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View Full Version : Red Wizard of Thay: Good or Bad



AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 01:18 AM
Can someone post the class features of a Red Wizard plz????

and is it a good prestige class?

jokey665
2009-11-30, 01:20 AM
It's not open content so we cannot post it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-30, 01:20 AM
1. No.

2. Yes.

Eldariel
2009-11-30, 01:21 AM
It is, however, in Dungeon Master's Guide so just pick the book up and see for yourself.

Dixieboy
2009-11-30, 01:22 AM
Tattoo scribing, and they become slightly more powerful with their chosen specialization.
Not sure if i can tell you much more. :smallannoyed:
I do believe I can say that it is by no means a BAD PrC, there's just a lot of better ones.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 01:23 AM
It is, however, in Dungeon Master's Guide so just pick the book up and see for yourself.

THX. That helps a lot...

Eldariel
2009-11-30, 01:47 AM
Tattoo scribing, and they become slightly more powerful with their chosen specialization.
Not sure if i can tell you much more. :smallannoyed:
I do believe I can say that it is by no means a BAD PrC, there's just a lot of better ones.

I dunno, Simulacrums for your Circle, cast CL 40 spells on level 13 regularly... It's really one of the topend PrCs simply due to how silly strong Circle Magic is. It's to CL what Incantatrix is to Metamagic.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 01:56 AM
The only "flaw" if one can call it a flaw, is the racial requirement. However cool, there really is only like 4 different human subspecies: Silverbrow (Dragonic), Underfolk (Underground Humans), Vashara (My Fave, Drow-like humans), and Aquatic Humans (Little more than merfolk), not including base human. And of those, only 2 would consider this class: Base and Vashara.

jmbrown
2009-11-30, 02:02 AM
The only "flaw" if one can call it a flaw, is the racial requirement. However cool, there really is only like 4 different human subspecies: Silverbrow (Dragonic), Underfolk (Underground Humans), Vashara (My Fave, Drow-like humans), and Aquatic Humans (Little more than merfolk), not including base human. And of those, only 2 would consider this class: Base and Vashara.

Not just human, but "human from Thay" and I'm pretty sure there's no human subspecies that exist canonically in Faerun. Of course, it's all a matter of changing fluff around but I don't know why they insisted on putting a Campaign exclusive class in the DMG which assumes you're playing in a generic Greyhawk.

Gralamin
2009-11-30, 02:03 AM
Not just human, but "human from Thay" and I'm pretty sure there's no human subspecies that exist canonically in Faerun. Of course, it's all a matter of changing fluff around but I don't know why they insisted on putting a Campaign exclusive class in the DMG which assumes you're playing in a generic Greyhawk.

Because the designers are obviously insane. They were giving us clues since the release :smalltongue:

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 02:07 AM
Most DMs I've talked to ignore the "From Thay" and just say you were originally in thay at one time or another.

Eldariel
2009-11-30, 02:08 AM
Not just human, but "human from Thay" and I'm pretty sure there's no human subspecies that exist canonically in Faerun. Of course, it's all a matter of changing fluff around but I don't know why they insisted on putting a Campaign exclusive class in the DMG which assumes you're playing in a generic Greyhawk.

It's explained in the entry: It's a class to showcase the other settings and the kinds of specifications Setting-specific PrCs can have.

jiriku
2009-12-01, 12:40 AM
Not just human, but "human from Thay" and I'm pretty sure there's no human subspecies that exist canonically in Faerun. Of course, it's all a matter of changing fluff around but I don't know why they insisted on putting a Campaign exclusive class in the DMG which assumes you're playing in a generic Greyhawk.

There is! It's called Deep Imaskari, and by golly, they even get +2 Int! I practically wet myself when I found the subrace, and then I went and built me a Deep Imaskari red wizard. For the OP, I can certify that the red wizard is as good a juicy angus steak seared to crisp perfection. At level 13, I'm routinely walking around with epic caster level (helps me bigtime on checks against spell resistance), and while I can't fire off volleys of metamagicked spells the way an incantatrix does, I can strategically apply metamagic to a few spells where it will do the most good. It's an excellent prestige class.

LongVin
2009-12-01, 12:54 AM
The only "flaw" if one can call it a flaw, is the racial requirement. However cool, there really is only like 4 different human subspecies: Silverbrow (Dragonic), Underfolk (Underground Humans), Vashara (My Fave, Drow-like humans), and Aquatic Humans (Little more than merfolk), not including base human. And of those, only 2 would consider this class: Base and Vashara.

Can you point me to what sourcebooks those subspecies are in?

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-01, 01:00 AM
Can you point me to what sourcebooks those subspecies are in?

Silverbrow are from Dragon Magic, Underfolk are in Races of Destiny, Vashara are probably from Book of Vile Darkness, and Aquatic Humans are either from Unearthed Arcana or Races of Destiny again. Deep Imaskari, which are FR-specific descendants of a human empire around Thay are in Underdark.

EDIT: Side-note, but I think a later FR book (Unapproachable East?) let characters qualify for regional feats and prestige classes by having two ranks in Knowledge: (Relevant Local) in place of actually being from that region.

jiriku
2009-12-01, 01:05 AM
Silverbrow are from Dragon Magic, Underfolk are in Races of Destiny, Vashara are probably from Book of Vile Darkness, and Aquatic Humans are either from Unearthed Arcana or Races of Destiny again. Deep Imaskari, which are FR-specific descendants of a human empire around Thay are in Underdark.

EDIT: Side-note, but I think a later FR book (Unapproachable East?) let characters qualify for regional feats and prestige classes by having two ranks in Knowledge: (Relevant Local) in place of actually being from that region.

The later book you're thinking of is Player's Guide to Faerun.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-01, 01:07 AM
The later book you're thinking of is Player's Guide to Faerun.

Ah, thanks. I thought I saw something in Unapproachable East about that, but it seemed like an odd place for it.

arguskos
2009-12-01, 01:16 AM
Ah, thanks. I thought I saw something in Unapproachable East about that, but it seemed like an odd place for it.
To be super technical, but being a Red Wizard and not being from Thay carries some severe repercussions in that particular setting. Just a warning to any characters you might build: avoid REAL Red Wizards. :smallwink:

EDIT: Yay, my fairly in-depth socio-political knowledge of the Realms pays off again!

herrhauptmann
2009-12-01, 01:26 AM
EDIT: Side-note, but I think a later FR book (Unapproachable East?) let characters qualify for regional feats and prestige classes by having two ranks in Knowledge: (Relevant Local) in place of actually being from that region.
You still have to meet the other pre-reqs though. Like you can't take Jotunbrud or Furious Charger (requires Human, from Damarra and Cormyr respectively) if you're an elf or dwarf.

Doc Roc
2009-12-01, 01:52 AM
To be super technical, but being a Red Wizard and not being from Thay carries some severe repercussions in that particular setting. Just a warning to any characters you might build: avoid REAL Red Wizards. :smallwink:

EDIT: Yay, my fairly in-depth socio-political knowledge of the Realms pays off again!

In fact, red wizards are mechanically inclined to be absolutely terrible people.

Run if you see one. It won't help, but at least you won't see the CL 40 spell that kills your poor fleshy sack.

arguskos
2009-12-01, 02:14 AM
In fact, red wizards are mechanically inclined to be absolutely terrible people.

Run if you see one. It won't help, but at least you won't see the CL 40 spell that kills your poor fleshy sack.
Ugh, that one time I caught Szass Tam drinking in a ****ty bar in Waterdeep was, well, let me tell you. If you see a lich drowning his sorrows in cheap ale, don't ask him what happened.

That was the longest week of being a frog I've ever had. :smallsigh:

Doc Roc
2009-12-01, 02:27 AM
Ohhh but when I was a frog I had to walk up hill both ways, and I failed both my saves so I didn't even know I wasn't a frog! :smallwink:

arguskos
2009-12-01, 02:41 AM
Ohhh but when I was a frog I had to walk up hill both ways, and I failed both my saves so I didn't even know I wasn't a frog! :smallwink:
See what I'm sayin'? The Red Wizzies, they'll polymorph a bitch if they havewant to.

KellKheraptis
2009-12-01, 05:43 AM
This class is made of WIN, especially if you combine it with the nonracial Shadowcraft Mage. Pre-epic mythals :) Yay! And for the record...no frogs or humans were harmed in the making of this message. Only halfings and other vermin or vermin subtypes.

Doc Roc
2009-12-01, 05:46 AM
I once subtyped a halfling so hard....

kamikasei
2009-12-01, 05:53 AM
I once subtyped a halfling so hard....

...its grandparents inherited the template?

Ahem... personally I'd find the alignment prerequisite (it's "any nongood", right?) more restrictive than having to play human, which barely counts as a restriction at all.

However, I'd say it's a prestige class that's very strong unless you're within arm's length of your DM, in which case CL-boosting Circle Magic shenanigans are likely to get shut down. It's one of those unfortunate classes whose chief strengths don't play well at a table. Of course, that depends on the nature of your game.

Keld Denar
2009-12-01, 06:27 AM
I once subtyped a halfling so hard....

Quarterling?

Killer Angel
2009-12-01, 07:37 AM
alignment prerequisite (it's "any nongood", right?)

However, I'd say it's a prestige class that's very strong unless you're within arm's length of your DM, in which case CL-boosting Circle Magic shenanigans are likely to get shut down. It's one of those unfortunate classes whose chief strengths don't play well at a table. Of course, that depends on the nature of your game.

True in both cases.
But even with a limited access to circle magic, the feature Spell Power is good.

Optimystik
2009-12-01, 07:39 AM
Quarterling?

Way to make me spray coffee everywhere right when I get to my desk. :smallannoyed:


To be super technical, but being a Red Wizard and not being from Thay carries some severe repercussions in that particular setting. Just a warning to any characters you might build: avoid REAL Red Wizards. :smallwink:

EDIT: Yay, my fairly in-depth socio-political knowledge of the Realms pays off again!

It's a lot like an Aes Sedai running into a girl that's only pretending - they're obligated to stop and make her life miserable even if they have urgent business to attend to :smalltongue:

Cyclocone
2009-12-01, 07:44 AM
On the topic of Circle Magic, I thought I'd mention Halruaan Elder (Shining South), which also gets it, in addition to some Incantatrixesque goodies -without giving up anything in return.
mmmmh silverbrow human wizard 5/incantatrix 10/halruaan elder 5, you are the ripe cheese on the dry crackers of wizardry.

Also, Hathran.

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-01, 07:46 AM
So, an immensely high CL means that your attacks do vastly more damage at a longer range for a longer duration?

Optimystik
2009-12-01, 07:47 AM
Also, Hathran.

Hathran (Witch of Rashemen) requires divine casting but doesn't advance it, a la Geomancer correct?
If so, it's not nearly as bad as the others I'd say.

Cyclocone
2009-12-01, 08:43 AM
Hathran (Witch of Rashemen) requires divine casting but doesn't advance it, a la Geomancer correct?
If so, it's not nearly as bad as the others I'd say.

IIRC it's arcane or divine. Although, even if it's both, there's that FR feat Southern Magician that gives you both, as long as you have one.

The class derives it's infamy from it's Alatrinous Constipation ability Rashemi Spirit Magic, which allows you to cast all your spells spontaneously, as long as you're in Rashemen.
This is normally pretty unremarkable, but (obviously) someone found a way to break it by using Acorn of Far Travel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a) to count as always being in Rashemen.
But what did you expect from a class that requires Leadership to enter?:smallwink:

Still, it can't hold a candle to the Halruaan Elders metamagic abuse; and besides, it can't take crafting feats.
Also, Red Wizard can be entered at lvl 6, Hathran and Halruaan Elder both need lvl 8; so the Red Wizard can eventually get simulacra who can lead circles themselves...

Optimystik
2009-12-01, 11:36 AM
The above, in addition to Incantatrix, are part of the reason I got soured on Faerun. Of course, Eberron gave us the wonderful Planar Shepherd, so it looks like there's nowhere to hide.

jiriku
2009-12-01, 12:04 PM
So, an immensely high CL means that your attacks do vastly more damage at a longer range for a longer duration?

Yes! But that's just where the goodness starts. Enhancing caster level by six is essentially the same as getting Spell Penetration, Greater spell Penetration, and Epic Spell Penetration for free. Never care about spell resistance again! Every three bonus caster levels is an extra party member I can teleport, which is useful because we have a large party. I can create more material with major creation, and build bigger things with fabricate. With even a few levells of CL enhancement, my spells become horribly difficult for CR-appropriate enemies to dispel. With a day set aside for the purpose, I can jack my caster level up to 35ish before casting personal buffs and making them permanent with permanency. The resulting buffs are impossible to dispel with anything less than disjunction or epic dispel, ensuring that the buffs really will be permanent.

I can do annoying tricks like heighten a moilian fell frightening symbol of pain up to a 20th level spell at CL 20, then use permanency to apply it to the fighter's shield. Whenever he uncovers his shield, enemies within 60 ft take either -2 or -6 to most rolls, with a save DC of, like, 40. Or I could do the same with a maximized moilian fell frightening symbol of weakness, dealing 18 strength damage to all enemies who fail the ridiculously difficult save and rendering them shaken besides. For lulz, I can do both and every enemy in the overlapping areas of effect is automatically frightened with no save (since the two shaken effects stack).

And this stuff isn't even a stretch. I can do all this without building simulacra of myself or using a red wizard cohort. My circle consists entirely of 1st-5th level wizards obtained as followers via leadership.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-02, 05:15 AM
The only "flaw" if one can call it a flaw, is the racial requirement. However cool, there really is only like 4 different human subspecies: Silverbrow (Dragonic), Underfolk (Underground Humans), Vashara (My Fave, Drow-like humans), and Aquatic Humans (Little more than merfolk), not including base human. And of those, only 2 would consider this class: Base and Vashara.

You missed Azurin (Magic of Incarnum).

For shame.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-02, 06:03 AM
You missed Azurin (Magic of Incarnum).

For shame.

They're like mayflies, though, so can you blame 'em?

Slayn82
2009-12-02, 06:50 AM
So, an immensely high CL means that your attacks do vastly more damage at a longer range for a longer duration?

Try using telekinesis with the metamagic feat Chain spell. Going up 41 x 40d6 damage if you have enought projectiles, or if your DM is a little restrictive and impose a rule that really should not apply, 40d6 + (40x20d6), not that it really nerfs anything. Combine with an easy set up like the shrink item spell, and enought lead balls, and you can bombard Red Dragons.

Yes, i know Simbul is one of the Mystra's chosen, full of shennigans, but how exactly is she stopping the Red wizards from invading her country? Stripping?:smallsigh:

The Glyphstone
2009-12-02, 09:15 AM
Elminster, obviously. Red Wizards get crazy caster levels, but his caster level is PLOT.

Didn't say who she was stripping for...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-02, 10:04 AM
Try using telekinesis with the metamagic feat Chain spell. Going up 41 x 40d6 damage if you have enought projectiles

TK caps at 15.

sonofzeal
2009-12-02, 11:38 AM
The only "flaw" if one can call it a flaw, is the racial requirement. However cool, there really is only like 4 different human subspecies: Silverbrow (Dragonic), Underfolk (Underground Humans), Vashara (My Fave, Drow-like humans), and Aquatic Humans (Little more than merfolk), not including base human. And of those, only 2 would consider this class: Base and Vashara.
You forgot "Empty Vessel". Everyone forgets "Empty Vessel", but they've got a writeup and don't actually have any weakness to possession. They're not useful for this though, with LA+1 and bonus pp, unless you're also doing Cerebremancer.

Eldariel
2009-12-02, 12:22 PM
Elminster, obviously. Red Wizards get crazy caster levels, but his caster level is PLOT.

Didn't say who she was stripping for...

Given Simbul barely wears anything anyways (http://ghostknight.net/dndrealm/dnd/images/TheSimbul.jpg), I don't think her stripping would really work out. Then again, just the fact that she basically wears nothing should be good enough.

Andras
2009-12-02, 12:55 PM
Yes! But that's just where the goodness starts. Enhancing caster level by six is essentially the same as getting Spell Penetration, Greater spell Penetration, and Epic Spell Penetration for free. Never care about spell resistance again! Every three bonus caster levels is an extra party member I can teleport, which is useful because we have a large party. I can create more material with major creation, and build bigger things with fabricate. With even a few levells of CL enhancement, my spells become horribly difficult for CR-appropriate enemies to dispel. With a day set aside for the purpose, I can jack my caster level up to 35ish before casting personal buffs and making them permanent with permanency. The resulting buffs are impossible to dispel with anything less than disjunction or epic dispel, ensuring that the buffs really will be permanent.

Not just that, it makes even more spells into effectively all-day spells, even before Permanency. Excessive CL has quite a few benefits.


EDIT: Side-note, but I think a later FR book (Unapproachable East?) let characters qualify for regional feats and prestige classes by having two ranks in Knowledge: (Relevant Local) in place of actually being from that region.

I am trying to decide whether the decision to put a rule that screams "weeaboo" to me in Unapproachable East was intentional. It's a toss-up.

Slayn82
2009-12-02, 08:14 PM
TK caps at 15.

Ouch, missed that one from 3.5. I play mostly 3.0 with some 3.5 adaptations and homebrew. Not that 41 x 15d6 isn't a lot of pain, mind you, but they had to nerf the other aspect of Telekinesis ? Guess i will have to use chained levitations and let the gravity strike my enemies now.:smallsigh: