Girard and Belkar

[ThePhantasm]

I think I know how Belkar could cheat death.

The Oracle sees the future, right? However, that doesn't mean that his interpretation of what he sees is correct. What if Gerard for some reason (which I admit is not yet apparent) decides to create an illusion of Belkar's death? The illusion would make it seem like Belkar was dead, only to have him return in the nick of time to help out the order.

I'm not saying that this is likely or that this is what the Giant is going to do, but I think it would be an interesting twist...

[Typo fixed in title]

[Berserk Monk]

The Oracle made and hinted at his death awhile ago, and Belkar and Girard haven't even meet yet. How could he have fooled the Oracle in the first place?

[ThePhantasm]

Well, my thought is that what the Oracle saw in the future would be an illusion. He would look in the future and see what he thought was Belkar's death, but what in reality was Girard's illusion.

[TheBlackShadow]

The Oracle gets all his visions from Tiamat. Could she really be fooled so easily?

[Ladorak]

Would only really work if Belker drops out of the timeline altogether...

[Hardcore]

It is one of the more sensible theories ever posted on this board:) Still, given that Rich put story telling above all Belkar will not be saved by that, unless Rich had it planned from start.

[Skorj]

The Oracle gets all his visions from Tiamat. Could she really be fooled so easily?

Wait, what? I've been firmly in the "Belkar's gonna die" camp, but Tiamat has a reason to hold a grudge against V, and by extension the OOTS. Tiamat might actually be manipulating the Oracle in this case out of spite, or some plan.

But how do we know he gets all his visions from Tiamat?

[factotum]

Wait, what? I've been firmly in the "Belkar's gonna die" camp, but Tiamat has a reason to hold a grudge against V, and by extension the OOTS. Tiamat might actually be manipulating the Oracle in this case out of spite, or some plan.

But how do we know he gets all his visions from Tiamat?

Because she appeared in a massive summoning trance the first time they ever met the Oracle? Also, Tiamat has only had a reason to hold a grudge against the Order since familicide, which happened months after Belkar's death was first prophesied.

[Sewblon]

I don't think The Oracle knows what his visions mean either, if he did he wouldn't have been at home when Belkar showed up to kill him. Your theory is unlikely, but I hope it is correct. What if Girard doesn't intentionally do it at all? Maybe one of his illusions will cause it to appear as though Belkar died purely by chance.
Would only really work if Belker drops out of the timeline altogether...

I don't follow your reasoning. Why couldn't the prophecy have been a huge misunderstanding this entire time?

[Kish]

Well, my thought is that what the Oracle saw in the future would be an illusion. He would look in the future and see what he thought was Belkar's death, but what in reality was Girard's illusion.
And he specified that it would be Belkar's last breath ever why, then? He saw not only Belkar dying, but Belkar not coming back, ever--not from a True Resurrection, not from the cessation of the illusion that made Belkar look dead.

[TVTMaster]

Because she appeared in a massive summoning trance the first time they ever met the Oracle? Also, Tiamat has only had a reason to hold a grudge against the Order since familicide, which happened months after Belkar's death was first prophesied.

Except, since Tiamat is the one seeing the future and telling the Oracle, she'd know what V did anyway. Which makes why she was so surprised and enraged over Familicide a bit odd...

[An Enemy Spy]

Maybe she sees time the way Dr. Manhattan does. Even though she already knows what will happen, she still acts how she would.

[ThePhantasm]

And he specified that it would be Belkar's last breath ever why, then? He saw not only Belkar dying, but Belkar not coming back, ever--not from a True Resurrection, not from the cessation of the illusion that made Belkar look dead.

Kish, that only means that the illusion has to make it seem as if Belkar was totally annihilated, with no hope of resurrection. If the Oracle thought it was impossible for Belkar to be resurrected, logically he would not look through the rest of the future to see if Belkar somehow would return.

[Drider]

Maybe, she knew it was gonna happen, but could'nt stop it(without attracting attention from other gods), and is mad that she lost a lot of her dragons. Knowing its gonna happen does'nt make it any easier to accept...(maybe a little) when you have a family member in extensive care, you know they could die, but if they do, your still sad.

[Kish]

Kish, that only means that the illusion has to make it seem as if Belkar was totally annihilated, with no hope of resurrection. If the Oracle thought it was impossible for Belkar to be resurrected, logically he would not look through the rest of the future to see if Belkar somehow would return.
Well, I suppose it's no worse than "he'll be turned into a vampire, and the bit about not being in the world is a metaphor."

Thinking about exactly why my patience for the arguments that Belkar will survive is as limited as it is...

Maybe some people speculated that Vaarsuvius' prophecy would never come true; I don't remember that, but they would likely have been lost in the more-or-less constant barrage of "those were the words!" every comic Vaarsuvius appeared in anyway. If anyone speculated that Haley would never regain her speech, it was rare and easy to miss. It's generally accepted that Xykon will be near Girard's Gate before Kraagor's Gate. People had different theories about who Belkar would cause the death of and how, but no one seriously argued that all the people Belkar had named would go through the comic without dying. And, the odd one out...Belkar's prophesied death. Which, suddenly, makes the Oracle unreliable in all the different ways any oracle in fiction has ever been unreliable and a dozen ways this Oracle invented, not excluding being a pure charlatan and never mind the prophecies that have come true and the manifest ability to plan for his own death.

I see wishful thinking here.

[ThePhantasm]

That's... an interesting reply Kish. :smallconfused: First, I didn't say that I thought the illusion-theory was likely to happen, I thought it was a possible loophole for Belkar. Second, I didn't say that the Oracle was unreliable. No sinister plot or devious manipulation on the Oracle's part here. Just a clever trick by Girard that would deceive the Oracle. No one says that Roy and V and Durkon are "unreliable" because they can't see the gate that Girard has hidden. I'm upholding the Oracle's reliability AND a chance for Belkar to cheat death.

The fact that none of the other prophecies were challenged by forumites has NOTHING to do with this theory whatsoever. I'm suggesting what could be a possible loophole for this particular prophecy. The accuracy of the other prophecies has little to do with this discussion.

Ok, so I like Belkar a little bit, and I suggested a loophole for him to escape death. Am I in the wrong forum for discussing such a thing? :smallwink:

[SaintRidley]

I think what Kish is getting at is that if the oracle is ever wrong, period, the oracle becomes unreliable by definition.

[Moff Chumley]

I actually think that Girard casting an illusion so powerful as to fool the gods would be a potential out for Belkar. It's incredibly difficult, no doubt, but not impossible. I gotta hand it to Phantasm; this is the first potential theory I've read that makes sense logically and dramatically.

[ThePhantasm]

I think what Kish is getting at is that if the oracle is ever wrong, period, the oracle becomes unreliable by definition.

I think Kish is saying that as well, but I don't think that is necessarily the case. The Oracle would be still reliable in that he would accurately describe what he sees. He would no more be able to tell what was real or not than Roy or Belkar or V or Xykon or anyone else duped by an illusion. It wouldn't mean he was unreliable, it would just mean that he isn't infallible.

[SPoD]

The problem with the OP's theory is that it relies heavily on the idea that the Oracle literally sees visions of the future. As in, visual images rather than knowledge beamed into his brain. This has not been explicitly established, and in fact runs counter to all D&D-style divinations like Commune, Divination, etc. Why the Oracle, who has been directly empowered by his god to aid her people, would have a form of divination that was more susceptible to simple low-level illusions than a 5th level cleric spell, is beyond me.


Except, since Tiamat is the one seeing the future and telling the Oracle, she'd know what V did anyway. Which makes why she was so surprised and enraged over Familicide a bit odd...

There's no evidence she was surprised so much as enraged. Just because Tiamat knew it would happen does not mean that she can afford to not react angrily to the IFCC. Failure to respond appropriately would encourage other fiends to take the same risks with her children.

[ThePhantasm]

The problem with the OP's theory is that it relies heavily on the idea that the Oracle literally sees visions of the future. As in, visual images rather than knowledge beamed into his brain.

Quotes from Mr. Oracle:

"Geez, I can peer into the murky depths of the future, yet I always seem to get interrupted at bath time." 329 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)

"I can look into the future to the point where this particular strip is compiled into a book and just read the translation." 330 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html)

"Grant me the power to see the future..." 331 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)

"The Dragon Queen has blessed me with visions of the future..." 566 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html)

Sounds like literal seeing to me, rather than just a knowledge download.

[Geoffron X]

The problem with the OP's theory is that it relies heavily on the idea that the Oracle literally sees visions of the future. As in, visual images rather than knowledge beamed into his brain. This has not been explicitly established, and in fact runs counter to all D&D-style divinations like Commune, Divination, etc. Why the Oracle, who has been directly empowered by his god to aid her people, would have a form of divination that was more susceptible to simple low-level illusions than a 5th level cleric spell, is beyond me.

Low-level? Girard is an epic level illusionist. If anybody can do it, it's him.

[Kish]

I doubt Girard would go out of his way to preserve Belkar's life, somehow.

[Haven]

I doubt Girard would go out of his way to preserve Belkar's life, somehow.

Or to create an epic, unbreakable illusion of Belkar dying for any other reason. But yeah.

[Morquard]

Belkar is the son of Girard and that halfling girl from the Scribble Order... forgot the name!

So yes, of course he would go out of his way to safe him!

[factotum]

I don't think The Oracle knows what his visions mean either, if he did he wouldn't have been at home when Belkar showed up to kill him.

Unless he knows that he can't change what he sees. Sure, he made a half-hearted attempt to do it with Belkar, but I don't think he ever expected it to work. In addition, he knew that he was going to be resurrected shortly after being killed, so why leave his nice tower and all his belongings just to avoid a few moments' pain and having to regain a level?

In addition, the Oracle clearly gets visions of stuff that are nothing to do with the question asked, or else he wouldn't have known that Roy was making a mistake by not including Azure City in his list of possible places for Xykon to visit next, or that Elan and Roy were running late for family reunions (with Julia and Nale).

[Demented]

I doubt Girard would go out of his way to preserve Belkar's life, somehow.
Preserving Belkar's life and reenacting his death* are entirely different things with entirely different purposes!

*Repeatedly, if you desire.

Though, it doesn't seem likely that the Oracle would not notice Belkar running about after his 'death'. For that matter, there's little reason that a vision of Belkar's death would bring the Oracle to the sight of an epic-level illusion of Belkar's death... Unless it also coincided with the location and time of his real death.

[Querzis]

I don't think The Oracle knows what his visions mean either, if he did he wouldn't have been at home when Belkar showed up to kill him.

...you need to read those strips again. The Oracle knew Belkar was gonna kill him and even made sure that Belkar would regret it (by founding that village to make the Mark go off) and he also made sure he would get resurected right after that.

Most Oracles cant change the future even if they see it. They might try though but an Oracle who can change the future is actually a really bad Oracle since it means one of their vision didnt happen. Sure it didnt happen because they changed it but if they can change it then it means absolutely everyone else can change it too.

Anyway, no. Belkar is gonna die and hes gonna stay dead. But its not because someone die and stay dead that he cant do anything anymore in D&D. Belkar can still come back as a demon or something.

Beside Belkar death is necessary. Before, Roy thought he could control Belkar but he realized when he was dead that it just wasnt true. If Roy woudnt know Belkar was gonna die soon, he would most likely just finally kill him for all his crimes to make sure he doesnt kill innocent gnomes again. In other words, the fact that they know hes gonna die is the only reason why the rest of the Order are still tolerating him. Belkar «fake character development» happened way too late to save him.

[Asta Kask]

And here I was thinking this was a new crack pairing... :smallfrown:

[Kish]

It's probably an old one; have you looked through the crack pairing threads for it?

[ThePhantasm]

Belkar is the son of Girard and that halfling girl from the Scribble Order... forgot the name!

So yes, of course he would go out of his way to safe him!

Anything is possible, albeit improbable. :smallbiggrin:

On a more serious note, I think that whatever occurs concerning Belkar's fate will occur at Girard's gate, no doubt about it. Girard's illusions will be all around. It may be that Belkar will die, but its not impossible that he could somehow be saved by "convincing" Girard to help him (for reasons not immediately apparent).

[Moff Chumley]

I would certainly agree that, chances are, we're going to see some spotlight on the Belkster in the upcoming strips.

[J.J.J-H-Schmidt]

i personally think that belkar will become a death knight, or some sort of bad ass undead... it full fills the prophecy and leaves some potentially cool development for his character... besides, team evil kina has a thing for creating undead... maybe the order willfind a way to use him as a sleeper agent.

despite the low wis, i think that deep down belkar could never truly be dominated... despite what nale thinks!

:belkar: