PM
The monk has good saves, SR, and the speed to be able to close with the wizard. He can interrupt spellcasting, and at least has a reasonable chance of surviving any save or dies the wizard throws at him. Non ac defense-wise, the monk is the most likely out of any of the party to be able to resist the enemy wiz's magic. If the theurge is smart enough to prepare some dispel magics, or an antimagic field, the monk will come into his own against the enemy wizard.
The rogue would be useless by himself, but realize that if the dragon is flying, it means he won't be able to full attack against the party. This means the ranger could attack with impunity. If the dragon does decide to close to finish the ranger, he'll get a face full of d6's as the rogue SA's him.
There's not much the fighter can do but try to be a meatshield...

If you have any better tactics, that a non-optimized party could reasonably employ, I'd love to hear them.
Oh man, what a can of worms this just opened. No, he cannot get close to a Wizard, his saves are worse than Wizard's, SR is utterly unimportant and the Wizard can outmelee the Monk with ease, if he ever allows things to go there. Give me a level and I'll tell you why the Wizard wins.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-30, 04:08 PM
It's probably an unoptimized wizard, though, which means there's a chance it would work.

Chrono22
2009-11-30, 04:08 PM
Of course, you mean an optimized wizard. The OP specified that the party is only mildly optimized, so I presume the BBEG is only mildly optimized as well.

Eloel
2009-11-30, 04:08 PM
I have one question that I've been itching to ask for a long time.

T is immune to rays, due to Carapace.
Disintegrate is a ray.
T's regeneration is specifically called to work vs Disintegrate.

What is going on?

Also, just because I don't know, is Tarrasque immune to Vorpal ability of weapons?

Chrono22
2009-11-30, 04:09 PM
The caster got eaten? So he can disintegrate from the inside?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-30, 04:10 PM
I have one question that I've been itching to ask for a long time.

T is immune to rays, due to Carapace.
Disintegrate is a ray.
T's regeneration is specifically called to work vs Disintegrate.

What is going on?

Bend Reality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bendReality.htm) can't duplicate arcane spells... but when it does, you must pay additional XP equal to the value of the spell's expensive material component divided by 5 if it has one.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-30, 04:35 PM
The biggest problem with Wall of Force is that they must be vertical. Thus, no top to the box.

Now, you could place additional walls at the top and bottom to cut the escape area into blocks too small for the tarrasque to squeeze through, but that would require 2 Walls of Force for each.

Now, 8 Walls of force, before the Tarrasque moves.

Let's see.

2 Wizards. Readied Walls of Force for when it ends movement. (2)
They go next, Wall of Force, followed by Rod quickened Wall of Force (4)
They each Celerity, and Wall of Force again (2)

Done with 2 wizards, two normal rods of quicken, and 8 Wall of Force Spells.

The escape area on top and bottom is 1/3 the tarrasque's width, which means it needs an escape artist check to get out... Which isn't likely. Conversely, the party can engage it at will.

Ormagoden
2009-11-30, 04:45 PM
Edit: I assume the archer will pepper him full of arrows and rogue will tanglefoot bag or net Mr. T so he will stay in place.


ellllll ooooooooo ellllll

Grifthin
2009-12-01, 01:58 AM
Get a dozen decanters of endless water - get them into the terrasque's stomach. Use the Gush setting on all of them. Watch Terrasque explode.


Would that actually work ?

Callista
2009-12-01, 02:18 AM
Dunno. Probably not. Still fun to think about.

Personally, I'm looking at that low INT and thinking, "Hmm... now what would it take to get that score to zero?" There's more ways to defeat something than just going after its HP. Obviously poison is out, and all those immunities don't bode well, but hey, INT 3 is tantalizing.

arguskos
2009-12-01, 02:20 AM
Dunno. Probably not. Still fun to think about.

Personally, I'm looking at that low INT and thinking, "Hmm... now what would it take to get that score to zero?" There's more ways to defeat something than just going after its HP.
Something to deal Int DRAIN. I know of nothing that does that. Perhaps there's a few specific poisons...?

Callista
2009-12-01, 02:24 AM
I wonder if there's a way to mess with the tarrasque's special abilities themselves. Negating poison immunity would (see above) be very handy indeed.

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 02:29 AM
Hm, there's actually a number of creatures capable of draining stats. Most amusingly, Dire Weasel can drain Con by attaching itself to Big T. So with a sufficient horde of Dire Weasels, you could literally Weasel Big T to death; and as it'd be Con Drain, it'd actually die.

arguskos
2009-12-01, 03:00 AM
Hm, there's actually a number of creatures capable of draining stats. Most amusingly, Dire Weasel can drain Con by attaching itself to Big T. So with a sufficient horde of Dire Weasels, you could literally Weasel Big T to death; and as it'd be Con Drain, it'd actually die.
You know how many you'd need?! Actually, T-Dawg has Great Cleave, so that's highly highly unlikely to actually work. And, he's got Combat Reflexes and a Dex of 16, meaning he has like 4 AoOs a round. I think he might be able to Cleave your entire horde in a few rounds, unless you brought aleph-null Dire Weasels, in which case, well, you're cheating. :smalltongue:

Zaq
2009-12-01, 03:09 AM
If you want a stupid and RAWtarded way of doing it, I suggest stockpiling Pure Elemental Water (found in the Planar Handbook). Then just get out of jumping range and chuck them at it until it starts drowning... and by RAW, there's no way to stop drowning. (Even RAI, there's no indicator of what would stop drowning induced by Pure Element Water... for normal drowning, you stop drowning when you can access air again, but that's not the case for Pure Element Water.) Big T will always succeed on the low CON checks, but the check increases every turn to a max of 20. Even Big T's 35 con only gives it a +12, if memory serves.

BooNL
2009-12-01, 03:11 AM
Dire weasel allips?

What, animals can't be trapped vengeful spirits?

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 03:13 AM
Chain Boar's Ferocity and Delay Death on the Weasels. Now they're immortal. Profit. Seriously, it's worth the montage of Big T getting Weaseled to death. Kinda like WCIII ending with a bunch of Wisps blasting Archimonde into oblivion. Except Weasels are more...awesome. I mean, c'mon, WEASEL!

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-01, 03:14 AM
Actually, Con=0 can't kill it. Drowning can't kill it.

When it says it can be slain only by reducing its HP to -10 and Wish, it means it.

Nightson
2009-12-01, 03:19 AM
1. Build a magic item of command word activated Summon Monster V for about 90k gold.
2. 1d4+1 Fiendish Dire Weasels every turn.
3. ???????
4. Profit

arguskos
2009-12-01, 03:20 AM
Chain Boar's Ferocity and Delay Death on the Weasels. Now they're immortal. Profit. Seriously, it's worth the montage of Big T getting Weaseled to death. Kinda like WCIII ending with a bunch of Wisps blasting Archimonde into oblivion. Except Weasels are more...awesome. I mean, c'mon, WEASEL!
...damn, that's cruel. T-Dawg doesn't deserve such cruelty. Look, I know you're still smarting from when Tarry ate you and pooped you out, but it wasn't HIS fault. :smalltongue:


Actually, Con=0 can't kill it. Drowning can't kill it.

When it says it can be slain only by reducing its HP to -10 and Wish, it means it.
That's... a delightfully RAWtarded way of looking at things. :smalleek: I'm deeply disturbed by this revelation. Does it mean that the Tarrasque is quite literally immune to EVERYTHING sans hp damage? Does this prevent the Allips from being useful? Or are we going to assume that stat=0 still means he's knocked out and then just CDG him till dead?

Nightson
2009-12-01, 03:21 AM
Actually, Con=0 can't kill it. Drowning can't kill it.

When it says it can be slain only by reducing its HP to -10 and Wish, it means it.

With a Con of 0 it'll have a piddling amount of hitpoints though, you could pretty much run over and whack it at that point.

SparkMandriller
2009-12-01, 03:22 AM
Dire weasel allips?

I wonder what you'd have to do to a weasel to make it go crazy enough to kill itself.

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 03:24 AM
Actually, Con=0 can't kill it. Drowning can't kill it.

When it says it can be slain only by reducing its HP to -10 and Wish, it means it.

But that's just its Regeneration. Regeneration should only affect damage; killing it through means other than damage should be fair game. If worst comes to worst, Polymorph it into Construct or Undead so it loses its Con and thus its Regeneration and thus that weird clause that has nothing to do with Regeneration and yet is listed there. Bleh.


That's... a delightfully RAWtarded way of looking at things. :smalleek: I'm deeply disturbed by this revelation. Does it mean that the Tarrasque is quite literally immune to EVERYTHING sans hp damage? Does this prevent the Allips from being useful? Or are we going to assume that stat=0 still means he's knocked out and then just CDG him till dead?

Wis 0 wouldn't kill it anyways; just toss it into comatose. That's good enough though 'cause it lasts eternally and if some idiot tries to Restoration it, he needs to beat SR 32 to affect it. Certainly harder than just True Resurrecting it.

BooNL
2009-12-01, 03:27 AM
I wonder what you'd have to do to a weasel to make it go crazy enough to kill itself.

Put it in a cage with a baboon. Watch it go mad...

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-01, 03:28 AM
But that's just its Regeneration. Regeneration should only affect damage; killing it through means other than damage should be fair game. If worst comes to worst, Polymorph it into Construct or Undead so it loses its Con and thus its Regeneration and thus that weird clause that has nothing to do with Regeneration and yet is listed there. Bleh.



Wis 0 wouldn't kill it anyways; just toss it into comatose. That's good enough though 'cause it lasts eternally and if some idiot tries to Restoration it, he needs to beat SR 32 to affect it. Certainly harder than just True Resurrecting it.

Yup: Con 0 would render it pretty much permanently Staggered. Any other stat would mean comatose/paralyzed.

On a side note, polymorphing it into something without a Con defeats the purpose of using weasels.

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 03:41 AM
Yup: Con 0 would render it pretty much permanently Staggered. Any other stat would mean comatose/paralyzed.

On a side note, polymorphing it into something without a Con defeats the purpose of using weasels.

True. Which is why I'm vehemently opposed to the idea that the Regeneration stops means of death other than damage.

Prime32
2009-12-01, 05:32 AM
Get a dozen decanters of endless water - get them into the terrasque's stomach. Use the Gush setting on all of them. Watch Terrasque explode.


Would that actually work ?No. And now the tarrasque has a breath weapon.

KellKheraptis
2009-12-01, 05:39 AM
Start with Sculpted Grease...watch Big-T at the Icecapades? It's a start, and makes him a lot less scary once he's grounded. If it's a caster, that first dispel is likely to fry his ass from the air though, in which case they're now just fighting a wizard without his buffs in place. My adaptation of Anklebite's Master Spellthief would make short work of him (and the party, and the surrounding countryside), but that's beside the point...uncapped blasting makes my inner 1st Ed Firemage smile :)

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-01, 05:50 AM
True. Which is why I'm vehemently opposed to the idea that the Regeneration stops means of death other than damage.

There's not many other ways to read the "can only be slain by raising its nonlethal HP to equal it's total hp +10 (868), and then casting wish or miracle..."

The regeneration even converts death effects to damage that would put it to that point.

I'd say that <Con 0> would likely do that. Put it at permanent -10, but alive.

Commander_Vimes
2009-12-01, 07:04 AM
I was really excited by the idea of Dire Weaseling the Tarrasque to death, but I checked and they deal Con damage, not drain. So it is immune. Is there a way to suppress that immunity, because that would be a glorious way to defeat the beast.

Nightson
2009-12-01, 07:14 AM
Wraiths could attack from underground. Just a matter of how many natural 1s he rolls on the fort saves.

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 07:17 AM
I was really excited by the idea of Dire Weaseling the Tarrasque to death, but I checked and they deal Con damage, not drain. So it is immune. Is there a way to suppress that immunity, because that would be a glorious way to defeat the beast.

Hm, weird; it turned up in a search for "ability drain" on SRD hence the post. Apparently it found the "drains blood"-part. BAHHH.

Zen Master
2009-12-01, 07:25 AM
Chrono22: Other than the huge tower they start in, they'll be on a plane with nothing but flat ground and air. So mister T will have nothing to throw at the archer, but the jumping may be a problem.

The tarrasque could rip some random chunk out of whatever was beneath it, and hurl it to rather devastating effect, I guess. Well - unless it's sand. Sand really isn't much use as a missile.

SparkMandriller
2009-12-01, 07:40 AM
I was really excited by the idea of Dire Weaseling the Tarrasque to death, but I checked and they deal Con damage, not drain.

I've spent the past four hours trying to drive them crazy enough to kill themselves, and now you tell me that!?

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 07:44 AM
I've spent the past four hours trying to drive them crazy enough to kill themselves, and now you tell me that!?

Don't worry, if they do that they'll become Allips anyways and able to Wis-drain it!

Hunter Noventa
2009-12-01, 08:04 AM
The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

Since dire weasels do con camage via blood drain, you've got no go there. Not to mentiont hey have to get through it's DR.

My first thought was the Ephemeral Swarm,t he incorporal swarm that does auto-hit, no-save Strength Damage. but it's actual damage, and so is no good either.

rockdeworld
2009-12-01, 08:42 PM
Actually, Con=0 can't kill it. Drowning can't kill it.

When it says it can be slain only by reducing its HP to -10 and Wish, it means it.
No, it's dead after dealing it's HP+10 in damage (and hence you can Soul Bind it... muahahaha). It just doesn't stay dead without wish or miracle.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 08:48 PM
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/Ngreder/LLAMsYRRUf_HT.jpgGee, something looks familiar here...

ericgrau
2009-12-01, 08:51 PM
Why not feed it a thousand cows or w/e so that it finishes eating and sleeps for another thousand years or w/e it is? Seems like that could work at lower levels, or am I messing up the fluff?

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 09:08 PM
I don't think using your 'wizard polymorphed into big T' is a very good combat for the party in the first place.Agreed, unless the wizard is merely using the body for defense, and is hitting with magic missiles and such.


Based on what you've said, the party will be holed up in some kind of very tall tower, on a (possibly) enclosed plane. I'm guessing they'll be playing defense.

Unless you are going to flood the tower with copious numbers of fodder/minions, the rogue, fighter and monk won't be able to contribute to the fight.Most likely quite true, especially if the wizard is played to his actual Int score.


Since polymorph is a magical effect, the whole idea of a flying invisible Tarrasque is less intimidating than if it were just the Tarrasque. Even with the caster levels.Personally, I find any higher level tier 1 characters quite scary, even when I'm one myself.

If that tier 1 character is ONLY a blaster? Maybe not quite so much.


The polymorphed mage can't cast spells while polymorphed... which makes him far weaker than he would be otherwise. It also means that he has fewer actions per turn in proportion to the party- they'll be able to outmaneuver him tactically.Err...polymorph doesn't preclude spellcasting. It *might* prevent verbal components, but the picture of the tarrasque looks like it has prehensile fingers, and it's easy enough to get one's hands on a spell component pouch. That's not including Quickened spells or those without difficult-to-use-while-polymorphed components.


In my games, any mage worth his weight in ash knows that Arcane Sight is a necessary buff before any protracted battle. Assuming the dwarf theurge of the party can make the arcana check, he would then be abel to recognize the true nature of the monster they face. One well-placed antimagic field later, and the BBEG will be plunging hundreds of feet toward his death.It'd have to dispel the spells, not just suppress them in a 10 ft radius. Otherwise, they click back on as soon as the wizard-nee-tarrasque falls out of its area.


So, I recommend that you scrap the whole idea.
Here's what I suggest you replace it with:
The enemy wizard doesn't polymorph himself into a tarrasque. He instead summons an evil-aligned planar (adult) dragon, whom he is riding.
The enemy wizard should have three waves of minions that the party must fend off before he tries to attack them. The reasoning being, I suppose, that the party will waste some of their resources on expendable trash. The actual reason, is so that the fighter-types of the party get to make some important contributions.I'm definitely with you on this one. Either give the party massively extenuating circumstances to increase their survivability, or scrap the original idea wholesale and replace with something similar to the above.


Each wave should be progressively tougher. The first wave should just be bunch of weaklings. The second wave should include a few specialty monsters, such as mounted enemies or advanced versions of the weaklings. The third attack should include hard hitting, high HP monsters, such as giants, magical beasts, or dire animals.This sounds like a good encounter, but is getting a little away from the original idea (though while off-topic, isn't a bad idea, really; the tarrasque will most likely slaughter the group without a lot of help).


Provide the PCs with allies, I recommend it.Definitely, though perhaps you should consider waging a full-on war against the tarrasque, with lots of troops that the PCs run as their commanders. This could be an interesting turn of events if and when the PCs get thoroughly trounced and manage to survive and flee by the skins of their collective teeth. Like Godzilla, Mr. T could wade through a major metropolis, with the PCs hurling their tanks and jet fighters catapults and flying low-level wizards using acid arrow at it. Then, when it's weakened enough, they go in for the kill!

SIEGE OF THE TARRASQUE! Next time on Nine Lives to Live!


When the party finally has to face the dragon-mounted BBEG, they'll know they aren't at full strength. This means that the BBEG will pose a legitimate threat to the party.Only if the endgame is as weak as the party is. Otherwise, it's like tossing babies into a wood-chipper.


At this point, try to get the monk and theurge to pair off against the wizard, while the rogue, fighter, and ranger go against the dragon. This will let the player characters' strengths shine.Wait, what? The monk has no strengths in this fight. Especially not against a wizard. He might have good enough saving throws and a high enough touch AC that he can survive getting blasted, but I doubt he could do anything against a wizard using even 1/10 of its defensive spells.

Though I guess the DM could play dumb and let the PCs win with the illusion of a challenge.

But then, it doesn't matter what he throws them up against.


If you want to add a greater sense of tension, include a condition for failure for each wave- perhaps the BBEG is having his minions attack support structures, such as load-bearing pillars. If the party doesn't prevent the enemies from destroying too many pillars, it can lead to a collapse.Hey, something for the monk to do! The party's casters face off against the wizard and the meat-head types can go against the (mostly magic-less) dragon, while the monk prevents the battlefield from collapsing from below by taking out a bunch of mooks.

Fun for the whole family party!


Good luck with your game, whatever you decide.Definitely. The party's gonna need it. :smalltongue:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-02, 12:36 AM
Why not feed it a thousand cows or w/e so that it finishes eating and sleeps for another thousand years or w/e it is? Seems like that could work at lower levels, or am I messing up the fluff?Actually, not a bad idea. Create Food and Drink is a 3rd level spell, and can give you enough food for 30 people at CL 10. We'll assume the +1 size category, 3x as much food thing holds true, and the Tarrasque needs 81 people worth of food for one day. That's 3 castings, probably more since you want him to sleep for a long time. Entirely doable.

If you get 6th level spells, Stone to Flesh gives you 70 cubic feet of meat. A few of those, you can at least distract the thing from eating you, especially if they're a bit hard to get to.

Chrono22
2009-12-02, 05:52 AM
Wait, what? The monk has no strengths in this fight. Especially not against a wizard. He might have good enough saving throws and a high enough touch AC that he can survive getting blasted, but I doubt he could do anything against a wizard using even 1/10 of its defensive spells.

Though I guess the DM could play dumb and let the PCs win with the illusion of a challenge.
If the DM intends to win, he can rig the fights so that he can win, regardless of PC level or party composition.
Giving the players the illusion of success is the point. Even if monk SR sucks balls, their saves aren't that amazing, and they don't have stellar class features... that doesn't mean the DM should prevent the monk player from making contributions. If that means "playing dumb" is the only way to let the players have a good time, then so be it.

Commander_Vimes
2009-12-02, 06:04 AM
Another idea to take down the Tarrasque. Get eaten and then pour sovereign glue down its esophagus. The throat will contract and fuse together. Tarrasque can't breath and a few minutes later croaks. There isn't a hole for the regeneration to fill, just flesh stuck to flesh. Have a dimension door spell ready to go as soon as you pour the glue.

Callista
2009-12-07, 12:47 AM
That might actually incapacitate it. But you'd still have to Wish it dead.

How much sovereign glue would it take?

onthetown
2009-12-07, 10:20 AM
My DM threw one at me when I was alone. Level 20 Ranger, Chosen of Eilistraee (Moonfire was a wonderful, if a little over-powered and under-used, ability, along with some others that would have been useful for the battle), magical weapons and armour collectively worth over 100,000gp all equipped or on her person.

It killed me in one hit, before I got a chance to use Moonfire and pray that it was affected by massive damage. Granted, methinks the DM was feeling a little nasty that day.

Since you have more than one player going up against it, you'll have more of a chance to get rid of the stupid thing before it can kill off all of your PCs. I heartily agree with sending it to the Elemental Plane of Water and letting it drown for all eternity.