Is the OOTS falling into a Cliche Trap?

[Thanatosia]

Why is the Order even looking for the Gate?

They have no interest in the gate.... they just want to stop Xykon from getting to it. So why are they trying to find it when they know they are at it's location? Just set up camp and wait for Xykon to show up. By searching for the gate, they are setting themselves up for the awful cliche where the villain walks in *right* after they finaly find it and thank the heros for locating it, because for <insert reason here> the villain could have never found it on their own.

[Jolee]

I thought that they were seeking out Girard to enlist his help rather than planning to make a stand in front of the gate.

[Forbiddenwar]

Why is the Order even looking for the Gate?

They have no interest in the gate.... they just want to stop Xykon from getting to it. So why are they trying to find it when they know they are at it's location? Just set up camp and wait for Xykon to show up. By searching for the gate, they are setting themselves up for the awful cliche where the villain walks in *right* after they finaly find it and thank the heros for locating it, because for <insert reason here> the villain could have never found it on their own.

That will work so well, because Xykon doesn't have greater invisibility!
Oh, wait.
I guess he could walk right past them, find the gate, set up camp and destroy the worlds, all while OotS is outside, waiting for him.

[J.J.J-H-Schmidt]

wow, you have a pretty good handle on the whole plot thing... of course that is kinda the whole point, but never sweat the trivialities.

if you wanted to read about an efficiently motivated and dedicated group of adventurers then i think this might not be the right place...

i dont think its a matter of if they are walking into a trap... but more about how they are walking into a trap... that and the comic resolution are always what keeps me coming back.

[SadisticFishing]

Because they can't take Xykon in a fight. What they're planning to do with the Gate itself is actually a very interesting question.

[Gorgondantess]

Emmm...


I thought that they were seeking out Girard to enlist his help rather than planning to make a stand in front of the gate.
That pretty much sums it up.:smallconfused:

[Gnomish Lab]

That will work so well, because Xykon doesn't have greater invisibility!
Oh, wait.
I guess he could walk right past them, find the gate, set up camp and destroy the worlds, all while OotS is outside, waiting for him.

They are, however, using True Seeing.

[FujinAkari]

They are, however, using True Seeing.

Yep... so as long as Xykon shows up during the 1 hour they have it active, great!

[drengnikrafe]

They are, however, using True Seeing.

Which, as evidenced by the fact that they haven't found the gate yet, doesn't work in a very wide range. In fact, just by staying outside the range of true seeing, or out of the viewranges of the casters in general, it wouldn't be too hard to still just sneak by.

[Ave]

They are looking for the gate for Xykon.
No, they are not evil, they just want to hurry the plot.

[Katana_Geldar]

It does good to remember Roy's plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html)

[i6uuaq]

It does good to remember Roy's plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html)

i wonder when we'll see team peregrine again...



edit: i also just noticed that their sending spell had exactly 25 words! team peregrine rocks!

[factotum]

I think it's pretty obvious that they're NOT sure they're at the correct location. They're somewhere within a mile of it, but that could mean Xykon arrives behind the next dune over and they miss him entirely. Far better to actually locate the Gate, because then they know for sure they're waiting in the right place!

[NerfTW]

Yes, why don't they just set up camp in the middle of the desert, when the gate might not even be there, to take on an entire army when it arrives!


BRILLIANT! :smallconfused:

[Gitman00]

Why is the Order even looking for the Gate?

They have no interest in the gate.... they just want to stop Xykon from getting to it. So why are they trying to find it when they know they are at it's location? Just set up camp and wait for Xykon to show up. By searching for the gate, they are setting themselves up for the awful cliche where the villain walks in *right* after they finaly find it and thank the heros for locating it, because for <insert reason here> the villain could have never found it on their own.

Interesting... this theory has merit. Much like in Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone, where Harry very nearly handed Quirrell the stone, when he never could have acquired it on his own. I could see the team bypassing some of the safeguards, allowing Xykon and co. to avoid them altogether.

[DarkElfGangsta]

No way Rich would do the cliche trap, OOTS is much better then that.

[Ladorak]

Interesting... this theory has merit. Much like in Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone, where Harry very nearly handed Quirrell the stone, when he never could have acquired it on his own. I could see the team bypassing some of the safeguards, allowing Xykon and co. to avoid them altogether.

Never. Compare. OotS. to that. Again:smallfurious:

j/k... but seriously don't, it hurts my fragile brain

[El Llamita]

Why is the Order even looking for the Gate?

They have no interest in the gate.... they just want to stop Xykon from getting to it. So why are they trying to find it when they know they are at it's location? Just set up camp and wait for Xykon to show up. By searching for the gate, they are setting themselves up for the awful cliche where the villain walks in *right* after they finaly find it and thank the heros for locating it, because for <insert reason here> the villain could have never found it on their own.

There MUST be a tvtrope for that. And as we all know, OOTS is very fond of tropes as long as it adds an extra twist to it, which is usually what makes he strip quite unique.

So long OOTS has been a clichè trip, and I don't hear anyone complaining.

[Herald Alberich]

Yeah, that'd be the MacGuffin Delivery Service (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacGuffinDeliveryService).

[Raging Gene Ray]

Yeah, that'd be the MacGuffin Delivery Service (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacGuffinDeliveryService).

:roy: Dammit, Elan, you're supposed to warn me about these things!
:elan: I thought it was too cliche for this comic!
:vaarsuvius: Oh, you should know better than that by now.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Why is the Order even looking for the Gate?

They have no interest in the gate.... they just want to stop Xykon from getting to it. So why are they trying to find it when they know they are at it's location? Just set up camp and wait for Xykon to show up. By searching for the gate, they are setting themselves up for the awful cliche where the villain walks in *right* after they finaly find it and thank the heros for locating it, because for <insert reason here> the villain could have never found it on their own.

Because they know that this is the next gate that Xykon is going to.

A good hunter follows the prey. A master hunter goes to where the prey will be.

[J.Gellert]

Why would they try to enlist Girard's help?

If Xykon wants the gate, then Girard has no choice in the matter. He will have to fight Xykon, if he gives a damn.

So the OotS going there, digging up his defenses, spoiling his illusions with disbelief checks, right before Xykon wanders in? Yeah, not going to turn out well. Beautifully planned, Roy.

PS. You'd think Elan would be warning him against something like that?

[Thanatosia]

:roy: Dammit, Elan, you're supposed to warn me about these things!
:elan: I thought it was too cliche for this comic!
:vaarsuvius: Oh, you should know better than that by now.
Pretty much Win :)

[Herald Alberich]

Why would they try to enlist Girard's help?

If Xykon wants the gate, then Girard has no choice in the matter. He will have to fight Xykon, if he gives a damn.

So the OotS going there, digging up his defenses, spoiling his illusions with disbelief checks, right before Xykon wanders in? Yeah, not going to turn out well. Beautifully planned, Roy.

PS. You'd think Elan would be warning him against something like that?

They're trying to give Girard advance warning. He ought to know by now that three other gates are gone, but he might not know why or who's responsible.

Going there and saying "hey, there's an epic lich and a high-level evil cleric coming; oh, by the way, here's his spell list" will, in theory, let them tailor Girard's illusions and other defenses to their foes. Much greater chance of victory that way than if Girard finds Xykon already there and says ":smalleek: what the hell are you doing to my gate?!" And even if he knows about Xykon already, he doesn't have as much information as the Order does.

Again, in theory. In practice, some or all of the fears in this thread might well come to pass, and the Order very likely won't easily win Girard's support, because this is OotS and that'd be too easy.

[HotAndCold]

spoiling his illusions with disbelief checks, right before Xykon wanders in

From my impression of how disbelieving illusions work, it wouldn't spoil anything, would it? The illusion would still be there and still be capable of theoretically fulling Xykon, even if the OotS knew it was just an illusion.

[jidasfire]

Assuming Girard is still around (and I give that a 50/50 chance), one must assume he's watching the transpiring events. If he is, he might assume that the Order of the Stick are out to manipulate the gates to their own ends, based on their behavior. Perhaps the smartest thing to do in this case would be to simply ask? Putting all the information out there might draw Girard out of hiding better than uncovering his hiding place. I don't think Xykon will pull anything sneaky right now, but Nale is likely to.

[Mystic Muse]

Cliches in order of the stick? It's unheard of!

[Herald Alberich]

Assuming Girard is still around (and I give that a 50/50 chance), one must assume he's watching the transpiring events. If he is, he might assume that the Order of the Stick are out to manipulate the gates to their own ends, based on their behavior. Perhaps the smartest thing to do in this case would be to simply ask? Putting all the information out there might draw Girard out of hiding better than uncovering his hiding place. I don't think Xykon will pull anything sneaky right now, but Nale is likely to.

Ask? Like, have Roy stand up and shout "Girard? We'd like to talk to you! We're the Order of the Stick, and there's a lich named ..." to the heavens?

Might work, actually. Especially if a few more days of searching doesn't turn anything up.

Edit: Actually, I could see Roy getting frustrated enough to shout "Arrg! Girard, where are you?", not expecting anything, only for Girard to answer "right here" and dismiss invisibility in front of him.


From my impression of how disbelieving illusions work, it wouldn't spoil anything, would it? The illusion would still be there and still be capable of theoretically fulling Xykon, even if the OotS knew it was just an illusion.

Correct, unless the Order was gracious enough to point out the illusion to him. That would give him a bonus to his save.

[derfenrirwolv]

Nope.

1) Unless they're standing at the gate, they have NO guarantee xykon will have to go past them to get to the gate. He could epic teleport, disintegrate his way through the ground, come in directly from another plane, or turn invisible and walk passed them.

2) The order cannot fight xykon alone. Even given a fair amount of marty stuing his way through his fight with super V, ykon is still a mid to high 20's level epic caster... with a 16+ level cleric, a 16th level mystic theurge, and a hobgoblin army in tow. They NEED girard to even out the fight.

[ThePhantasm]

Maybe the strip will avoid the cliche of not being cliche?

[golentan]

So, the way I'm seeing it now is: If they search and find it before xykon, they can count it as a win. If they search, but catch the baddies waltzing in under invisibility because they have true seeing on, they can at least make a fight of it. If they don't search, and xykon can find it, he can waltz past them under invisibility, and they lose.

So they're searching because though it may be a cliche trap, they're at least not burning opportunity cost. And they didn't bother to poll Elan about whether it was a cliche trap (not that they'd necessarily listen, but it might factor in). Of course, Xykon isn't exactly the stealthy type, but he may be more nervous if he hasn't found his Phylactery yet.

[Herald Alberich]

They can still make a fight out of it even if Xykon gets to the gate first, because he needs a couple weeks of uninterrupted time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) with it. It's a fight, barring incredible luck (in the form of natural 20s and otherwise), that they will lose, however.

If the can get Girard won over and prepare before Xykon gets anywhere near there, they have a chance, and a good one. That's not a guaranteed win either, though.

[DougTheHead]

Interesting... this theory has merit. Much like in Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone, where Harry very nearly handed Quirrell the stone, when he never could have acquired it on his own. I could see the team bypassing some of the safeguards, allowing Xykon and co. to avoid them altogether.

To me, the situation seems more like the long middle section of Deathly Hallows, where the protagonists have a good lead time on the villain, and some semblance of a plan, but don't have sufficient knowledge or wherewithal to properly execute it. Hopefully the Order doesn't spend nearly a third of the 5th trade paperback searching, though.

[DarkElfGangsta]

getting off topic here guys, we dont want to get six-gunned...

[Zeful]

So the OotS going there, digging up his defenses, spoiling his illusions with disbelief checks, right before Xykon wanders in? Yeah, not going to turn out well.

That's not how illusions work. Say a six-man party are walking through a field of illusions. Each party member get's a save to disbelieve an illusion when they interact with it, if they succeed they can see through the illusion for the rest of the spell's duration. They can then tell the other members of the party that X is an illusion. This gives the party the chance to disbelieve that illusion (with a small circumstance bonus). You can not simply "disbelieve" something with out some indication that it's an illusion (either direct interaction between the illusion and something in your line of sight, someone else telling you something is an illusion, or the like). Xykon is likely able to walk in anyway, being an Epic Sorcerer giving him a very high will save. Nothing the order can do will make it that much easier for him.

[Forbiddenwar]

I just figured out why Xykon Springing the macguffin delivery service isn't going to happen.

It can't.
Why?
Because OotS know exactly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html) where Xykon is at ALL times.

[Herald Alberich]

Oh, yeah. Or at least, they'll know when he leaves the city, assuming nothing goes wrong with the Resistance end of the plan. And Roy's supposed to get a haunting from his dad at that point, too (assuming he keeps his word), so they have two tabs on Xykon. Neither of those are absolute guarantees, but they're good to keep in mind.

[Katana_Geldar]

There's also Roy's Archon's plan that we don't know about.

[J.J.J-H-Schmidt]

There's also Roy's Archon's plan that we don't know about.

you know what... i had forgotten all about that. what do you imagine it is?

[Katana_Geldar]

It would have to be something Roy's Archon is capable of doing or enlisting help for.

[Setra]

It would have to be something Roy's Archon is capable of doing or enlisting help for.
Maybe it involves Soon?

Edit: Wait, did the people from Azure City go to a different afterlife?

[Katana_Geldar]

Maybe it involves Soon?

Edit: Wait, did the people from Azure City go to a different afterlife?

No (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), they just get processed on a different side of the mountain (.http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html).

[SPoD]

Why would they try to enlist Girard's help?

If Xykon wants the gate, then Girard has no choice in the matter. He will have to fight Xykon, if he gives a damn.

So the OotS going there, digging up his defenses, spoiling his illusions with disbelief checks, right before Xykon wanders in? Yeah, not going to turn out well. Beautifully planned, Roy.

PS. You'd think Elan would be warning him against something like that?

Because if they don't enlist Girard's help, Girard will end up fighting THEM instead, and then Xykon will arrive with the two groups at each other's throats. Remember, at this point, it is unlikely that Girard can beat Xykon alone either, since Dorukan couldn't and he was a single-class wizard. The only chance to win is for Girard and the OOTS to work together.

At any rate, they don't know for certain that they are at the right location until they lay eyes on the gates itself, and even then, it might be an illusion. The OP's plan only works if they really are in exactly the right spot, something they can't be sure of right now.

[DarkElfGangsta]

I have a werird feelig we need not worry. i suppose Rich reads the forums occasionaly. also, if no one noticed, xykon can cast epic level spells, so he can probably find it on his own.

or what iif he searches and searches, goes tired of searching, and nikes the area to make girard come out?

[Raging Gene Ray]

or what iif he searches and searches, goes tired of searching, and nikes the area to make girard come out?

How are shoes going to make Girard admit his secret love for Kragoor? And why would Xykon care?

[spargel]

Because if they don't enlist Girard's help, Girard will end up fighting THEM instead, and then Xykon will arrive with the two groups at each other's throats. Remember, at this point, it is unlikely that Girard can beat Xykon alone either, since Dorukan couldn't and he was a single-class wizard. The only chance to win is for Girard and the OOTS to work together.


That's assuming that the OOTS will actually be effective against Xykon. Which, I guess they'd have to be, or else the plot won't have a happy ending.

[Forbiddenwar]

. . . and nikes the area to make girard come out?

Who knew shoes could be so dangerous?:smallamused:

[DarkElfGangsta]

he could use them to Epic Curb Stomp the entire dessert.
also, I meant to write "nukes". Is it really hard to imagine Xykon, being childish and chaotic, getting tired of looking for the gate and going super saiyan on the entire dessert? it seems to me much more likely then him simply following them. Xykon is kinda more straightforward with his methods.

[Setra]

he could use them to Epic Curb Stomp the entire dessert.
also, I meant to write "nukes". Is it really hard to imagine Xykon, being childish and chaotic, getting tired of looking for the gate and going super saiyan on the entire dessert? it seems to me much more likely then him simply following them. Xykon is kinda more straightforward with his methods.
If Xykon went super saiyan(saiyajin?), what would turn gold?

Wait, maybe his crown would grow to double its size! .. Wait.. Skeletons don't have bowels though, so how would he sound constipated while he charges up?
I apologize to any DBZ fans, this was all in good fun

[DarkElfGangsta]

If Xykon went super saiyan(saiyajin?), what would turn gold?

Wait, maybe his crown would grow to double its size! .. Wait.. Skeletons don't have bowels though, so how would he sound constipated while he charges up?
I apologize to any DBZ fans, this was all in good fun

The ways of the super sayian are manifold and wrapped in mysterious enigmas. he's an all powerful skelton that can talk without the necessary organs, he can probably get constipated without the necessay organs too.

[The Glyphstone]

That's only when he gets bored and frustrated after failure - blowing everything up isn't his Plan A most of the time.

I'm assuming from context that you meant 'desert', and refrain from making a joke.

[DarkElfGangsta]

That's only when he gets bored and frustrated after failure - blowing everything up isn't his Plan A most of the time.

I'm assuming from context that you meant 'desert', and refrain from making a joke.

exactly - he'll get bored and frustratted after failing to find Girard and his gate.

I didn't make any dessert jokes, I was making DBZ jokes.

[Forbiddenwar]

exactly - he'll get bored and frustratted after failing to find Girard and his gate.

I didn't make any dessert jokes, I was making DBZ jokes.

Considering how fragile gates are, and how devoted Xykon is to world domination, I doubt it.

[DarkElfGangsta]

Considering how fragile gates are, and how devoted Xykon is to world domination, I doubt it.

where is it stated that gates are fragile? we do not know what Girard's gate looks like.

[Forbiddenwar]

Actually, Girard's gate looks like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)
Oh and the fragility of the gates is demonstrated whenever a gate is destroyed.
SOD

Lirian: A forest fire

Durokun's: destroyed by a spell.
Soon's: Destroyed by the swing of a sword.

It appears the gate's toughness is related to the material it is constructed by. Since girard's is simple stone we can presume that a thermonuclear blast will destroy it.

[denthor]

Interesting... this theory has merit. Much like in Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone, where Harry very nearly handed Quirrell the stone, when he never could have acquired it on his own. I could see the team bypassing some of the safeguards, allowing Xykon and co. to avoid them altogether.

Please read comic 253 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0253.html) to see what happened when your dear Harry dared stepped into a real D&D game.

[The MunchKING]

Interesting... this theory has merit. Much like in Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone, where Harry very nearly handed Quirrell the stone, when he never could have acquired it on his own. I could see the team bypassing some of the safeguards, allowing Xykon and co. to avoid them altogether.

I prefer to think of it in terms of FF2 (for the SNES) where Kain keeps getting mindcontroled and jacking the crystals to give to Golmez. Or they trade 'em for Cecil's girlfreind, or all the other times the Good guys fought their way in, only to eliminate the obsticles for the badguy.)

[The MunchKING]

Please read comic 253 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0253.html) to see what happened when your dear Harry dared stepped into a real D&D game.

Just because he got into melee range of the Barbarian.

Rydia, FuSoYa, or Rosa would have done better. :smalltongue:

[Gitman00]

Please read comic 253 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0253.html) to see what happened when your dear Harry dared stepped into a real D&D game.

My dear Harry? :smallconfused: I was just making a plot comparison. The reference I made is actually an example of him being an idiot.