Strictly speaking, shouldn't the comic have never gone past book one?

[Turkish Delight]

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I wasn't around to see it, so let's go at it again.

The Order faced off against Xykon and a horde of his minions at the climax of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools. At first, Xykon was pulling his punches so as to draw them in to touch the gate...but once he realized they weren't going to touch it and therefore had no reason to hold back, shouldn't they all have died gruesomely?

Seriously, the guy was casting Symbol of Pain and Magic Missile. We now know he has Meteor Swarm and can hit you with a Maximized Energy Drain. Cast a few of those and the battle is over: Xykon wins.

Even if he still needed to keep someone alive to touch the gate, you really only need one survivor for that. Either Xykon got a massive off-screen power upgrade between the dungeon and Azure City or he lost a virtually unloseable battle.

[Kish]

Yes, he could have annihilated them himself, but he wanted the creature in the darkness to eat them after his dramatic unveiling.

Spoiler for On the Origins of PCs:
The same way, against Redcloak's protests, he ordered the minions be arranged so that intruders would fight the weakest ones first and never too many bunched up. Xykon sabotages himself a lot.

[DBJack]

Xykon was bored. There was nothing to do for months, then bam!: 6 medium level adventurers bumbling around. He sent some discount mercenaries and watched the action. He set up massive traps on doors to watch them get tripped. And when they made it, he cast symbol of pain to keep some of them alive then decided to play some games with Roy. It's more fun to toy with someone you can destroy with one spell than to turn your first source of fun in months into ashes immediately

[Morquard]

Xykon thought they were a joke. Sure they were slaughtering his minions... but he does that too when he's bored, so that doesn't really mean anything.

Roy's kick was completely unexpected, and well of course unrealistic in D&D terms.
But I think at that time Rich hadn't set up Xykon to be epic level, he was just some clichee badguy and redcloak was just "that goblin cleric guy" (I'm not sure he even had a name then already). Once the story moved on, Rich decided to make Xykon the main villain and moved him up a couple of levels.

Of course, in the OOTS world, Xykon was epic level already, but as i said, he simply didn't take the Order seriously, he didn't think they could harm him, so why go all out? Why waste a level 9 spell if a level 3 does the same job?

[Turkish Delight]

The idea that Xykon treated it as a joke makes the most sense. Setting aside Xykon utterly blowing a cakewalk of a battle, however, there's a corollary to this issue that's still kind of eyebrow raising: doesn't the first book reveal Roy to be kind of an idiot? Really, it's a good thing to do some research on the guy you're planning to kill and find out if he's, say, ten or eleven levels higher than you are (or however much more powerful Xykon was at the time.)

Roy likes to make a point of how he isn't just a stereotypical brain-dead fighter, but it is a trait usually associated with intelligence to make sure a battle is winnable before you fight it rather than just charging in the moment you find the enemy. I don't have Origin of PCs, being a few thousand miles away from an affordable price for it, so I don't know if it changes anything, but Roy really should have taken Xykon's advice at Azure City from the start: go out, level up, get into a position where you're a credible threat, and then try to take on the epic lich. If not for Xykon's stupidity, Roy's planning would almost certainly have resulted in a flat-out TPK.

EDIT: And yes, I would say the simple explanation is probably the Real World one: the Giant took the fairly simple, disposable villain of the initial, far less ambitious comic he started with and decided to expand him into the Big Bad of an epic multi-book 'campaign.' But it is the duty of fans of any series to create justifications in the wake of necessary RetCons. :smallsmile:

[vbushido]

In D&D, your major enemy or 'boss' is often an NPC you'll fight more than once in a home campaign. Very often, the first time, you're 'beneath my notice.' And unlike in a video game, a fight against a higher level isn't instant suicide. Spells at their disposal like negative energy protection, spell resistance, false life, heroes feast, mass cure serious wounds, even plain ol' mirror image help greatly. Heck, a party of six 1st level characters could take on one 5th level NPC. It won't be easy, but it's quite possible.

So, I'd say it's a matter of storytelling. :smallwink:

[derfenrirwolv]

The Order faced off against Xykon and a horde of his minions at the climax of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools. At first, Xykon was pulling his punches so as to draw them in to touch the gate...but once he realized they weren't going to touch it and therefore had no reason to hold back, shouldn't they all have died gruesomely?

Xykon was playing with them and it cost him. Theres not much about being an epic level lich that stops a ticked off fighter from grabbing them and tossing them into a gate.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Xykon was playing with them and it cost him. Theres not much about being an epic level lich that stops a ticked off fighter from grabbing them and tossing them into a gate.Actually, there is. A single touch attack could have rendered Roy useless. The fact that Xykon just broke the sword instead of one-shotting him is his own fault.

[theinsulabot]

Actually, there is. A single touch attack could have rendered Roy useless. The fact that Xykon just broke the sword instead of one-shotting him is his own fault.

that homebrewed version of disjunction was believed by xykon (whether or not it is true) that one strike would utterly obliterate him. if xykon goes for a touch attack roys has a chance to swing. no idea why he didn't just fly off and meteor swarm him of course, but going for a touch attack first would of been a criminally poor idea

[Larkspur]

Setting aside Xykon utterly blowing a cakewalk of a battle, however, there's a corollary to this issue that's still kind of eyebrow raising: doesn't the first book reveal Roy to be kind of an idiot?

Yes.

Even putting aside Xykon, if Redcloak had used any of his real spells he could have taken the party out at that point. They were way outclassed.

I can think of two explanations for why Roy got them into such a stupid battle.

1. The dungeon itself was beatable. We know that this is because Xykon wanted entertainment, and killing off entertainment before it reaches you and shouts something lame and heroic makes it less entertaining. But one could easily see how Roy could be misled by the manageable difficulty of the dungeon into thinking the boss was much lower level than he actually was.

2. Nobody in this world, even allegedly educated people, seems to know jack about liches. The Order didn't even know there was a phylactery, which is... pretty much the definitional attribute of a lich. So Roy wouldn't know about Xykon's class abilities. Regarding Xykon specifically, very few people survive an encounter with Xykon to report back on spells that might reveal his level. (Eugene couldn't even find him, that's how few people were talking about their encounters with him). Roy was essentially going into that battle blind. It was still an act of incredible stupidity that nearly got the party killed, but you can see why he wouldn't know enough to call it off.

[Scow2]

Three Words, One Trope: Honor Before Reason

[Hann]

Yes, he could have annihilated them himself, but he wanted the creature in the darkness to eat them after his dramatic unveiling.

Spoiler for On the Origins of PCs:
The same way, against Redcloak's protests, he ordered the minions be arranged so that intruders would fight the weakest ones first and never too many bunched up. Xykon sabotages himself a lot.


Actually, that was just in the bonus material for Dungeon Crawling Fools. OtOoPCs ends before the party gets to the Redmountain hills.

[Nerdanel]

I think Xykon either wasn't aware that the OOTS world used the optional triple crit rules or knew about them and also knew that such rolls are outrageously rare.

Roy had a 1/8000 chance of rolling a natural 20 three times in a row on his attack roll and a 7999/8000 chance of a normal unarmed hit, miss or a critical, none of which would result in any actual damage to Xykon due to his DR. However, a triple crit is instant death no matter what, even when it's Roy's unarmed, nonmagical fist against Xykon at full hp or a puny goblin against a silver dragon.

[Turkish Delight]

Three Words, One Trope: Honor Before Reason

Well, yeah, but he's not a Lawful Stupid Paladin and prior to Azure City he didn't have any idea there were greater stakes being played for than his personal vendetta. He died fighting at Azure City because the alternative to fighting at the time was the very real possibility of Xykon winning it all and taking over the world; running off for a few years to level up was hardly an option. When that issue wasn't on the table, leveling up so he would be in a position to fight a winnable battle is just common sense. Honor doesn't factor into it.

[ThePhantasm]

This has already been referenced in the comic, in the last panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html). Note Redcloak's comment to Xykon.

[Vemynal]

Roy was banking on rolling three natural 20's in arow

[Katana_Geldar]

In D&D, your major enemy or 'boss' is often an NPC you'll fight more than once in a home campaign. Very often, the first time, you're 'beneath my notice.' And unlike in a video game, a fight against a higher level isn't instant suicide. Spells at their disposal like negative energy protection, spell resistance, false life, heroes feast, mass cure serious wounds, even plain ol' mirror image help greatly. Heck, a party of six 1st level characters could take on one 5th level NPC. It won't be easy, but it's quite possible.

So, I'd say it's a matter of storytelling. :smallwink:

This is right, a good DM realises when their villain may be a bit too over or underpowered and has a contingency plan. What was done with Xykon, letting the PCs think they had defeated him and it turned out that they hadn't, is the sort of thing you'd see.

[Boci]

Xykon was playing with them and it cost him. Theres not much about being an epic level lich that stops a ticked off fighter from grabbing them and tossing them into a gate.

I don't think Xykon was epic back then.

[Pigkappa]

I think Xykon either wasn't aware that the OOTS world used the optional triple crit rules or knew about them and also knew that such rolls are outrageously rare.

Uhm, aren't undead immune to all type of critical hits?

[Haven]

Uhm, aren't undead immune to all type of critical hits?

Yeah. Roy didn't crit, he just used...does D&D even have rules for throwing your opponents? Anyway, he did that, and aimed them at the plot device (stats: kills you dead).

[Forbiddenwar]

This happens all the time, which is why no DM, no matter how dramatic it looks, positions his nonflying Big Bad in front of a cliff more than once. It is far too embarrassing to begin a bad ass speech and be bull rushed into oblivion.

Now, Rich did it on purpose, as he states in commentaries. But many many DMs have done this by accident.

[Katana_Geldar]

Yeah. Roy didn't crit, he just used...does D&D even have rules for throwing your opponents? Anyway, he did that, and aimed them at the plot device (stats: kills you dead).

If they don't rules like that are not so hard to make up. I'd guess it would be part of a grapple.

[Optimystik]

I don't think Xykon was epic back then.

He must have been, to still get 9th-level spells with a +4 LA template.
That, and he took on two casters solo who we know were epic long before DCF.

As for not killing them instantly/paralyzing them all and the OP's other suggestions, he wanted them to remove the sigil on his gate, remember? Spamming doom spells the second they walked in would have just left him waiting for more adventurers.

[Bogardan_Mage]

He must have been, to still get 9th-level spells with a +4 LA template.
That, and he took on two casters solo who we know were epic long before DCF.
And he cast Cloister, so he had to be at least level 21.

[Boci]

He must have been, to still get 9th-level spells with a +4 LA template.
That, and he took on two casters solo who we know were epic long before DCF.

As for not killing them instantly/paralyzing them all and the OP's other suggestions, he wanted them to remove the sigil on his gate, remember? Spamming doom spells the second they walked in would have just left him waiting for more adventurers.

I meant I don't think Rich had decided he was epic back then. I know the comic is planned long ahead, so maybe I'm wrong, but its just too much of a strain to believe that an epic level sorceror couldn't get them to open the gate. Dominate? Hold party members at ransome and promise not to kill them unless one of the adventurers touches the gate? Xykon acts like a fool to make others under estimate him, but he isn't actually a fool.

And on a side note, +4 LA of the lich is irrelivant because Xykon is an NPC, so its just +2 CR.

[SaintRidley]

Mayhap the touching of the sigil by the pure-hearted one must be done voluntarily and without the influence of mind-effecting spells.

It's also likely he doesn't have things like Dominate Monster and Dominate Person - limited spell selection as a sorcerer and his bent toward necromancy make them less likely pics, and we saw on his return to his tower after the Dungeon of Dorukon, they train their guard monsters nonmagically rather than by domination and instruction.

[Boci]

Mayhap the touching of the sigil by the pure-hearted one must be done voluntarily and without the influence of mind-effecting spells.

Possibly, but I'm sure that went world domination is at stake, and epic magic for resources, he could have come up with a better plan.


It's also likely he doesn't have things like Dominate Monster and Dominate Person - limited spell selection as a sorcerer and his bent toward necromancy make them less likely pics,

Magical items such as scrolls or wands.

[mofabulous]

Xykon gained alot of experience throughout the comic. When they retook his old tower they killed dozens of good aligned creatures and even a silver dragon. Huge xp. Then he captured a good aligned city.

He also learned alot hanging around all those goblin priests. His knowlegde of magic has improved as well. When he first met Redcloack he used fire and lightning to smash everything. SoD explained alot of this and showed how bad at being an evil archtype he really was before he met Redcloack.

[Morquard]

Well there's 2 views on the comic:

"Inworld continuity": Xykon was definitely epic already, SOD happened and he was there, no discussion about it.

"publication continuity": SOD was released long after DCF was done. In other words, while Rich was writing DCF he didn't know about Xykon's backstory fighting Durokan, about Xykons epicness, and all that. So yes, its quite possible Rich hadn't seen him as epic when he wrote DCF. He probably also hadn't come up with the gate-scribble-mega-arc either.

So when people say "He wasn't epic then", they usually mean the second view.

[Sewblon]

The idea that Xykon treated it as a joke makes the most sense. Setting aside Xykon utterly blowing a cakewalk of a battle, however, there's a corollary to this issue that's still kind of eyebrow raising: doesn't the first book reveal Roy to be kind of an idiot? Really, it's a good thing to do some research on the guy you're planning to kill and find out if he's, say, ten or eleven levels higher than you are (or however much more powerful Xykon was at the time.)

Roy likes to make a point of how he isn't just a stereotypical brain-dead fighter, but it is a trait usually associated with intelligence to make sure a battle is winnable before you fight it rather than just charging in the moment you find the enemy. I don't have Origin of PCs, being a few thousand miles away from an affordable price for it, so I don't know if it changes anything, but Roy really should have taken Xykon's advice at Azure City from the start: go out, level up, get into a position where you're a credible threat, and then try to take on the epic lich. If not for Xykon's stupidity, Roy's planning would almost certainly have resulted in a flat-out TPK.

EDIT: And yes, I would say the simple explanation is probably the Real World one: the Giant took the fairly simple, disposable villain of the initial, far less ambitious comic he started with and decided to expand him into the Big Bad of an epic multi-book 'campaign.' But it is the duty of fans of any series to create justifications in the wake of necessary RetCons. :smallsmile:

Origins of PCs revealed that Roy really can be an idiot because he believed that Haley was a member of the Thieves Guild when she yelled "I am making a forgery check" in his face right before she handed him her fake I.D, and how he took Belkar at his word when he said that he had ranks in track. But Roy is more overconfident about his status as a "hero" and slightly inflexible than he is outright stupid, really all these characters have personality traits that cause them to sabotage themselves, like how Xykon is not stupid because his racial bonuses and Venerable age category bonuses mean that his wisdom and intelligence should both be at around 15, which is above average, but he is arrogant and apathetic and Sod showed that Redcloak is stubborn and cowardly. Like The Giant said in the FAQ, the point of this story is all these characters do things that would rarely happen in an actual campaign that make them extremely inefficient.

[SPoD]

Sometimes, when a story is being written piece-by-piece over the course of six years, some of the early parts don't match up with some of the later parts, because the author came up with an idea that he didn't have before. This is especially common in stories where the author didn't know he was starting a long-term story when he started writing, like this one. This is, in fact, a GOOD thing, because it shows that the author is still invested in his story and still developing new ideas for it, rather than just mechanically regurgitating it from his original notes.

As readers, we are encouraged to give him some slack in these situations, because really, it's amazing enough that he can write a detailed plot-heavy story that began with no preparations whatsoever. As a human, there are bound to be inconsistencies. This is one such inconsistency.

It is easy, however, to chalk it up to Xykon's character traits of overconfidence and boredom and simply suspend disbelief for the details.

[SaintRidley]

Possibly, but I'm sure that went world domination is at stake, and epic magic for resources, he could have come up with a better plan.


Point, though we shall note that Xykon while of rather high intelligence and awareness, he is notoriously reliant on others to do his planning for him.





Magical items such as scrolls or wands.

Doesn't quite seem to keep with his personality, personally.

SoD:
:xykon: I am a sorcerer - and this magic is in my bones, not cribbed off of "Magic for Dummies". And I can keep casting the same friggin' spell at you until you roll over and die. You can have your finely-crafter watch - give me the sledgehammer to the face any day.


That doesn't sound like the sort who would invest in scrolls or wands. He'll figure out a way with what he has, and if he can't do that he'll bash you with a wall, or your award, or choke you down with his phalanges.

[Setra]

It is easy, however, to chalk it up to Xykon's character traits of overconfidence and boredom and simply suspend disbelief for the details.
Honestly, it doesn't even register on my disbelief scale.. That is to say, I can easily see it happening.

He was toying with them, because he KNEW they didn't have a chance. I'd probably do the same in his shoes, he knew he could drop them all with a single spell so why should he worry? I mean even in more recent strips with an uber undead killing sword Roy only managed to make Xykon say "Hey, that hurts!"

And on some level he also knew if he somehow DID die, he's a Lich, it's not like its permanent, but I don't think he was relying on that.

But he was caught off guard for one attack, an attack he didn't forsee, and that one attack was enough to put him under(temporarily).

It totally fits, sure it's unlikely, but so is Elan and Nale randomly meeting eachother in a dungeon and finding out they're brothers who just so happen to have opposing teams.

[Nerdanel]

Uhm, aren't undead immune to all type of critical hits?

They are immune to normal critical hits. If exact text of the optional rule of triple critting (I don't actually have it) doesn't mention how it interacts with creatures that are immune to normal criticals, it can argued which rule triumphs. For example, if rolling a natural 20 three times in a row isn't actually called a critical hit then the undead immunities obviously don't apply. If not, it could be a case like where creatures with a DR/good can have their DR also pierced by holy damage but not the other way around. (Think of normal criticals as good damage and triple crits as holy damage. Is crit immunity in this analogy DR/holy or DR/-?)

[rewinn]

I think Xykon either wasn't aware that the OOTS world used the optional triple crit rules or knew about them and also knew that such rolls are outrageously rare.

Roy had a 1/8000 chance of rolling a natural 20 three times in a row on his attack roll and a 7999/8000 chance of a normal unarmed hit, miss or a critical, none of which would result in any actual damage to Xykon due to his DR. However, a triple crit is instant death no matter what, even when it's Roy's unarmed, nonmagical fist against Xykon at full hp or a puny goblin against a silver dragon.

That's a good start, but even Roy's 1-in-8000 strike didn't make Xykon dead (er, deader), it just knocked his head off. The odds of Roy then making a successful toss of Xykon's parts into the gate must have been around 1-in-250 since that would make it a 1-in-a-million shot.

Which means, a sure thing!

==

But seriously folks, can't characters ... even NPCs ... screw up and then learn from their mistakes? Maybe Xykon was indeed just a generic big-bad until The Giant decided to write an epic, maybe the backstory was sort of there all along, but either way it doesn't take much of a retcon for Xykon at that point in his career to have had the power to Meteor Swarm the party into oblivion, but chose to put his amusement ahead of the most effective way to fulfilling his ultimate purpose. In fact, his coming to terms with this problem is sort of the point of 662 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html)

[Turkish Delight]

As for not killing them instantly/paralyzing them all and the OP's other suggestions, he wanted them to remove the sigil on his gate, remember? Spamming doom spells the second they walked in would have just left him waiting for more adventurers.

:smallconfused:

I addressed that subject in basically the same sentence in which I asked the question.


At first, Xykon was pulling his punches so as to draw them in to touch the gate...but once he realized they weren't going to touch it and therefore had no reason to hold back, shouldn't they all have died gruesomely?

And...


Even if he still needed to keep someone alive to touch the gate, you really only need one survivor for that.

This also assumes, of course, that Xykon is basically a walking tac-nuke who can only choose between either wiping out everything in the room or being utterly ineffectual.

[SaintRidley]

We are talking about Xykon with minions. Xykon will watch his minions get slaughtered by something he can fix with a 5th or 6th level spell for fun.

I really think you're overestimating his personality.

[Callista]

Xykon's gained levels since the first time he encountered the OotS, anyway, whether or not he was epic then. Clearing out all those creatures from his tower must have given him at least some XP, especially since one of them was a pretty big dragon.

[factotum]

Xykon's gained levels since the first time he encountered the OotS, anyway, whether or not he was epic then.

That doesn't really make any difference to the point under discussion. If Xykon was already epic in the Dungeon of Dorukan, which he must have been to recast Cloister, then it doesn't matter HOW epic he was--he could easily have wiped the floor with the Order, who we know were only level 13 at the Battle for Azure City.

However, I'm with those who think it doesn't really matter. As Setra points out, Xykon made a crucial mistake and underestimated the Order back in the Dungeon, which allowed Roy to throw him into an almighty plot device. If it had come down to just a straight fight between the Order and Xykon, the lich would have walked it.

[Selene]

It totally fits, sure it's unlikely, but so is Elan and Nale randomly meeting eachother in a dungeon and finding out they're brothers who just so happen to have opposing teams.

The Elan/Nale thing wasn't random. Nale planned it that way. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html

[Querzis]

Like most people here, I think Xykon personality is more then enough to explain everything. And I really dont need to suspend my disbelief for that SPoD, its was perfectly normal for a guy like Xykon to do this. Yes Xykon was epic back then, he was really incredibly strong. But what you dont seems to realize is that its because hes so freaking strong that he didnt immediatly kill the Order. If the Order would have been a challenge for him, he would have killed them as soon as possible. But Xykon is a really bored undead who lost most of the things he found so enjoyable in life. Xykon has only two things left to relieve his boredom: fighting people as strong as him and toying with people weaker then him. If the Order would have been stronger then him he would have killed them, not the other way around.


Setting aside Xykon utterly blowing a cakewalk of a battle, however, there's a corollary to this issue that's still kind of eyebrow raising: doesn't the first book reveal Roy to be kind of an idiot? Really, it's a good thing to do some research on the guy you're planning to kill and find out if he's, say, ten or eleven levels higher than you are (or however much more powerful Xykon was at the time.)

Roy father spent years doing research on Xykon. Xykon rarely leave survivors. There was never anybody before the Battle for AC who could have known how powerfull Xykon really was except his minions. The fact is that the Order were killing Xykon minions easely so Roy had absolutely no reason to believe that Xykon was too powerfull for him. People as strong as Xykon dont usually have normal goblins as minions.

Hell, lich are so freaking rare in the OOTS world that the only one until now who knew about Xykon phylactery and was able to recognize it was Soon!

[hamishspence]

Xykon rarely leave survivors. There was never anybody before the Battle for AC who could have known how powerfull Xykon really was except his minions.

"He is the dread lich Xykon. There will be no survivors. The dread lich Xykon has come for your soooouls!" :smallbiggrin:

(Actually, given that he has Soul bind, this can work.)

[HotAndCold]

its because hes so freaking strong that he didnt immediatly kill the Order. If the Order would have been a challenge for him, he would have killed them as soon as possible.

Xykon demonstrates exactly this when he fights soul-spliced Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).

"You want to fight me 'cause I'm here? [...] Of course, it does leave me in the position of having no reason to go easy on you. Your basic knight-on-a-valiant-quest is one thing, but a challenge to my rep? That needs to be met with all means at my disposal, I think."

Xykon was just messing around with Roy, and Roy managed to get in a lucky shot. It was a goof-up on Xykon's part, sure, but not an out-of-character one, not by a long shot. These aren't characters that come up with and execute idealized plans, especially Xykon, whose idea of strategy is literally that it doesn't matter.

[Turkish Delight]

Roy father spent years doing research on Xykon. Xykon rarely leave survivors. There was never anybody before the Battle for AC who could have known how powerfull Xykon really was except his minions.

When just about everyone who meets your enemy ends up dead, that in itself is usually a good sign that you need to be really, really prepared before you go looking for that enemy rather than just making a broad assumption about what you're up against and then going for it. At the very least, you can make a guess how powerful your opponent is judging by the people you know he's killed; in doing research, have you found any high level, or even epic, characters who ended up dying at his hands? If so, it's a good bet that your mid-level party probably isn't up to the task.

Roy took a gamble which in hindsight makes him look like a complete fool. There's really no way around that that I can see.

[factotum]

When just about everyone who meets your enemy ends up dead, that in itself is usually a good sign that you need to be really, really prepared before you go looking for that enemy rather than just making a broad assumption about what you're up against and then going for it.

You're making the assumption that Roy knew people who came up against Xykon ended up dead. The point Querzis was making is that people generally didn't escape from Xykon's clutches to report how powerful he was, so how would Roy discover that information?

[Gitman00]

Origins of PCs revealed that Roy really can be an idiot because he believed that Haley was a member of the Thieves Guild when she yelled "I am making a forgery check" in his face right before she handed him her fake I.D, and how he took Belkar at his word when he said that he had ranks in track. But Roy is more overconfident about his status as a "hero" and slightly inflexible than he is outright stupid, really all these characters have personality traits that cause them to sabotage themselves, like how Xykon is not stupid because his racial bonuses and Venerable age category bonuses mean that his wisdom and intelligence should both be at around 15, which is above average, but he is arrogant and apathetic and Sod showed that Redcloak is stubborn and cowardly. Like The Giant said in the FAQ, the point of this story is all these characters do things that would rarely happen in an actual campaign that make them extremely inefficient.

The first two examples don't mean Roy's an idiot. They're jokes about him having no ranks in Sense Motive, and are more jabs at the D&D rules for opposed skills (Bluff v. Sense Motive) than at Roy's idiocy. I think the greater issue is Roy's issues with his father. (see Well Done Son Guy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellDoneSonGuy)) He went looking for Xykon mostly to show his father that a lowly fighter could do what his wizard daddy never could.

So he started the adventure, perhaps a little rashly and a little less prepared than he should have been. However, he had no reason to believe Xykon was epic level at the time; all he knew was that he had killed Eugene's mentor, Fyron. We don't know what Fyron's level was, only that he had an utter disdain for sorcerers and that Xykon ultimately beat him by bashing his brains in with a trophy. We also know that Eugene was less than forthcoming with information about Xykon.

[Turkish Delight]

You're making the assumption that Roy knew people who came up against Xykon ended up dead. The point Querzis was making is that people generally didn't escape from Xykon's clutches to report how powerful he was, so how would Roy discover that information?

Going by what was said earlier, his father had supposedly been researching Xykon for years. I'm willing to just barely accept the strained concept that no one at all knows anything about Xykon's power because he has a 100% kill rate of everyone he's ever met who has seen him in action, but it's taking the idea to absurdity to think the guy is so utterly thorough he kills anyone who even knows about how there's a walking bag of bones out there killing everything in it's path.

Is this completely, utterly thorough and efficient clockwork killing machine who goes through the effort to erase every trace of his background or hint of his existence and power, down to even the most incidental eyewitness, the same Xykon we see in the comic? The one who can't find his keys, can't remember the guy who killed him and 'sleeps' through strategy sessions?

[factotum]

Roy's father gave up on his chase after Xykon before he became a lich, I believe--he only found out he'd become one after his own death, at which point he could use the epic scrying from the clouds to find that sort of thing out. As for Xykon, all we know for sure is that he disappeared entirely for quite a few years--even Redcloak didn't know where he was until he showed up maybe 3 years before they attacked Dorukan's Dungeon.

I believe you're also thinking of modern-day communications. Yes, this is a world where people can communicate magically, but even so, news does not travel fast or far in a generally medieval society. Given that Xykon has been keeping the company of goblins for years, a race humans would naturally tend to avoid, I don't find it at all surprising that Roy doesn't know how dangerous he is until he actually runs into him.

[fangthane]

V has divinations. Durkon has divinations. Roy could have asked his dad about Xykon's capabilities, and if I'm not mistaken his father actually did warn him that Xykon was powerful, if not necessarily how much so.

In a world with magic, especially of the divination school, there's no need for anyone to survive an attack on Xykon - even if only the gods themselves know what he's been up to... several characters (the High Priest in AC prior to his demise, Durkon, the Oracle and more) can ask them. So yeah, I'd have to admit that Roy was pretty stupid not to have availed himself of at least one of his information sources. Ideally several, cross-referenced with arcane divination from V.

As to Xykon I agree with the prevailing trend; he wasn't meant as the kind of villain he's become, but his approach to life amply explains his willingness to indulge boredom in the Dungeon of Dorukan. It parallels the scene where he offers Roy the option of escape (though this time he makes sure to retain advantages he never sought the first time) and subsequent meetings are sure to be nastier still.

[Herald Alberich]

We don't know what Fyron's level was, only that he had an utter disdain for sorcerers and that Xykon ultimately beat him by bashing his brains in with a trophy.

And that he was an archmage. Don't you need to be like level 16 to take that prestige class?

Why am I asking, I can look it up.

You need to be able to cast 7th-level spells. Fyron was no pushover, and Roy probably should have known his killer was beyond the Order's skills. But none of them were very effective back then, really.

[Conuly]

You need to be able to cast 7th-level spells. Fyron was no pushover, and Roy probably should have known his killer was beyond the Order's skills. But none of them were very effective back then, really.

Xykon only won that one because he cheated, and because Fyron fell into the same trap Xykon did the first time he met the Order - he underestimated.

[Querzis]

V has divinations. Durkon has divinations.

And Xykon has Cloister.


Roy could have asked his dad about Xykon's capabilities, and if I'm not mistaken his father actually did warn him that Xykon was powerful, if not necessarily how much so.

Roy simply assumed his dad would have been smart enough to tell him if Xykon was epic level. Eugene objection was that a fighter would stand no chance against a magic user. He never especially said anything about Xykon level and I dont think he knew much about Xykon level either.


In a world with magic, especially of the divination school, there's no need for anyone to survive an attack on Xykon - even if only the gods themselves know what he's been up to... several characters (the High Priest in AC prior to his demise, Durkon, the Oracle and more) can ask them. So yeah, I'd have to admit that Roy was pretty stupid not to have availed himself of at least one of his information sources. Ideally several, cross-referenced with arcane divination from V.

Change «several people» with «the Oracle». Nobody else has been shown to be able to get through Xykon magic.


And that he was an archmage. Don't you need to be like level 16 to take that prestige class?

Why am I asking, I can look it up.

You need to be able to cast 7th-level spells. Fyron was no pushover, and Roy probably should have known his killer was beyond the Order's skills. But none of them were very effective back then, really.

I dont have Origin right now but I dont remember Eugene telling Roy his master was an archmage not to mention the fact that being an Archmage doesnt really means he had the prestige class. Beside, Fyron had greater magical powers then Xykon. Xykon was just a lot better at improvising.

[Herald Alberich]

I dont have Origin right now but I dont remember Eugene telling Roy his master was an archmage not to mention the fact that being an Archmage doesnt really means he had the prestige class. Beside, Fyron had greater magical powers then Xykon. Xykon was just a lot better at improvising.

I don't have Origin at all; it's Xykon who considered his foe an archmage: 434 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) (and apparently Roy knew it too, since that's how he was identified).

Edit: Anyway, the point is, Fyron was powerful, Roy knew it, so he should have known Xykon was also powerful and/or really skilled.

[Setra]

The Elan/Nale thing wasn't random. Nale planned it that way. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html
I know, but it's still unlikely, from the Order's (and the viewer's) point of view they didn't even know Elan had a twin until they randomly pop up.

Even taking into account it was planned, him having an evil twin who just happened to have planned this all was unlikely.

Roy made a couple lucky grapple checks against a very cocky (albeit deserving of it) sorcerer, I still consider that more likely.

[rewinn]

Roy simply assumed his dad would have been smart enough to tell him if Xykon was epic level. Eugene objection was that a fighter would stand no chance against a magic user. He never especially said anything about Xykon level and I dont think he knew much about Xykon level either.

Eugene's conduct is not entirely wise in this matter. He knew he had a blood oath that would devolve onto Roy, and didn't work too hard on equipping Roy to fulfill it. Now POSSIBLY Eugene didn't anticipate getting stuck in the boring part of the afterlife until the oath was fulfilled, but a wiser person would have made inquiries.

If Eugene were really a bastard, he would have deliberately left Roy underprepared so that the oath would devolve more quickly onto his magic-user daughter. This puts a different spin on a lot of their dialogue.

[Forbiddenwar]

I don't have Origin at all; it's Xykon who considered his foe an archmage: 434 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) (and apparently Roy knew it too, since that's how he was identified).

Edit: Anyway, the point is, Fyron was powerful, Roy knew it, so he should have known Xykon was also powerful and/or really skilled.

Because Miko isn't really a paladin, she is a Samurai. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html)
Seriously though, Archmage Fryon could be just a title, and not a class. And what would Roy know about Wizard prestige classes anyway.

[Turkish Delight]

And Xykon has Cloister.

As with discovering that your opponent hasn't left any survivors to discuss how powerful he is, discovering that your opponent is completely immune to non-epic scrying of any sort is in itself a pretty massive suggestion that you might have to level up a bit before you randomly assume what level he is and charge in blindly.

Of course, we were given little suggestion that V had even tried to scry him. V didn't seem to find the experience of having his divination magic blocked to be a familiar one when trying to check in at Azure City.

[ericgrau]

Seriosuly, I think Xykon was a far lower level when the comic was first being written. Nothing even hints at greater power until after the original strips. Even the prequel OoPCs was written afterwards. But if you want to try to force some sense into it, then ya Xykon was holding back b/c OotS wasn't at threat and he was bored.

[Zxo]

It makes sense that Eugene didn't give Roy much information:

in OotPC
Eugene wanted Julia to fulfill the oath because he thought only a mage stands a chance against a mage. He told the story to Roy only so that Roy could repeat it to Julia later, when she grows up (she was too young at that time). Eugene probably believed Julia would do her own research.

SoD

Eugene didn't know much himself. He adventured for some time looking for Xykon, but his party was so incompetent that they were finding other villains who just happened to have a similar name. I do not think Eugene didn't know anything because all who met Xykon were dead, he simply didn't put much effort info looking. He didn't take the Oath seriously, he didn't realize what it meant for his afterlife and forgot about it very fast after falling in love. When Right-Eye offers him a lot of information about Xykon, Eugene tells him to bug off. What would you expect Eugene to know?

[Liwen]

This comes from the commentaries of Dungeon Crawling fools : At the moment the Order and Xykon had their first battle, Rich had already figured most of the plot about the gates, Miko, the arc of Azure City and all that stuff. It was even implied he had planned as far ahead as in the middle of the 'party is split' story arc. His problem at this point was : He wanted to introduce the plot of the gates, he wanted to order to do something else than chase Xykon, but he had already established that Roy wouldn't do anything else than go after Xykon until he was defeated. So he gave Roy and the party the victory by the use of a conveniently situated epic level booby trap.

As to why Xykon, the MitD and Redcloak didn't used the best of their abilities during the fight to neutralize the Order, already lots of people have justified this with the villains personalities, that Xykon was toying with them for fun, etc... But really the main factor there was : The plot needed to move on, and it did from that point on.

[HotAndCold]

I don't have Origin at all; it's Xykon who considered his foe an archmage: 434 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) (and apparently Roy knew it too, since that's how he was identified).

Edit: Anyway, the point is, Fyron was powerful, Roy knew it, so he should have known Xykon was also powerful and/or really skilled.

The thing is, Xykon didn't defeat Fyron through his magical skill, and Roy knew that. Fyron won the magical fight, and easily, at that. Xykon won by resorting to a dirty trick, and I'm sure Roy would've been completely prepared to deny Xykon the chance to surrender if he tried that again. Had Xykon been at that same exact skill level, it's entirely possible that he would've been a feasible, if tough, opponent for a party of the OotS's level.

Roy failed to take a lot of things into account, but Fyron wasn't one of them. (And lord knows that assuming he knows more about what's going on than he actually does is something Roy does a lot of.)

[Herald Alberich]

Indeed, thank you. I concede my points and my doubts are assuaged, both in "in-universe" and "meta" senses. The Giant did a good job of making his plot-required illogical fight make sense.

[Lvl45DM!]

I have the answer!!
cos its the campaign.
Seriously i could make my 1st lvl players fight a tarrasque. If i point them that way they pretty much go. you have a big bad to fight you assume its level appropriate

[Conuly]

And Xykon has Cloister.

He didn't until he killed Dorukan, though.

[derfenrirwolv]

Seriously i could make my 1st lvl players fight a tarrasque. If i point them that way they pretty much go. you have a big bad to fight you assume its level appropriate

One of the rules i always tell my players is that not everything is level appropriate. Sometimes they ARE supposed to run away. And sometimes i give them an encounter so easy there's no dice involved, it just boils down to " Do you leave the bandits dead, alive, or polymorphed?"

[Elfey]

When Xykon killed Roy he was pretty straight up that he'd let Roy go if he didn't annoy him too much so Roy could go level and he'd have some more fun. Xykon finds the white hats to be entertainment and although not wanting them to win, will see how far they can get. It's not till you actually become a threat will he go all out. He know's he's not going to die easy either.

[SadisticFishing]

When Xykon killed Roy he was pretty straight up that he'd let Roy go if he didn't annoy him too much so Roy could go level and he'd have some more fun. Xykon finds the white hats to be entertainment and although not wanting them to win, will see how far they can get. It's not till you actually become a threat will he go all out. He know's he's not going to die easy either.

This. This is incredibly in character for Xykon.