Nethack

[Setra]

So yeah.. Nethack..

I recently started playing this myself...

My first character lasted about 50 steps before a rock fell from the ceiling and killed me. I recently learned how to prevent this.

The farthest I've made it is about level 6... At this point I've stopped bothering to name my characters, my best attempt was Jimbob the Samurai.

I'm pretty bad at it, it seems, but I will beat it one day(probably months from now)

So anyone else play? Fun stories to share? Tips to offer? Stuff in general?

[Winthur]

I like roguelikes, but unfortunately, I started my journey with ADOM. I'm not going to touch Nethack in a long time because I want to beat ADOM first. The second reason is because I can't get over the fact that there are three (or maybe more) separate commands just to put on your armor, weapons, and the rest of the equipment.

Maybe it's just the force of accustomization, but I'm just more used to ADOM. :smallwink:

[Vitruviansquid]

I'm not a big fan of Nethack because there are a lot of situations in it that just boil down to "do you know this obscure fact about the game?"

If you enjoy roguelikes, I would heartily recommend you try Dungeon Crawl. :smallcool:

[Setra]

This is actually the first Roguelike I've ever played... I do enjoy it though, but I probably won't try any others til I beat it.. or at least get far enough to say I've done SOMETHING (Like.. killed Medusa.. or something)

[The Dark Fiddler]

So yeah.. Nethack..

I recently started playing this myself...

My first character lasted about 50 steps before a rock fell from the ceiling and killed me. I recently learned how to prevent this.

The farthest I've made it is about level 6... At this point I've stopped bothering to name my characters, my best attempt was Jimbob the Samurai.

I'm pretty bad at it, it seems, but I will beat it one day(probably months from now)

So anyone else play? Fun stories to share? Tips to offer? Stuff in general?

My first person lost by accidentally leaving the dungeon. <.<

My second guy got food poisoning from the rotten corpse of a freshly slain beast. :smallconfused:

My next guy was just killed. I forget how.

Then my next gal fell down a trap door and got killed by a guard captain.

I'm going to give it another try later, without playing as a Samurai.

[Winthur]

My first person lost by accidentally leaving the dungeon. <.<

My second guy got food poisoning from the rotten corpse of a freshly slain beast. :smallconfused:

My next guy was just killed. I forget how.

Then my next gal fell down a trap door and got killed by a guard captain.

I'm going to give it another try later, without playing as a Samurai.

Hey, Samurai isn't the worst class to start with (you'd be hardcore if you tried Tourist as your first try...), but I'd say you should try to play a Valkyrie or Barbarian for your first few games. Or maybe a Wizard.

[Setra]

Hey, Samurai isn't the worst class to start with (you'd be hardcore if you tried Tourist as your first try...), but I'd say you should try to play a Valkyrie or Barbarian for your first few games. Or maybe a Wizard.
From what I've heard.. Barbarian is the best to start with, at least until you memorize which creatures can be poisonous.

My first person lost by accidentally leaving the dungeon. <.<
I did this my third or so time.. I don't consider it so much losing as.. ah.. what was that quote..

"A strange game, the only winning move is not to play" .. Something like that anyways.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I just played as a Barbarian, and I enjoyed not having to worry about being poisoned from food.

And oddly, my Barbarian came closest to starving out of any of my characters so far. :smalltongue:

[UglyPanda]

When I played this, I died three or four times because I was too lazy to look up the list of commands and thought you could only open doors by kicking them. Nothing spells humiliation like death from kicking a door.

The next seven or eight times, I got lost in the gnome mines. They're a surprisingly violent race.

I did get the hang of stealing things from shops rather quickly. It never did me much good, however.


Sadly, your best hope of beating the game is to look at various fan-sites and wikis and memorize whatever you can. I just didn't have the mental capacity to handle it.

[Raroy]

I used to play this alot. Now, less so.

My level thirteen monk accidently ate the wrong kind of mold. Highest level I go to. Once you get used to the game, you can reliably get passed level ten. Then, there is a whole new ball game requiring a much larger understanding of the game. Any help there?

[Hunter Noventa]

I played a semi-cyberpunk roguelike called MacBOSS years ago. Sadly i cant' seem to find it anywhere today, it was as hard as any of them, but a blast. And hilarious. I remember many a +2/+4 Towel fondly.

[RS14]

Sadly, your best hope of beating the game is to look at various fan-sites and wikis and memorize whatever you can. I just didn't have the mental capacity to handle it.

Sporkhack tries to fix this. It's no harder, nor really any easier; it makes many of the must-have items less critical, though, so is easier to play without spoilers.


Once you get used to the game, you can reliably get passed level ten. Then, there is a whole new ball game requiring a much larger understanding of the game. Any help there?

It's hard to explain. Focus on getting critical bits of gear, and stay away from anything that can hurt you.


http://www.harkavagrant.com/history/bishopsm.png (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=206)

Quite a bit of it is little tricks, bits of knowledge, and the ability to judge when things are about to go pear-shaped. I don't think I've died twice in the same way past level 10 or so, except maybe in ill-considered slugging matches with trolls (don't). It's a bit hard to generalize all that to advice.

[Inhuman Bot]

From what I've heard.. Barbarian is the best to start with, at least until you memorize which creatures can be poisonous.

I did this my third or so time.. I don't consider it so much losing as.. ah.. what was that quote..

"A strange game, the only winning move is not to play" .. Something like that anyways.


I prefer Valkyries, myself. And that's from War Games, I belive.

[nanobot_swarm]

I recommend using explorer mode for a first runthrough (shift+x), lets you experiment and see what works and what doesn't, and get a feel for what's ahead.
And indeed the quote is from Wargames, the WOPR says it after playing tic-tac-toe and seeing the futility of it

[Setra]

I prefer Valkyries, myself.
Valkyrie is supposed to be better if you know which corpses are poisonous... I have no clue which ones are so I use Barby

Edit: I really should stop drinking from fountains... but I can't help it!

[Harr]

The thing with Nethack is that it flat out requires you to read spoilers to have any chance at beating the game or really getting anywhere beyond the beginning-middle phase. As posted above, once you've played a while, you'll be able to reliably get to level 10+ and walk around the dungeon without dying much; but you will simply not progress any further than that until you thoroughly spoiler yourself reading FAQs and guides on what you need to do.

I played Nethack for a good 6 years before realizing this... I don't regret it because it was huge fun, and I never really had "beating" the game as a goal anyway. But it was still a bit of a disappointment to discover that.

This is why today, even with my roguelike roots firmly embedded in NH, I will always recommend either Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup or NPPAngband to people who are just starting out with roguelikes, since they are also awesome games which you actually have a chance of some day beating just through lots of playing plus your own strategies and smarts, without having to break down and read spoilers at any point.


Edit: I really should stop drinking from fountains... but I can't help it!

Perfect example of what I'm talking about: Drinking from fountains is crucial to winning the the game, but only if you do it in the exact right way, which you'll likely not know until you look it up online somewhere.

[RS14]

Perfect example of what I'm talking about: Drinking from fountains is crucial to winning the the game, but only if you do it in the exact right way, which you'll likely not know until you look it up online somewhere.

It's not critical at all. Off the top of my head, the only significant boon that drinking can give you is wishes; also dipped items can become uncursed (or diluted/blanked). I generally only feel that I need to try to get wishes from them if I'm missing some critical piece of kit (e.g. Magic Resistance) pre-castle; This need could probably* be avoided by deliberate level-draining prior to discovering the castle, to prevent the teleporting liches from being generated, if magic resistance is lacking. As for uncursing, this is generally only if I forgot to carry Holy Water or scrolls of remove curse separately from my bag of holding (though I've also used this when I found a bones with a bag of holding early on, and had no other method to uncurse it). As for diluting and blanking of items, cancellation will give you that, as will any of the numerous water sources throughout the game (though fountains are the earliest and most common).

Besides, 9/10ths of fountain strategy is being tough enough to fight Water Demons.

Edit: Now, I am thoroughly spoiled; it's just not required in this case.



Edit:
*I checked the spoilers; as long as you are not more than XL12, Purple Liches should not be generated on the castle. Thus no risk of them teleporting, and you can carefully deal with any of the remaining casters with spells or ranged attacks. Though I suppose a Demi-Lich could be generated with a potion of gain level...

2nd Edit: Actually, after some experimentation, it turns out they can be generated at the castle anyway. I suppose it is considered special for the purposes of monster generation? Level seems to have some effect on it, but not a whole lot.

[Duke of URL]

I've nearly ascended several times, dying once on the plane of Air, twice in the Astral plane, and my biggest "oops" of all was sacrificing the amulet on the wrong altar (I believe the ending text was "left in celestial disgrace").

Spoilers help. A lot. At early levels, though, there are some simple tips to help you survive:


Your starting pet

Fights monsters
Will not willingly step on a cursed item
Will not eat poisonous corpses
Drawbacks: might eat corpses you want, annoying to keep track of (until you find a magic whistle), will eventually be more trouble than it is worth. Oh, and don't accidentally kill it.

At low levels, AC >> spellcasting. Even if you're playing a wizard, armor is important early.
Escape routes. Running away can save your life, literally.
Alternate escape -- scrolls/wands of teleport, wands of digging (aim down with ">"), even invisibility
Engrave (E) "Elbereth" or drop a scroll of scare monster to buy time.
Identify wands by engraving with them
"Identify" scrolls in shops are cheaper than any other kind of scroll (usually less than 30 zorkmids)
Until you are beefed up and know what you're doing, do not drink from or dip into fountains or sinks, do not kick sinks, and stay out of the gnomish mines. When you do go to the mines, do not descend lower than the town until you're really prepared.
When all else fails, "#pray"!!!

[Atelm]

My best games have taken me all the way down into Gehennom but not farther, never have managed to complete the invocation ritual.

An example from one of my older games as Felador the Valkyrie, she got her brains sucked out by a mindflayer earlier to some of the screenshots, so while I did manage to cure the intelligence/wisdom loss with a unicron horn the amnesia stuck (thus some items were unidentified, and therefore the dungeon level she was currently, 2, was mostly blank.).

The "you have died once" part comes from an amulet of life saving. She finally died later in Gehennom, killed by the Wizard of Yendor, I believe.

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss313/Atelm/Felador-Reno.jpg

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss313/Atelm/FeladorGear1.jpg

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss313/Atelm/FeladorGear2.jpg

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss313/Atelm/WizardofYendor.jpg

I've posted these screenshots on another forum as well sometime ago under a different username.



EDIT: Good tips, some additions to them though. :smallsmile:



# Alternate escape -- scrolls/wands of teleport, wands of digging (aim down with ">"), even invisibility


Also, stealth helps as well if you are invisible. As monsters can still "hear" you even if they might not see you.


# Engrave (E) "Elbereth" or drop a scroll of scare monster to buy time.


Remember though that not all monsters respect Elbereth, therefore this does not work against everyone. Also, depending on the object you engrave with the text might erode and lose effectiveness.


# Identify wands by engraving with them


Works with most wands, but not all of them. For example, "wand of secret door opening" identifies only if there are secret doors present. Still, much safer than zapping the wand.



# When all else fails, "#pray"!!!

Though do not pray too much, as this will anger your god. The standard prayer timeout, when you can #pray again safely, is ~300 turns if I remember correctly.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Your pet
[LIST]
Fights monsters
Will not willingly step on a cursed item
Will not eat poisonous corpses
Drawbacks: might eat corpses you want, annoying to keep track of (until you find a magic whistle), will eventually be more trouble than it is worth. Oh, and don't accidentally kill it.


I can't, for the life of me, figure out how to get my pet to do anything. Never follows me, especially when I go down a level.

[Setra]

I can't, for the life of me, figure out how to get my pet to do anything. Never follows me, especially when I go down a level.
Best I can tell, he has to be near you to go down a level.. also I think whistles change his behavior, making him stick closer to you.

[TheLogman]

Pet will only follow you down a level if it's on an adjacent square when you go down.

[Zeful]

Best I can tell, he has to be near you to go down a level.. also I think whistles change his behavior, making him stick closer to you.

Nope, the magic whistle pulls your pet(s) to you from it's position on the same level. However, if you stick close to the animal, and pick up every corpse that it'll eat and then drop it, the animal will begin sticking closer and closer to you and will drop things closer and closer to you.

[RS14]

Nope, the magic whistle pulls your pet(s) to you from it's position on the same level. However, if you stick close to the animal, and pick up every corpse that it'll eat and then drop it, the animal will begin sticking closer and closer to you and will drop things closer and closer to you.

The tin whistle, however, will cause your pet to stick somewhat closer, I believe.

One other helpful piece of advice: Throw Rocks At It (TM). There are lots of creatures that are incredibly slow and difficult to fight in melee. Most j, ;, and P come to mind. Rocks are plentiful, easy to make, and lethal.

Old saying: "Melee combat is the best way to die in NetHack."

[Ponce]

Got really far with a Wizard once, but then Orcus summoned Demogorgon and I died. Not before I managed to kill Asmodeus by slapping him with a dead cockatrice, though.

Anyway, you should play a REAL roguelike. Crawl, for instance.

[factotum]

The tin whistle, however, will cause your pet to stick somewhat closer, I believe.


Pretty sure you believe wrong. As pointed out, a Magic whistle will pull it to you from anywhere in the level...don't think the nonmagic version does anything, though.

[Zeful]

Pretty sure you believe wrong. As pointed out, a Magic whistle will pull it to you from anywhere in the level...don't think the nonmagic version does anything, though.

I thought so to, but a tin whistle will cause any pets you have to be attracted to your location for a few turns as per the the wiki entry on it. (http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Tin_whistle)

[Atelm]

However, if you stick close to the animal, and pick up every corpse that it'll eat and then drop it, the animal will begin sticking closer and closer to you and will drop things closer and closer to you.

Indeed, this is training the pet's Apport (http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Apport). And can be extremely useful way of getting the pet to loot store for you even early without having to worry about alignment penalties or the shopkeeper.

[Duke of URL]

Pretty sure you believe wrong. As pointed out, a Magic whistle will pull it to you from anywhere in the level...don't think the nonmagic version does anything, though.

The nonmagic version should, IIRC, call your pet toward you, but if you're not in line-of-sight, it may not know which way to go.

Of course, it will also alert any other monster in the area to your current position.


*I checked the spoilers; as long as you are not more than XL12, Purple Liches should not be generated on the castle. Thus no risk of them teleporting, and you can carefully deal with any of the remaining casters with spells or ranged attacks. Though I suppose a Demi-Lich could be generated with a potion of gain level...

2nd Edit: Actually, after some experimentation, it turns out they can be generated at the castle anyway. I suppose it is considered special for the purposes of monster generation? Level seems to have some effect on it, but not a whole lot.



Personally, "L" is usually my first target of a blessed scroll of genocide, unless I need to use it in an emergency. (";" is often my second, just because I find them annoying...)

[lostlittlebear]

What I don't get sometimes about NetHack is the sheer randomness of the game. My most recent death came on like level 13, after 13 levels or normalness I suddenly popped into a massive room full of nasties who proceeded to blind, stun and all-round curbstomp my valkyrie and her ice troll pet.

But it is totally addictive, and I'll definitely be trying again

[Duke of URL]

I got whacked on the first level of the gnomish mines recently by a master mind flayer.

I'm guessing a polymorph trap was the actual culprit. Those things are nasty. (You think D&D polymorph is broken? Try Nethack!)

[Atelm]

What I don't get sometimes about NetHack is the sheer randomness of the game. My most recent death came on like level 13, after 13 levels or normalness I suddenly popped into a massive room full of nasties who proceeded to blind, stun and all-round curbstomp my valkyrie and her ice troll pet.

But it is totally addictive, and I'll definitely be trying again

It sounds like you were the victim of the aptly named Big Room (http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Big_Room), which just goes to show that no matter how well you are doing something, more often than not, always goes wrong. :smallamused:

[Bucky]

I'm mostly unspoiled, but have done some extensive testing in Wizard mode (including beating the game). The farthest I've gotten outside debug mode is the level below the castle where I died because I tried to use #pray when it wasn't safe to do so.

I've had a fair run of success recently with spellcasting Monks, to the point of making it to Medusa in two consecutive games only to realize I was missing a way to avoid petrification (both times). One of those two games died attempting the Quest.

So far, the game seems to boil down to a handful of tricks, each of which increases your potential by an order of magnitude:

Pray
Engrave Elbereth
Finding a safe rest area
Mass polypiling, particularly with spellbooks
Stowing your heavy stuff in a bag of holding
And probably a bunch I haven't discovered yet

@Sinks:
I usually use them to identify any cursed/redundant rings in my inventory, then remove my armor and drink from them until they break.

@Fountains: I usually use them for dipping only, usually either in the early game for uncursing or later for magic marker abuse.

@Polymorph:
Extremely useful. Controlled polymorph self is broken, letting you one-shot even boss enemies. Failing that, polymorph other considerably softens some (but not all) of said boss enemies. And (see above spoiler).

@Learning to play:
Write stuff down - the oracle hints, fortune cookies, special effects of corpses, and anything unexpected that happens. Oh, and the buy and sell prices of items (these are slightly variable but let you use shopkeepers to identify certain items).

@Big Room:
If you aren't equipped to handle this level, take one step off the stairs, engrave Elbereth with your fingers, dig through the floor, come back in 5 levels. If you can't, go back up the stairs, filch a pick-axe from the Gnomish Mines, then dig in from the level above and try again from a random spot on the floor. Remember to Elbereth again after making a pit.

[Duke of URL]

It sounds like you were the victim of the aptly named Big Room (http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Big_Room), which just goes to show that no matter how well you are doing something, more often than not, always goes wrong. :smallamused:

For the Big Room, I highly suggest a non-destructible protected square to stand on. That's either a scroll of Scare Monster dropped on the floor or engraving Elbereth with a wand of lightning (blindfold yourself first) or a wand of fire. Stand there and whack away as creatures come close and then flee until you've thinned out the room a bit.

It's a great chance to practice with a weapon you want to gain skill in, too, as you're safe from most monsters, excepting those with ranged attacks.

[Atelm]

For the Big Room, I highly suggest a non-destructible protected square to stand on. That's either a scroll of Scare Monster dropped on the floor or engraving Elbereth with a wand of lightning (blindfold yourself first) or a wand of fire. Stand there and whack away as creatures come close and then flee until you've thinned out the room a bit.

It's a great chance to practice with a weapon you want to gain skill in, too, as you're safe from most monsters, excepting those with ranged attacks.

This is how I've susually done it, engraved it with a wand (usually digging or fire, too much hassle with lightning as there's only so much telepathy can do) and then just thwacking away.

Some games I've been lucky enough to meet a cockatrice relatively soon before the Big Room, and then used it as a convinient weapon together with the protected squire. End result is a nice ring of statues surrounding your position (though one must remember to wear gloves, and not be encumbered to allow for quick stair descend escape).

[Bucky]

I had my first encounter with a demi-lich last night. I survived mostly intact once I figured out what it was doing, but I can see how they would be a pain, especially in multiples.


I ended up teleporting it away, removing all my armor, slugging it out (I was cold-resistant thanks to a corpse) and then de-cursing everything with a wand of cancellation and holy water. Fortunately, I had the critical stuff in a bag and had a wish handy to replace the first armor it destroyed.

[zarakstan]

I love this game so much! I've ascended twice and could do so again if I tried.

A couple tips:

Use as few spoilers as possible, it increases the pleasure of victory when you finally succeed
You have infinite time between turns USE IT!
Try new things out, but don't be stupid
Make smart choices IE Think, let's see that snake poisoned me with its bite, how about not eating it

If anyone would like spoiled help just ask =)

[John Campbell]

I've ascended 24 times (http://www.ci-n.com/~jcampbel/nethack.html), including every class and race and most of the tracked conducts, plus a fair few non-standard conducts. I've always gone artifact-wishless, conflictless, without writing the E-word, and not deliberately polymorphing self or objects (though I poly pets freely). Wishless and genoless are my default behaviour at this point, too.

General advice:
Don't fight groups if you can fight them one at a time.

Don't stand toe-to-toe with anything that you can smack once and back out of range before it hits you back.

Don't melee anything at all if you can kill it at range.

Try to avoid being Burdened; don't be Stressed. Stash things in boxes or chests if you can't carry them around without being encumbered but don't want to leave them out for the monsters to get.

Keep your pet around. Keep several! There's a point where they're not worth the hassle of herding and feeding them all, but up to that point, they're very handy.

Pay attention to what your pets will eat and what they won't.

Explore levels completely, but don't loiter on fully explored levels without a good reason.

Eat your kills. Save rations for emergencies. But stop eating when asked.

Avoid using things unless you're sure they're not cursed. Avoid using stuff you haven't identified. But, "I'll definitely die if I don't," is always a good reason to try using something.

Don't mess with sinks and fountains. They are a trap that will kill you.

AC is life.

Strategic advice:

Valkyrie and Barbarian are the easiest classes in the pre-Quest game where it really matters. Barbarians start with poison resistance, but Valks can Expert daggers for throwing purposes, get Mjollnir (which rocks the early game) as a guaranteed first god-gift, and get that +3 small shield, which stacks nicely with dwarven armor from the Mines.

I typically go down the Mines fork as far as Mine Town first, for the dwarven armor and the temple and shops in Mine Town. Depending how things are looking at Mine Town - especially whether the temple there is co-aligned, and so able to get me a good artifact weapon and/or spellbooks, and whether or not I've found a bag of holding - I may proceed to Mine's End for the luckstone, but more often, I pull out and go down the other fork to hit Sokoban. Then I'll finish the Mines, if I didn't already, and then go down the main dungeon fork the rest of the way. I avoid the Castle until I've got magic resistance, if at all possible. (And, yes, wildly overpowered liches may spawn there.) When I do the Quest depends on class and how my gear's looking, but for most of them, it's as soon as I can get in.


Other minimal-spoiler tips:

Pay attention to what your pet won't willingly step on. Note also that they care more about eating than about avoiding things.

Throwing food at domestic animals (cats, dogs, horses) will make them peaceful, even if it's not food that they'll eat. (Yes, you can make them peaceful by winging tins at them.) And anything they'll eat will make them tame.

Don't try to convert cross-aligned temples' altars. Aligned priests are a nasty fight, and even cross-aligned ones are more useful alive than dead.

Don't stand next to water unless you're damn sure there's nothing in there. That said, don't bother wasting genocides on ; ... just kill 'em with spells, polearms, or thrown rocks. Note that there are non-genocidable creatures that can drown you.

Don't go crazy with genocides, regardless. L is worth wiping out. So are mind flayers and master mind flayers. (Or maybe all of h, if you're not a dwarf.) I sometimes nuke R just because they're really annoying. If you genocide too much stuff, though, it just means that you end up fighting monsters that can't be genocided instead, most of which are right up there near the top of the power scale.

There's nothing a nurse can give you that's worth being naked and unarmed in the dungeon. Just kill them.


And note that almost all of this is general advice that has specific exceptions. The general advice will help you live long enough to figure out the exceptions.

[Lord Seth]

Pay attention to what your pets will eat and what they won't.Alternatively, just look it up online. :smallsmile:


Strategic advice:
Valkyrie and Barbarian are the easiest classes in the pre-Quest game where it really matters. Barbarians start with poison resistance, but Valks can Expert daggers for throwing purposes, get Mjollnir (which rocks the early game) as a guaranteed first god-gift, and get that +3 small shield, which stacks nicely with dwarven armor from the Mines.If you're a lawful Valkyrie, there's also Excalibur. It's not quite as good as Mjollnir in damage (unless the monster is shock resistance, unlikely early on), but it does provide drain resistance and better searching, and it's much easier to get (you'll find far more fountains than altars, and you're guaranteed to get four at the oracle level; you get a guaranteed altar in Minetown but it's only a 1/3 chance of being one you can get Mjollnir with). It really comes down to if I find an altar quickly or not. If not, I'm not holding back, I'm getting Excalibur. Of course, I try to avoid getting more than one artifact weapon so I can get a guaranteed wish later on for an artifact with magic resistance, so for other people it might not be a problem to get Excalibur, then try to get Mjollnir later if they find an altar)

Don't forget that Barbarians get their own guaranteed first sacrifice gift. Cleaver's not as good as Mjollnir either (two-handed and less damage--at least to enemies without shock resistance) but it is pretty good.

[Bucky]

Strategic advice:

Valkyrie and Barbarian are the easiest classes in the pre-Quest game where it really matters. Barbarians start with poison resistance, but Valks can Expert daggers for throwing purposes, get Mjollnir (which rocks the early game) as a guaranteed first god-gift, and get that +3 small shield, which stacks nicely with dwarven armor from the Mines.



I just tried Valkyrie as recommended, and found it disgustingly easy. I ended up completing the quest on my first try, as in never having gone on it with a Valkyrie before, without ever really being in any danger.


Granted, I did cheap-shot the boss with a scroll of stinking cloud, and might have randomly died if an ant hadn't melted the ice and drowned before I started throwing down Elbereths with my wand of fire, but it was still way easy compared to the Wizard and Monk quests.


Postscript: Ended up with a personal high score. Hindsight suggests that no matter what bad experiences I've had in the past, I should still polymorph enemies if they are a lot worse than anything they could get polymorphed into. And now that I know reflection doesn't work against finger of death spells, I should try that first. And this was *after* genociding one species of lich

[TruorTupnm]

Nethack is awesome. I love it, although I also hate it. Very addictive. When I was first introduced to it ---> "Do what? Barbarians and wizards and knights in the same setting as samurai? And why is a tourist in this game? Argh. How am I supposed to know how to do anything in this game? No tutorial? Even with a tutorial, it's impossible!" After playing it for several years (and always forgetting the very useful tip of taking your time), though, it is easily one of my favorite games. I stick with archaeologists, barbarians, and Rangers. Or tourists, when I want a quick game.

I am one of many who is stuck in that early to middle part of the game. I should learn to take my time and stay away from melee. *hangs head in shame* Also, I've never gotten the hang of working with my deities. Usually, I want to eat the corpse, or the altar is too far away. Mayhaps I should just wait until I'm safer before I really start trying to work with my deity. oh well.

[Zeful]

If you find anything like a bag of tricks or a wand of create monster, save them, find an altar and begin sacrificing with them.

As for melee, I found that rogues can get pretty monstrous at it, with the way their skills advance (expert in daggers and two weapon fighting).

[RS14]

I stick with archaeologists, barbarians, and Rangers. Or tourists, when I want a quick game.

I am one of many who is stuck in that early to middle part of the game. I should learn to take my time and stay away from melee. *hangs head in shame* Also, I've never gotten the hang of working with my deities. Usually, I want to eat the corpse, or the altar is too far away. Mayhaps I should just wait until I'm safer before I really start trying to work with my deity. oh well.


Rangers can be awesomely powerful by the later stages of the game. A ranger using a bow is deadly. You can deal, essentially, 2.5x damage, at range, with poison. The trick is to collect a single huge stack of arrows (500-1000) and enchant and poison them all at once. If you're lucky (get a luckstone and sacrifice to your god), these arrows will rarely disappear.

If you're really serious about this, you can divide your huge stack of +7 arrows, and enchant small stacks further, evaporating some arrows, but ending with, for example, 50 blessed poisoned rustproof +8 arrows and 200 blessed poisoned rustproof +7 arrows. Your base damage output will be rivaled only by, perhaps, characters two-weapon-fighting with Grayswandir and a katana, and maybe not even then.

As for your deity, I suggest grabbing wands of create monster to use at alters.

[Lord Seth]

Granted, I did cheap-shot the boss with a scroll of stinking cloud, and might have randomly died if an ant hadn't melted the ice and drowned before I started throwing down Elbereths with my wand of fire, but it was still way easy compared to the Wizard and Monk quests.
Really? I admit I've never done the Wizard or Monk quest, but from what I've been told the Wizard quest is cake. The Monk quest, on the other hand, I'm told is probably the hardest quest in the game.


And now that I know reflection doesn't work against finger of death spells, I should try that first. And this was *after* genociding one species of lichDon't genocide one species of lich. Get a blessed scroll of genocide and genocide the whole lot of them.

For the record though, reflection does work against finger of death, though I believe the only way that can hit you is if you cast it and it bounces back at you. What you're probably thinking of is touch of death, which is stopped by magic resistance.

As for my own NetHack playing, as of late I've been trying to ascend a Samurai (already did Barbarian, Knight, Healer, Tourist, and Valkyrie), but it seems each time I'm making progress something stupid happens and kills me. Like encountering an elf with a wand of death in Sokoban. The Elf With The Wand Of Death may not be as well known as The Gnome With The Wand Of Death, but it's just as annoying.

[Atelm]

The Monk quest, on the other hand, I'm told is probably the hardest quest in the game.



That is mostly because the Quest nemesis, Kaen, (I think that was the name) is extremely difficult to beat with a monk without some rather cheap tricks like a wand of death. He is probably the toughest Quest nemesis in the entire game.

[Lord Seth]

That is mostly because the Quest nemesis, Kaen, (I think that was the name) is extremely difficult to beat with a monk without some rather cheap tricks like a wand of death. He is probably the toughest Quest nemesis in the entire game.That was the main problem from what I've heard. I never got up to him as a Monk, but I know why he's so hard: He hits hard (especially bad for a Monk, who have body armor penalties) and ignores Elbereth.

[Bucky]

Really? I admit I've never done the Wizard or Monk quest, but from what I've been told the Wizard quest is cake. The Monk quest, on the other hand, I'm told is probably the hardest quest in the game.

I've gotten a lot better (i.e. learned a few tricks) since the last time I attempted the Wizard quest. But the main reasons why the Valkyrie quest seemed so easy are:
It provides you with fire-resistance-granting corpses, making the fire ants a non-factor if you have fireproof gear. You can set up the fire giants for one-shot kills via drowning in the first half (delivered by wand of fire). There are a pile of natural chokepoints in the second half. And as I said, I cheap-shotted the boss.



Don't genocide one species of lich. Get a blessed scroll of genocide and genocide the whole lot of them.

I only found one scroll of genocide before that point, and identified it by reading it (I knew it was uncursed and had already identified all the bad scrolls by other means)

[RS14]

That is mostly because the Quest nemesis, Kaen, (I think that was the name) is extremely difficult to beat with a monk without some rather cheap tricks like a wand of death. He is probably the toughest Quest nemesis in the entire game.

Oh yes. Yes. :smallannoyed:

I tried polymorphing into a Black Dragon once. It worked, yes, but narrowly. He teleported up to me and killed me in a single round. I only barely got the chance to polymorph back, and killed him then.

[John Campbell]

Really? I admit I've never done the Wizard or Monk quest, but from what I've been told the Wizard quest is cake. The Monk quest, on the other hand, I'm told is probably the hardest quest in the game.
The Wizard Quest has a couple points in it where it's easy to get mobbed and killed by weight of numbers if you're not keeping a close eye on your HP, Pw, and escape routes. If you're playing like a Wizard rather than like a Valk, it's not hard, though, and, yeah, the Dork One is a pushover. I usually just stab him to death with Magicbane, but I managed once to get into his room very fast, stealthy, and invisible, and get a turn where I had a direct line of fire at him and he hadn't realized yet that I was there, so hadn't picked up the Eye. He doesn't have magic resistance without it. I had finger of death with single-digit failure percentage. I didn't fail.

The Valkyrie Quest is probably harder on an absolute scale than the Wizard Quest, but not much, and Valkyries are still a lot less fragile than Wizards at that point in the game. If you've got a decent AC and Mjollnir (and you're a Valkyrie; there's no reason that you shouldn't have by the time you qualify for the Quest), you can pretty much just use the same VALK SMASH! strategy that's gotten you that far. Surtur's a fairly tough fight, but not a match for a reasonably well kitted-out 14th-level Valkyrie.

The Monk Quest is, by almost any measure, the hardest one in the game. (The Rogue Quest has its points, but it's less hard and more frickin' evil.) Master Kaen is just that badass. I've only beaten him once, with the Monk I ascended. Wand of death doesn't work. If he's picked up the Eyes of the Overworld, he's got complete magic resistance. The method I used was wearing a ring of free action and hitting him with a potion of paralysis, then beating his ass while he was frozen. He still almost got me when he came out of paralysis before I finished him. Fortunately, I had another potion handy.

General advice for Quest Nemeses, demon princes, and similar things that like to teleport away to heal:

Occupy the stairs! They always teleport to the up-stairs. Lure them away from them - stand a couple steps away and wait for them to pop over to attack you - then quickly jump on the stairs and stand there so they can't. Then just beat them down. Controlled teleportation is handy here, too, if you're not on a no-teleport level.

Against the demon princes in particular, there's an even easier way to accomplish this. It's a no-teleport level, so you've got to slog all the way from the down-stairs where the demon prince was waiting to the up-stairs at the other end of the level, enduring his attacks the whole way, right?

Wrong! There's another set of up-stairs handy, right at the bottom of those down-stairs. Adjacent demon princes will follow you up and down stairs. Just smack him 'til he gets off the stairs, then step onto them, wait 'til he moves adjacent, descend, and there's a pretty good chance that you'll be standing on the up-stairs on the level below with the demon prince now unable to teleport away. (If you don't get the stairs on the first try, you can smack him 'til he retreats upstairs, then do it again.)

There's an even easier way to kill Juiblex... as if he weren't easy enough to take out in straight-up combat. I've one-shotted him a couple of times.
Wand of digging while swallowed will free you and reduce the swallower to 1 hp.



Don't genocide one species of lich. Get a blessed scroll of genocide and genocide the whole lot of them.
If you have a cursed or uncursed scroll of genocide, you can turn it into a blessed one before reading. (If you didn't know what it was, why were you reading it?)

If I have only a single genocide (as from a throne, or a scroll I read unidentified), I usually expend it on master mind flayers, on the theory that I can get the Ls with a blessed scroll later (especially if I've just read-identified genocide). I prefer not blessed-genociding h, even when I'm not a dwarf, just because it seems a little unkind to nuke all the innocent dwarves and hobbits and bugbears just because of the mind flayers, so I usually specifically target the two mind flayer types.


For the record though, reflection does work against finger of death, though I believe the only way that can hit you is if you cast it and it bounces back at you. What you're probably thinking of is touch of death, which is stopped by magic resistance.

As for my own NetHack playing, as of late I've been trying to ascend a Samurai (already did Barbarian, Knight, Healer, Tourist, and Valkyrie), but it seems each time I'm making progress something stupid happens and kills me.

I've reached the point where I frequently die before completing Sokoban (goddamn alien soldier ants, usually), but if I get that far, I'll probably complete the Quest (modulo being a Monk), and if I complete the Quest, nothing but my own stupidity will prevent me from ascending. But I still occasionally do ludicrously stupid things.

I think my winner in that category was the ascension-ready Wizard who died in the Valley on a trip back up through after wiping out the demon princes and Vlad. I got hungry while nuking my way through a summon-monsters something had dropped on me, and, hey, there was this baluchitherium I'd just FoDed (I was recharging Power so fast that I was FoDing pretty much anything that wasn't resistant), so I chowed down. Kept having to tell it to keep eating because I was still surrounded by monsters, and, while they weren't actually hurting me significantly, they kept interrupting my meal with their attacks. And in my repeated "e y e y e y...", I didn't notice when I ran out of baluchitherium and the next corpse in the stack was a cockatrice.

The runner-up would have to be the Dwa-Arc who I was going for a racial-gear-only ascension with. Got to Medusa's with my reflection provided by an amulet, and magic resistance from the Orb of Detection, because I couldn't use dragonscale or the other armor-related means of gaining them. I got sick of killing the eels with thrown rocks, because it takes forever, and couldn't use a polearm (my preferred method) because of the conduct, so I took off my amulet of reflection and put on an amulet of magical breathing so I could just melee them with my mattock without significant risk. And after killing all the eels, I went in to face Medusa.

[RS14]

The Monk Quest is, by almost any measure, the hardest one in the game. (The Rogue Quest has its points, but it's less hard and more frickin' evil.) Master Kaen is just that badass. I've only beaten him once, with the Monk I ascended. Wand of death doesn't work. If he's picked up the Eyes of the Overworld, he's got complete magic resistance. The method I used was wearing a ring of free action and hitting him with a potion of paralysis, then beating his ass while he was frozen. He still almost got me when he came out of paralysis before I finished him. Fortunately, I had another potion handy.

I've beaten him effectively by...
casting Drain Life at him. It works, and he very quickly stops hitting so hard.

[Bucky]

but not a match for a reasonably well kitted-out 14th-level Valkyrie.

That explains it. I took the quest at level 16 thanks to fortuitously placed potions of gain level.




General advice for Quest Nemeses, demon princes, and similar things that like to teleport away to heal:

Occupy the stairs! They always teleport to the up-stairs. Lure them away from them - stand a couple steps away and wait for them to pop over to attack you - then quickly jump on the stairs and stand there so they can't. Then just beat them down. Controlled teleportation is handy here, too, if you're not on a no-teleport level.



Check and check. That was the cheap shot.

Scroll of stinking cloud centered on the boss's initial location, then teleport to the stairs.


I wonder if that works on Kaen...

EDIT:Nope, he's resistant.


(If you didn't know what it was, why were you reading it?)
I knew it was an uncursed scroll, and I had already identified all but a couple of the scrolls by other means (so it wouldn't be anything nasty), and one of the unidentified scrolls was something like enchant armor that I wanted to identify so that I could generate more with a blessed magic marker.

[Lord Seth]

Wand of death doesn't work. If he's picked up the Eyes of the Overworld, he's got complete magic resistance. The method I used was wearing a ring of free action and hitting him with a potion of paralysis, then beating his ass while he was frozen. He still almost got me when he came out of paralysis before I finished him. Fortunately, I had another potion handy.It's true the wand of death is halted by the Eyes of the Overworld, but that's only if he picks it up. If you hit him with the wand before he wakes up, he's dead. Of course, if you're not lucky and the wand misses him then that just means you woke him up and have to deal with him.


I got sick of killing the eels with thrown rocks, because it takes forever, and couldn't use a polearm (my preferred method) because of the conduct, so I took off my amulet of reflection and put on an amulet of magical breathing so I could just melee them with my mattock without significant risk. And after killing all the eels, I went in to face Medusa.I have a habit of putting on my blindfold/towel before fighting Medusa even with reflection, so that doesn't happen to me.

[Adeptus]

Maybe it's just the force of accustomization, but I'm just more used to ADOM. :smallwink:

Try Dungeon Crawl. Especially Stone Soup version.
http://crawl-ref.sourceforge.net/

It's the only roguelike with serious ergonomy in the user interface. It's so much fun to play that I can't really be arsed to tackle how hard everything is to do in Nethack. ADOM was fun, but it has it's own problem. The massively increasing corruption is disheartening, and the way the enemies automatically scale to be tougher as you level up is weird.

[Lord Seth]

It might be poor form to bump this just to pretty much brag, but I finally ascended my first Samurai. Next up: Caveman.

[Setra]

It might be poor form to bump this just to pretty much brag, but I finally ascended my first Samurai. Next up: Caveman.
Congratulations

[Bucky]

After a bit more experimentation, I stand by my "Valkyries are disgustingly easy" comment. My top score as a Valkyrie is seven times my top score as any other class. Is being able to tank any two non-boss enemies at the same time normal once you hit level 20?

[DeathQuaker]

I have ascended in Nethack 3 times (Wizard, Archeologist, and Valkyrie). I had a near ascension with a Tourist and a Priest (actually, one I lost-as in the file was corrupted--the game, and the other I screwed up somewhere and didn't feel like backtracking).

Rule #1 in Nethack, the secret secret of all secrets to winning the game (not actually a spoiler, just click and read):


SLOW DOWN.

Seriously. Once you get the hang of how items work, what abilities you have, what dungeon features are, etc. you should be able to get out of most situations by STOPPING, reviewing what you have in your inventory, and playing it smart. Don't plow through hacking and hacking, because whoops! that h you thought was a dwarf king WILL be a mindflayer, and it will eat your brain. Stop, observe, think. Teleportation, digging, jumping, and other things will save your life if you need to get away--and half the time they don't, it's because you forgot you had a wand of teleportation or a scroll of Scare Monster or what have you in your bag. Run away if you have to, and remember your pet is there to protect you--and keep that pet with you if you can at all costs. Be clever with your inventory--maybe that potion of oil will be more handy than you think, and so on.

Of course, sometimes you ARE just SOL. The RNG decided to generate an angry gnome with a Wand of Lightning on an early mine level and you get unlucky. But often, especially once you've gotten in a few levels and have some good equipment on you, all you need to get past a hazard is some patience and remembering to stop and think about all your options.

Other advice, with very minimal spoilers:
- Your pet is your friend, especially if you are a low-level caster and very especially if you are weak low-level class like a Healer.

- Work on developing and using ranged attacks. Nearly everyone is proficient with Daggers; keep a few on hand to chuck at enemies.

- Avoid getting surrounded if at all possible. Learn the terrain, stay with your pet, and as above, use ranged attacks to pick off monsters that are coming at you in large groups.

- DO NOT LET YOURSELF BE BURDENED IF AT ALL POSSIBLE. It will slow you down, and that slowness can get you killed. Sure, sometimes you're just trying to lug a bunch of stuff to a shop or whatever, but if you ARE burdened, be very careful, and be ready to drop your excess baggage if danger comes around the corner.

- Don't be too, too eager to level up. If you go on a killing spree you can end up highish level before you have good equipment, and then in areas where monsters scale to your level, you'll be likely to get killed. This is especially an easy trap with combat based classes like the Valkyrie--they're easy to play early on so it's tempting to kill everything, and then suddenly you'll get whomped by level scaling.

- Learn to ID items. Note that your pet will not pick up cursed items. Try #E-ngraving on the floor with things and see what happens (don't dull your blades though). Take note of how much items cost in shops--a scroll of identify is very cheap; a scroll of genocide quite expensive. Use the #n-ame command to "call" unidentified objects what you think they are-- for a very simple example, if you blow on a whistle and it makes an ordinary high pitched noise, call it "tin." From then on, all the whistles that are tin will be noted as "a whistle called tin." When you find a whistle not called tin, yay! That's a magic whistle. There are other identification tricks too but that's a start.

- Pray certainly, but at all costs do not pester your god. If you find altars to your god, making sacrifices is always a good thing to do. Maybe if your god likes you enough, any altar will do! (*Offer void in Gehennom)

- Important abilities you want to acquire; some you can get through a varied diet and some through certain items, or maybe if you polymorph into the right creature: any and all elemental resistances; magic resistance (several objects offer this, and one of the reasons the Wizard is so easy is that you start with such an objects and can easily get access to another later on); speed; teleport control; water walking (you will NEED this or flight or levitation later in the dungeon). Other abilities like automatic searching and polymorph control can come in very handy.

- Important items you want to acquire: a magic whistle (a very simple but handy tool), a bag of holding, an item that grants reflection. Items that allow you to teleport, and an item that you can reliably engrave with (an athame or a diamond, for example). What follows IS a spoiler about acquiring some of these:


There is a place called Sokoban, which if you get through the boulder-blocked mazes, you will get to a level that ALWAYS has either a bag of holding or an amulet of reflection. Sokoban is fairly easy so it's good to head to that relatively early on. If you go down in the main dungeon, you'll eventually hit around level 7 or so, an Oracle level--you'll know this when you see it. On this or slightly lower, you'll find a dungeon level where there is an up staircase. This staircase takes you to Sokoban. Sokoban is also usually a good source of food and magic items like rings, wands, and scrolls. Hold onto the scrolls you find on the first level of Sokoban--if you screw up on the upper levels, they might help you

- If in doubt, and especially if you don't want to be spoiled, use EXPLORE MODE: When you enter Explore mode, scoring will stop--but you can't die. You can explore and experiment to your heart's desire and not worry too much about the consequences. Yes, it's hard to go into Explore mode if you've got a character you like and you don't want to lose that score, but if you think you're about to get killed or sure the character isn't ascendable, then do it. This is the best way to learn the game, because you don't have to be afraid about being killed by your experimentation. The Devs have indeed thought of everything, so it's worth trying everything you can think of, and Explore mode is the safest way to do it. The game mode is included for a reason--it's not cheating, and especially if you want to avoid spoilers whenever possible, this is really the best way to see how the game works and what is possible in it.

Good luck and happy hacking!

[Bucky]

- DO NOT LET YOURSELF BE BURDENED IF AT ALL POSSIBLE. It will slow you down, and that slowness can get you killed. Sure, sometimes you're just trying to lug a bunch of stuff to a shop or whatever, but if you ARE burdened, be very careful, and be ready to drop your excess baggage if danger comes around the corner.


Question: Is it worth being Burdened for the sake of your Armor Class? Especially where Plate Mail is involved, I find I usually need to make a choice between the two.

(PS:Some of the other stuff in that post should be spoilered. Especially the "Learn to ID items" section.)

[DeathQuaker]

Question: Is it worth being Burdened for the sake of your Armor Class? Especially where Plate Mail is involved, I find I usually need to make a choice between the two.

No, not in my experience. There are many better ways to boost your AC, and it's usually more important to be able to run away. The only time I might wear an item that burdened me was if it was the ONLY thing I had to lower my AC, and in that case I'd get rid of it as soon as I found something else.



(PS:Some of the other stuff in that post should be spoilered. Especially the "Learn to ID items" section.)

I don't consider any of those to be terribly spoilerific. It's common sense that a scroll of identify is cheaper than a scroll of genocide. And "how to ID a tin whistle" is not exactly a gamebreaking secret, nor is the pet thing, which is very common knowledge (and the game itself often throws plenty of hints at you in that direction). And teaching how to use an important feature of the game (the #name function) is not a spoiler either, IMO.

The stuff I would consider secret would be exactly where to find certain things, specific functions of certain items, and more intricate tips and tricks for finding/iding/using items, which I tried to avoid.

However, I apologize if the advice somehow ruined anyone's gameplay experience.